In short
UNESCO World Heritage Sites—what the World Heritage Convention is, how sites get listed, how they’re protected (including “intangible heritage”), and the politics/criticism around tourism and international influence. It also covers “danger list” status, delisting, and real-world examples of preservation and destruction.
Guests
No episode guests. Hosts are Josh Clark and Charles “Chuck” Bryant (Stuff You Should Know).
Key claims
- World Heritage designation doesn’t remove a country’s sovereignty; it creates shared international responsibility to preserve “outstanding universal value.”
- UNESCO protects both physical sites and living traditions; intangible heritage was expanded in 2003.
- The list can be gamed for tourism and political/economic gain; countries can withdraw from UNESCO yet still nominate sites.
- “Danger list” is a step before delisting; countries often work to get sites removed.
Notable examples
- Aswan Dam/relocation of Egyptian temples (1959); World Heritage Convention adopted in 1972.
- Oost-Dunkerke horseback shrimp fishing (Belgium) as intangible heritage; criticized as not “universal value.”
- Bamiyan Valley (Afghanistan) statues destroyed by the Taliban; landmine removal mentioned.
- Everglades, Statue of Liberty, Great Barrier Reef threatened by climate/sea level rise.
- Liverpool Maritime Mercantile City delisted (2021); Arabian Oryx Sanctuary delisted (2007).
- Hagia Sophia (Turkey) controversy in 2020 over changing museum status unilaterally.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding UNESCO and World Heritage
2:55 to 4:00
What UNESCO is and the importance of World Heritage Sites.
“You know, whether it's, as we'll see, like a place or a thing.”
Misunderstandings About Heritage Sites
4:00 to 5:32
Clarifying common misconceptions about sovereignty and heritage sites.
“But what's happened is that the world, essentially everybody who's a member of UNESCO, has agreed to say, like, we want to preserve this in your country.”
The Origins and Goals of UNESCO
5:32 to 7:40
History of UNESCO and its mission post-World War II.
“This all got started post-World War II after the world got together and decided to wreck everything again for the second time in about 30 years.”
Major Initiatives and Funding
7:40 to 8:35
UNESCO's initiatives and funding mechanisms for heritage preservation.
“We've been waiting for this for 14 years.”
The World Heritage List Explained
8:35 to 10:40
How the World Heritage List is created and maintained.
“And there was one other aspect of that 1959 Aswan Dam initiative, I guess.”
Types of UNESCO Heritage Sites
10:40 to 13:20
Distinguishing between cultural and natural heritage sites.
“You have to, you know, deliver reports on like how the property is, the state of the property, any concerns like moving forward, basically kind of how things are going.”
Examples of Heritage Sites
13:20 to 14:01
Notable examples of natural and cultural UNESCO sites.
“and that's one reason why it's protected.”
The Importance of World Heritage Sites
14:01 to 17:08
Learn about the significance of preserving sites that reflect human culture and achievements.
“And these are essentially, you know, human-made environments or structures or places of human occupation where humans did something impressive, important, or it was just part of a larger culture.”
Dark Heritage: Remembering the Past
17:09 to 18:15
Explore how World Heritage Sites can commemorate darker aspects of history.
“They have 46 % compared to Latin and the Caribbean.”
Transitioning and Taking a Break
18:16 to 18:48
A light-hearted moment before transitioning into advertisements.
“But you don't have to just remember the dark stuff.”
Show all 23 chapters
UNESCO's Expanding Recognition
22:17 to 24:41
Learn how UNESCO has expanded its recognition to include oral traditions and contemporary practices.
“All right, so we mentioned early, we're back by the way, that UNESCO would eventually adopt stuff like oral traditions and performing arts and social rituals and practices and things like that.”
Unique Cultural Practices Around the World
24:41 to 26:09
Discover various unique cultural practices that UNESCO aims to protect.
“Just because it's interesting, you know?”
The Danger List and Its Implications
26:09 to 28:00
Understand the UNESCO danger list and the actions taken to protect endangered sites.
“So Chuck, I don't know if you said there's a danger list.”
Preserving Bamiyan Valley
28:00 to 29:15
Discussion on the UNESCO efforts to preserve Bamiyan Valley after the Taliban destruction of Buddha statues.
“They're like, let's take care of these places.”
Threats to World Heritage Sites
29:15 to 31:06
Exploration of various threats to world heritage sites, including armed conflict and climate change.
“Yeah, I think landmines there is a big deal.”
Delisting and Danger Lists
31:06 to 33:06
Overview of the delisting process of world heritage sites and the implications of being placed on danger lists.
“In this case, in Oman, the Arabian Oryx Sanctuary was delisted in 2007.”
Consequences of Delisting
33:06 to 34:07
Discussing the consequences of a site being delisted and the importance of countries maintaining their heritage sites.
“Yeah, you don't want to be on the naughty list.”
Politics and UNESCO
36:06 to 41:24
Discussion on the political dynamics influencing UNESCO and the World Heritage List, including nation-state interests.
“Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on.”
Importance of World Heritage Sites
41:24 to 42:00
Exploring how tourism and economic factors intertwine with the recognition of world heritage sites.
“And, you know, like you said, this is big money.”
The Danger List: Protecting World Heritage Sites
42:00 to 45:36
Learn about the challenges and strategies to preserve endangered UNESCO sites.
“I'm sure they have a robust website with lots of pretty pictures.”
Political Controversy: Hagia Sophia's Status Change
45:36 to 46:18
Discover the implications of Erdogan's decision to convert Hagia Sophia back into a mosque.
“You mentioned the Statue of Liberty, right, as far as some of the big dogs?”
Threats to Iconic Structures: Rising Sea Levels
46:18 to 48:06
Explore how climate change poses a risk to famous landmarks like the Great Barrier Reef.
“It should have been from like Albania to Zaire.”
Cultural Intangible Heritage: Unique Traditions
48:06 to 49:44
Dive into UNESCO's protection of intangible cultural heritages like midwifery and ceviche.
“And in the meantime, I think it's time for listener mail.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Josh Clark:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Guys, we got to talk about your secret late night internet searches. You know, the ones bumpy leg rash, hair loss, itchy bum, trying to figure out your body by endlessly searching for answers. We all do it and it never works. Thankfully, there's Amazon Health AI. It can connect your symptoms with your medical history to offer personalized care 24-7. So call off the search. Amazon Health AI is here. Healthcare just got less painful. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One.
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2:10Josh Clark:Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
2:20Chuck Bryant:Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and this is Stuff You Should Know. And this is a fairly rare edition where we do an episode that we decided to do within the last few episodes. We don't usually turn around that fast. Usually it's like seven to eight years.
2:39Josh Clark:Yeah, this is a quick one. And Julia turned this around for us pretty statty. I just made that up. Sure, but I get it. I think everyone knows what we mean. But we're talking about UNESCO World Heritage Sites. UNESCO standing for, which I never knew, I'm glad I know this now, the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization, whom in 1972 drafted this treaty to preserve world heritage as a whole. You know, whether it's, as we'll see, like a place or a thing. And they even expanded later into like, you know, cultural processes and customs and traditions.
3:23Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And that's where this idea came from. We were doing our episode on contortionism and we found that Mongolia was turned down for getting World Heritage Protection for their contortionist history. Didn't make the cut. They were like, what the H? So we started looking into this and it is pretty interesting. One of the things that apparently is a fairly common misunderstanding is that if you have like a heritage site, like something is identified and labeled a world heritage site, that that is no longer sovereign territory in your country. Could not be wronger. That still belongs to you. But what's happened is that the world, essentially everybody who's a member of UNESCO, has agreed to say, like, we want to preserve this in your country.
4:11Chuck Bryant:It's yours. But really, we're all agreeing that this belongs to humanity because it's so important to human culture, so unique that we need to preserve it. And it takes more than just one country to preserve things like this. So we're all going to get together and take shared responsibility for this important part of human culture.
4:31Josh Clark:Yeah. And also a little bit of protection. Like, you know, you've got something valuable on your shelf there. We're all watching you. Right. As you juggle your way through the room.
4:42Chuck Bryant:You want to leave it in mint condition.
4:44Josh Clark:That's right. There's one quote here that I think kind of nails it is it's things that have outstanding universal value. So it's the universality of it all as far as, you know, needing to cherish and care for these things. And I think it's kind of a kind of a cool deal. I mean, some people might criticize it as a big sort of political thing to get tourist dollars headed your way. But I'm not so cynical. I think it's actually pretty great.
5:11Chuck Bryant:Oh, I do, too. I think it's good, too. I think it's both, though. I think the ideal of it is awesome. I think that in practice lately it's in trouble. The thing is, the idea that it was of outstanding universal value, I get that, again, is an ideal. but in practice that is not always the case and I draw your attention to the Oost-Dunkerke which is horseback shrimp fishing in Belgium and if that sounds obscure to you you're right because only 12 families practice this still that is a protected intangible heritage that is not a universal value although it is super interesting and I'm glad it's protected because why not but I just thought that that was there's a lot of different things that contradict the idea that it's of universal value.
6:00Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. This all got started post-World War II after the world got together and decided to wreck everything again for the second time in about 30 years. And everyone kind of looked up and were like, geez, you know, we lost a lot of museums and churches and monuments and entire cities sometimes or huge portions of cities are just gone. And maybe we need, as a world nation, to get together and sort of start caring for these things a little bit more. So the UN kind of led the brigade on this, and UNESCO was formed in 1945. I think I said that 1972 was when the World Heritage Treaty or whatever came about.
6:46Josh Clark:So UNESCO was around, you know, quite a while before this came around. So starting in 1945 is when UNESCO was formed and they basically started a campaign to to start protecting these places from a few things. It's not always just like war. That is definitely one of them, but also human development and natural disaster.
7:07Chuck Bryant:Right, for sure. The first thing, I think they were really kind of focused on learning from, like, archaeology was a big thing they were into for a while. But it really started to take the shape that we understand it today. In 1959, when Egypt went to UNESCO and said, hey, man, like, we want to build this dam. It's really important that we have a reservoir of water. But when we build the dam, there's a lot of like really old, like Egyptian, pharaonic, Arab dynastic monuments that are going to be underwater. So can you help us figure this out? And UNESCO said, this is it. We've been waiting for this for 14 years.
7:46Josh Clark:Yeah. They said, we need to raise some money. So they got about$80 million together and said, all right, let's move these two temples specifically to higher ground. So they moved, they disassembled these temples, moved them about 650 feet, which was higher and out of harm's way. And that sort of, like you said, that just sort of started this idea of like, wait a minute, we can get together and make great things happen and protect great places. And that kind of continued through the 60s until 1972 on November 16th at their 17th General Conference when they adopted the convention concerning the protection of world cultural and natural heritage, which culminated the center of all that is basically this world heritage list.
8:34Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And there was one other aspect of that 1959 Aswan Dam initiative, I guess. Dozens of countries like donated to make this happen. Like this was$80 million in 1959 dollars. This is a significant amount of money. Egypt was really the only country that was going to benefit from this. But countries around the world said, no, we want to help take responsibility for this because we think that these are that important. They transcend just Egyptian importance.
9:04Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And that leads to the second part of that, what happened in 1972. There was the heritage list and the heritage fund. And that fund, you know, without money, none of this really matters that much. You know, it takes a lot of dough sometimes to do things like this.
9:20Chuck Bryant:Yeah, for sure. Because like you said, a lot of it's threatened and one of the big things is preservation, protection and restoration. So that World Heritage Convention from 72, it created the World Heritage List. And now here, finally, we have reached like the actual modern incarnation of what UNESCO is largely involved in or at least known for.
9:41Josh Clark:That's right. As far as the nuts and bolts of it all goes, there is the World Heritage Committee, which is 21 member countries at this point that are elected for six-year terms. And they're the ones that are sort of in charge of overseeing all this. The United States has been a member country before and not been a member country, depending on which politician is in the White House. You can probably figure that one out.
10:05Chuck Bryant:Well, no, there's some surprising dates in there, if you ask me.
10:09Josh Clark:Yeah, but we're not in there now. I think when did we drop off? 2011. Yeah, but we were back on, then back off again in like 21, right?
10:20Chuck Bryant:2018.
10:22Josh Clark:Is it 2018? Okay. I can't get my years straight.
10:25Chuck Bryant:That's because of COVID.
10:28Josh Clark:So, you know, if you are, they call it hosting, but if you have a World Heritage Site in your country, you have to, you can't just say, give us all the money and don't worry about it after that. You have to provide annual reports. You have to, you know, deliver reports on like how the property is, the state of the property, any concerns like moving forward, basically kind of how things are going. And if you're a member country, you get the whopping sum of$4 million a year from the World Heritage Fund. Right. And that is, I mean, some of that is preservation, but I get the feeling a lot of that is like just sort of functioning and identifying places and promoting your own World Heritage sites.
11:09Chuck Bryant:Yeah, probably paying for docents is a chunk of that, too. Yeah, probably so. But also, if something happens, acute disaster from human or natural causes, you'll get some emergency assistance. And then this is another big one that I think probably really comes in handy. There are experts who work at UNESCO who can train your staff, right? You don't have to figure it. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time and be like, this is an archaeological site. let's figure out how to train you, the staff, to preserve it and explain it and all that stuff. You can send them off to, I guess, New York and have them trained up to do those things.
11:48Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And tourism, it's a big deal. If you're if you get one of your if you are a country when you have a site that you get put on this list, it's a big deal because people, I think, that don't know a ton about this kind of look at it as like a seven wonders of the world list in some ways. and like, oh, here's a place like we got to visit before we die.
12:08Chuck Bryant:Yeah, there's hundreds of wonders of the world as far as the World Heritage List is concerned. Yeah. So originally, Chuck, there were just like physical places and features that were on the World Heritage List called sites. And they were divided essentially into two categories, cultural or natural. And you can kind of generally guess what the criteria was for each. Yeah.
12:35Josh Clark:Like if it's a natural heritage site, that means there's just universal value, maybe scientifically or maybe even just aesthetically. You know, we're talking about the Great Barrier Reef of Australia or Serengeti National Park in Tanzania, stuff like that. And it's, you know, it's about protecting these natural wonders of the world generally. Yeah.
13:00Chuck Bryant:And I mean, we just take for granted that the Serengeti National Park is like amazing. But the reason why specifically it was chosen is because it's one of the best examples of large predator prey interactions. Like you just do not see lions chasing down antelope in Kansas. You don't see it unless the zoo's going crazy. and that's one reason why it's protected. It's basically the main reason why it's protected, but then there's also an intersecting thing too that it's also gorgeous. So this fulfills a couple of things. It's biologically important to science, but it's also aesthetically amazing too.
13:36Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And this goes, you know, every single one of these things, and we're not just going to go through and list a ton of different places, but if you're talking about the Yellowstone National Park or the Galapagos Islands, or like I mentioned, the Great Barrier Reef, These all seem like pretty obvious inclusions.
13:51Chuck Bryant:For sure. And they were probably included pretty early on in the list's existence.
13:56Josh Clark:Oh, geez.
13:57Chuck Bryant:So that's the natural site. There's also the cultural site. And these are essentially, you know, human-made environments or structures or places of human occupation where humans did something impressive, important, or it was just part of a larger culture. For example, there's a crossroads and I think, oh, I don't remember where it was, but it was just a crossroads back in the third century CE. And it was just really important at the time. It doesn't seem all that important now, but it was and you want to preserve it because future generations can learn from it and experience it and appreciate it.
14:39Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And it can also be a building or a sculpture, like the Statue of Liberty is on there under cultural heritage under that. But so is like Venice, Italy. So it can be a whole city that's sort of an ancient, modern, well, maybe not ancient, but a modern wonder, you know.
14:57Chuck Bryant:Right. And then it can be ancient, too. And then also like how the aesthetics and scientific importance intersect in the Serengeti National Park. that can happen in cultural sites too. Like it can be where archaeology and intersects with, you know, humans like making, shaping the natural environment. Like the Cahokia Mountains are on the list. To where like all these different boxes can be checked. And those are, they call the money sites where there's just a bunch of different criteria going on. Yeah.
Read the full transcript
15:35Josh Clark:And when I said not ancient, I meant Venice specifically.
15:38Chuck Bryant:Oh, I see. I see. Have you been to Venice?
15:40Josh Clark:I've never been there. It's a big time on the list, but I also just realized I don't know when all that was engineered.
15:48Chuck Bryant:I wanted to say like the 16th century, but it could be later. Is that ancient?
15:53Josh Clark:That's not ancient.
15:54Chuck Bryant:That's ancient-ish.
15:55Josh Clark:No, I don't even know what ancient means now that I think about it.
15:58Chuck Bryant:But you're going to love it. You will love Venice. Yes, and when you do go there, go to Harry's Bar. It's where the Bellini was invented. Okay, love the Bellini. They save Hemingway's seat, like at the bar. It's preserved. But their martinis are really, really good. They're outrageously expensive just because they know that you'll pay it because you're a tourist. But it's still worth getting.
16:22Josh Clark:Well, maybe I can grow the beer back out and put some weight back on and convince everyone I'm the ghost of Hemingway and take that seat finally.
16:29Chuck Bryant:Well, bring a multi-extra-toed cat with you. Or are they cross-eyed? What is it about those cats? Two tails? Oh, I don't know.
16:36Josh Clark:Are they polydactyl?
16:38Chuck Bryant:I think so. There's some unique feature that the Hemingway cats on Key West all share. Oh, okay. I want to say it's an extra toe. I'm not sure.
16:51Josh Clark:Well, moving on. We'll figure that out. Okay. There are a total of 1 ,248 World Heritage sites right now. The vast amount of those are cultural. I think 78%, 19 % are natural, and 3 % are mixed. And Europe and North America have almost half of them. They have 46 % compared to Latin and the Caribbean. Latin America and Caribbean at 12%. Asia and the Pacific, 25%. The Arab states, 8%. And Africa, 9%. although we should say Africa holds 20 % of all the natural sites, which is pretty impressive and not surprising.
17:27Chuck Bryant:That is cool. I say we take a break, but first I also wanted to point out that not all of these are, you know, just like up with humanity. Like they also preserve some pretty dark stuff too. One good example is the Navy School of Mechanics in Argentina, which has turned into a site of memory, a museum, where they basically preserved the fact that this was a place where people were abducted, tortured, and murdered by dictatorships in Latin America in the 1970s and 80s. And this is a World Heritage Site because it's important to remember people will do this. Like people will vote people like this into office and keep them there.
18:08Chuck Bryant:And those people can turn on their own people and you can be abducted and disappeared and murdered by the state. That happens. That, to me, is like one of the big driving, I guess it drives home the point of the World Heritage List more than some of these others. Right. To remember. Not just pretty things. Right. But you don't have to just remember the dark stuff. You can remember all the stuff. But you can't ignore the dark stuff, I guess, is what I mean.
18:36Josh Clark:Well said. Just like Lord Vader himself.
18:39Chuck Bryant:What do you say? Like, come on over, baby. The dark side's feeling great.
18:43Josh Clark:I think so. That was the line. Should we take that break?
18:47Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I think we should.
18:49Josh Clark:All right, we'll be right back, everybody.
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20:09Josh Clark:Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math & Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. Math & Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance and everywhere in between. This season of Math & Magic, I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesario, financier and public health advocate, Mike Milken. Take-Two Interactive CEO Strauss Zelnick.
20:39Chuck Bryant:If you're unable to take meaningful creative risk and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business.
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21:02Josh Clark:Listen to Math & Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast Money & Wealth with John O 'Brien, I sit down with Tiffany, the budgetnista aliche, to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich.
21:40Josh Clark:That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, This conversation is for you to hear more.
21:57Chuck Bryant:Listen to Money and Wealth with John O 'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
22:17Josh Clark:All right, so we mentioned early, we're back by the way, that UNESCO would eventually adopt stuff like oral traditions and performing arts and social rituals and practices and things like that. That happened in 2003 specifically. And, you know, this was a very valuable ad, I think, like a skill set or a knowledge or just some irreplaceable custom or traditional craft or skill or something that, you know, could be in danger of being lost, you know, if not for stuff like this.
22:49Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and again, it can be 12 families shrimp fishing on horseback in Belgium. I want to see that.
22:56Josh Clark:What does that look like?
22:58Chuck Bryant:It looks like somebody with a horse and a shrimp net on a beach. I saw a picture of it.
23:04Josh Clark:I mean, I kind of figured that, but, you know, I bet the shrimp are good.
23:08Chuck Bryant:But I think this is it's worth preserving, too, because this is important to like these people. It's not saying like, oh, this is what America thinks is cool or this is what, you know, Zimbabwe thinks is cool. Like this is it. This is important to this culture. There's a culture on planet Earth and this is important to them. And we should preserve it just for that very reason. Plus also, really, what is supporting horseback shrimp fishing among 12 families in Belgium really costing the world to support, you know?
23:38Josh Clark:Agreed. One part about being included on this part of the list is that, and I think this is kind of cool, is it can be inherited from the past, but it also is applied to a contemporary setting. And so that means, you know, it can't be the lost art of whatever if it's like truly really no one is even doing this at all anymore. Like you can be D listed and we're going to talk about that in a minute. Not D listed as in D dash, but D E dash.
24:06Chuck Bryant:Oh, you know that site?
24:09Josh Clark:Well, no, wasn't that a TV show?
24:11Chuck Bryant:Oh, I don't know. There's a, there's a really mean like burn blog or there used to be called D listed. That was hilarious, but also really cruel.
24:19Josh Clark:No, I was never on that. But if you are included, that means you, this, this practice or this ritual or custom is passed through generations and communities and very community-based overall. Like it's recognized within that community and outside that community as something of value. Kind of like the shrimp people. Shrimp people.
24:43Chuck Bryant:Just because it's interesting, you know? Yeah. Let's talk about, we dug up some other ones. You want to just kind of throw a few of these out? I found basically all these interesting movies. You probably just pick some.
24:54Josh Clark:Yeah, I'll go with the bagpipes. Bulgarian bagpipe making and bagpipe playing apparently is a very big thing in Bulgaria, passed down through the families for generations. And it used to be like a father to son thing. Now they will teach all genders, which is kind of great. And, you know, it's in social clubs. They teach it in schools. And they're like, we need to protect this. And it is on that list.
25:17Chuck Bryant:It's also, there's some very famous ones, too, that it's not just as obscure as horseback shrimp fishing. artisanal baguette making in France is protected. Turkish coffee is protected. Sauna culture in Finland is protected.
25:31Josh Clark:Yeah, baby.
25:31Chuck Bryant:Gingerbread crafting in Croatia. And then it does get a little more niche. Loin cloth weaving in Cote d 'Ivoire. Human tower creation, they're called castles in Spain, where people just stack up on other people. And then there's also an annual grass mowing competition in Bosnia-Herzegovina. and it is using a scythe. They're not just like riding John Deere tractors or anything like that. And it's exactly what it sounds like. It's a grass mowing competition. That's protected. Also, so is yodeling in Switzerland.
26:07Josh Clark:Yeah, great list.
26:09Chuck Bryant:Thank you. So Chuck, I don't know if you said there's a danger list. Did you mention that? I don't think we have yet.
26:16Josh Clark:No, I talked about being delisted, but before you're delisted, you can be in danger. Yeah.
26:21Chuck Bryant:And you can be in danger from we did kind of talk about you can be in danger from armed conflict, war, from climate change, from like just a complete change of the surrounding area can can get you delisted. And danger is where this is the step before delisting. And essentially, UNESCO steps in and says, hey, we need to do something about this because this site is deteriorating or we need to figure out how to lift the Statue of Liberty 100 feet so that sea level rise doesn't, you know, wash it away. And there's two kinds. There's ascertain danger, which is like, this is going to happen. And then there's potential danger, like, say, stuff coming from climate change or if it's, you know, a civil conflict is starting to heat up and it looks like a civil war is going to break out and there's a heritage site right in the crossfire.
27:15Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And, you know, one good example of something they might do is there are these national parks and I guess they're all national parks in the Democratic Republic of Congo that was, they were all made the danger list between 94 and 97. So they, you know, kind of put up the warning flag and UNESCO came in with their fat bank account. There were some NGOs involved that wanted to get involved and donate some money. And they had a four-year rehabilitation campaign for these parks. And then a second campaign, and this kind of goes to show how the international community comes together. These are all in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
27:57Josh Clark:But in 2004, the second campaign got funded from Belgium and Japan. They're like, let's take care of these places.
28:04Chuck Bryant:Yeah. There's another site, the remains of Bamiyan Valley in Afghanistan is what it's called. It went from not on any World Heritage list immediately to the danger list. The Taliban back in 2001 blew up these two, I think, 10 and 15 story tall cliff carved, I guess, statues or reliefs of Buddha from the sixth century. They were beautiful. And the Taliban blew them up by shooting them with shoulder launched rocket launchers that were probably provided by the CIA back in the 80s when they were fighting the Russians. And this was an enormous thing. Like, people were like, what are you doing? Like, what is the problem here?
28:49Chuck Bryant:Is this part of this kind of ethnic cleansing campaign against the Hazara people who live in the area? And so they're like, I guess UNESCO was like, right, we can't let anything like that happen again. Let's get in here and try to preserve this valley. And it was put on the danger list. And they started a campaign in 2009 to just basically go in there and figure out how to move forward and keep this valley from getting worse off than it was.
29:15Josh Clark:Yeah, I think landmines there is a big deal. So part of their, you know, UNESCO getting involved there is identifying and getting rid of those landmines first and foremost. Yep. Let's see. Everglades National Park, Florida's treasure, that's on there. Yeah. Very sadly on the danger list.
29:32Chuck Bryant:Yeah. There's also like civil conflicts really target stuff or endanger sites like the historic center of Odessa in Ukraine is on the list. Ancient Aleppo in Syria is on the list. it can yeah that's a big it seems like armed conflict in climate change are the two biggest
29:54Josh Clark:threats to world heritage sites yeah i think so uh you know we did talk about being delisted and thankfully that's only happened a few times because if you're deleted from the list uh that means like that means you're probably done as a thing uh and that like there's no point in protecting you anymore because it doesn't exist. And one good example of that is the Liverpool Maritime Mercantile City. It was delisted in 2021. This was the historic docklands of Liverpool, a very big port town, obviously, in England. And they built a stadium there. Everton Stadium was built, and it basically kind of wiped all that out.
30:36Josh Clark:So they were like, well, there's no reason for this being on the list anymore.
30:39Chuck Bryant:Yeah, the Tower of London is not on the danger list, but it's on the pre-danger list for the same reason. The development that's going on in the area threatens to basically take away its natural or historic, I mean, identity. Even just being built around. They're not talking about knocking down the Tower of London, but just building around it can change the built environment enough that UNESCO is like, it's done. Yeah.
31:06Josh Clark:Yeah. Sometimes it's very sad. In this case, in Oman, the Arabian Oryx Sanctuary was delisted in 2007. That had a population of Arabian Oryx antelope. And that, you know, that was decimated so much, that population, such that I believe it fell down to like 65 of them in 2007. And I guess that was, and this was because of poaching, obviously, in habitat destruction, which makes it super sad. But I guess that was low enough to where they were like, all right, you know, no more protection from us.
31:38Chuck Bryant:I know. And that's sad because it seems like that's when they should swoop in and be like, we're going to occupy this area, Oman. We are, this is no longer sovereign Oman.
31:48Josh Clark:Yeah, I mean, I think there are other organizations that do and protect species like that. So hopefully they weren't just sort of left out in the wind.
31:56Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that they were on the danger list first and then they just didn't follow through. But that's that we should say it's not a it's pretty dishonorable for a country to let one of its sites end up on the danger list. It's even worse to have it delisted. So countries tend to work hard to get off of the danger list. And that does actually happen. That happened in 2025 to three different spots. The rainforest of Atanana in Madayaskar, Abu Mena in Egypt, I think that was the crossroads. And then in the old town of Gadamis in Libya, that was the crossroads. It was the crossroads between Africa and the Mediterranean a couple thousand years ago.
32:47Chuck Bryant:But those were all for different various reasons on the danger list. And those countries worked very hard and aggressively to address all of those issues and get them back off of the danger list. So it is possible to get off the danger list and certainly not be delisted. And usually countries who take this stuff seriously will work hard to do that.
33:10Josh Clark:Yeah, you don't want to be on the naughty list. Exactly. Earlier when you said Crossroads, I thought, genuinely thought you were going to say the Mississippi Crossroads where Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil.
33:23Chuck Bryant:Do they have that one Crossroad identified? I don't know. It sure seems like it should be a World Heritage site.
33:31Josh Clark:Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure if they had the actual Crossroads or if it's more of a, not apocryphal, or maybe it is apocryphal.
33:41Chuck Bryant:It could be both.
33:42Josh Clark:Yeah, or ephemeral. Could be all three. Right.
33:47Chuck Bryant:Have we taken our second break? I don't think we have.
33:50Josh Clark:No, let's take our perfect timing. Look at us 30 minutes in.
33:54Chuck Bryant:OK, we'll be right back.
34:06Josh Clark:Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math & Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. Math & Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance and everywhere in between. This season of Math & Magic, I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesario, financier and public health advocate, Mike Milken, Take-Two Interactive CEO, Strauss Zelnick.
34:37Chuck Bryant:If you're unable to take meaningful creative risk and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business.
34:45Josh Clark:Sesame Street CEO Sherry Weston and her own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey.
34:50Chuck Bryant:Making consumers see the value of the human voice and to have that guaranteed human promise behind it really makes it rise to the top.
35:00Josh Clark:Listen to Math & Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast Money & Wealth with John O 'Brien, I sit down with Tiffany, the budgetnista aliche, to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth starting with the mindset shifts too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about like, I'm going to get rich.
35:38Josh Clark:That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O 'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the Eidhart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
36:05Chuck Bryant:I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on. I'm talking to people like Julie K.
36:25Josh Clark:Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again for decades and decades and decades by local law enforcement, by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration.
36:42Chuck Bryant:The Justice Department, through I think we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims.
36:50Josh Clark:Listen to Bleep with Ana Navarro as part of the My Cultura podcast network.
36:55Chuck Bryant:Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
37:13Chuck Bryant:So, Chuck, politics plays a huge part in UNESCO and the World Heritage List. You would probably not be surprised to think because this is a bunch of different nations coming together. And they don't always play super well together. Or when they do play super well together, it's often like gaming the system. And that seems to be what is going on today with UNESCO and the World Heritage Convention, that it's basically been creeping slowly toward a way for countries to make more money through their tourism industry. Get some sites on the World Heritage List. You can go promote it worldwide and bring more people to your country where they're going to spend a bunch of drachmas.
37:56Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. There is a professor of anthropology at Stanford named Lynn Meskel who basically said it's entirely about political and economic gain at this point, just a tool in a much larger arsenal of non, of sorry, of nation state politics. And, you know, the politics of it all can't be ignored these days. It's, you know, there's an interesting thing that happens, you know, in terms of like repatriation. You know, we've talked at some point here and there about like, you know, when there's plundering from wars and things like that. and all of a sudden that countries own things or at least have possession of them and place them in museums.
38:37Josh Clark:They weren't there to begin with, like giving this stuff back. There's big movement for that, but there's also this sort of idea on the other side of like, well, we will take care of that stuff because it is in London or New York City. Right. And we're not going to give it back to you. And that same sort of mentality has been sort of, the same thing is sort of applied to World Heritage sites I think a little bit where indigenous peoples are kind of moved out of the conversation because the attitude is like well you just don't know what's best for your stuff.
39:13Chuck Bryant:Right. It's kind of like if you're a bunch of westerners coming along as tourists to tour this World Heritage site that's of immense cultural value to this local group, if current people from the local group show up, they kind of push out of their way by their face and they're like, out of the way, you're ruining the diorama. This took place a thousand years ago. We don't care what's going on with you today, even though you're directly related to this, I think is that mentality, right?
39:41Josh Clark:Yeah, that's a good way to say it, I think, sadly.
39:44Chuck Bryant:There's also like a whole, I talked about gaming the system. One of the ways that you can game the system is essentially withdraw, like the United States has done twice now, in the 80s and in 2018. you can withdraw from UNESCO and this convention, but you can still nominate sites, including sites in your own country, right? Yeah. So you're getting the best of both worlds where you can get those tourism dollars for getting new World Heritage sites. And you're also not paying dues or you're not spending any of your own money to support other sites. But if you need help with your sites because it's a World Heritage site, you can get other countries' money who are doing the right thing and paying their dues.
40:30Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. Not a cool thing to do, if you ask me. The other thing that they've seen, I think, kind of starting in like the 1990s, it seems like, is when countries are getting together and voting together, like forming packs and voting blocks to either get listed or to block maybe a site from getting on the danger list. Because we said that's kind of like being on the naughty list.
40:56Chuck Bryant:Yeah, exactly. So like Latin American countries will frequently band together and vote in one another's best interests. Or also, I think even countries that aren't members anymore, say the U.S., can basically be like, hey, vote for us for this thing. And, you know, we'll make sure that we up our oil imports from your country by 10 percent or something like that. You know, so I think the more the more juice you have, the more you can get stuff done, even if you're not a member anymore.
41:23Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And, you know, like you said, this is big money. Like if you're included on this list, they will you'll be a part of their advertising campaign. And then you can also create your own around that, you know, touting inclusion, you know?
41:37Chuck Bryant:Yeah, I can tell you that I want to go see the Minoan palatial centers in Greece. Six Bronze Age sites that were part of the late Bronze Age collapse. They're about to be or they were just in 2025 put on. So that's the tourism's working already.
41:54Josh Clark:So you might not have known about that had it not been included, probably?
41:57Chuck Bryant:Yes. I did not know those sites existed. Yeah.
42:01Josh Clark:I'm sure they have a robust website with lots of pretty pictures.
42:05Chuck Bryant:So, yeah, and that's basically like being there in person, right? But it's free.
42:09Josh Clark:Yeah, exactly. Speaking of the danger list, there are a few sites that, you know, you can be removed from the danger list. That's the goal, I guess, before being delisted. And that happened last year. the rainforest in Madagascar, the ones that you were talking about? Yeah, they're not on the danger list. And then that town in Libya, was that where the crossroads was? That's the crossroads. So I guess what do you do? Just raise enough hay or prove that you're actually protecting it in such a way?
42:41Chuck Bryant:Well, I'll give you the example of the crossroads, the old town of Gametes, I believe, is what it is. Gadamese. Gadamese, thank you. Their irrigation techniques were raising the water table and some of the very ancient buildings were in danger of crumbling from the water exposure. So Libya went in and basically came up with different irrigation techniques that they taught to the locals, lowered the water table, and now the site is no longer in jeopardy and it's off of the danger list. All right. It's essentially just a question of the host country having the will to spend a few bucks to remedy the situation.
43:22Chuck Bryant:That's all it is.
43:24Josh Clark:I wonder if one member country has enough places that make that danger list, if there's any sort of, maybe not even official penalty, but like, hey, listen, guys, you need to, you got three on the danger list now. You need to get it together.
43:40Chuck Bryant:It's a really bad look.
43:42Josh Clark:It is a bad look.
43:46Chuck Bryant:Kind of talking about the politics of this, too, there was a really startling turn of events in 2020 where Recep Erdogan, the president of Turkey, unilaterally said, hey, the Hagia Sophia, this part of world heritage, it was a cathedral, then a mosque, and now it's a museum. We're turning it back into a mosque. and UNESCO is like, we didn't talk about this. And Erdogan said, it doesn't matter. We're doing that. And this is like, I mean, this thing was built in the 530s. It's one of the more amazing buildings in the world. And in the 1930s, a court in Turkey said, this is a museum. This is no longer a mosque.
44:28Chuck Bryant:Turkey is secular and that's all there is to it. So it's a museum until Erdogan came along in 2020 and changed it back. Yeah.
44:36Josh Clark:And, you know, unilaterally decided this on his own. and UNESCO was like, hey, not only you shouldn't have done this, but you didn't tell us you were doing this, and you're using this as, like, this is a World Heritage site now. You can't use it for your own political gain. You can't try and curry favor with the Turkish, Islamic Turkish conservatives. And he was like, well, you know, what do you say? It's not a museum anymore, and we're not charging entry fees anymore? Yep. Was that his, like, comeback?
45:09Chuck Bryant:I guess it was a comeback of sorts or a defense or something. He's like, you don't have to pay to get in anymore.
45:15Josh Clark:Yeah, it's pretty weak.
45:17Chuck Bryant:But that was 2020 and absolutely nothing happened. That's the other problem. This is a problem with almost everything that has to do with the U.N. No teeth. Like, what are you going to do? Really? Like, I'm fine. I don't care about peer pressure, you know, the international community being mad at me. That's all it takes. And there's nothing that can be done about it.
45:37Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. Let me see. What else is on the danger list? You mentioned the Statue of Liberty, right, as far as some of the big dogs? Sea level rise. And, of course, the Great Barrier Reef. That's been threatened for a long time as are reefs all over the world. Very, very sad.
45:52Chuck Bryant:Ocean bleaching. Also, the Sydney Opera House is coming close to the danger list because of sea level rise as well.
46:01Josh Clark:Oh, man. It's right there on the water. You've got to protect that thing.
46:03Chuck Bryant:I know, man. I say we go out. I just want to throw out a couple more of these amazing intangible ones that are protected, okay?
46:13Josh Clark:Great.
46:14Chuck Bryant:Midwifery. From Germany to Togo, sometimes this can cross cultures. And midwifery is one of them.
46:21Josh Clark:It should have been from like Albania to Zaire. That's how you got to do those.
46:26Chuck Bryant:That would have been great. I called Tiki horse breeding in Turkmenistan.
46:33Josh Clark:Yeah, I like that one.
46:35Chuck Bryant:Here's a good one. ceviche preparation in Peru.
46:39Josh Clark:I'm all about that.
46:40Chuck Bryant:I am too. You'll also like this one, the Dia de los Muertos in Mexico, the Day of the Dead.
46:46Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. Hey, you know what? Here's a tip, especially for you and me and Emily. If you love that ceviche, you just got to make sure, you got to say no pulpo.
46:57Chuck Bryant:Oh, really?
46:58Josh Clark:Yeah, I think we, you don't need octopus, right?
47:01Chuck Bryant:Oh, is that what that is? No, I definitely do not. They're too intelligent. It's cruel.
47:05Josh Clark:Yeah, we learned that in Mexico City that pulpo was the word. So we're like, oh, okay, so that's what we need to avoid.
47:11Chuck Bryant:So you say, hold the pulpo.
47:13Josh Clark:Yeah, or just get the one without it.
47:16Chuck Bryant:Okay.
47:17Josh Clark:Like, I would never go to another country and say, can you not put this thing in there that you traditionally eat? Like, you can find a ceviche that's probably just fish or shrimp or scallop or whatever.
47:27Chuck Bryant:Oh, really? I feel like I take the Burger King approach to tourism where I was like, I'll have it my way.
47:33Josh Clark:Oh, really?
47:36Josh Clark:You got anything else? I got nothing else. This is a fun one. I know this is something I knew nothing about, and now I feel like I know enough, which is our charge as a show, to talk a little bit about it intelligently around a dinner table.
47:49Chuck Bryant:And to attend UNESCO World Heritage meetings and speak up.
47:52Josh Clark:Yeah, where do they have those? New York?
47:54Chuck Bryant:Yeah, let's go. All right. I'm sure anybody can just walk in. If you want to know more about UNESCO World Heritage, go check out some sites. You can tour the world from your computer, again, for free. And in the meantime, I think it's time for listener mail.
48:12Josh Clark:Yeah, this is from Stephen Cook from Halifax, Nova Scotia. Okay. Who visited the Kowloon Walled City. Oh, cool. Or at least the park. Hey, guys. Visited that Kowloon Walled City park this past December on our first trip to Hong Kong, and it's a delightful spot with sports facilities for nearby residents, some remnants of the original building foundations as a reminder of its past, and the one original building that is now a museum. That's the one we talked about. Yeah. Plus, there's a special exhibit that recreates a streetscape in the community using sets from the 2024 film Twilight of the Warriors, colon, Walled In, which stars Hong Kong action legend Sammo Hung as a local crime boss named Mr.
48:55Josh Clark:Big. I guess when you're this big, they call you Mr. the set recreates a whole block with a barbershop convened store a shoe repair stand and a fish ball making factory with period props and decor a visit is highly recommended and uh steven
49:10Chuck Bryant:included a few photos which are great oh i can't wait to see this because i looked all over for the the um exhibit and i couldn't find any photos of i saw mention of it at some point yeah search search that email buddy and it'll come up thanks steven that was a great one um yeah if you have been to Kowloon, Walt City, let us know. We want to hear from all of you. And if you have anything to say, really, even hi, right, Chuck?
49:35Josh Clark:Hi and hello is a great thing to hear, always.
49:37Chuck Bryant:Yes. You can send it via email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
49:45Josh Clark:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
50:01Josh Clark:Peace to the planet. Charlamagne Tha God here. And listen, we are back. The Black Effect Podcast Festival is back in Atlanta on April 25th at Pullman Yard. Yeah. And the full lineup is nuts. We got the Grit Sinead podcast, Deontay Kyle and Big Ice Cup Cat. We got Club 520 with Jeff Teague and the gang. Don't call me white, girl. Mona will be there. Keep it positive, sweetie, with Crystal Renee. We got reality with the king with Carlos. And yes, Drink Champs will be in the building. Plus, you know, we're going to have a lot of guests. So you need to join us. And we got the Black Effect Marketplace to pitch your podcast and everything you expect from the Black Effect Podcast Festival.
50:40Josh Clark:Tickets are on sale right now. Go get yours at blackeffect.com slash podcast festival. Don't play yourself, okay? Pull up.
50:51Chuck Bryant:Then she says, have you seen a photo of my son? And I'm like, who is this person? Welcome to the Boys and Girls podcast. Arranged marriage is basically a reality show, and you're auditioning for your soulmate. And who's judging? Only your entire family? I sacrificed myself to this ancient tradition, hoping to find love the right way. And instead, I found chaos, comedy, and a lot of cringe. Listen to Boys and Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
51:21Josh Clark:Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and host of the podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans.
51:32Chuck Bryant:I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change.
51:36Josh Clark:We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions, you can have like a strong stance. and then there's your body having its own program. Listen to A Slight Change of Plans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
From the publisher
Humanity’s created a lot of neat things over the eons and starting in the 1940s, the UN created an agency focused on preserving those things for the whole world and future people. But that mission is in danger of becoming only about branding and money.
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