What's Permaculture All About?

24:57That book is just all about chasing that stuff down and figuring it out. So good, Chuck. One day you'll read it, right?

25:02Josh Clark:Of course. So before the break, I promised some design principles and there are, I believe, like 10 of these in our article. And it breaks down like this. And this is talking about a farm, but we have incorporated in this company that's come in is incorporating most of these same principles within a place as small as our backyard. For instance, zones. We have divided our yard up into zones now. And basically, in the case of a farm, it's a little bit different. They divide areas into zones based on the – and all this stuff, it just sort of makes sense. and it's all seems like it would be intuitive and how tuk tuk would have done it so it divides into zones based on like how much attention certain things need on the farm and what does it require out of people in the different areas and so if you think of it as a circle you got your farm in the center so obviously the stuff that needed the most attention would be closest to uh the the center where the people are and then as you go out and out uh the activity decreases, like the human activity, and things are allowed, like maybe trees to grow a little more wildly.

26:18Right, yeah. So like the zone is kind of like ripples in a pond or something, right? They're concentric circles.

26:25Josh Clark:Yeah. Radiating from the center. And I guess the center is the actual farmer, in this case, your house. Yeah. Okay. So that's understandable enough. And then you look into something called sectors. And that's kind of similar, it seems like, but it's actually not. With sectors, again, the center of the whole permaculture land or whatever is the farm where the people live or whatever. And then the sectors radiate outward. So the whole thing is one big circle around the center. But this time it's sliced into like pizza slices, basically. All right. I'm hungry enough. Okay. But with that, so that doesn't mean like you do sectors or zones.

27:12These are two different ways of looking at the land that will overlay one another, right? And I've seen a couple of places that recommend if you're setting up a permaculture farm, you want to spend basically an entire year doing nothing but observing. Don't plant anything. Don't cut anything down. Don't dig a pond. Don't do anything like that. Just observe. Figure out where the sun is at different parts of the year. Where does the wind come from? Where does the water go? Are there pollutants that come onto the property that you need to, you know, manage? Where do the animals, like if there's deer that come in and eat the garden, like where would they be coming from?

27:56And so that's what you base the sectors on. And then that creates kind of like this underlying map beneath the zones. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. And I got that one right?

28:10Josh Clark:Yeah, I think so. Okay. I mean, I'm sure a permaculture expert would say, oh, boys. Right. Relative location is another important part of permaculture. That is basically designing things, and again, in a way that makes sense relative to one another. So the great example that Robert gives is planting a crop downhill from a pond. That way it's downhill. You don't need to install a pump system. The whole idea is sustainability. And so if you can have the stuff you need to water downhill from your water, then you have just created a sustainable environment. Right. And that one is an actual design principle.

28:52Like David Holmgren came up with 12 of them. One of them was called integrate rather than segregate. And that one's definitely part of that. That's right. There's also having single elements with multiple functions, right?

29:05Josh Clark:Yes. So going back to that, like a pond example, a pond also not only serves as a source for irrigation, but it's also a water source for your livestock. And depending on where you put it, it also acts as a barrier between your livestock and the edge of your property. Yeah. So you don't even need a fence. Exactly. Because cows aren't going to swim across a pond. No. Try to find one doing it. They won't do it. They're lazy. Or a hedge. A hedge, a lovely hedge can act as a wind block. Things like that. Right. And it can also, like, produce seeds that your chickens eat. Right? Right. Or shade if you need shade.

29:43Right. And so all that, I mean, that just makes, like, total sense. Of course you want to do that. But when you stop and think about the fact that they don't do this on big modern farms. Like, this stuff is not, that's just wasted area where you could be planting more corn. You know what I mean?

29:58Josh Clark:Yeah, and they don't do—most people don't think about this when they're designing their home backyards either. They want—they just say, this looks pretty, that looks pretty, and it may be laid out in such a way that it's completely unharmonious and working against each other at times. Right. Why is that thing dying? It's so pretty. It's like, well, it's not where it should be. Another permaculture principle that stands in stark opposition to monoculture is having a single thing have just one function. Or have, okay, a bunch of different things serving as fail-safes to one another. See what I'm saying?

30:40Right. So like that pond can also provide water, right? So it's a water reservoir. But you may also have rain barrels on site as well. So you have all these different things serving multiple functions, but also serving backups to the functions that they share with one another. Right. And again, this is the idea that you're doing this if you take the time to diversify. Like this is where the idea that you shouldn't put all of your eggs in one basket, it came from the farm. And this is, like some of these principles are just getting back to that very simple maxim, which is you have to diversify.

31:21And the more you diversify, the better off you're going to be if something befalls, like if an avian flu wipes out your chicken flock. Well, if all you do is raise chickens, you're ruined. Your family's going to starve, you're going to lose all of your money, and the farm's going to be taken from you. If chickens are just one part of a larger, holistic farm you have going on, then you lose your chickens and that's awful, but you still have, you know, you can cut off a cow's foot and chew on that for the winter.

31:49Josh Clark:You know where the chicken and the eggs in the basket comes from, right? Where? Little Bobby Joe going out to get the chicken eggs one morning, taking one basket, he says, Pa, I got them. Don't fret. Then he trips on the way back and breaks all his eggs. Pa says, put all the chicken eggs in one basket. Now we ain't got no eggs. And then Bobby Joe says, well, then Paul, have more kids. We're getting more baskets. That's right. And that happened in December of 1842 in Georgia. That's right. Those were my relatives. That was a great, were they Choctaw? No, no, no. This is from the other side of the family.

32:30The other side, okay.

32:31Josh Clark:Yes. I was going to say. The redneck side. Energy efficiency is a big deal. Using energy efficient designs, whether or not you're straight up using wind power or solar, or you can just simply, like I said, build things in a way where you have natural wind breaks built in or places to allow the wind to come through and spread seed and stuff like that. Right. My favorite dude of all is the biological resources. Let's hear it. So it's just basically using nature to help solve the problems that you have, right? So Mollison, one of the creators of it, what does his first name begin? Bill. Bill Mollison.

33:11He had a saying, you don't have a snail problem, you have a duck deficiency. Which is to say that if— That was a great t-shirt too. It was. For a little while. It was almost outsold gas, grass, or, you know.

33:24Josh Clark:Yeah. No one rides for free. Right. But the premise of it is that if you are overrun with snails, get more ducks. because the ducks are going to eat the snails, and it's fine. It's good to have ducks because they do other stuff too. Like they walk around and poop all over your property. Everywhere. They're fertilizing it as they're doing it, right? So just to kind of take a step back and look at it like, okay, just say like what would nature do? That's a great way to solve your problems through permaculture. Another one is using pigs or chickens to till the ground and to actually rotate where you plant crops every year.

34:05And so this year's pig pen is next year's cropland because you can move the pigs on to another area and they'll turn it all muddy and turn it up and get it ready for planting, just like they did for this year's cropland that you're using now.

34:21Josh Clark:Pretty great. Insects, too. Yeah. Very big thing to bring in the right kinds of plants to attract the right kinds of insects to take care of the wrong kinds of insects. Right. But this raises an issue, though, too. One of the criticisms of permaculture is it's like, well, where are you going to bring in those insects from, right? So, for example, if you order ladybugs online, it can actually be really bad for the ladybugs that live in your area. because if they are lab-raised or farm-raised ladybugs, they very frequently carry a parasite that you're bringing now into your neighborhood and you can wipe out the existing native ladybug population.

35:02So what do you do? Well, the permaculture way would be to say, I need to attract more native ladybugs because I've got aphids on my lemon trees. So how do I do that? Well, you just plant more high-pollinating plants like sunflowers and voila, native ladybugs, parasite-free. Love it.

35:23Josh Clark:I didn't know people bought ladybugs online. Yeah. That's a thing. I know that because I've had aphids before. I looked into it. You said, Doc, I've got aphids in my lemon tree. He said, come here. One in a million shot. Plant succession is another design principle. If you think about how land was before people were messing around with it in a natural scene, things would just sort of grow and develop as nature intended. And fields might be barren and then grow into weeds, and that might eventually grow into plants that may eventually grow into trees. And then, what do you know? You have a forest.

36:07Right. So, Robert makes the case like that's apparently the natural progression of a temperate area. Yeah. That if you leave it alone for long enough, it's going to turn into a forest. I didn't realize that. I guess it makes sense. So this is basically saying, well, how can we do that? If that's the way the area wants to be, how can we accommodate that while also getting food staples from that too? Right. There's also nutrient recycling, which is basically composting. And I was thinking the other day, I don't answer enough when asked what my favorite episode is. Composting is definitely up there.

36:45Oh, yeah? That was a great one.

36:47Josh Clark:All right. If you're digging this episode at all, go listen to composting if you haven't already. It's a good one. Yeah, and finally, diversity. Raising multiple crops, having different kinds of animals. Like we said, we've kind of been beating up on corn. But the idea is to not have, you know, a thousand acres of a thing and have many different things. So, like you said, the benefits there are if something comes along that is an illness to a crop, you're not wiped out completely. Right. You know? So, speaking of wiping out, let's take a break for a second, okay? Are you wiped out? I'm a little wiped.

37:26I need to regenerate here. Okay. Okay. We'll be right back.

37:38Josh Clark:What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

38:15Josh Clark:It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Danielle Robay, host of Bookmarked, the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week, we are talking about a monster. Or maybe the woman who refused to be one. I'm sitting down with Maggie Gyllenhaal to unpack her new film, The Bride.

38:55Josh Clark:And trust me, this isn't your grandmother's Bride of Frankenstein. It's darker, smarter, sexier, a full reimagining of what happens when the monster gets a voice of her own. What I was more interested in was the monstrousness inside of each of us. You can spend your life running from those things, or you can turn around and shake hands with them. If I'm honest about that and I tell my story about monsters really dealing in something truthful and I do it in a way that's pop, that's hot, that's like getting on a roller coaster, will people respond? Listen to Bookmarked, the Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

39:59Okay, we're back.

39:59Josh Clark:I'm feeling restored, Chuck. Good. Well, you took a nap on my shoulder and that always helps. I know. I got a little drool on your sleeve. I'm sorry. No big deal. Okay, so when you're talking about this, like design principles are great and good and they are really interesting to me. I think ecology is incredibly fascinating. but to actually feed people you have to take them into action and do something and people have been trying this to varying degrees of success and more importantly to varying degrees of scientific study I ran across a professor in I believe the UK at a place called Schumacher College her name is Bethan Stagg and she I get the impression Schumacher College is a little crunchy.

40:50Sure. I think they're the fighting granola. A little hippy-dippy? Just a tad. But one of the things they teach is permaculture. And so Beth and Stag, one of the professors there, basically studied this permaculture next to traditional gardening plots that are the same size. Everything's the same, the amount of wind and rain and sun they're getting. The difference is one is cultivated through permaculture methods. The other one's more just like traditional gardening, like go buy fertilizer and stuff like that.

41:25Josh Clark:Who won? It depends on your definition of won. Well, which one was lying dead in a field afterward? The regular gardener or the other person? They both got a couple of good licks in on one another. Ultimately, I think most people would say that the traditional gardening or the normal modern gardening method won. The reason why it won was because for every 100 square meters of land, it yielded 13 kilograms of edible food. Okay. The permaculture one yielded 2.3 kilograms per 100 meters. So far, far, far less food was grown. But there's a couple of things you've got to point out here. There was also far, far, far less time put into the permaculture plot because that's one of the tenets of permaculture is just like plant the stuff and then just forget about it.

42:18You're not ever supposed to mess with it again except to harvest stuff. There's an emphasis on perennials rather than annuals. There's far less inputs that are meant to be made into it. It's just supposed to be like a little engine you build and then start and it just keeps going forever. Yeah. So far less time and far less effort on the permaculture side. So it kind of wins in that respect, right? But then also there was, over this three-year study, there were also at least one year where the weather was really bad. And so the normal modern gardening suffered as a result, whereas the permaculture one, which was more diversified, had about the same yield as the other years.

43:01So they both won. They're all winners. It's like a soccer game. Yeah, and I think the idea, too, is it's not like that's the kind of test that should be carried out over 100 years almost. Yes.

43:13Josh Clark:And the whole point is, though, still that permaculture is not like they're not saying we shall create more yield than any other farm. That's not the whole point. Again, though, it depends on who you talk to. There are definitely permaculture adherents out there who think that anyone who doesn't use permaculture is an idiot who's ruining the planet and this is the way. No, I'm not saying that, but are they saying that they can provide more yield than conventional farming? I think if you backed them into a corner, they would probably hedge that. But I think that when they're amongst themselves, they may, yes.

43:46Okay.

43:48Josh Clark:You guys totally know we can't. No, okay. We just won't talk about it. Shut up, Simon. So there are people doing this to varying degrees all over the world, whether or not it is – if you have a full-scale permaculture farm, then you are almost 100 percent likely to be a permaculture activist or an educator. It's not something you're doing lightly. You may also be someone who's like, well, you know, part of my farm here I'm doing in such a manner. Part of it I'm not. But there are things that you can do even at your own home like a forest garden. Well, that's like what permaculture seems to really be best at is backyard gardening.

44:37Yeah. So tell them about the forest garden because I found this fascinating, man. Yeah.

44:42Josh Clark:I mean, if you have a back lawn that is just a big grass lawn and, you know, during our grass episode, we didn't get preachy. But a lot of people will say, like, that's the worst thing you can do is just to have a huge flat thing of grass. Right. As far as what's good for the earth. And that's a total, I mean, wasn't that, I think I remember we talked about that literally being just like an American creation in the 50s or something? No, it was even older than that. Yeah, but yeah, I'm pretty sure it was pretty American. Yeah. Maybe English. So a forest garden is a food garden that you build or plant.

45:23Josh Clark:You build it out of wood and iron in your backyard that imitates a natural forest. So you're trying to sort of replicate what you might find in that natural setting in your yard. And this is going to, like you said, make things a little easier on you because you're not going to have to rotate crops or till like you normally would. and everything's just sort of working together. And Robert has sort of a four-part example, four layers, if you will, starting with trees, which are going to, obviously the biggest thing in that forest garden, they're going to eat most of that sunlight, but they're also going to let dappled light through, which can be great growing conditions for certain things.

46:07Right. So you're going to grow things like blackberries or leaf lettuce or strawberries, any vines that are shade-loving, that produce food. But the point of this is like the tree isn't just like, well, here's a tree. Isn't that great? It's like the tree also provides stability for the vine to climb up, right? Right. Like you said, it provides shade for these shade-loving plants. And I guess the point, and I didn't really see anywhere, explain why people do this. I know it's like an ancient technique from South America, I believe. Like in the Brazilian rainforest, it's used to great impact. What, the trees?

46:50Yeah, agroforestry basically is what it's called. But I didn't really see what the benefits of it are, especially if it limits you to shade-loving food plants, right? Because there's plenty of food plants out there that don't love shade. Isn't that correct?

47:07Josh Clark:Yeah, well, I guess let me talk about what we're doing. Okay. So this lady came in, and she's a company owner, and she takes a look at our yard, and she's basically, instead of saying, hey, let's plant a tree that will take 20 years to grow to provide whatever shade and then go, she's like, let's look at what you got now. Because Atlanta is an urban forest on its own, as you know, and there are trees everywhere. So we had existing trees and stuff, and she basically just sort of looks at everything, draws up a design, and then comes back to us and said, here's what we're going to do. And she's working mainly with Emily because this was sort of her initiative, and she knew more about it than I did, and Emily is more the gardener in the family.

47:53Way to go, Emily.

47:54Josh Clark:Yeah, but I was on board, you know, and I was sitting in on these meetings going, this sounds great. This sounds great. So she would say, all right, you have shade over here, so why don't we think about this here, like blueberry bushes. this is where you might want to think about putting your herbs. And downwind from there, because of the way the wind blows through your yard, you might want to think about this there. And we can move, like we had certain things that we wanted to keep, like some azaleas and some roses and things. And she was like, we've got to move those because they're not in the right place.

48:23Josh Clark:So we'll put that over here, move this over there. And then before you know it, she's drawn a schematic for a sustainable backyard yard that all works together and, you know, the insects from the one plant are close to where they need to be to help kill insects that affect the other plant. Right. And, you know, I wish I, well, it's probably isn't great to get too wonky over my yard, but it just all works together in harmony. And we're doing it in stages. The main thing, big, big change that we've done, aside from rearranging and planting new things, is we got a cistern, finally. So we have a big, huge, jeez, I don't even know how many gallons.

49:06Josh Clark:I want to say like 500 gallon. No. It's large. Wow. I mean, it's as big as. That's an above ground swimming pool I think you're describing. Is it? Is that too many gallons? 500, that's a lot. I don't know. Let's say this. It is as big as a, it's like half as big as a Volkswagen Beetle. Wow. It's large. So this is under our deck. So it's not an eyesore or anything. All the gutters in the house, all the water that falls onto our roof is fed into the cistern. And then that cistern has pipes that they trenched. And they go all underground throughout the whole yard and just sort of leach water where it needs to be.

49:49Josh Clark:Neat. And then there's also a couple of pumps. We didn't have spigots in our backyard. We still don't. It's been awful. You know, we haven't had a, we've had to run like hundreds of feet of hose every time we wanted to water anything. And it just feels wasteful anyway. And so we didn't have backyard spigots. And now we have these two posts with the little pumps. And it's sort of gravity fed in a way. Like if the cistern is full and you turn that pump on, it'll, water will flow some. But then we have an actual pump installed on the cistern to where we can actually use a sprinkler if we want to.

50:24But the pump is squirrel run by a hamster wheel, right? I wish. And it's located in the chestnut tree, so it is going to attract the squirrels anyway.

50:37Josh Clark:No, sadly, it does run on electricity. I wish it was hooked up to solar, but we're not that far along yet. That's pretty cool, though, man. That's a neat plan you got going on. It is pretty awesome. And guess what? We have a swale. Oh, I was hoping we were going to be able to talk about swales. I love swales. Yeah, Robert didn't include this in his article, but I sent you a thing on swales. And we have a swale, which is to say in the back right corner of our yard now, we have a tiny pond. It's only about five feet across by five feet across, and it is round, and it has like a round berm around it.

51:14Josh Clark:So, you know, it's like a little hill. And a swale, the definition of a swale, it is a level ditch that is dug across whatever site you're in with the purpose of stopping the flow of water in order to make the water slowly filter into the land instead of rushing over it. And the idea there is that most people design their yards so water won't accumulate and it will run, it's graded in such a way that rainwater will just run off of it as quickly as possible. Right. And that's, you know, that's very wasteful. And that's not how the ground, the ground is supposed to accept the water. I know that sounds so hippie.

51:52Josh Clark:Right. But in an ideal situation, the ground accepts the water into it and it's not dry a day later. It is actually feeding the ground. And so this swale now has a runoff from the cistern. So when the cistern gets too full, the water will then run out into the swale and just sort of slowly leach into the ground around it. Or if we get just tons and tons of rain, obviously the swale will collect it and the water will leach into the ground around it. That is very cool. That is swale. It is super swale. But it was an important part. Like when this lady came over, she's like, well, you've got to have a swale.

52:31Yeah.

52:32Josh Clark:All right. She's like, swales are my biggest seller. And right now it's not the most attractive thing in the world, but over time we're planting instead of grass in between everything or even mulch. We're doing ground cover. I can't remember the specific variety, but ground cover or mulch are the two most sustainable ways to treat your yard, period. Yeah, that makes sense because the mulch will break down, right? Yeah. Degrade and become nutrients. Yeah, so it's pretty neat. Like we've got a good scene. It's going to be years in the making. Well, that's another thing, too. I mean, like, you've got to be very patient with this kind of stuff.

53:09Josh Clark:Yeah, but we're in, though. That's great, man. Congratulations. We're not going anywhere. There are, and I'm wondering, you seem to have a pretty realistic approach to permaculture, though. Like, you're not going to save the world with your backyard, it sounds like. But it's certainly not hurting some of the issues that the world is facing, right? No, we're just trying to create our own little sustainable habitat. So there are, we should mention, some criticisms of permaculture, a lot of criticisms of permaculture, we should say. But we've kind of hit on a couple of them, but the big one probably is that it's not rigorously tested scientifically enough.

53:47That it's just kind of taken like, oh yeah, that would work intuitively, and then it's just left at that in a lot of ways. So there are people like Beth and Stagg, who I mentioned, and other people around the world who are starting to apply science to these things to say, this one works, let's keep at it. This one works better if you do it this way, or this one doesn't work at all, don't waste your time. Right. And as long as they're doing that, permaculture deserves any respect it can get, because it really is, again, intuitively, it makes a lot of sense, But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's true in fact, which is why you've got to study that kind of thing.

54:27Josh Clark:Yeah, and the other thing that I saw in the Roberts article that did make sense to me was one of the criticisms was to Mollison himself because he apparently had a stress on bringing in exotic plants. And that goes counter to everything that our lady for her company talked about. She is all about native plants, like only native plants. And Mollison's response was, well, we've already screwed up the earth so bad that we're not trying to preserve ecosystems as they are specifically. We're trying to make them better through management. And it's like, actually, you just contradicted everything you said back in 1978.

55:07And I think that's a pretty good example from what I understand of that guy. He's like, well, this is what I'm saying now, so this is true. Gotcha. You know what I mean? And I've never met him, never heard him speak, anything like that. Just from reading about him, that's the impression that I have. Gotcha. So to the Molson family, sorry if that's not right. You got anything else?

55:29Josh Clark:Got nothing else. You'll have to come over in two years. I'll take you up on that. I don't want you to see it now. I've been waiting for this invitation for 10 years. Well, it's going to be 12 total. 12 total. All right. If you want to know more about permaculture, you can type that word into the search bar, how stuff works. And since I said search bar, it's time for listener mail. I'm going to call this harrowing story from a fashion design intern. Yeah, it's a good one. And I got her permission. Hey guys, listen to internships. Wanted to say thanks for addressing this issue. When I was in college, I went to work or wanted to work in the fashion industry and the internship process was very difficult and exploitive.

56:11Josh Clark:I managed to somehow get an internship without any connections, which felt nearly impossible and worked my first gig for a top designer. And she did not name the designer in a follow-up email. She did, but then said, maybe don't read it. Okay. But it's a top designer. Okay. And not only was the internship unpaid in one of the most expensive cities in the world, but I was also expected to wear an all-black fashionable wardrobe at all times. So I had to find housing in New York, buy all new clothes. Luckily, my parents were able to help me out there, but I hated how prohibitive the whole thing was.

56:48Josh Clark:While I was with that designer, the Condé Nast lawsuits were going on, and I remember people saying the lawsuit was just another example of stereotypical millennial entitlement. That's obviously not the case because, as you mentioned, it's a social issue. Because of my internship, I was able to get more experiences in the fashion industry and eventually a full-time job in New York after I graduated. Everyone I work with now had unpaid fashion internships, and almost everyone I work with is white, upper class, and from a good school. Unpaid internships have led to bigger problems in diversity that I think really have hurt the fashion industry.

57:24Josh Clark:You always hear about how retail and department stores are dying. Well, all the companies are run by old, white, straight dudes, and we lack a variety of perspectives, which prevents innovation. I'm glad I had internships, and I learned a lot, but I think the internship market really needs to change. So thanks again for addressing this. Hope a lot of people listen to your podcast and reevaluate how they do things at their own companies. And that is from Gail. Thanks a lot, Gail. Nice one. Yeah, was that a good one? Great one, actually. If you want to get in touch with us like Gail did, you can tweet to us.

57:56I'm at SYSK Podcast or at JoshMClark. Chuck's at CharlesWChuckBryant on Facebook and at StuffYouShouldKnow on Facebook. I'm on there, too, somewhere. although I'm not sure where, you can send us all an email, including Jerry, J-E-R-I, to stuffpodcast at howstuffworks.com. And in the meantime, hang out with us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

58:23Josh Clark:For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

59:05Josh Clark:Peace to the planet. Plus, you know we're going to have a lot of guests, so you need to join us. And we got the Black Effect Marketplace, the picture podcast, and everything you expect from the Black Effect Podcast Festival. Tickets are on sale right now. Go get yours at blackeffect.com slash podcast festival. Don't play yourself, okay? Pull up.

59:27Josh Clark:What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:00:08Josh Clark:When segregation was a law, one mysterious Black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night. It was like stepping on another world. Was he a businessman? A criminal? A hero? Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. Charlie's Place from Atlas Obscura and visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.