Is this beauty controversy on your feed, too?

15:06Kaitlyn Bristowe:We'll play a little bit of that for you now. Most embarrassing thing I have ever posted or the thing that changes everything. If you don't know me, hi, I'm Nimi. I'm a sports broadcaster, football, tennis, combat sports, worked for ESPN, interviewed Laminya Marl, Neymar, Drogba, Piquet. The list really goes on. And I don't just do broadcast. Social media content, millions of views.

15:31Kristin Cavallari:I know how to tell a story. I know how to make someone feel like they are in the moment. And now, Hugh, the embarrassment. All of this is still not enough for me to be working at the World Cup in 38 days. Let me tell you i have been hustling the last eight months to make it happen i screen tested for a major broadcaster in the region i flew to la actually got in front of fox sports meetings in london with brands so many calls so many connects and still one of the biggest sporting events on the

16:04Kaitlyn Bristowe:planet and i have nothing look i don't just love football i'm really bloody good at what i do and I'm already going to be in the States for the whole six weeks. So for some deluded, hopeful reason, I still believe there's a chance for me.

16:20Kristin Cavallari:I don't know if that's just silly. I guess with quite literally nothing to lose, brands, partners, sponsors looking for on-brand creators at the FIFA World Cup

16:32Kaitlyn Bristowe:who actually get the sport, call me. My diary has a very suspicious gap in it. Just saying. Now, she didn't just post this video, which went viral. She then followed up with multiple videos and it became like a series and people were really getting on board with it and really rooting for her to get a role at the World Cup. And she has since posted that she's officially landed a role as an official fan ambassador for Visa at the FIFA World Cup.

17:01Kristin Cavallari:I loved this so much. I loved the initial video probably the most because I think the opening line that she says is this is going to be either really embarrassing or... And in the Stephen Bartlett interview where he says embarrassment is the price of success, I don't think anything resonates more. It's like it's really embarrassing to upload something like this. She's had to admit that she's had all these call-ups, all these test reads, all of these interviews, and she still hasn't landed something. And it's like, OK, I may not get anything out of this, but I'm going to give it a red hot go. And I love that that went viral, but I think one viral video can sometimes be brought down to luck.

17:39Kristin Cavallari:So the fact that she did this six-week series, multiple videos in this winning format. I think I counted it was somewhere between 15 to 20 videos.

17:48Kaitlyn Bristowe:That's a lot of work.

17:50Kristin Cavallari:Yeah. A lot of work but also what it does is showcase her ability to communicate and storytell which if you are going to be a presenter or an ambassador or a content creator, you have to be able to do. And I think she did it so superbly, again, in that winning format where a lot of the mechanics and, you know, format was the same. It was really, really clever. The song. She used the same song. She used the XX song over and over again. So you knew exactly what was coming when she posted the video. So even something as simple as that, she's such a content person. I love that stuff. Now, obviously, this is it on a global scale.

18:28Kristin Cavallari:we're talking about the FIFA World Cup, but we have seen this happen a lot, especially locally, for roles particularly in social media. What are some brands that come to mind when you think about this?

18:40Kaitlyn Bristowe:Jagger and Stone, Jazz Handmade, Remy by Riley, Sofa Dofa, yeah, All for Mimi.

18:46Kristin Cavallari:The brand was overseas, but the person applying was local, Zara Jarvis. I saw a lot of her journey on Instagram, but then I saw like the kind of final like wrap up on LinkedIn. And I felt so much pride about that. I was like, go girl. She like flew over there within like 24 hours. Yeah. From memory. That's a whirlwind situation. Yeah. And I remember her uploading the video of telling her boss. Yes. Like imagine having to be like, hey, so might still need this job. Yeah. But gonna go apply for that one and gonna need annual leave as of tomorrow. Yeah. When you see this kind of content. I feel like what often happens is there is kind of like the people's person that the community and audience will all kind of rally behind to support.

19:31Kristin Cavallari:Do you kind of see a risk for brands or a reward for brands with that happening? Yeah, it does stress me out a little bit if I'm being perfectly honest. Can I ask, does it stress you out for the person creating it or the brand? Both. I mean, I am such an advocate for shooting your shot and like getting rid of the cringe of it all. Part of me getting a job here was because I posted online, like because I posted TikToks, because I talked online, because I gave it a shot and I was a contributor here. So mine wasn't as like, I didn't go viral and there wasn't like a groundswell campaign to get me employed here.

20:08Kristin Cavallari:But I am such an advocate for posting the thing online and giving it a go. because who knows what might come of it. And the worst thing that could happen is that zero people see it, you know. But from a brand perspective, the thing that stresses me out a little bit is what if there is this groundswell where you've essentially got like the people's princess, right? Like someone that people are really going behind. But when you get to the interview stage or the actual skill set stage, they're actually not that matched to the role. Yeah. What happens then? Well, then the rejection becomes public.

20:43Kristin Cavallari:Yeah. And it feels like the brand's rejecting the person rather than a HR department rejecting the role, which is essentially how it does work in the real world. When someone doesn't get a role, it's just privately done behind closed doors. Yeah.

20:56Kaitlyn Bristowe:And there's a risk as well of opening up these potential candidates or eventual employees to backlash online or like a bit of hatred and negativity online that maybe they didn't realise they were signing up for when they put their video up to be part of the hiring process is that everyone else might really love someone else that's applied for the role and that has created a piece of content and then you've got kind of like the enemy.

21:21Kristin Cavallari:It's like are you new here?

21:23Kaitlyn Bristowe:Literally but that is a big risk not only for the brand because they're opening themselves up to that but they're also opening up a potential candidate to that who might be really well suited to the role and then they give that person the role and everyone's

21:35Kristin Cavallari:like fuck that person I haven't seen you yeah yeah yeah wait we lost our people's princess and now we've got you yeah yeah it's interesting that is a really good point I hadn't even thought of that one thing that I always think though is the risk of not having something like that for roles like social media or brand or things that might be a little bit more creatively fueled like design or content creation because I think if you are in a social media role being limited to a CV that most of the time now is either sitting in a HR inbox or running through AI driven platforms to filter out is not the truest display of what you will be doing day to day and how your creativity shines.

22:14Kristin Cavallari:I agree. Which is why any time I've ever worked with any brand, I'm like case study, case study, case study, case study. I don't think that in order to be successful in hiring someone to run your social channels, you need to run a public campaign. Yeah. But I do understand how it helps. A public campaign is so funny. It is. It's like a full election. And also, this is really smart from a brand perspective as well, because look at All for Mimi and Bailey. Yeah. Daniel from Girls with Gems and Bailey from All for Mimi. I think my two crushes. Like, my internet crushes.

22:45Kaitlyn Bristowe:I absolutely love the relationship between Soph and Bailey as well. Like, obviously, you know, she's the employer and he's the employee, but they just come across as best friends. Yeah. Which is really nice and it's very endearing to watch on socials as well. Yeah.

22:59Kristin Cavallari:I would say also Bailey made something that was very unique. It's something that you probably are seeing across more and more people now, but I think Bailey was the first to make it in the Australian landscape. So he had an unique idea that, to be honest, like you might have thought was cringe, but he made it cool. If anyone hasn't seen it, do you want to rake out? He took a really native route to TikTok and it was social media assistant and he was talking to the camera. He had all these transitions. It was very funny. So you saw his personality up front and it was addressed straight to Soph as well.

23:35Kristin Cavallari:You know, it was like something different and it cut through. I don't think if someone made that again now, it would have the same groundswell effect.

23:43Kaitlyn Bristowe:Yeah. It's also just a great way to see a personality higher. Yeah. Like to immediately go, they're going to be a culture fit.

23:50Kristin Cavallari:Yes, we can teach you on the job. And it is that generation though, and not to dis millennials, because I'm not saying we can't do it but I just think Gen Z have been brought up on this idea that by having an idea creating a piece of content packaging it up to storytell and have it in a really like visually appealing format is their DNA so it is the perfect way for them to shoot their shot and showcase like it's interesting that you say you don't think it could happen again because I do think for the right brand if you kind of shot it in a way I feel like we've seen it in this FIFA instance like what would it be to be like hey you know I don't know Louis I'm gonna raise my legs every day for a week and tell you why I'm the best to run your social channels if they were hiring.

24:30Kristin Cavallari:It has to be like a specific idea like I think there's been multiple circumstances where people have tried to copy and paste Bailey yeah like here there has to be some sort of cut through because it's like on TikTok people see stuff all the time there has to be something that's a little bit different about it to come through. The thing that makes me laugh a little bit is I cannot see this maybe happening for like an accounts payable person.

24:53Kaitlyn Bristowe:I was just going to say this only applies to media and marketing roles. There is no other industry this would be appropriate. Imagine if it became a thing like to get into the police force, you had to do like a video on TikTok.

25:05Kristin Cavallari:It's like on zero. This is how quickly I touch time.

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26:14Kristin Cavallari:Okay, so I'm going to be the one responsible for taking us through the Patrick Tarr blush controversy that's been playing out online. There's been a lot of conversation, there's been a lot of debate and a lot of opinion and a lot of facts. And today what we want to do is not necessarily give more opinions, but dissect all the nuances and conversations that are happening online.

26:35Kaitlyn Bristowe:Because I was struggling to follow the story a little bit. I saw like little bits and pieces then are like, hang on, wait, how's this person involved? And so this is, I need this recap.

26:42Kristin Cavallari:It was a very big moment of the meme with all the red strings. And we were sort of going, do we cover it? Don't we cover it? And then we went, hang on, let's do like a bit of a chronological order of events.

26:53Kaitlyn Bristowe:Well, he did the interview with Emma Greed. And I think that's what got us talking again, because it kind of passed us. And then we were like, hang on a second, let's rewind. We've got to come back to this. Exactly.

27:01Kristin Cavallari:And perfect place to start, Joyce. So Patrick Tarr appeared on Emma Greed's podcast last week. On the podcast, he spoke about both his career and business journey, as well as all of the recent online controversy between him and makeup artist painted by Esther. So if you're wondering how this all sort of started, in late May, celebrity makeup artist Patrick Tarr, in his namesake brand, released a collection called Transition Blush featuring blush duos. If you haven't heard of what a transition blush is before, it's a makeup technique that creates a really soft, lifted, gradient look between your under eye concealer and cheek blush.

27:36Kaitlyn Bristowe:It's like ombre between your, yeah, it starts almost at the start

27:40Kristin Cavallari:of your eye. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like one big, like a gradient from like eye to cheek. It's like blush. Yeah. Yeah. I love the word ombre. Yeah. Love that, Jo. So according to the cut, they described it as a seamless transition from one product to the next, leaving a complexion that appears airbrushed, sculpted and flushed. Or our conversion ombre. So Patrick Tarr is very much known for blush duos. I think if you asked the average beauty gal what you think of when you think Patrick Tarr, those sort of cream and powder blush duos. I do have one of them at home. You like it? I do. Yes. Okay, great.

28:18Kristin Cavallari:I haven't, I don't, I've never tried it. Sells a blush every three minutes. Oh, wow. Fun fact. Yeah. Look, and in the podcast episode with Emma Grades, she did refer to him as the blush guy. So, you know, this isn't just our opinion. It's very much what he's known for in the beauty world. Once that collection launched, things kind of turned pretty quickly online via social media. And according to the same article I referenced earlier, they said Tar seems to have designed his new products specifically for a technique, which was popularized by Gozi Esther Edema, who is best known as painted by Esther, a makeup artist very much known for this doll-like blush glam and he's getting criticism for not crediting her enough during the rollout.

28:59Kristin Cavallari:We'll use her username Painted by Esther throughout the segment because that's how she likes to be referred to online. She sometimes even says PBE. Yeah. It's a bit like How I Go By MST. Yeah. You know? There's one piece we want to kind of earmark here which is that Painted by Esther didn't create this technique or name this term. And she doesn't

29:17Kaitlyn Bristowe:claim to as well. She's very specific about not claiming to have come up with this technique.

29:23Kristin Cavallari:And it's actually other makeup artists from way back when, you know, famous names like Kevin Aquan, Danessa Mirix and Pat McGrath, that she's very much credited as the inspiration behind this. If you haven't seen what Kevin Aquan is known and done, I really urge you to check it out. Like absolute innovator in this space. Just a side note, you're probably thinking of a mascara at Mecca, but like one of the most famous names. I was thinking of the lash killer. Oh yeah. Okay. that too. But, you know, gradient blush, so to speak, isn't something that was created by Painted by Esther, but it very much is something that has been popularised in recent times and re-emerged by her.

29:58Kristin Cavallari:And, you know, she has created that look on her celebrity clients, like Love Island's Alandria and performers like Dochi and SZA. I would say that's where I've seen it the most, Alandria. And that's probably a point we should touch on as well, is a lot of the people she does this technique on are people with darker skin tones, so black and brown women. And the overwhelming commentary is how beautiful this high contrast blush looks on dark skin tones. And, you know, it's this trend that really has been created for people of colour, which is, you know, doesn't happen that often. So yeah, this was actually one that really stood out in the algorithm.

30:41Kristin Cavallari:Totally. And a lot of things now are not necessarily created by someone, but they're repopularised and brought back to the front fold by their creation. Well, it's like, why am I seeing it again? Like, why am I seeing it again now? And I would say a lot of that came from Painted by Esther. Yeah. So when Patrick uploaded a tutorial using the new transition blush, the comment section was flooded pretty quickly, to be honest, with people accusing him of ripping off Painted by Esther. And I think it's really important we take a moment to note here that a lot of time black creators, brand founders are not often credited for their work, their origins, their popularity, or their role in things like this re-emerging.

31:24Kristin Cavallari:It's not so much just the invention, it's the creation or regurgitation of something. Specifically for black women, I would say they do create these moments around these specific techniques. And a lot of the time they can then be popularised by someone else without the credit. Yeah. It's worth noting as well, this isn't the first time Patrick Tars had to make an apology for something similar. So this is back in 2024. Patrick also had to make a public apology as reported by people to content creator Avona Sunshine after she posted a TikTok video claiming Patrick Tars' brand still had not paid her.

32:01Kristin Cavallari:And in the video, she's snapping Tars' blushes and contour palettes in half, or she claims she never received payment for promotional work. She snaps a lot of compacts in that video. Avona said in the video, I'm sick of seeing companies profit off the black dollar and they're not paying black creators. Yeah. So this also got referenced in the interview by Emma Great. And we've got the clip to play for you now.

32:24Kaitlyn Bristowe:I think this conversation became even bigger because several years back, I had an incident with this creator. Her name is Ivana Sunshine, who is a creator that I met through Sephora Squad. And I loved her energy. I saw her content. It was so authentically her. I reached out to my team to work with her on a brand level. And there was a delayed payment on an invoice, which was fixed. But not knowing back then how this happened, I hated that that happened. And it was really important for me to take a step back and pause for a second and really understand what happened. Realizing that this was an administrative issue, we did a complete overhaul on our accounting process to make sure that this never happens again.

33:22Kaitlyn Bristowe:But I also understand that, like, when you are building a brand, mistakes happen. Like, people are not perfect. And I am not perfect. Okay.

33:37Kristin Cavallari:So if we bring it back to the present, Patrick Tarr is then seen to be using this technique on a number of his clients, one of which is Love Island UK star Maura Higgins. but he took the additional steps of lodging an application to trademark the term transition blush with the USPTO for his product release. We're going to play another clip for you now in his response to this.

33:58Kaitlyn Bristowe:And when we talk about like the trademark issue. Because that's what people have got their knickers in a twist about, right? Like people feel like the fact that you trademarked it is the overstep. Like that's the thing that's got people like super riled up apart from the fact that she's not involved and her name isn't mentioned it's like you've gone out and taken this technique and put a trademark around it so what people don't understand like i did not trademark the technique you cannot trademark a technique you trademark the name i trademark the name and i trademark every single product name well and i just want to and

34:33Kristin Cavallari:i don't want to cut you off but i do want to just say so do i and given the size and scope and scale of these brands. This is not an opinion, this is just a fact that it is very common for a brand to trademark the product's name, particularly when brands of this scale are probably looking to be sold at some point. I would be very shocked if Patrick Tarr was not actively looking to have someone buy this brand. We are constantly on this podcast talking about who's buying what. I mean, at one point, I think we were like playing roulette about, is it L 'Oreal? Is it Estee Lauder? Is it These are very common things that big brands at scale looking to protect their IP are doing.

35:11Kaitlyn Bristowe:And I will say as well, the trademark has yet to be approved too.

35:15Kristin Cavallari:Yes, yes. And I think that delineation that he's clearly trying to make in this episode is that he wasn't trying to trademark the technique. Yeah. But the name. The name is part of the technique. Exactly. Yeah. I think the two things feel very tied together. I understand he's saying that they're not trademarking the technique, but it was popularised because of the name as well. One thousand cent. And if we're going to get really technical about this from a law perspective, if a creator then goes and makes a video about transitional blushes as a paid collaboration, that's boosted as a paid ad, that is technically a trademark infringement because you could say it's implying it's that product.

35:52Kaitlyn Bristowe:Well, that's kind of the argument here, right, is that painted by Esther, then her income is potentially impacted by the fact that she can't go talking about this technique that she's popularised herself.

36:03Kristin Cavallari:Very recently, she had a video with COSIS where this was the technique she was talking about and referring to. There's so much work that's done before you get to a name. So I think she's done the research to test all of these things out. So by this trademark, it's not just about the product. I do think it is hindering her future collaborations and her future creativity as well. I'm going to go one step further that I wouldn't be at all surprised if she was considering making her own line. Yeah. That would have been tied to that name as well. Oh, you're so right. Yeah. I didn't even think of that.

36:35Kristin Cavallari:So marketing girl. Yeah, yeah. So on May 24, Patrick posted a TikTok he claims was filmed on March 5th, where he credits painted by Airstar. I really want to note here, not in the video, but in a caption where he credits her work for popularising the technique and that he's been doing this look since 2021 and tags her account in the caption. And to clarify as well, there were at least five or six videos about this range already live on TikTok before this video went up. Exactly. This wasn't the, I'm launching it and I'm crediting her in the first of that. So painted by Esther then responds with a video via TikTok on the same day responding to the situation we've got an excerpt from that video we want to play now

37:17Kaitlyn Bristowe:i'm actually getting tired of constantly being um spoken for and being scared to speak because i am a black woman if that was really a part of your thing a part of your a key ingredient in how you do something you would have he would have been marketed it let's be for real you know it's not so I'm just I'm getting tired of the constant chitter chatter it's annoying it's very annoying God bless every single person that sees it for what it is God bless every single person that sees me for what I am that sees my work for what it is again I will reiterate listen I did not start anything I am 29 years old that would be ludicrous of me to claim ownership for anything but what I did do and what you will not

38:07Kristin Cavallari:belittle is my influence babe. I think that video spotlights how deeply thought out that response was it was really raw and emotional and I think like so valid every corner of it and I think whether you agree that Patrick Tarr should have made that product or not you can't deny that this was popularised by her and she's deeply hurt by this and very justified in that hurt. Yeah. I can really hear how much creative effort has gone into this because the thing you see on social isn't the first try. Like she has perfected this over time. She has tried and tried again and getting that, you know,

38:53Kaitlyn Bristowe:technique perfect has taken time. And to create such recognition around a make-up technique or a style, that takes a lot of work. Like to actually be recognised. People will always say like, oh, that's a painted by Esther look. Like you can see who's a client of hers. That doesn't happen overnight.

39:11Kristin Cavallari:It takes a long time. And also her inspiration are not YouTubers. Like Kevin Aquan is a very, he's a deceased makeup artist. References. Yes. Like we are going back over editorials. We're going back over fashion shows. We're reading books. Like, it's not just a four-second clip or a photo of a finished face that is the IP. It's the expertise and time that goes into it. Look, all of this to say, we're saying how recognised her work is, how prominent she is in this space. You might be sitting there wondering, well, did Patrick Tarr's team ever think to collaborate with her or to put her front and centre in this campaign?

39:46Kristin Cavallari:The answer is yes, according to Patrick Tarr via the podcast. He said that they did reach out about a collection collaboration of which she declined. He said to Emma, I personally reached out to Esther. My team reached out to Esther and unfortunately she declined the opportunity because she wasn't taking paid collaborations at the time. I really wanted to work with creators that loved blush.

40:07Kaitlyn Bristowe:May I theorize that their strategy as a brand was that they wanted to create this product and they were banking on her saying yes to that collaboration. And when she turned around and said, no, I'm not available for it. They went, oh shit.

40:21Kristin Cavallari:Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. I actually think that makes a lot of sense about the point you made, Mads, about if she is maybe bringing out her own range. It's like, why would I go to you because I've put in all the hard work. I don't want to just be a paid partnership collab post. I want to be front and center because I've done the work. Or even if she's not creating that product, I don't want you having a collection named after a phrase I've coined. Yeah. Yeah. Going back to the episode with Emma Greed, I actually listened earlier this week and I have to be honest, I did feel like a lot of the answers were being fed to him.

41:03Kristin Cavallari:Not fed to him, but there was a lot of handholding through this interview where I think when she initially throws to the apology, you can hear him kind of start to talk about it. But the actual summary, I think, comes from Emma. And we're going to play that clip.

41:19Kaitlyn Bristowe:this launch has been a very hard launch for me. Like I created this like with like, with like such heart. And, um, it feels to me, Patrick, like you kind of understand that launching this particular product without a mention of her influence of the technique kind of felt like an erasure of her influence. And again, I think she's been very vocal. She didn't create the technique. She's somebody that's more recently popularized the technique, But the fact that you guys went out with it in the way that you did feels like she should have somehow come up and been credited and she wasn't. And because it so frequently happens, specifically with black female creators and artists, it has it's escalated into something that is disproportionate to what you would have perhaps hoped for, considering that you went out to her.

42:13Kaitlyn Bristowe:but it feels to me like there's some sense of remorse or some sense of understanding or I'm misunderstanding. Yeah, I'm really sorry for like, I am genuinely sorry for like the hurt and the frustration that I have caused and that for anyone who has ever felt like overlooked or not recognized on like their contributions, like that was never my intent. My intent was only to create a product to allow people to make this technique like more, more accessible at home.

42:42Kristin Cavallari:I think she didn't probably want a fluffy answer here. She wanted to kind of get to the core of what the issue was. And I'm really glad she did, you know, really steer down this avenue. To be honest, Emma's been through similar things before. She mentioned an occasion around a face mask with someone reaching out to her saying that you've, you know, copied our product. And she said that she then reached out to them and cancelled all the products altogether. There was also the skims and kimono situation that she would have had to go through as well. So that's probably one of the reasons that I would say he's chosen to go on this podcast.

43:17Kristin Cavallari:I think the strategy to go on Emma Grade as a long form podcast was a very deliberate one because I don't think the usual apology strategy that we see from brands when they mess up, which is three or four sliding Instagram stills that's usually written in the notes app, like they've poured their heart out and, you know, it's straight from the founder's mouth would have worked in this instance, particularly not in Patrick Tarr's case, because this is not the first time we have seen a controversy surrounding a black creator.

43:44Kaitlyn Bristowe:And to give you a bit of a summary as well, for those people that have listened to this whole set up and are like, wait, let me just get to the crux of it. So the issues are the trademarked name, obviously limits painted by Esther's opportunities in future. The powder puff, she argues, especially in her video, why didn't he create a powder of pop then if he thinks that this is part of his usual technique that he follows, which is very signature of her technique. The other thing was copying some wording that she used in an instructional video. She used the word the back of my palm when she said that was actually a mistake.

44:19Kaitlyn Bristowe:I should have said back of my hand. But he says in his video, back of my palm as well. And she's like, that's a very clear, you know, someone's watched my video very closely. And then also his business partner, Reema, booked Esther for a makeup application, like a, what do they call it? Yeah. A paint and go or something? Yeah.

44:38Kristin Cavallari:It was meant to be that she would just do it and then leave. Yes. But then there was a...

44:43Kaitlyn Bristowe:But then the agent calls Esther before the appointment and says, well, they want to film it. Is that okay? And she says in her video, I wasn't okay with that. So I canceled the appointment because I don't normally take things on like that. So that was her kind of spidey senses going off. So there's like several different touch points that have made this escalate into what it is currently. But that is the general summary of what people are picking out. And I've gone through the comments and kind of seen all these common threads. And again, a lot of that anger is around taking something from a black creator that she should have absolutely been credited for and fairly been credited for.

45:19Kristin Cavallari:Yeah.

45:19Kaitlyn Bristowe:When there's a long history

45:20Kristin Cavallari:of that happening in the beauty space. Yeah. Particularly in the beauty space. And that's all for today's episode of Stylish. If you enjoyed this episode today, we also have a weekly Stylish newsletter that drops every Wednesday. It's a roundup of our best recommendations, our best tips, interviews. The link to sign up is in the show notes. Thank you so much to the team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. And, of course, thank you to my co-host Maddy and Jo. And thank you, Naima, for being here. Thanks so much. See you next Tuesday. Next Tuesday. Wednesday. bye bye

46:00Kristin Cavallari:this podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land always was always will be Aboriginal land