How much would you sacrifice to work in fashion?

23:46So if you want to access Amandi's podcast, it has to be through Patreon in real time. And then she drops the episodes once they've hit. And she generally drops them when they're a bit older onto the other platform. So this is the only way you can actually access her podcast. She's accrued a dedicated following on Patreon and has had some pretty impressive guests like Laura Roach, Cynthia Erivo, and more recently, Gwyneth Paltrow. Now, for the 55k job saga last week, Reshow posted a job listing for her company that was basically from what she had described as well, three roles in one. The listing said, it combines the responsibilities of a bookings administrator and studio coordinator, alongside working as a personal assistant to Reshow.

24:26But the kicker was that the job, which would be based in New York and be full-time. So in that context, it's 9.30 to 6.30 p.m. with no option of working from home, was paying$55 ,000 pre-tax and had no benefits. An article written by Dania Asawi for the cut detailing the backlash says that according to the New York City Department of Housing Preservation and Development, a salary of that size would classify the earner as very low income. As you might expect, the backlash particularly on TikTok was immediate. Commenters particularly were criticizing the lack of benefits and how low the pay was considering the workload, with one commenting that 55k for an in-person job in New York City is borderline exploitation at this point.

25:09As the CART article details, rather than giving into pressure from her ticked off audience, Amandi initially went live on TikTok to push back against the criticism and double down. In that live, she said, it's not lost on me that that's not a glamorous wage. You can't be living lavishly. She said, adding that she's looking for the kind of person who wants to come to New York and hustle in the early years of their career. Eventually on Thursday, last week, she posted a five-minute voice note to her paying Patreon subscribers, where she said the company made a mess out of this unintentionally, and that she's freezing the hiring process for the role, despite having over 800 applicants for the position.

25:46She also said she'll be consulting HR and a recruitment firm to improve the job description and reassess the roles and responsibilities. There's a lot there. It has been evolving quite a bit since we first dropped this in the Slack channel. Jo, what did you think about her episode retracting at all? I thought it was a pretty measured response in the Patreon. Well, people posted it on TikTok, so I didn't have to subscribe to listen to it. But it was just a quick snippet basically clarifying. And she did own up. She was like, I probably shouldn't have taken it to TikTok. I shouldn't have done the live.

26:20I probably shouldn't have really doubled down on what I had to say. So I did respect that she went to her audience, the people that pay to listen to that podcast and clarified, I guess, what she intended from that. It's always going to go badly when you are posting a junior role on social media because the salaries are always going to appear lower. I think we've all had jobs like this where we have been paid probably not what we should have been paid to do the roles that we worked in and did the roles of maybe three or four people at once. I certainly have had one of those roles before. So it's not new, I don't think, for an entry-level position to require a lot of different things.

27:03But from that article in the cut, it sounds like the livable wage or what they would consider a livable wage for a single person in New York is$68 ,000 USD. And obviously that's well under that. However, it's$84 ,000 Australian dollars, that 55k translates into 84. So when you think about it like that, it's like, oh, that would be quite a decent entry-level salary for someone that's starting their career in fashion, for example. But that's being Melbourne-based. We don't have the same kind of rent. The overheads are arguably nowhere near as high. The York, I'm pretty sure, is the most expensive city in the world.

27:37I think you're right. Yeah. And also, we have free healthcare here. They weren't offering the benefits of healthcare and other things like that that you might need in the US. So it's a tricky one. It really is. And also the comments on some of the posts were very much in her favor. When you say the post, what post are you referring to? The NY Times post. Yeah, the article. Yeah, of the article. Yes. Did you see those comments as well? I did. And it's interesting because when we first popped this in the Slack channel and we were talking about it, I felt like the sentiment on TikTok was really anti-Amandi.

28:08Yes. It was very much centered around how difficult it is to live in New York and how much the fashion industry as a whole has a problem around these entry-level roles and people being expected to work these jobs for not a lot of money. Yeah. And a lot of people were criticizing Amandi for contributing to that narrative. Then towards the latter end of the conversation, when the piece actually ran, the sentiment was very different on the Instagram post. It felt like a lot of people were coming to Amandi's defense. And I tend to agree that she shouldn't be the face of a broader systemic issue in the fashion industry, which is organizations not paying people a livable wage at an entry-level job and expecting them to just accept that because that's what the experience is in fashion and has been for a really long time.

28:53I don't think it was fair for Amandi as a black female founder in fashion to be the face of that. Yeah, with a small business. She only has four employees. It's a small business. But also, let's not assume that they didn't do their research and see what what other jobs were in market at the same time and what those salaries were. Well, they're not stupid. Also, hold a mirror up. And a lot of people were calling this out in the comments. Exactly. The company that obviously owns the cut as well. It's like, how much are you paying your team? And I don't know, but I think there were a lot of people in the comments saying it's a bit rich.

29:24Coming from these large organizations. Annika, speaking firsthand as someone who's in the fashion industry and has a few contacts in New York, what's your take on it from a fashion perspective? Honestly, fashion is just such a glorified industry. It is an industry often where experience is everything. And I don't agree with the salary for the position, mainly because it was three positions in one. It could have been fair had it had been like, okay, one of those positions. The requirements of this role were high. The salary did not reflect those requirements. It's just really hard because the cost of living in New York is astronomical.

30:01It's high. But also in the defense of the article, I know so many girls working in fashion in New York who have multiple jobs. Yes, you mentioned that. And the hustle is so real, you guys. I work with some leading retailers and the buyers have full-time jobs day-to-day. After hours, they work at Pilates Studios or they have a job on the weekend. The cost of living is astronomical, but it's not unusual to have more than one job in New York. Yeah. And I think in an industry as well where people are so driven by experience, they want to soak it up. They want to actually try all different elements of the industry, whether that's a media, fashion, sales, PR, whatever, to get a foot in the door.

30:39And seeing 800 applicants just shows that this is a role that's in high demand. It's a reality. It's going to be something people want. The unfortunate reality, which kind of made me think back to my own personal journey, does this foster burnout? Does this foster a culture where the fashion industry does honestly get a bad rap sometimes because you don't often get remunerated fairly, especially when you're starting out. You are forced to go above and beyond. And when I look back at my own journey, I was on minimum wage for, I reckon, maybe the first three to four years of my career. I hustled.

31:10I interned. I soaked up everything possible. I studied full time. And I had to earn my stripes before I could actually get to a position where I didn't have to work a couple more jobs. So I can resonate because I've been there. And maybe that's when my bias comes in. I'm like, no, they need to be paid more. But it is the nature sometimes of the game in our industry, which I think is a bit shit. Yeah. There were a lot of commenters in that thread as well that were like, I did work for free. I was an intern and I just, I worked on the side to get my foot in the door with fashion. Like as if you can complain about a 55K salary.

31:44There was a lot of that as well. Yeah. Yeah. It seemed really divided. It really did for me depend on what platform you were on in terms of where the sentiment sat. I actually listened to the Patreon episode literally when it came out because we came out of our stylish meeting and it dropped and I was like, here I am. I agree with you, Jo, coming back to how she handled the situation. I do think Amandi took great accountability and responsibility for where she fell down. And a lot of the onus was on how she had commed the position and how she had doubled down in that initial video. She then went on to say that she was following the proper process, taking the job down, which I think was the right thing to do, regrouping with a HR consultant and recruiter to better gauge what is the landscape and how should she be approaching this role?

32:28I also think TikTok is just not the place for recruitment. Because what happened, and Amandi touched on this as well in her episode, is she wasn't speaking to her consumer. She wasn't speaking to her listener. She was speaking to a worldwide audience who then were weighing in on the salary and all these details of it, which there was rightfully a conversation about that. But I think it just hit the wrong audience. and for someone who has a Patreon, it was smart to me that she went back to the Patreon where her community are and met them where they were for when she was doing the apology and the explainer because for me, that is a controlled environment where you know that the people that are buying into this, your content have been here for a while and actually putting their money up for you, they're going to have a little bit more benefit of the doubt than the average TikTok viewer.

33:18So I can see how she ended up there. I just wish she did that from the start because I would say that if someone's willing to pay, I can't even remember how much her monthly fee is, but I do pay it, is consuming their content is also probably the person you do want working for your company because they understand in and out who you are on a surface level or parasocial level. But I'm surprised she didn't go to her Patreon to do that and instead went to TikTok. But you live and you learn. You do. You won't be doing that again. No. Hindsight's a beautiful thing. Yes. Something I did find interesting about this thought was Rachel actually is considered quite a fashion truth teller within the industry.

33:55And I think people often look to her platform because she is known for uncovering messes. So something that I found actually really interesting, in 2024, Marie Claire interviewed her and reported, on the cutting room floor, Omonde dismantles the outside illusion that fashion is glamorous and glossy. Transparency is not always sexy, she says. In some ways, the industry is built on dreams to the detriment of people working there, to those dreams you're tasked with upholding that image even if you're struggling her program prides itself on presenting the industry for what it really is messy complicated and a lot of work and I mean this quote yes it's from 2024 but in a year's time I'm like you're kind of contributing towards that mess like you're not cleaning up here and I think going back to your point right it does it's like no she shouldn't be the face of this issue because it is a systemic issue but it's kind of contradictory at the same time.

34:49Yeah. Yeah. Interesting take. I think she's owning the fact that she's messy though. And maybe this is because I consume a lot of her content. So I am coming at this from a place of bias and I have to acknowledge that I think her tone of voice and how she shows up behind the mark is really consistent and that transparency piece is always there. Even in the way she interviews people, she always gets really raw, interesting soundbites from whoever her guests are that you don't hear on other podcasts because she's not afraid to ask them hard-hitting questions. When she interviewed Steve Madden, she point blank was like, do you copy other brands?

35:24And it's like, who is saying that to the person that they're interviewing? Yeah, respect. People know that they're showing up on her podcast that that's the sort of conversation they should be expecting. So naturally, I think she attracts people who are willing to, you know, push that transparency boundary, but also have a gritty conversation. I would say she's gritty. Now, I don't think that necessarily translates really well in this context when you're talking about hiring for a position and also you're contributing to that negativity in the industry and the sentiment around it being a systemic problem.

35:53Like you're absolutely contributing to that. But in terms of how she shows up, it didn't feel that different to how I would expect her to being someone who consumes a lot of her content. Yeah, right. Yeah. Anyway. That's bringing us into your algorithm. That was... I liked that. I know it's an interesting place to be. Yeah. I don't think it's going to stop here as well. I think there's more to come. But next, we're going to discuss the beauty side effect boom. This is very Joe coded, but that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

36:26All right. So what is the beauty side effect boom? A recent Dazed article written by Alan Atlanta explored something called the beauty side effect boom, an ever-growing part of the cosmetic industry that's dedicated to correcting the impact of other treatments. Alan writes that the most profitable trend in beauty right now isn't a new lip or laser. It's the appointment after the appointment. This is the side effect beauty boom. The aftercare aisle has eaten the main event and the repair plan often costs more in money, time, and headspace than the original enhancement. We're no longer just buying beauty.

36:58We're buying the tools to survive it. The article details a variety of common cosmetic procedures that end up creating a side effect that requires more work to fix. Think filler migration, the rise of skin barrier repair products because more people than ever are using harsh lasers and skincare actives or Botox causing other muscles elsewhere in the face to over-recruit to make up for the paralyzed area, leading to more lines to fix. Speaking to dazed London-based esthetician, Dr. Stephen Harris said, a growing portion of my clinical work now involves undoing the damage caused by prior aesthetic treatments performed elsewhere.

37:30Around a third of my clinic slots are dedicated to corrections rather than first-time treatments. We're now treating the treatment rather than enhancing the person. It's the aesthetic version of medical overprescribing and it's accelerating. Have you guys seen this in your own lives yet? Not yet because I've only had Botox. I started getting Botox at the age of 28. I was also the last one in my friendship group to get it. A lot of my friends were getting it in their mid-20s, around 24, 25. So no, because I haven't really had any post-procedure tweakments needed. So no. But I can see it as a trend overall, particularly on social media and TikTok.

38:13I'm seeing a lot of people, it starts here and then ends up over there. Yeah. Yes. I have so many girlfriends who are getting tweakments. Like one of my girlfriends, I reckon when we were like in our early 20s, really got into Botox and fillers. And I've just kind of followed the journey with her. And she has now completely dissolved her face. And it's been, I actually forgot what she really looked like. Like, I don't know if I can say that. She looks great, by the way. But watching the treatments and just the amount of work that has gone into undoing all of these beauty cycles, because it's been very trend driven.

38:45Like there was a time, I guess, where she wanted to have bigger cheeks and lips. And so she really went all out in the filler department. And now she's reversing it all. So seeing everything kind of like come back to where it originally was, it's been really interesting. Like her passport from 10 years ago and her passport. We laugh in our group chat because we're like, who the fuck is that? That's so good. But that's my experience. Yeah. No, it's very true though, because people do kind of get blind to their own face because you're looking at your face every single day. And not that I see this in my particular clients because I don't administer those kinds of treatments, but even just with them observing their results.

39:26I always say take progress photos of your skin because trust me, you will come back and say to me, haven't noticed a difference. And then we look at your photos side by side and you're like, oh my God. But what I would say with this particular trend, like there's so many avenues here that we could explore because in this article, they talk about the effects of GLP-1 drugs that they talk about a little bit in this article, like our Ozenpix and things like that, and how that impacts the face with considerable weight loss. And then we've got surgical procedures, we've got injectables, we've got more invasive skin treatments.

39:56There are so many different things that we could potentially discuss here. I worked in a cosmetic clinic when I was 18 years old. And I worked with plastic surgeons up until I was probably like 22, 23, maybe 23. And when I started working there, it was so normal for everyone to just get things done at work because you work there. So it's completely normal. And so I would have lip filler done at 18 and this was before there was a laser clinic on every corner. This was unheard of. My friends thought I was insane, but it was normal to me because I worked with all of these older girls as well that were maybe in their thirties.

40:34And I was by far the youngest person working there. Desensitized. Yeah. And at that time, we didn't have any young girls coming in to have these kinds of treatments. It was all older women having Botox and fillers. You would need to be at least forties or fifties to be considering those kinds of treatments. And now it's very common to have 20 year olds walking in wanting preventative Botox. Yeah. I tried to find data to support this sentiment. I couldn't find anything in a local context, but I would say just general sentiment and my observation from people I follow on social media who are in their early twenties, getting it, my own friendship group, getting it at the ages of like 24, 25, even myself getting it at 28.

41:10I thought I was late. What? Yeah. It's getting younger and younger. It really is. But I also don't think this is a phenomenon because every procedure, surgical, non-invasive, injectable, whatever it is, comes with potential side effects or adverse reactions. Why are we suddenly surprised that there are these outcomes that we weren't anticipating? That's very normal with anything. Anything could have a side effect. But as I was saying before, I used to get lip filler when I was like 18. I hadn't had it for like six, seven years. I recently had it dissolved from above my actual lip in my upper lip because it was making my lip look through.

41:53It had migrated up there and so I had it dissolved and I did notice them kind of shrivel down a little bit more but also the discoloration went away. Wow. And it had been sitting in there for over six years but when I was having it first done, oh no, this has gone within a year. The body metabolizes it. It doesn't hang around. we don't know these things sometimes it's a very fast moving industry and it kind of takes a little while to unveil the things that you might find out down the track are negative side effects it's not always instantly after the treatment or the tweakment as they're saying in this article you know we see kind of anecdotal stuff around rf devices causing fat loss in the face and that's starting to come out a little bit more because they're getting more popular and you don't discover of these things until they become really popular and more and more people are having them and experiencing side effects and then you hear about them.

42:44Yeah. Because we touched on it a while ago and we're talking about Ozempic, right? And how it often like makes your face look a bit more gaunt. And so now people are going through different procedures to try and like rebuild their faces again. Like you're never going to know. And I think in the beauty cycle as well, I feel like at 34 years old, I have seen BBLs. I have seen so many different things. Like the list goes on, frozen foreheads, tiny hourglass figures, like painted on abs. We have seen everything be so in vogue. And now it's like BBRs are so out. Do you know what I mean? Like it's like, it's just this trend cycle that we're kind of stuck in.

43:18And I feel like the beauty industry as a whole, sometimes it does thrive on those insecurities. And I think once you start having procedures done, it must be so hard to stop because there's always a tweakment that can be made. Or even, I haven't actually started Botox yet, but I definitely will be. And I think when I go though, I'll be like the best client because I'll be like, what should I do? Should I fix this area? What do we do about that? You're a marketer's dream. I think it does come down to the provider because if you have a provider that really believes in their work, especially when it comes to injectables and surgical procedures, they are not going to treat you if they think you're going to look weird afterwards or they think that you are going to have negative side effects.

43:57And I've seen providers on TikTok and things like that because in Australia, we can't really show that stuff on social media, but overseas they can. You see these doctors doing a lot of dissolving and then they're refilling in certain spots just so that they can make it appear a little bit more natural. So there's a lot of things that come into this so-called phenomenon of tweakments and the treatment after the tweakment. But I think it's very layered. I would say a good practitioner as well, whether that be a clinical nurse or a doctor who's treating you, is sending you away if you're trying to ask for more things.

44:29They need to be able to say no. Because it is a slippery slope once you start. It's like, what else can I do? And all of those things. Someone who has integrity in their job and takes their responsibility quite seriously, I would say should be saying no to you. Yes. And also, I think the client or patient has more respect for you as well. I agree. Clients always will be like to me, oh, do I need this thing? I'm like, no, you don't. Don't spend money on it. Let's spend money here and then we'll worry about that later. All I can think about right now is that TV show on the US botched and like how they make fortunes on this.

44:59Yes. Well, yeah. I mean, In more doctors, as they said in this article, more doctors and injectors or providers are making money off corrections. Yeah. Which is scary. It is scary.

45:15All right. Our final headline for today's episode, brands want influencers to have full-time jobs. So a bit of background on this story. Outlander magazine recently shared a post on Instagram about brands wanting the influencers they work with to have full-time jobs, which actually got us thinking. We've had a few conversations about this off mic, but specifically about the state of influencing right now. In it, they wrote, brands are looking for influences with either full-time careers or creators who just see influencing as a side hustle rather than their full-time career. And why is this? Authenticity, of course, as it always is within the fashion industry right now.

45:51Take Kat from finance, for example. Her appeal is the fact that she's a working woman in finance and brands can align their pieces with that type of woman. Then we have Bus Auntie, a woman so authentically passionate about London buses being used by Burberry. It just makes complete sense. You might have seen this playing out online lately too, particularly on TikTok. Someone working an office job starts making content about their day-to-day life and accrues a sizing following for it. But once they get big enough and the paid brand deals start rolling in, they ditch their nine to five and their page changes almost overnight into full time influencer style content.

46:24Often creators who do this face a bit of backlash. People started following them because of their relatability and authenticity. And now their content consists of marches and pilates at midday and glitzy brand launches. Brands have cotton on to this and realizing the traditional style of influencer isn't resonating the way it used to. They've started working with people who have full-time jobs instead. What do you guys think? Do you think influencers who have more regular full-time jobs, do you find them more relatable or do you enjoy watching their content more? I don't necessarily lean one way or the other.

46:57However, what I will say is that I have noticed that brands definitely have more interest in that type of influencer. And I think it really comes down to how they want to engage their audience and their community. Who do they want to target? Because people, when they consume content, they want to see themselves in that person. And that's where they create this parasocial relationship. And they really have like a fondness for that person. They want to know what they're doing and they want to support them. When they can no longer recognize themselves in that person or admire them for what they're doing, it kind of means that they get disengaged.

47:32And I think they check out a little bit from that influencer. And I've seen this kind of happen time and time again, but complete tangent. Did you guys see that girl in the US who worked for Mac and she started vlogging her day and then she got fired? No. It was all over my feed because people were doing parodies of it on TikTok. because she started vlogging her day, but she worked at the airport. And so she was like going through the TSA. She was getting like the cash out of the cash register. She was putting people's transactions through. She was showing all of this like really highly confidential.

48:03And then she showed up being like, I've been fired from my job. People were like, what did you think was going to happen? Nora, I need to look that up. That is so funny. Oh my God, that's actually hilarious. She was trying to be a full-time girly on TikTok and it didn't go down very well, unfortunately for her. So the first influencer I actually thought about is that really big TikToker in the US, Michaela Nguero. Yeah. She originally worked at Ulta. And I remember when she blew up and launched her own skincare brand, which we actually spoke about on Stylish when it launched. She made a nod to the fact that they were also launching in Ulta.

48:36And that was like a nod to her original job. But I also feel like since she started really blowing up on social media, the sentiment did shift and she became less and less relatable. We see this all the time though. The comment sections. as soon as people are like, I'm leaving my full-time job, there's always someone in the comments that's like, oh, shame. That's why I liked you. Yes, literally. But you see that all the time. Yeah, you're right. It's interesting. That's incredible. So that started from the bottom. Now we hear that. I feel like she was the blueprint. When we were thinking about this feature, my mind immediately went to Michaela because that was her OG route to the big influence of stardom.

49:08And a lot of people criticize her now for not being relatable. Right. Yeah, which does feel like generally the sentiment is you go from being relatable, as you said, to not and you lose that connection piece with someone. Annika, do you prefer to follow people who work full-time or are you like Jo and you're indifferent? I feel like my content consumption needs, I'll say, have definitely evolved and progressed. And actually when we were talking about the soft mic, something we both find interesting about all of us is the fact that we have full-time roles and that we actually have areas of expertise.

49:41And I don't ever want to say that our jobs define us because I think we have so much more to offer than that. I've got so much debt. But we definitely, I think, have an inherent value add by having our roles and our areas of expertise. I now am gravitating towards more relatable content for sure. And probably, yeah, a lot of career-driven people as well. Yeah, I'm trying to work out. I think I'm split down the middle. I still follow a lot of traditional influencers and I still enjoy their content. In saying that, talking about it in the context of brands working with them, I would say that I'm more influenced by people who are still working full-time and the brand partnerships that they have because of that contextual alignment compared to a traditional influencer.

50:23To your point, Annika, there is that element of like I'm paid partnership, paid partnership, like I'm constantly being sold something. I think it comes down to, for me, the content in between is what I'm actually here for. So I can accept that every now and then there's a paid partnership that maybe I'm not as interested in, but all the other content is keeping me here. Yeah. So when I was researching for this episode, what I was thinking was this didn't feel like an entirely new concept to me. I do feel like this is just marketing repackaged in the format of a different environment. So what I mean by that is I kept thinking about the old school.

50:58I don't know if you guys remember these, the old school Dove ads on TV. And remember Dove's whole positioning was coming from an angle of relatability. So they always showed women, very diverse women, all different body types. And that was very much the selling point for them was that they were a brand that catered to all types of women and really abandoned this idea of what the traditional stereotype of beauty was. Now, those ads at the time garnered a lot of attention and were praised. Now, with the gift of hindsight, there's a lot more commentary and a few think pieces I've read around at the end of the day, it was still a marketing tactic to try and appear or create the illusion of being relatable.

51:39Yes. And why I wanted to bring this up was in the context of this conversation and this article, what I found really interesting was that that's still what we're doing. It's not that the influencers who work full time are more relatable. It's the illusion that they are more relatable. And that's what is appealing to the advertisers. And that's what they're trying to jump on. They're trying to use that creator in a way where it's like, oh, our brand's going to appear more relatable because we're working with someone who is giving the illusion of being more authentic or they've got more depth because they're working full-time and that adds a layer of authenticity compared to working with someone who is a full-time influencer and perhaps doesn't convey that type of message.

52:20Yeah, very true. Okay. Good take. Hot take. When I look at an influencer, I'm like, okay, let's say you did start here and now you're working full-time or you've got a full-time job and then you go out on your own. Where I stay with them is when they start their own business. And when they're offering something of value beyond the brand partnership or where I feel like that brand is something I'm invested in because I'm invested in that person. That's where I feel like they keep me. Do you know what I'm saying? I like that evolution. And I think as well, it's like there's also still that authenticity in that because they started somewhere in a really authentic place and now they've evolved into a brand that we already connect with.

52:58Like that makes sense to me. Yeah, absolutely. And I think influencers these days are considered, you know, if you're able to leave your full-time job, that's like the pinnacle. And like, you just get to lounge around all day and open free shit and unbox it and post it to your Instagram stories. But I actually do know someone who went from full-time to full-time creator, then back to part-time work. Yes. So Geordie Zevey is based in Melbourne. I used to work with her at Adore Beauty. She was working in a marketing role there. Then she obviously was creating content that whole time. She's an amazing fashion creator.

53:33She has amazing outfits. You should follow her if you don't already. But she left her full-time role to become a full-time creator. And she actually was completely kind of uninspired when she became a full-time creator because she was like, I kind of forgot how to create content. And like, I was working in a job that required eight hours of brainpower. And then I went to a job that I could tick off in an hour a day. And then I was just sitting around kind of waiting for the next thing to pop up, seeing all the things I wasn't invited to or not included in. And that just made me feel like I wasn't good enough to be there.

54:03And so then she went into a part-time role. So she now works for a fashion brand, creating content two and a half days a week, and then she does content on the side still. So she's kind of got that balance of, she said it gave her more purpose, having a role that she had to go to, you know, and be in an office with other people and then be creating content as the fun thing she gets to do on the side for herself. But focusing on something other than herself throughout the week was important for her own balance. And I think it kind of might be a bit challenging for people to go from a full-time role where you're in an office with people every day and you're using your brain in a very different way to then having to be creative every single day of your life and think of new concepts and new fun things to do and new ways to engage your audience.

54:46I get very fatigued by content creation. I don't think I could ever do it full-time. And I actually do respect creators that can do it full-time and continually churn out really cool content because I'm like, I could never. Yeah. It actually does take a lot of brainpower and creativity, but there are people that have left their full-time role to do that and gone, actually, this isn't for me. I'd be curious to know if she had more brand deals when she worked full-time than what she did. I didn't ask that question. Okay. Yeah. That's the piece that is interesting to me. Like, does it actually impact the value of your output?

55:20I would say there are definitely creators that transcend above that and then again, go on to start their own brand. So instead of promoting other brands, they promote themselves and then continue to make revenue from that. Yeah. There's a few ways to do it, I guess. There's no strict blueprint, but I think we've seen a lot of massive creators end up going into creating their own very successful brands. Thank you so much for joining us. And of course, thanks very much to you, Anika Joshu-Smith and you, Rhiannon and Joyce, for being here today. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ish at shamelessmedia.com.au, or you can slide into our DMs over at stylishpod.

55:52And we can't forget to thank our audio engineer, Liam Clayton, and the Shameless Media team, head of podcast, Lucy Hunt, and senior podcast producer, Kate Emma Burke. We'll be right back with you next Wednesday. See you then. Bye, guys.

56:12This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.