White Boy Rick

22:31Chuck Bryant:Exactly. And his dad wasn't saying that either. Yeah. So I want to say the impression I have of his dad is that he was not a bad guy. And he does seem to regret a lot of the decisions he didn't make back at this time. So I don't think he was like just a bad dude who didn't care. seems like he was pretty involved in his son's life. The problem was his son's life included, you know, driving a Jeep that said the snowman on back and selling cocaine for the FBI. Yeah, I mean, I think what the takeaway is is that ultimately his dad said, all right, all right, all right. That's right. I'm really curious to see this movie now.

23:10I wonder how McConaughey plays this dude.

23:11Chuck Bryant:I'm sure exactly like you just said. Because he does not scream Eastside Detroit. No, he really doesn't. All right. So you said something about him avoiding getting killed, which is fairly remarkable. But he did get shot at least once in November of 84. He was shot in the stomach by a Curry gang member who said it was an accident. But Rick was like initially was like, hey, they found out who I am. That's why I got shot. The girlfriend of the guy who shot him called 911. And before the ambulance could get there, there were some other gang members who showed up, put in the backseat of the car and he didn't know, like, are they taking me to the hospital or going to take me out and dump me in the woods?

23:52Like, what's going on? And perhaps so had it not been for that ambulance showing up and blocking the driveway and saying, like, give that kid to us now.

24:01Chuck Bryant:Yeah, he I guess that had a really like a big chilling effect. He was ready to quit. And the FBI showed up at his hospital room and said, just keep going. They would have killed you if they actually did know. So they wouldn't have let you go in an ambulance. You would be dead already. So just keep going. And I guess he was like, I don't know. And they're like, got 10 grand right here. And he's like, all right, you guys, you know me so well. And he got back to it. Yeah. And not only that, they said, you can actually use this, Rick. Right. Like, you got street cred now. And not many people, especially your age, have been shot and lived to tell about it.

24:37So, like, you're kind of a cool kid now in that gang. And he kind of was. I mean, it worked out that way. Yeah. I think in February of 85, after he'd been doing this a little while, is when they got their first really big raid, almost at Sting. But he gave them information that led to about$200 ,000 in cash when they raided a house, some video equipment, obviously a lot of cocaine and guns, like all the things you would expect to find.

25:05Chuck Bryant:I saw they just had two punch bowls full of cocaine just sitting out on the table. Nice. Punch bowls are big. That kind of house. That's a lot of cocaine. It really is. Yeah, there was an FBI agent named John Anthony who said that Rick was the most productive informant the agency had in Detroit at the time. The whole city, not just East Detroit. This is a 15-year-old kid. I mean, that's a huge bust to get$200 ,000 in$1985 and punch bowls of cocaine. So he becomes such an amazing asset, Chuck, that at one point the Curry gang, a bunch of other big drug dealers from Detroit, were going to see the Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns fight because Hearns was the pride of Detroit.

25:50Chuck Bryant:And this is a title middleweight fight, I believe, in 1985. The Hitman, right. So all these Detroit drug dealers were going to watch the match. And they invited White Boy Rick. and the FBI got him like a high quality fake ID and paid to send him to Vegas, paid for his plane ticket, paid for his hotel, gave him some walking around money and said, go, 15-year-old, go to Las Vegas with a group of high-level drug dealers and just find out what you can. And he did. Yeah. Yeah, it's kids in Vegas at the Tommy Hearns fight. Yeah. uh yeah i mean the story just gets crazier um after he gets back from vegas uh part of the curry gang uh engaged in a drive-by shooting um uh it accidentally killed a 13 year old boy named damian lucas and the cops basically made this investigation go away and rick was like i it was starting to kind of dawn on him uh because of this personal tie that the curries had with the mayor that like, wait a minute, like this is now getting covered up on a large scale because they've killed this kid, this 13 year old, a couple of years younger than me.

27:08And Johnny Curry gave Beverly Hills Cop a guy, 10 grand as a bribe to cover it up. And Rick found out about this.

27:16Chuck Bryant:Yeah, he was riding around in a car with Johnny Curry, who had the, who had Gil Hill, Commander Gil Hill on, oh, what is it called when you have it on Speaker? He had him on speaker and they were talking about covering it up for the Curry gang. And he did like that was a that was a big, big turning point in this whole story. The murder of Damian Lucas. Yeah, for sure. So the FBI, you know, things are getting pretty hairy. They cut ties with him just before he turned 16. Richard Sr. was now off the books as the, I guess, fake informant in June of 1986. and you know it seems pretty clear that they're probably worried like hey this has gone far enough uh if this gets out that we've done this it's not going to look great for us as feds and this is when you know i kind of remarked earlier about how well now this kid is in this lifestyle right uh and he's having the the cord pulled on him like the rug pulled out from under him and so rick you know does what a kid that age and that you know not quite yet fully formed brain would do, which is, hey, I'm going to keep doing this stuff.

28:23So he got into the real drug trade after the FBI dropped him.

28:28Chuck Bryant:Yeah, that is, it's disputed whether that happened after or before they dropped him. So like during, as he was an FBI informant. And it seems like it's probably, there's a really good chance that it actually had happened. And that one of the reasons the FBI dropped him was because his actual drug career was taking off quite nicely. And they were Like we just this kid's getting too hot rather than being like, we're going to bring in from the cold kid. Like we're going to move you somewhere because we we did this to you. We need to give you set you up with a normal life. They just walked away like dusting their hands off and left him to this life in East Detroit as a what he eventually became a very prominent drug dealer.

29:09Yeah. And, you know, all the connections he made were valuable connections as, you know, his his I don't want to say legit, but I guess he was a legit drug dealer.

29:18Chuck Bryant:Yeah. One of the guys, the main guys who kind of got him involved was a friend he made through those connections with the Currys, was a wholesale cocaine guy named Art Derrick. He was a suburban dude who was operating some drug planes that were coming up into Miami. And Rick became friends with him and his son. and he, you know, the kid 16 years old at this point starts buying as much as like 50 kilos at a time as a cocaine wholesaler himself is what they call a weight man. Like he's not operating a ring of like dealers or anything like that, but he's bringing in the large amounts and selling that stuff.

29:58Chuck Bryant:Right, which he, just by that, by virtue of that, he automatically made less money. I saw FBI agent estimate he was probably making$5 ,000 off a key. But he was selling tons and tons of keys, so he was making, like, really significant money. But you could also take a single key and turn it into a million dollars, broken down into, like, and converted into$5 hits of crack, if you were willing to do all that. That's what the Chamber Brothers did, those guys who took over the apartment building. They made an estimated$55 million a year doing that. But I mean, like White Boy Rick was later implicated as being one of the people who supplied the Chamber Brothers with their cocaine.

30:39Chuck Bryant:Like he became a wholesale Coke dealer. That's not necessarily true, but he definitely did supply plenty of people with their cocaine as a wholesale Coke dealer. And one of the things that he didn't do, this to me really stands out. He hung with the Currys, but he never became a Curry soldier. He never became a Curry drug dealer. He had his own operation essentially going on where he sold keys to other people. And he was just basically an associate of the Currys, which I thought was super cool. Like he just kept his own identity rather than just being absorbed into the Curry gang. Yeah, well, he ended up getting some of the Curry brothers in trouble just from all the information they had fed, you know, the FBI over the years.

31:24They were starting to make arrests, I think, in 87. They indicted at least the twins and some other people in their organization. And they pleaded guilty at the time to drugs and racketeering, obviously. They kept it quiet about the city government at that point. They were still, like, not selling out, like, the mayor and the corrupt cops. And the city was like, great, like, we need to keep it this way. And I think that's when we found out about Gil Hill, Beverly Hills Cop Gil Hill, trying to get this guy, Nate Boonecraft, to assassinate little white boy Rick. I think he offered him$125 ,000, and he tried to kill him a couple of times.

32:07Chuck Bryant:Yeah. You know that you've arrived if you're 16 years old and you're not going to be murdered. You're going to be assassinated. That means you know a lot. And the guy from Beverly Hills Cop was the one making the call. Yeah. It's like, who would ever believe this, right? Yeah. So, yeah, Nate Boonecraft later admitted to trying on two different occasions to carry out that hit. So Rick is trying to capitalize on, you know, the Currys now suddenly being not completely out of the picture, but at least some of the main guys being rounded up and kind of filled the void, the drug void that was left by them.

32:46And he starts dating Kathy Bolson. She was 24. He was 17. He was making about 30 grand a month and has three kids at this point.

32:57Chuck Bryant:Yeah. I don't know if they were all with her. I don't think they were. But I think his firstborn, Keisha, was. And the fact that Kathy Bolson started dating him, you said that, you know, he was a legit drug dealer, as legit as a drug dealer can be. helped legitimize him. Like, she is a, and she was, especially at this time, a big, big deal in East Detroit. And all of a sudden, like, this essentially, like, East Detroit royalty, like, criminal royalty comes down and is like, I'm gonna start dating you now, white boy Rick. And she essentially, like, just put that seal of approval on him that just kind of really gave him a certain luster in that area.

33:41Yeah, and And presumably did not get arrested herself for, you know, having sex with an underage kid.

33:48Chuck Bryant:No, no. I think they had other things in mind. But even still, she would not have gotten arrested because she had Detroit PD keeping tabs on her as protection because the mayor had ordered the DPD to constantly surveil her to make sure she was OK. Not to catch her with anything. In fact, to look the other way on it. So she could essentially do anything she wanted to, and it would have been fine for her. For sure. All right. Well, let's take our second break, and we'll finish up with the saga of White Boy Rick right after this. Thank you.

34:48Then Dwight Howard and the L.A. Riot, coming fresh off a win, look to knock off the undefeated Chicago Triplets, led by Coach Dr. J. The game played the way you love. Watch live Sunday on CBS at 2 p.m. Eastern, 11 a.m. Pacific, and catch replays Monday on BET. Presented by iHeart. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The July Savings Event from Apple Vacations is here. Book by July 23rd and save up to$400 off your flight and hotel package to Mexico, the Caribbean, Central America, Hawaii, or Europe. From all-inclusive escapes to bucket list adventures, Apple Vacations makes it easy to create memories with the people who matter most.

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36:39Chuck Bryant:okay chuck so the party ends on may 22nd 1987 the detroit police decide that rick needs to go down if nate booncraft can't kill him we're just going to do it the old-fashioned way and arrest him and just lock them up. And they found 30 grand in cash in his car. They also found eight keys of cocaine that was stashed under a neighbor's porch that Rick said, yeah, that's mine. He was 17, so he's still a juvenile, and he got arrested with eight keys and 30 grand in cash. He made bail, and then a few months later in October, he was arrested again, this time with five kilos of cocaine and guns, drug paraphernalia, the whole thing.

37:25Chuck Bryant:Even worse, some of this stuff was found in his dad's house and his grandparents' house, which means they could have gone to prison, lost their houses. Like they really had them. If they didn't have them in May, they really had them in October, right? And so around about this time, the name White Boy Rick becomes much more widely known, not just in East Detroit, but in Detroit as a whole, and then very quickly across the nation because it was such a crazy novelty that there was this 17-year-old white kid who was essentially the only white kid in East Detroit's drug trade and seemed to be pretty powerful.

38:03Chuck Bryant:And in fact, the media, in particular Chris Hansen,

38:09Chuck Bryant:really, what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know. Broadulently inflated the importance of white boy Rick, like right out of the gate just because it was so novel. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's the media and that's what the media does. So they, yeah, it was very sensationalized. You know, this stuff obviously happened, but it's like, hey, let's run, you know, another sort of injustice basically was like, hey, let's run with this story because this is a kid and it'll, you know, there weren't clicks at the time, but like it'll get views or whatever on our station and in our newspaper. So it was a big sort of sensational trial when he finally was brought forward the following January.

38:52And at the beginning, the feds met with Rick and his dad and his mom are like, hey, if you want to testify and turn state's evidence against this everybody, basically, you can do that. And we're going to, you know, we can help you out. And he was like, dude, I would get killed so fast your head would spin. So no thank you.

39:13Chuck Bryant:Right. Yeah. So he passed on that. He was like, I'm going to I'm going to see what I can do with the jury. He actually felt pretty good about his chances because they hadn't found the eight keys on him. They found it under a neighbor's porch. Like there were all sorts of extenuating circumstances. The problem was he had the full force and weight of Detroit City Hall and the Detroit Police Department against him. In every back channel you can imagine in the city at that time, they were working to get him convicted as badly as he could be convicted. The media wasn't helping. Somebody, I think Chris Hansen again, he started in Detroit.

39:49Chuck Bryant:He would go on to be the to catch a predator guy. They showed an org chart which showed all of the city's biggest drug dealers. And guess who was at the very top? The kingpin they portrayed as the guy who supplied all of the big drug dealers in Detroit. Why? No other than White Boy Rick. Because remember, they were trying to really kind of make this even more sensational than it already was. So they just said, well, this guy's actually the guy. Can you believe that? And that did not help his chances either because he started to be seen as if there's a crack epidemic in Detroit, this guy is ground zero for the problem.

40:31Yeah, for sure. They did not disclose in the trial at any point that he was a federal informant, that he was a CI. guy. He said later, like, you know, Rick's talked a lot about this over the years, but he later claimed that he was, that the lawyers that they assigned him, the public defenders, were connected to the mayor, who obviously was kind of trying to make all this go away and cover up for everything on his family side, and was like, hey, lock this kid away, basically, and make sure these lawyers make sure that happen. One of those, you know, that hasn't been proven, But this is what Rick said.

41:06Makes a lot of sense. And one of those lawyers that was on his quote unquote team went on to fight his parole in 2003. So that kind of says it all. It really does.

41:18Chuck Bryant:Yeah, that's not good defense right there. The judge who convicted him said that he was worse than a mass murderer during his sentencing, I believe. And even if the judge hadn't wanted to do this, she had no choice. He was given life in prison without parole at age 17. And the reason why the judge had no choice is because about 10 years earlier, Michigan had passed a law called the 650 Lifer Law, where if you were caught with 650 grams or more of cocaine, which is about one and a half pounds or a little under half of a kilo, you got a life sentence without parole. No questions asked. If you were convicted of that, you went to prison for life.

42:08Chuck Bryant:And this kid was 17 and got that sentence and was told that he was worse than a mass murderer. So things were not looking very good for him when he was sentenced after he was convicted. Yeah, for sure. It was a period in our country where mandatory minimums were kind of popping up all over the place. For what it's worth, the governor who signed that one said it was the greatest mistake of his career. probably didn't make Rick feel much better. But after the trial, Matthew McConaughey is giving interviews, and he's basically saying, like, hey, we were federal informants. My son at 14 was a federal informant.

42:47But at this point, like, this wasn't disclosed in the trial or anything, so everyone thinks it's just this dad kind of ranting this crazy talk. No one's taking him seriously. They didn't have any kind of credibility. And in 1991, in prison, Rick starts working for the feds again from prison in an operation called Operation Backbone.

43:09Chuck Bryant:Right. One of the FBI agents who had worked with him before, I think he was the first one who turned Rick into an informant at age 14. His name was Greg Schwartz. He came to him years later for this Operation Backbone and said, we've been listening in to the Currys for years now. And we're it's quite clear that they are in bed with the Detroit Police Department and City Hall. And it's time for us to take them down. We need your help. So he and Kathy Volson were they'd broken up, but they remained friendly and she would visit him in prison pretty regularly. So because she was the thing that everything centered on, he basically used her to infect the drug and City Hall connection with a DEA agent, I'm sorry, FBI agent who went undercover and carried out like this highly successful operation backbone.

44:08Yeah, it was a big, they got 11 cops. Other people obviously were arrested, but they got, you know, 11 crooked cops out of that. One of them was, or I mean, several of them were like kind of in the Mayor Young's inner circle. I think his favorite bodyguard was implicated. His brother-in-law, who was Kathy Bolson's father, was implicated. And she was even implicated at first and initially charged, but the charges on her were dropped.

44:37Chuck Bryant:Yeah, for sure. One of the things I saw, Chuck, that one of the cops, the Detroit cops did, was asked to do as part of this sting, was to carry an assault rifle around airport security so that it could be taken aboard a plane to be used in a hit in Chicago. And he did it. Like, that's how dirty the cops were. And the FBI was the one they were the ones setting him up because this undercover agent has totally infiltrated this group because white boy Rick vouched for him over and over again and introduced him to Kathy Wilson Curry, who kind of tacitly vouched for him, too. It was about as great of an operation as you could hope for if you're an FBI person.

45:19Chuck Bryant:The mayor almost came very he came very close to going down to he didn't. And yet, despite all this cooperation, despite all the stuff he had done for the FBI up to this point, he could not get paroled to save his life. No, I think, you know, you said it went about as well as it could. I think it quite didn't because, or didn't quite, because they would have loved to have gotten the mayor and they would have loved to have gotten the higher-ups in the police department. They ended up getting, you know, rank-and-file cops. They didn't get Gil Hill. They had a literally, like Rick testified, like, hey, I heard a phone call where that guy from Beverly Hills Cop agreed to cover up that kid's killing from the drive-by shooting, and he was never charged.

46:07So, you know, they didn't get the big fish, but they certainly got enough people. I think this was not too long after the Mary and Barry scandal, smoking crack as a mayor, like a high-profile mayor, and I think there was a lot of just like, hey, we don't need another scandal of another high-profile mayor in this country, like, doing the wrong thing.

46:28Chuck Bryant:Right. Right. So Greg Schwartz, actually, he showed up. He said, OK, you helped us out. It was good enough for us to reward you. So we're going to move you to a medium security prison in Florida. And we're going to basically put you under witness protection under an assumed name. And while he was there in Florida, this was, I think, up to the 2000s. So he was in Florida for a while. He was just doing his thing. And remember, we talked about how much he loved cars. Well, he was caught running or at least participating in a car theft ring, a stolen car ring from prison. He was helping coordinate the whole thing.

47:08Chuck Bryant:And that's tough to do and not get caught because eventually your conversation is going to be overheard or listened to and you're going to get in trouble. And that's exactly what happened. They got him on racketeering charges in 2005. Yeah, so that lands him back in Michigan in prison. And this whole time, white boy Rick is in prison for, you know, decades at this point. And everyone else that he was, had been, you know, associating with was getting out. Johnny Curry got out in 99. That hit man that tried to kill him twice and admitted to murdering 30 people did 17 years and then cooperated with the cops.

47:49that mandatory minimum that sent him the 650 lifer that was overturned by the Michigan Supreme Court in 1998. And everyone else that had been impacted by that law ended up free within six years. But Rick stayed in prison. He just kept getting denied parole. I think the first one was in 2003. He asked, like, you know, some of the feds that he was working with to help him out and they wouldn't do it. one of the guys that he had worked with, a guy named Herman Groman, basically was like, all right, I'll tell them about Operation Backbone and he helped us out with that, but not the stuff from when you were 14.

48:25Chuck Bryant:Yeah. The problem is, is like none of that was ever going to help because white boy Rick had broken a really big rule by ratting out on cops. He was smart enough to not rat out his drug dealer friends, but he definitely ratted out on the cops. and the cops went to great lengths to make sure he stayed in prison to make an example out of him and to punish him too. And so in a really unusual move, a bunch of Detroit police officers went to his 2003 parole hearing and basically just lied, lied, lied about what a horrible criminal he was, like what a terrible effect he had on Detroit and how he really needed to stay in prison.

49:04Chuck Bryant:and he got denied, got denied again in 2008, and he got denied again in 2012, too. Yeah, that Greg Schwartz, the Fed, this time actually wrote a letter saying like, hey, he did a lot of stuff with us, actually. It wasn't just Operation Backbone. That Damian Lucas murder, he tried to help us out with that, that 13-year-old kid who got killed. and he said, you know, we never disclosed this stuff because he was a kid and we would have been exposed and embarrassed that the federal government was working with a kid in this capacity. They rejected that one too, even though he finally had someone willing to vouch for him.

49:44And until 2013, there wasn't a lot of, I mean, aside from just, you know, the earlier time when he actually got sent to prison, it had really quieted down about, you know, white boy Rick. Like no one kind of knew who he was. And then in 2013, that there was a guy named Seth Ferrante who was an incarcerated journalist. He wrote a column at The Fix that reported a lot of this stuff. And then that was picked up by Evan Hughes, who wrote that Atavis article in 2015 that you were talking about that we read. And that was like, that was it. All of a sudden it was fully out there. Like he didn't even get to go to his dad's funeral.

50:22His dad died while he was in prison. And he has like six grandchildren at this point in his in his 40s, which is remarkable. And he's like not met these kids at this point.

50:33Chuck Bryant:No. So one thing that makes it like really kind of gets across how how just under the thumb of of the Detroit Police Department, this kid was still decades on a judge. Judge Dana Hathaway, I think she was the original judge in his trial. She threw out the life sentence as a judge, right? This wasn't something she did in her leisure time. Like she officially threw out his life sentence and prosecutors appealed and won. So he had his life sentence like was upheld. What, 30 years later. And Hathaway even went on the record saying that this whole thing was very fishy. Finally, two years later, he's granted parole.

51:19Chuck Bryant:This is 13 years after the last person who was given a life sentence under that Michigan 650 lifer law had already been let out. He was the only one. And his incarceration continued for 13 more years. He got out in 2017, age 47. And you would think that would be the end of the story, Chuck, but it was not, was it? No. No, he gets that parole and probably or at least maybe had something to do with those movies that we were talking about. The documentary in the Matthew McConaughey movie, because certainly high profile enough to like bring his name back into the forefront. And then people start asking questions and stuff like that.

51:59But he had to stay or I guess got resentenced from the prison sentence in Florida for that stolen car stuff. So he's back in jail in Florida. He was, you know, bouncing back and forth. Finally released from there in July of 2020. I think he was 51 at the time and was like, I need some money. I need some restitution. He sued the feds, of course, and he didn't get anything.

52:23Chuck Bryant:No, the judge said the statute of limitations had run out in 2006. And he's like, well, I couldn't really say anything while I was in jail because I would have gotten beaten up on a daily basis by the guards. and they said, sorry, pal, like none of your very legitimate suits against the federal government are going to be able to be tried. So apparently he's working on his own documentary project about his life too with hip-hop director Hype Williams. Yeah, I worked with Hype back in the day. Oh, yeah, is he related to Freedom Williams? I have no idea, but Hype was one of the biggest names in the game back then.

53:01Oh, yeah. And I'll tell you off mic. Okay. Some other stuff.

53:05Chuck Bryant:I can't wait to hear this. Okay. Well, since I want to hurry up and end this episode because I want to hear what Chuck has to say about Hype Williams, I think it's time for Listener Mail.

53:18Instead of Listener Mail, we're going to give issue one last, well, not one last, but another reminder about our voyage, our Stuff It Sea voyage aboard the Valiant Lady of Virgin Cruises, which will take place October 2nd through 7th. Where are we going? We're going from New York City to Bermuda and we're going to be doing our live show and we're going to be with our buddies from Stuff They Don't Want You to Know and Stuff Mom Never Told You and we're going to be doing like other events on board.

53:46Chuck Bryant:It's going to be a lot of fun. Yeah. You can go to virginvoyages.com slash stuff at sea and start booking passage today. That's what they call it on the high seas, booking passage and come float around with us for five days. It'll be fun. That's right. Can't wait. Can't wait. And we also can't wait to hear from you via email, which you can send to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

54:57We'll be right back. by iHeart.

54:59Chuck Bryant:Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The July Savings Event from Apple Vacations is here. Book by July 23rd and save up to$400 off your flight and hotel package to Mexico, the Caribbean, Central America, Hawaii, or Europe. From all-inclusive escapes to bucket list adventures, Apple Vacations makes it easy to create memories with the people who matter most. Start today at AppleVacations.com or contact your trusted travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts.

55:53Chuck Bryant:laughs, and danger. Don't miss the new series, Ride or Die, now streaming only on Prime Video. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.