In short
Swiss neutrality—how Switzerland became “actively neutral,” how it stayed neutral through major European conflicts, and how that neutrality shaped its military, diplomacy, humanitarian role, and banking reputation.
Guests
None. The episode is hosted by Josh, Chuck, and Jerry (Stuff You Should Know). They also reference “Livia” and “Ruby” as internal characters in the discussion.
Key claims
- Switzerland’s neutrality began with the 1291 Waldstätte Alliance of largely independent cantons and was reinforced after the 1515 Battle of Marignano and the Protestant Reformation’s internal religious divisions.
- Neutrality became “perpetual” at the 1814 Congress of Vienna; Switzerland joined the UN in 2002 and later became a non-permanent UN Security Council member in 2023.
- Neutrality is constrained by the Hague Convention (1907): no fighting, no supporting belligerents, no hosting foreign bases.
Notable examples
Alabama Claims arbitration in 1872 (Geneva); Peace of Westphalia recognition (1648) via Johann Rudolf Wetzstein; Helvetic Republic imposed by France (1798); Napoleon’s plundering and Swiss troops in Russia (1812); WWII surrounding Axis powers and Swiss defense mobilization; Henry Dunant’s Solferino work leading to the Red Cross and the 1864 Geneva Convention; secret Swiss bank accounts and Nazi gold (Swiss National Bank bought ~$440M; Washington Agreement returned ~12%); Holocaust asset disputes and a 1998 settlement (~$1.25B).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Swiss Neutrality
1:58 to 3:16
Discussion on Switzerland's unique status as a neutral country.
“All right, let's just cut to the chase then.”
Historical Context of Neutrality
3:17 to 4:39
Examination of the historical roots of Swiss neutrality from the Middle Ages.
“And that's just where we're going to leave this because let's get back to talking about Switzerland, which is, like you said, known for many things.”
William Tell and Swiss Resistance
4:40 to 6:10
Overview of William Tell's legendary story and its implications for Swiss identity.
“So here in the United States, everybody, we're taught that William Tell shot the apple off of his kid's head to show off his skills.”
Formation of the Swiss Confederation
6:11 to 7:38
Discussion of the formation of the Swiss Confederation and early alliances.
“But they're independent little municipalities that all together form Switzerland or the Swiss Confederation.”
Military History and Neutrality
7:39 to 9:52
Analysis of Switzerland's military history and the shift towards neutrality.
“they've from time to time served as a very useful buffer which has helped other outside nations support their bid for neutrality, right?”
Consequences of Military Engagements
9:53 to 11:55
Examination of the consequences of military engagements leading to neutrality.
“That's that was the image of Switzerland.”
Religious Divides and Neutrality
11:56 to 14:00
Discussion on how religious divides influenced Switzerland’s decision to remain neutral.
“One was the Protestant Reformation, because different cantons in different parts of the country supported or were Protestant or were Catholic, right?”
History of Swiss Neutrality
14:00 to 20:21
Explore the historical context and events shaping Swiss neutrality.
“I have no idea whether to believe you or not at this point in my life.”
History of Swiss Neutrality
20:22 to 21:24
Explore the historical context and events shaping Swiss neutrality.
“And that is where we're going to take a break, and we'll be right back with more Swiss neutrality right after this.”
History of Swiss Neutrality
21:29 to 21:42
Explore the historical context and events shaping Swiss neutrality.
“check out new episodes of Grown Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.”
Show all 21 chapters
Modern Swiss Military and Neutrality
23:47 to 28:00
Examine Switzerland's contemporary military role and its commitment to neutrality.
“Part of what you said it needs and should have is a military for defense.”
Swiss Military and Neutrality
28:00 to 28:34
Learn about Switzerland's military presence despite its neutrality.
“Which is, you know, it would be foolish not to at this point in world history.”
Origins of Swiss Arbitration
28:34 to 29:52
Discover how Switzerland became a center for international arbitration.
“Where they're like, we will host your your your dealings with one another and we become a center of arbitration for the world, basically.”
Representing Unfriendly Nations
29:52 to 30:46
Explore Switzerland's role in mediating between countries in conflict.
“which are everything from like a meeting place to mediation services for arbitration.”
Swiss Business Ethos
30:46 to 31:56
Understand the Swiss business mentality and its approach to neutrality.
“Oh, I'm sure that there's fees involved.”
Henry Dunant and Humanitarianism
31:56 to 33:26
Learn about Henry Dunant's impact on the Red Cross and humanitarian efforts.
“They're also known for their real push toward humanitarian aid all around the world, especially during times of conflict.”
Legacy of Henry Dunant
33:26 to 35:38
Explore the recognition and legacy of humanitarian work by Dunant.
“If you're like, okay, that's pretty impressive, well, prepare for this one, too.”
A Break to Reflect on Dunant
35:38 to 36:19
A brief interlude reflecting on the contributions of Henry Dunant.
“where someone has done great things, but were sort of lost to history.”
Swiss Banking and Privacy
39:04 to 40:22
Examine the rise of Swiss banking and its reputation for secrecy.
“I dwelled on the life of Henry Dunant, and I feel even better than I did a few minutes ago.”
Challenges to Swiss Banking Secrecy
40:22 to 42:01
Discuss the decline of Swiss banking secrecy and its implications.
“of London or Berlin, but we can become pretty quietly powerful in our own way, especially if we tell everyone that all their business will be super private, if you know what I'm saying.”
Swiss Banking Secrets and Controversies
42:01 to 52:36
Explore the hidden truths about Swiss banking, including its controversial past and Nazi gold.
“to the utter delight of screenwriters everywhere then and to come.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Josh Clark:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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1:06Josh Clark:Guys, we got to talk about your secret late night internet searches. You know, the ones, bumpy leg rash, hair loss, itchy bum. Trying to figure out your body by endlessly searching for answers. We all do it and it never works. Thankfully, there's Amazon Health AI. It can connect your symptoms with your medical history to offer personalized care 24-7. So call off the search. Amazon Health AI is here. Healthcare just got less painful. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
1:48Chuck Bryant:Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too. This is Stuff You Should Know, everybody.
1:56Josh Clark:That's right. We're talking about one of the two things Switzerland is known for.
2:01Chuck Bryant:What? It's not the cheese. Okay, then chocolate?
2:06Josh Clark:Oh, that's true.
2:07Chuck Bryant:Three things. Okay, cuckoo clocks?
2:11Josh Clark:Four things.
2:13Chuck Bryant:Beautiful mountains?
2:15Josh Clark:Five things. Beautiful people. Rosti? Six things, seven things. All right, let's just cut to the chase then. there's a lot to Switzerland, everybody. And this is just one of myriad things we could talk about. And that is Swiss neutrality. And I think this came to mind because of the recent talks between the United States and Iran. And I knew Switzerland had a role to play there. And I'm like, what the heck is up with that country? Did you say that out loud? I think I did. And Ruby was like, what country, Dad?
2:49Chuck Bryant:It's a good idea, Chuck. I had no idea about this, and I'm not sure if I ever would have thought of doing one on this, but it's actually pretty interesting.
2:56Josh Clark:Yeah. And thanks to Livia, I now understand it.
2:59Chuck Bryant:Yeah. And we should say that right before we started recording, Jerry announced that she is the Switzerland of stuff you should know.
3:08Josh Clark:Jerry likes to think she is.
3:11Chuck Bryant:Well, then who would be the Switzerland?
3:13Josh Clark:We have no Switzerland.
3:15Chuck Bryant:OK. Who are you? I don't know. I'm a mix of Turkmenistan and Denmark. Okay. All right. Great. And that's just where we're going to leave this because let's get back to talking about Switzerland, which is, like you said, known for many things. And this neutrality thing, I had no idea, but it is in stark contrast to how Switzerland used to be during the Middle Ages or medieval times, if you're one of those people who goes to medieval times.
3:47Josh Clark:Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we should point out, too, Switzerland is not the only neutral country. I think Livia found 20 to 25 basically neutral countries around the world. But Switzerland, it's a real like when you think of neutral countries, I think most people would say Switzerland because they've taken not just neutrality as a stance, but like a really active neutrality. And like, hey, come and settle your warring disputes here in our friendly confines or your financial disputes in our friendly confines. Yeah.
4:17Chuck Bryant:As a matter of fact, Switzerland is the only country that comes to mind when I think of neutrality. I had honestly no idea that other countries were officially neutral. Yeah. Like Ireland is. Did you know that? No, but I believe it. Okay. Well, at any rate, yes, they are the standard, the gold standard, the Nazi gold standard of neutral countries. What a tease. so like i said the whole thing kind of i think it was officially neutral as of like the 18
4:49Josh Clark:teens right yeah and then 1851 i think when they formerly uh became a country but right but yeah but you promised talk of the middle ages and it is interesting that we can go back to the 13th century to kind of see the beginnings of this yeah apparently this is where william tell comes from too did you know that no i know shamefully little about william tell i was reading
5:15Chuck Bryant:a i think it's swissinfo.ch um they're like the english-speaking outlet for switzerland and this article this guy was writing he's like we all know the story of william tell blah blah blah and i was like actually i don't know anything that you just mentioned yeah agreed he has a heck
5:32Josh Clark:of an overture. That's all I know.
5:33Chuck Bryant:Yeah, apparently. So here in the United States, everybody, we're taught that William Tell shot the apple off of his kid's head to show off his skills. Apparently, he was forced to do that by some evil Austrian overlords who had taken over Switzerland. And William Tell is actually a resistance fighter who helped Switzerland overthrow those Austrian overlords.
5:57Josh Clark:Fantastic.
5:58Chuck Bryant:But he comes out of this time, right? So Switzerland, like you said, until the 1850s or 60s, was a confederation. It's still known as the Swiss Confederation of cantons, which would be like states, provinces, maybe counties. But they're independent little municipalities that all together form Switzerland or the Swiss Confederation. And that's where the whole thing starts. Back in 1291, there was an alliance between three of these cantons. Yeah. Now there's like 25. Uri, Schwitz, Schweiz, maybe? Yeah. And Unterwalden, Walden? Walden, yeah. And, yeah, and they formed the Waldstadt Alliance. Yeah.
6:40Josh Clark:Shtet. Shtet? Waldstätte Alliance, I would say, I think. I don't know if the E's pronouncing it. I love it when you speak German. Well, I know that that gives you a certain thrill, but I think the umlaut would make it Shtet, Shtet, Shtet? Say it again. Say the whole thing. The Waldstead Alliance? Very nice. These were basically free peasants at the time. And they, you know, partially the reason this all goes down is because of their location in the Alps. Kind of isolated from a lot of Europe. And so they were isolated, these free peasants, from a lot of the feudal hierarchies all over Europe. and they were like in a good like geographic position because they were there in those mountain passes with Italy to the south and you know German speaking peoples to the north and so they were there as like hey we're kind of here in the middle so that kind of started the whole thing of like hey everyone wants to get along with them because they needed them yeah they've
7:42Chuck Bryant:they've from time to time served as a very useful buffer which has helped other outside nations support their bid for neutrality, right? And just to be left alone. And at the same time, that isolation, like you said, from time to time, some of their neighbors would break it and try to basically take over Switzerland and would to varying successes from time to time, like I said. But the isolation and the fact that they were mostly independent made Switzerland still to this day that gave them this fiercely independent streak as a nation, that they see themselves as like it's a different thing. They're a separate thing.
8:22Chuck Bryant:They're nothing like a typical nation whatsoever. They're their own thing. And one of the big things, you can almost call it a brand, is their neutrality. That's right.
8:32Josh Clark:And when they formed that Balchstead Alliance, it wasn't the biggest deal because that had always kind of been the deal with them so it was really just renewing these ties that had already been around for a long time um but everyone later on would say oh actually that's kind of when switzerland started coming together as what would later be a country yeah uh and then more cantons came aboard the alliance got a little bigger and started getting referred to as the old swiss confederation not the not the new one that we have now. And that's when they started becoming like a real, um, kind of piece, uh, of the military puzzle that was going on all around them.
9:11Yeah.
9:12Chuck Bryant:I'm very, I'm certain when, when, uh, back in the 13th century, they were confused when people called it the old Swiss Confederation, cause it was present to them.
9:20Josh Clark:They're like, what are you talking about?
9:22Chuck Bryant:So it was around this time that the Swiss actually became, um, militarily mighty. Uh, The Swiss actually were known for their warlike tendencies and their excellent fighting skills, so much so that as they kind of grew and started to take part in European wars during the medieval era and the very, very early modern era, apparently Niccolo Machiavelli referred to them as the New Romans, this conquering group of incredibly well-trained fighters that were willing to take on the world, essentially. That's that was the image of Switzerland. It's like the total opposite of how we view Switzerland. Yeah.
10:03Josh Clark:Yeah, totally. And, you know, they had some pretty decent military upsets leading up to the beginning of the 16th century. And that's when they started to kind of move away from that idea because there were some really big countries and countries getting together and like forming larger alliances around them. And they were, you know, they were still, even though they had some military might, they realized they were probably smallish compared to other places that were popping up around them. Sure. Notably, the Holy Roman Empire, of course, France, Spain and Italy kind of all over the place over there trying to get at least control in the 16th century of the Duchy of Milan.
10:42Josh Clark:And that's when the Swiss came out and they're like, hey, you know, the different cantons had different ideas on who they should support. Right. Which would kind of become a recurring theme of like like who they should have allegiance to and not necessarily agreeing. So maybe remaining neutral was the best path of least resistance, I guess. But in this case at the time, they started out backing France, then switched to the Italians. And then at the Battle of Marignano in 1515, the French kind of kicked their butts, the French and Venetians. and they were like, all right, we lost 10 ,000 infantry people.
11:22Josh Clark:So like maybe we need to really rethink putting our eggs in baskets of other countries.
11:27Chuck Bryant:Yeah, 10 ,000 was half of the entire Swiss military force was killed at this one battle. So yeah, it was a really big deal so much so that they were like, yeah, this whole warlike thing is not really working out all of a sudden. Let's explore the idea of being neutral. And it wasn't just that, but from everything I've seen, that battle was a decisive turning point for the mentality among the Swiss about, you know, taking part in European wars. But there were other things that kind of contributed to that decision. One was the Protestant Reformation, because different cantons in different parts of the country supported or were Protestant or were Catholic, right?
12:09Josh Clark:Yeah. Yeah.
Read the full transcript
12:11Chuck Bryant:And that's a very sticky situation when you're trying to keep these cantons part of a confederation, right? There's no central government that's telling the cantons, no, you can't do this. No, you can't do that. They're a confederation, essentially. So they're all still quite independent, but they're all still also Swiss. So that in and of itself meant like, how can you participate in European wars when half of your cantons want to go to war with one another? You know, and the wars out in the rest of Europe are about the are between Protestants and Catholics. Like you just can't do that. So the Swiss said, you know what, let's just stay neutral.
12:46Chuck Bryant:And this is a good example of how being neutral has literally kept the country together many times over the years. Like where they're like our differences, our differences of opinion are too great right now among the cantons. So we're just going to not have an opinion officially as a country.
13:03Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. Another thing that helped was they got a pretty sweet financial deal out of the end of the conflict with France in 1516. That peace treaty gave them access to French markets. They had, I think internally they were like, I'm not sure if they noticed, but we can do business with France now. and we could already do business with other people. So let's just keep flying under the radar here, financially speaking, because we've got the best of both worlds. So they had no financial incentive to bust up, I almost said bust that move, but that wouldn't be the right term, I don't think.
13:40Chuck Bryant:Bust a move on French markets?
13:42Josh Clark:Yeah, sure.
13:44Chuck Bryant:Okay, yeah. So yes, this is where their business image also started too. Yeah. This is where the three-piece suit was invented in the peace treaty between France and Europe in 1516.
13:58Josh Clark:See, here's a great example. I have no idea whether to believe you or not at this point in my life.
14:03Chuck Bryant:I don't know whether to believe me or not even. All right. At least we're aligned. So this is a, I don't know if you're picking up on this, Chuck. This is a time of frequent wars across Europe. And that's the problem. When you put authoritarian despots in charge with limitless riches, the elites want to compete among themselves because they want to have the biggest castle or I want to have the most people at my command. I want to torture the most people. Right. And they start competing with each other and they send their own people off to war with one another. It's a great lesson today. It was something to learn from.
14:41Chuck Bryant:And it happened a lot during this era.
14:45Josh Clark:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were a lot of threats to kind of break up this neutrality. The Thirty Years' War was a big one in 1618 because, again, there were divided sympathies, I guess, within those cantons because what you talked about, religion for the most part. And if you got involved in that war as Switzerland, that would have kind of torn apart this confederation that they had worked so hard to keep together. Right. And so, again, they were like, hey, let's we got to keep a good thing going here. Let's remain neutral. And in 1646, the Swedes were sort of threatening them. And so they were like, well, we need to at least have an army, though, for national defense.
15:25Josh Clark:Like we can be neutral, but we can't be rubes. So each Canton had like quotas for troops that they had to supply. And that's when they were like kind of formed that army for defense purposes, which still exists today.
15:40Chuck Bryant:So, yeah, they created an army in 1646. And then two years later, a really big thing happened. it's just enormous. I'm really impressed. There is this guy named Johann Rudolf Wetzstein. Yeah.
15:54Josh Clark:Sounds great.
15:55Chuck Bryant:He was the mayor of Basel, right? And the 30 years war came to an end in 1648 through the Peace of Westphalia. And Wetzstein showed up to the Peace of Westphalia treaty negotiations. He said, I'm glad you guys are doing this. This is fantastic. Keep up the good work. Also, I want to talk to everybody about something. Even though I'm just the mayor of Basel, I want to make sure that Switzerland is represented here because we're just neutral. And we think that we should no longer be under the thumb of the Holy Roman Empire. We think that we should have recognition as an independent nation. And also we want to be neutral too.
16:41Chuck Bryant:and he got it passed through. Like he gained recognition from these major powers of Europe that Switzerland was now its own country. Holy Roman Empire. Sorry, you just lost Switzerland.
16:54Josh Clark:Yeah. I mean, that was, I'm not sure how he pulled that off actually at the time, you know?
16:59Chuck Bryant:With a lot of chocolate, I'll tell you that.
17:01Josh Clark:Yeah. And cuckoo clocks.
17:03Chuck Bryant:Mm-hmm.
17:04Josh Clark:So about a hundred years after that, there was another threat to their neutrality. This was 1790s, late 1790s, when the French Revolutionary Republic and Austria and Russia were going at it. And they kind of eat that battle into Switzerland some. And I think after that victory, that was like 1798, close to 1800. The French government created the Helvetic Republic, a sister nation. And that covered a lot of Switzerland.
17:36Chuck Bryant:Yeah, they basically said, oh, we just happened to create this country that just is within the borders of Switzerland. Sorry, Switzerland.
17:43Josh Clark:Some overlap there, guys.
17:45Chuck Bryant:Yeah, they basically turned it into a territory. And this is pretty much par for the course for Napoleon. He really kind of sealed the deal when he sent an army to occupy Switzerland, I guess, to protect his new made up country of Helvetic. I want to say Helvetic is so bad. but he essentially plundered switzerland for the next decade uh in resources and uh humans and actually when he invaded russia in 1812 he brought some swiss troops with him and they did
18:17Josh Clark:not do very well there yeah they sent 9 000 troops and 700 only 700 came home yeah uh you know the the tide finally turned against Napoleon. And so they were like, all right, thank God we got rid of this guy.
18:31Chuck Bryant:Yeah.
18:32Josh Clark:And so after the battle of Leipzig in, I believe 1813, they were like, all right, we're, we're back to being neutral again. We do have our military force, but we're not going to fight anymore. And in fact, in December of 1813, when the Austrian Imperial army was like, all right, we want to march through your country to go to France. They're like, fine, go right ahead. We'll just let you do that.
18:56Chuck Bryant:Yeah, they just turned their backs and whistled. So one other thing happened. There was another guy named Charles Pictet de Rochemont, and also in 1813 during the peace treaty that ended, well, Napoleon's reign, I guess, essentially. He showed up and he said, also, we want to make sure that we're still getting recognized. We're now the Swiss Confederation. And everyone said, do you mean the old Swiss Confederation? and de Rochemont said, no, no, this is brand new. It's a new Swiss confederation. You guys are going to love it. And he was first just the mayor of Geneva, which was actually a city-state, independent city-state, part of a canton now.
19:41Chuck Bryant:And I guess he did such a good job that he ended up representing Switzerland as a whole. And this is where their perpetual neutrality was established at the 1814 Congress of Vienna.
19:53Josh Clark:Yeah, that's right. And that was it. I mean, people generally look back to 1815 as like that's when everything really officially kind of started when they became a unified federal state in 1848 was when the final stamp was stamped.
20:10Chuck Bryant:Right. So now we've reached the point where modern Switzerland is born and it is officially neutral. It's a sovereign nation, but it's still a confederation. Don't forget that.
20:21Josh Clark:That's right. And that is where we're going to take a break, and we'll be right back with more Swiss neutrality right after this.
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22:57Chuck Bryant:I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections. And it's like, OK, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no, at this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that deeply emotionally affected me.
23:22Josh Clark:And I left it on the mic. That's great. Because it served the story. People will say like, oh, my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
23:47Chuck Bryant:So, Chuck, we're in Switzerland now. It's a nice established country. It's lovely. It is very lovely. Part of what you said it needs and should have is a military for defense. And still today it has a military. In fact, I believe this month, the military assembled like 4 ,000 troops along the border to basically just keep any of the ne 'er-do-wells at the G7 summit spilling over because the G7 summit's in France right now.
24:20Josh Clark:That's right.
24:21Chuck Bryant:But their, I guess, military presence dates back, I mean, much further, obviously, but the modern version of it is from like the 19th century, I think.
24:30Josh Clark:yeah and you know they have to abide by uh certain rules that have happened since then like the the hague convention of 1907 if you're a neutral country which i guess there's like 23 or so now that we've learned that uh they can't fight in a war uh they can't support any other country's warring parties they can't send them weapons like most other countries do they can't send money to help out in a war. They can't say, hey, we'll host a base here or your foreign troops can stay here for a little while. So, you know, they have to remain truly neutral under the Hague Convention, which they were, I'm sure they were quite delighted to make it official.
25:12Josh Clark:But they, again, they've maintained that army because they have to have their own defense. And also we should point out that the Swiss Army knife kind of came around in the 19th century, the 1880s. It's like a literal, you know, if you didn't think the Swiss had an army, they had a knife named after them. Yeah. Of course they had an army.
25:33Chuck Bryant:For sure. And it, I mean, it really is the Swiss army knife. They just call it the army knife, I'm guessing in Switzerland, but everyone else is Swiss army knife. Yeah. Like the cake roll.
25:46Josh Clark:God, I forgot about the cake roll. That's another thing.
25:48Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Well, I don't know that they know that Little Debbie is putting their name on its cake rolls. Because I think they would have a problem with that. Yeah, look it up, Switzerland. You're not going to be happy. So World War I was a threat. Obviously, all of Europe was fighting, but I don't believe Switzerland was drawn into it much. World War II was a much greater threat. They had to work much harder to stay neutral and to keep the other countries out. And when Germany occupied France, all of a sudden Switzerland was surrounded by the Axis. And it was a very nervous time. And they managed to amass an army of, I think, 400 ,000 troops in the Alps.
26:38Chuck Bryant:And they let everybody know, we're staying neutral. But if you come here, we're going to beat you badly. And it generally worked. I saw that they were accidentally bombed several times. Um, that other powers basically said, oh, we didn't mean to bomb you. Sorry, but you know, we killed a bunch of your people. Uh, but for the most part, you know, it worked in that they, they were never invaded by anyone.
27:02Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, just because you're neutral doesn't mean that you have like, you're not taking part in anything to do with the war. So they've, as you'll see, you know, we'll talk about a little later, they have a long tradition of, um, receiving refugees, like war refugees. but kind of shamefully, like the U.S. and a lot of other places during in the aftermath or during World War II, they they prevented a lot of Jewish people from from the Holocaust, from finding refuge there. So that's that's one of the sort of dark spots.
27:33Chuck Bryant:Sure. And then still today, if you are a man between ages 18 and 34, you have to enlist in the military. Or if you're a conscientious objector and say, I'm not carrying a gun around, you can also. there's civilian services you can enlist in. And then if you're a woman, you can also do it, but it's voluntary. You're not required to. And I think today they have 150 ,000 active and reserve troops. And just like back in the day, each Canton has to fulfill a quota and they have their own civilian defense forces. That's right.
28:08Josh Clark:Which is, you know, it would be foolish not to at this point in world history.
28:13Chuck Bryant:For sure. So, yeah, there's still a military despite the fact that they're neutral. I feel like we've managed to drive that point home.
28:23Josh Clark:That's the stuff you should know. So this whole idea that we mentioned kind of early on as Switzerland taking an active role in neutrality and not just being like, hey, just leave us alone. Sure. Where they're like, we will host your your your dealings with one another and we become a center of arbitration for the world, basically. That started out basically in like the mid 19th century. The Geneva and Basil Chambers of Commerce said, hey, let's get a system together and let's make this like let's get serious about this and put some structure around what we want to do. And they got their first stab at that, I guess, in 1872 when it was around the Civil War, when And negotiators from the United States and Great Britain went to Geneva and worked out what were called the Alabama claims, which were about losses caused by these British built Confederate ships, one of which was the Alabama.
29:19Josh Clark:During the Civil War, Britain ended up having to pay damages there. And that started the whole system of like saying, hey, Geneva is pretty nice. You guys were pretty chill. And why don't you just come here to settle your disputes in our courtroom? The people's court. And then the bongo job started.
29:39Chuck Bryant:I did not see Alabama coming up in an episode on Swiss neutrality.
29:45Josh Clark:I did not either.
29:46Chuck Bryant:So since then, like you said, they literally wrote the rules on arbitration. And since then, like they have had some pretty high profile arbitration meetings so much so that they eventually worked what are called the good offices, which are everything from like a meeting place to mediation services for arbitration. It's worked into the Swiss federal constitution. So that's a huge part of Switzerland maintaining its neutrality is saying, like, come take advantage of our neutral territory. Like, this is a place where you can meet and work out your differences. Let's all just work out our differences, Guy.
30:29Chuck Bryant:and I saw Chuck one other thing that they do which is really surprising they represent the interests of countries who are not speaking to each other so I think that they represent Iran and Canada so let's say Iran's like we're not even talking to you Canada anymore we're going to get Switzerland to meet with you we're not even going to be in the same room with you they do that for several different countries yeah
30:55Josh Clark:I mean it's they provide a service I wonder what kind of like Do they charge a fee for this?
31:00Chuck Bryant:Oh, I'm sure that there's fees involved. Sure.
31:05Josh Clark:Even if it's just like, you know, the hotels in Geneva are very overpriced.
31:10Chuck Bryant:Dude, I'll bet you they're like, like coffee service at these meetings and conferences are amazing. Yeah.
31:17Josh Clark:I mean, because they got, they got to get something out of it besides neutrality.
31:21Chuck Bryant:Sure. So I, you know, I knew like the Swiss were known for being very businesslike. Like, I did not realize the extent that that is true. I believe that the Swiss mentality is generally like, yes, it's business. We conduct our business appropriately, fairly. Like, we are really good at it. We have good contracts. Like, we are really businesslike. And that that is like, yes, that they are probably getting something for all of the services they're providing because that's business.
31:56Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I bet you're absolutely right. They're also known for their real push toward humanitarian aid all around the world, especially during times of conflict.
32:07Chuck Bryant:Yeah.
32:08Josh Clark:Like no less than the Red Cross, still based in Geneva. And if you look at their symbol, it's the inverse of the Swiss flag. And that's no accident. But that all started out because of a Genevan businessman named Henry Dunant.
32:26Chuck Bryant:St. Henry?
32:28Josh Clark:Yeah, for real. In 1859, he was in Solferino, a town in the north of Italy. He was there for work, and he saw the aftermath of a battle between French and Austria and saw like 40 ,000 dead and wounded soldiers all about him. And it really, really moved him and put a dent in his psyche, I think, because he got personally involved, started helping out locals, started providing medical assistance, dressing wounds, like, you know, literally himself doing this and spoke to French officials. I was like, Hey, you got a bunch of Austrian surgeons who are POWs, like let them out and let them help their own people and let them help your people.
33:09Josh Clark:And it moved him to the point where he kind of dedicated his life to it. He wrote a book called A Memory of Solferino and talked about these experiences and the creation of these committees that would train volunteers, and that's the stuff that would become the first National Red Cross Society.
33:25Chuck Bryant:Yeah. If you're like, okay, that's pretty impressive, well, prepare for this one, too. You've heard of the Geneva Convention of the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
33:36Josh Clark:Oh, yeah.
33:37Chuck Bryant:Well, that was his work. He started arguing and lobbying for some sort of international agreements on how to treat the sick and the wounded and the prisoners of war, and that became the first Geneva Convention in 1864.
33:52Josh Clark:Pretty great. And the YMCA that you know and love. He didn't create the YMCA, but do not really made it a global movement. And the World Alliance of the YMCA is also still in Geneva.
34:05Chuck Bryant:So two things. When I hear YMCA, I obviously think village people. But I also think of this great moment from a Simpsons episode where Lionel Hutz is staying there at the YMCA and he's asleep sitting down with his back up against the wall, his knees pulled up to his chest and his elbows on his knees and his head down, so you can imagine. And I think Bart and Lisa walk up and wake him up and he suddenly comes awake and he brandishes a knife and he says, don't touch my stuff. He was staying at the YMCA. That was his experience there.
34:39Josh Clark:That's pretty good. I love it. Oh man, Lionel Hutz was the best.
34:43Chuck Bryant:Yes, he was. So if you're like, okay, still, Dunant's impressive, but he was probably also just some crazy billionaire who just wanted to make a good name for himself. Wrong. As a matter of fact, all of this humanitarian work that he focused on led to him becoming bankrupt. He wasn't paying enough attention to his business. And so he lost his business, became bankrupt, and essentially unknown for a couple of decades. until 1895. There was a journalist who was like, oh my God, this guy, I know this guy and he's living like obscurely in poverty. I need to let everybody know about him. And he was one of the co-recipients of the first Nobel Peace Prize in 1901.
35:26Chuck Bryant:Quite rightfully so, but this guy was seriously, legitimately a good person.
35:34Josh Clark:Yeah, we've seen, that's kind of one of my favorite things. We've seen it happen quite a bit in history where someone has done great things, but were sort of lost to history. And then some journalist or somebody or historian dug them up. Well, not literally, but, you know, dug up their legacy and brushed it off and said, hey, how about this awesome person that we kind of forgot about?
35:53Chuck Bryant:Yeah, it's nice when they're still alive, too, so they can get the recognition. And maybe you're like, OK, I'll bet he owned slaves or something like that. Nope, he was agitating for the abolition of slavery. Or he was a gun nut. Nope, agitating for disarmament. But like he he he was he he was a humanitarian as if there was ever a humanitarian. Yeah. All right. I say we take another break. Is that good? Yeah, I think we're we're at a good break. Let's all just think about how great Henry Do Not is.
36:24Josh Clark:All right. Let's spend a few moments doing that and we'll be right back.
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37:56Josh Clark:I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that
37:59Chuck Bryant:frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no,
38:07Josh Clark:at this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it.
38:16Chuck Bryant:But there's places in this book that deeply emotionally affected me, and I left it on the mic. That's great.
38:23Josh Clark:Because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
38:36Chuck Bryant:My name is Arnold Bogarty, and prior to me enrolled in Rasmussen to become a nurse, I spent 16 years in the military 12 and Special Forces as an Army Green Beret, and I was recommended to Rasmussen by a former student. She said she loved the culture. It was a family atmosphere. I went to visit the campus. The facilities were amazing. I knew before I left that that was the school that I was going to attend. Rasmussen University. Are you ready to be your own hero online and on campus? Learn more at rasmussen.edu.
39:15Josh Clark:All right. I dwelled on the life of Henry Dunant, and I feel even better than I did a few minutes ago. Same. But we're going to move on and talk a little bit about some of the, you know, it's not all, I talked about, you know, one sort of darkness and that they didn't allow Jewish refugees en masse during World War II. There's some other stuff that they have on their record that's not the greatest in the world. I guess we should talk about Nazi gold a little bit. But in order to talk about that, we should probably talk a little bit about just their, you know, you talked about them being, you know, brilliant business people and a center for business around the world.
39:56Josh Clark:that happened because after they became formerly neutral in 1815 they said you know what this is probably a good place for people to put their money because we're neutral it's safe anytime there's a lot of chaos around the world like with world wars everyone knows that they can come here and do some banking we may not be like you know like a world banking center with like by the likes of London or Berlin, but we can become pretty quietly powerful in our own way, especially if we tell everyone that all their business will be super private, if you know what I'm saying.
40:35Chuck Bryant:Yeah, they put an emphasis on that kind of thing where like if you open an account in Switzerland for decades and most of the 20th century, in fact, if not longer, you could have a secret bank account where like nobody could really figure it out. And that's it's not fully true. Like I think if, say, the U.S. government came with a subpoena to find out who the owner was of a specific account, the Swiss would cooperate with them. But for the most part, this was secret stuff. Right. And that was how they made their name as an international banking center. But also because, like, again, they are really, really good at business.
41:15Chuck Bryant:So you knew that this was like your money was safe, not just because Switzerland was stable, but because their banking system was incredibly stable. So a lot of people took advantage of that. Dictators, money launderers, eventually drug dealers, terrorists, basically anyone, Jackie Chan, anyone you can think of who wanted to evade taxes, launder money, or just wanted to have their money stashed away, you know, quietly and weren't really breaking any laws. you went to Switzerland. Like it's almost a trope. I think it is a trope, the secret Swiss bank account that you would have money transferred to.
41:56Josh Clark:Oh yeah, that officially became official with the Federal Banking Act of 1934 to the utter delight of screenwriters everywhere then and to come. But that unfortunately dried up in the 1990s when they were like, all right, no more secret accounts. So I guess we've got to get rid of that provision. But yeah, it worked its way into a lot of movies over the years. Just like, you know, a numbered Swiss bank account that's growing up with especially like Cold War movies and stuff like that, spy thrillers. It was always like a secret Swiss bank account, I feel like, at play.
42:30Chuck Bryant:They ended up removing that ability from the Swiss banking system because it started to come out just how how many bad guys were using it. And Switzerland was allowing it to happen. So their banking system took a hit. You know, its image did. And they're like, we can't afford to do that. We're not making enough money off of drug dealers and terrorists. We need to, you know, brush our image back up. So that's when they got rid of that.
43:02Josh Clark:Yeah. And their image probably needed a little brushing up because, you know, I think I mentioned something about Nazi gold or if I didn't, I'm mentioning it for the first time now. But they because of World War Two, they the Swiss National Bank ended up buying about four hundred and forty million dollars in Nazi gold, which was basically, you know, laundering that gold. Yeah. That was plundered that we talked about a lot of times, like the plundering of World War Two of the Germans. from different countries, brutally from Holocaust victims. I know we've mentioned stuff like gold dental fillings and stuff.
43:38Josh Clark:Yeah, that was real. Yeah, from Jewish concentration camp victims. And so it's not a good look for the Swiss National Bank to be holding on to this stuff. So later, with the Washington Agreement of 1946, they were made to return, well, at least some of that Nazi gold, not much of it, only about 12 % of it, supposedly to its rightful owners. And that's, you know, they ended up using it for other stuff too, though. They used it sometimes as funds to repay citizens of Switzerland who had seized property by communist regimes in Europe. So they were like, hey, maybe we'll use some of this Nazi gold to repay our own coffers.
44:17Chuck Bryant:Yeah, and you said that they, you know, basically laundered it. They 100 % laundered this. So the Nazis showed up with literally tons and tons of gold, hundreds of tons of gold that was stolen from other countries, gave it to Switzerland. Switzerland gave the Nazi regime money, lots and lots of money in return. And then Switzerland turned around and took that gold and sold it to Spain and Portugal. So they fenced stolen gold for the Nazis and gave the Nazis money in return. It's as simple as that. People didn't know this until the 1990s when Switzerland was sued by a few organizations, including the World Jewish Congress.
44:56Chuck Bryant:That was bad enough. So this is coming out at the same time that the secret account stuff is coming out, too. So Switzerland's taking like one, two punches, haymakers, rope-a-dopes even, left and right. And then on top of that, even worse, you said that they were returning 12 percent of the Nazi gold to its rightful owners as part of the Washington Agreement of 1946. Well, a lot of people who were fleeing Germany or fleeing the Nazi regime or fleeing the Holocaust, but wanted to kind of keep their valuables in a safe place, went to Switzerland to put money in bank accounts, put valuable items in safe deposit boxes.
45:35Chuck Bryant:and after the war ended, their heirs would show up and say, you know, my grandpa or my dad or somebody put this, you know, this family heirloom, this Hope Diamond in a safe deposit box in your bank and I'm here to claim it. Here's all the documentation that I'm their rightful heir. And they would say, all of your papers look like they're in order, but I don't see a death certificate. And the heir would say, well, my father or grandpa or whatever died in a concentration camp, the Nazis didn't issue death certificates for that. They kind of wanted to keep it secret. And the Swiss would say, sorry, can't help you.
46:10Chuck Bryant:And they did that across the board. So they basically kept hundreds of millions of dollars is the accusation of legitimate deposits from legitimate heirs of victims of the Holocaust. Yeah.
46:26Josh Clark:And well, a lot of times they didn't even have documentation at all, you know, much less death certificates because that stuff was destroyed in the war uh finally in 1946 uh they promised to say all right we're gonna find these assets of holocaust victims uh from people who have no like identifiable heirs and we're gonna at least transfer them to a jewish reconstruction organization uh and decades later they basically concluded that that didn't really happen uh and then 1990 i think was when you said finally like fully like was exposed and there was a suit from the world jewish congress that got a 1.25 billion dollar settlement finally in 1998 yeah and and again since then this the swiss have
47:15Chuck Bryant:been doing everything they can to kind of rehabilitate their image but at the same time they have also shown like they're not ones that just immediately bow to international pressure the way that you get them is to hit them in their pocketbooks like like threaten their business or their entire banking industry. That's kind of what the pressure from the outside world was doing. So they seem to have rebounded largely. There are some other things that make Switzerland peculiar too, that are much less evil or dark. One is that they really are in a kind of a weird position as far as international groups go.
47:52Chuck Bryant:Like in some ways, like it makes a lot of sense that they're the host of the International Red Cross headquarters, Geneva is, right? But what about the UN? Should they be members of the UN? The UN does, they have like peacekeeping troops with guns and stuff like that. What is, what are the ramifications of Switzerland joining the UN? And they debated that for decades.
48:16Josh Clark:Yeah, they finally, I mean, it wasn't until 2002 that they even joined the UN. And like you said, it took a long time to kind of work out internally whether or not that's something they wanted to do or if that would kind of ruin all those decades and decades of neutrality that they had become known for. There was a referendum that they eventually voted on whether or not to become a member. And advocates said, you know what, if we get involved with them, we can get involved and still like be committed to mediation and humanitarian aid. Like that will be our role within the UN. And it was a pretty close vote.
48:53Josh Clark:But it was 54.6 in favor and 12. Yeah, almost like right at half, 12 out of the 23 cantons voted yes. And then finally, in 2023, it became a non-permanent member of the U.N. Security Council. That's those peacekeeping troops. That's right. And that was another, you know, it wasn't it was pretty evenly split as well. So like even within the country, they've always sort of hedged like whether or not they wanted to support joining up with these world. groups, you know?
49:24Chuck Bryant:Right, exactly. And for good reason, too. I mean, it's tricky stuff. One of the places or one of the groups that they are just roundly rejecting, so much so that they basically told the EU, like, we're not negotiating anymore. We're not joining the European Union. And the reason why, they actually have pretty legitimate reasons why, especially if you come at life from a business-like attitude. But one is that they would immediately be a net contributor. They would be paying out way more than they were benefiting from being a member of the EU. And the reason why is because they basically have cherry treaties with all of the European countries to do business with them, which is like the attractive thing for a rich country to join the EU.
50:10Chuck Bryant:So they have that without being part of the EU, without having to pay into the EU right now. So they have the best of both worlds and a really negative incentive, a number of negative incentives to join the EU. Yeah.
50:25Josh Clark:Another is they just, they really love taking care of their own business, what they would call direct democracy and deciding for them what's best for them. And if you're part of the EU, then obviously you're part of a larger collective and you don't like just individual citizens ability to decide things for themselves. and hold those referendums, that would go away. And so they're not into that. And also just, you know, they built up this neutral brand over the years. And it's not like branding, branding, but it kind of is. And that they don't want to just throw that all away after, again, you know, more than 100 years, more than that, actually, of like being known.
51:06Like, you know, when you think neutral and you think chocolate
51:10Josh Clark:and you think cuckoo clocks and army knives, you think of Switzerland, and they don't want that to go away.
51:17Chuck Bryant:Yeah. When you think thirst, you think sprite. When you think neutral, you think of Switzerland. That's right. There's another thing, too. Being a member of the EU means that any member nation or the residents of any member nation of the EU can move to your place unrestricted, as far as I know. So immigration is free throughout the European Union, and Switzerland's like, we actually are pretty strict on immigration. And we're worried that if we get a lot of people migrating to Switzerland, the wages in Switzerland are going to start to be decompressed because a lot of people migrating here are willing to accept far less than what the average Swiss person has paid.
51:58Chuck Bryant:So yeah, essentially every, they have all these incentives, you know, morally upstanding or not to not join the EU. And it does not look like they are ever going to join the EU.
52:10Josh Clark:Yeah, or NATO. Obviously, that's a warring organization. For sure. Or not a warring organization, but a military alliance.
52:16Chuck Bryant:For sure. And for all of its blemishes and rough spots and all that, I hope Switzerland stays Switzerland. You know, it would be a... I think everyone does. I think the world would kind of lose something if Switzerland just became like any other country, you know?
52:30Josh Clark:Agreed.
52:31Chuck Bryant:Well, that's Switzerland, Chuck. Swiss neutrality, I should say.
52:35Josh Clark:That's right.
52:36Chuck Bryant:If you want to know more about Swiss neutrality, travel to Switzerland or watch a documentary on Switzerland. And in the meantime, it's time for Listener Mail.
52:48Josh Clark:This is another MASH follow-up. Hey guys, huge MASH fan. I'm a bit older than Chuck and still only 12 when it debuted. It was a perfect blend of comedy and poignant drama showing the horrors of war. I always thought the writing was brilliant and did take characters on a great growth arc. Being a closeted gay kid, now openly and very happy gay man, it was one of the first times that a TV show dealt with the subject of homosexuality in a sympathetic way, even if only on one episode. I was such a fan that I developed a MASH trivia game similar to Trivial Pursuit, and a number of details you mentioned in your episode were part of the game, like Toledo and Tony Paco's.
53:29Josh Clark:Nice. So, great job, guys. Guys, you always do a great job and are so pleasant to listen to on my daily walks. And whenever you guys touch on LGTBQ Plus topics, you do an amazing job as two straight guys. So thank you for that. And that is from Dave in Vancouver. And Dave, I hope you're coming to see our live show in Vancouver. Yeah. We can't wait. There's still tickets available for all of the, well, I guess the first leg will be over by this time. But that second leg in July, I believe, is probably somewhere around this time. Yeah. So we'd love to see everyone.
53:58Chuck Bryant:Coming up quick, Dave. So yeah, we'd love to see you too. You can watch us be two straight guys live and in person. That's right. If you want to be like Dave and let us know how much you like us, we'd really appreciate those kind of emails. Or you can say whatever you like. Whatever you have to say, send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
54:23Josh Clark:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
54:40Chuck Bryant:This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem? When you think about discovering small brands, what store pops into your mind? Well, it should be Walmart. Seriously. Walmart has thousands of small brands, and they're all in one place. Just go online or in-store, discover, and shop. It could not be easier. Every one of these brands has a real story and real people behind it. They're true American success stories, and you can find them all at Walmart. Discover thousands of small brands at walmart.com today. I'm U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. We all seem to be in a rush these days, from work to driving our kids around.
55:23Chuck Bryant:But when you're behind the wheel, please do not speed.
55:26Josh Clark:a few minutes saved by going faster is never worth the risk. So follow the speed limit, enjoy the drive, maybe bring some snacks for the kids, and know that along the way, you're getting quality time with your family. Paid for by NHTSA.
55:45Josh Clark:It's called soccer. It's called football. Uh, soccer. Football. Domino's best deal ever lets you get any pizza, including stuffed crust. with any toppings for$9.99. We can agree on that.
56:01Chuck Bryant:Yeah, fully. So pineapple?
56:03Josh Clark:Don't ruin it. Get any pizza including stuffed crust with any toppings for$9.99. Finally something everyone can get behind. And if the refs disagree, that's between them and Domino's, which means the only thing left to fight over is who's ordering. Domino's. Price is higher for some locations. Excludes XL and specialty pizzas. Select this offer from$6.15 to$7.26. Online only. Size availability varies by crust tank. Max 7 toppings. 6 for pan and New York style crust. Minimum purchase required for delivery. Prices participation delivery area and charges may vary. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
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We all know Switzerland is neutral. But why? Listen in and you might learn something.
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