Shay Mitchell’s skincare line is…for kids?

22:38And you know Zara you own Shameless Media you have ample data of who our listener is and what they do and what they're willing to spend on things right. So I imagine that when you made Shameless merch different at times because some of that merch is designed for charity, some of it is not, that you are coming at it going, what is the average price point that we feel, based on that insight, we would sell our products for? Can I actually be honest about that? Yeah. If I can. Well, if I can. There's no one else in this room who can stop it. If you can. Which would be like Michelle. That is priced so much lower than it should be, particularly the Shop by Shameless Media merch.

23:16Those margins are almost too low for us at the moment. And that's what we are doing some really big, having some really big conversations about, which is how do we make this viable? Like if people are desperate for merch, how do we make this something that we can sustain as a business? Because I am so scared about releasing something that people think is too expensive or out of touch. Like it is incredibly, like tiniest but it's an incredibly stressful thing to do. That's why I'm forever impressed by people that go into fashion because it's a hard thing to crack. It's a really hard thing to crack.

23:45What I challenge here is there would have always been something for someone to complain about, right? Like I'm not going to sit here and say these aren't high price points, right? That's more expensive than a diptyque candle. But for me, they've gone and done this. We have no idea of the minimum order quantities. And as they've said at scale, that changes price point. You know, if they had have gone and made it with the shittiest, cheapest fabrics and had it an accessible price point for every single listener, someone would have been angry about their lack of sustainability. Do you know what I mean?

24:16I'm sorry. Just someone like there are so many opinions now. I just feel like no one can get it right especially not female founders. I could not agree with you more Mads like I hate to just be you know a broken record to say exactly the same thing but I think you've spoken about it before on the Shameless podcast around what about me isn't it's like the bean soup reference of like well oh well if I can't have that well like there's something wrong with it then it's like well it is as Grace said in her video if they had made it with a cheaper fabric and it was at a more affordable price point, people would be questioning that as well.

24:50And she did mention it is a higher quality fabric. They would have had to have that candle mold made to have that particular shape. But yeah, I just think it's one of those situations where they can price it however the fuck they want because it's their brand. Yeah, for sure. And you do not have to buy into it. That's the thing. Like no one is like holding your bank card forcing you to tap. Like no one's like double tapping that up with your phone in your face face id face yeah right two hundred dollars for the road no one is and i think it's so what grace's point in this video there was one that was so bang on and it was something like we are so annoyed when we think influencers do quote-unquote nothing but create content we find it lazy or we say oh they don't work that hard but we make it absolutely impossible for an influencer who wants to go out and build a business and grace talks so much about how when you build.

25:41Building a business is basically just solving a series of problems. That is literally your life all day, every day. Anyone who's ever built anything will know that to be true. It can be a nightmare sometimes because there are constantly things going wrong. To do that in public and to be watched while you're doing that gives no woman, particularly women in the public eye, any incentive to continue to build. I mean, I loved the point that Grace had in this video as well, which was when are we ever going to let people just try anymore? Like, it's really cool to try things. It's not cool to like take advantage of people or like maybe not think through an idea, but it is cool generally to try if you're not hurting anyone.

26:17And a fellow founder said to me recently, she said to me about what we do at Shameless Media, you guys don't half-bake ideas. You wait till they are fully formed before they launch. It was like said as a compliment, but I realized as I was watching this video that we don't have any ability to half-bake before we go live. That some businesses have the ability, if there is a male founder attached to them, to sort of build the plane as they fly it. I would like to build this plane as I'm flying it more, but we can't. Yeah. It's so interesting you say this because obviously, you know, my career has had interaction with both female and male founders or female and male leadership.

26:57And what I have had a clear observation of is that men go, we'll figure it out as we go and women won't do it until they feel like it is 99.99 % there. And that is, I think, just an innate female thing. And maybe it is because of criticism like this and we can extend it beyond just influences. Like had we have just made Kim Kardashian stay in her lane as a reality star, we wouldn't have skims. If Hailey Bieber had have just stayed a model, we wouldn't have had road. Like I'm, you know, Selena Gomez, you know, we wouldn't have had rare. Like I can list this out, but why is it that at the larger scale, it's like we're outraged at the start and then we kind of let them go.

27:39But I feel like this micro middle level, we are so angry and I'm trying to build something at the moment. I'm working on that. I've spoken about it. I am petrified to put a product out with a price point and people go, how dare you? You have excluded me. I feel that is an attack on me and I would never want anyone to feel excluded from something that I've done. But businesses aren't made to make zero dollars. They're made to make profit. And you need to build a business that can sustain and grow. I'm talking to the wrong person here. Like you would know this, but you're talking to the right person.

28:14I would have said five years ago, you'd be stupid to start a business if you didn't have some sort of social media following or didn't have a very strategic social media plan. I'm of the opinion now that you shouldn't have a social following and you should still have a significant social plan ahead of you. But I honestly think it just doesn't leave you that room to test and learn. And as a first time business owner, it's really challenging. Like on the scale that they're at, where they have one of the biggest, most popular podcasts, they would just like lambs to the slaughter. I hate to use that term, but.

28:45No, I agree with you. I also saw this TikTok that was asking why after eight hours, eight hours that the collection hadn't sold out it was like liked by thousands of people and they were like this particular creator was like but so many other influencers collections sold out and they like named the other influencers who sold out and I I really was like found this fascinating because I'm like we really are going for anything right now because not one of us knows how many units units they ordered like that selling out doesn't mean much anymore I thought most of us knew that because you could order three things and say we've sold out.

29:22Yeah. And it's selling out as a marketing pointer. 1000%. That is a strategy. You can order 100 units or just allow 100 units onto your site that day so that you have the allure of being like sold out in six minutes. Like you can have one thing or a thousand. I'm like, they just bought clearly the amount they thought would cover demand and it's available because had it have sold out, you would have also been really fucking angry about that. If it sold out in half an hour, people would have been furious. But I find this so interesting now that the expectation that when, you know, an influencer or someone in the public eye launches a product, that it is a failure if it doesn't sell out in eight hours.

30:00Like these are quite absurd expectations or, you know, thoughts to have around what a product should do and how quickly it should be sold. But beyond that, like I'm not against us having conversations about how something is marketed and whether it was nailing its consumer and all of those kinds of things. But this I found really interesting that it was deemed a quote unquote failure from the top because it hadn't sold out in eight hours. And this wasn't a small TikTok. This, yeah, it wasn't a small TikTok. I saw this TikTok as well. I was like, really? How? How do we not realise that this is fine?

30:31This just means stock has been allocated accordingly. I've followed this so closely because it scares the living shit out of me. This doesn't make me want to launch anything. So let's, can we talk about this for a second? And when you eventually launch your amazing business, have you said what it is? No. Sorry. Imagine that. Hard launch. Hasn't stopped people asking me randomly on the straight end. Do you feel like you'll need to take people on the journey a bit to explain the why of this is why something costs this much? Like I feel like a lot of female founders do that. And, yes, it solves a problem in that, like, people, once they get the context, pick at you less, but sometimes it feels annoying that you might have to.

31:15I'm conflicted, really honestly, because I want to break down that system. Do I think I can do that alone? No, I'm not that naive as much as I'd love to think I've got that superpower. But rarely does a man get on Instagram or TikTok and create a real breaking down his pricing structure or strategy. I have built a P &L model so that I can wholesale a product and I have done it so that I can sell direct to consumer. Surprise, I will make a lot more when I sell directly to a consumer than I make when I sell to a retailer. But I had this exact conversation with a very, very successful female founder recently who was in town and we went and had dinner and she said to me, like, are you prepared for people to question you and interrogate you and whether you deserve to have started a brand and what you know and how dare you sell it for that?

32:01And I'm like, for me it's not an overly expensive product but for someone else it will be and that scares me do you know what's really interesting when we launched stylish Michelle and I copped it a lot really yeah why TikTok that we thought we could go into fashion as people that have no experience in fashion how dare we enter that space yeah and like I look back now and I'm like well I think we've proven a good formula here hey we weren't the hosts you guys are amazing and be like this has got pretty good staying power this pillar like I don't really feel like I have to explain it anymore. But straight away when we stepped slightly outside our zone, people came for us straight away.

32:37Can I ask you a question? You may. I mean, that's the whole point of this podcast. Don't you love that I had to ask anyway? Do you feel differently now? You've come out and said that you will be launching a parenting podcast. Do you feel differently because Michelle is a mother that you don't feel the same anxiety going, what right do we have? Well, here's the funny thing. We knew it was going to be the next pillar before either of us had kids. Okay. Because we knew there was clearly a gap there. We just didn't know what it was. Now that Michelle's a parent, she can very confidently say, well, this is very clearly the gap.

33:05It was probably arrogant of us from the start to say parenting is the next pillar, but before we'd even had kids, but I didn't feel embarrassed about that. I was like, I think there's something there. We just don't know what. So do I feel more confident? I think the more we step outside our comfort zone and people see that and it works, the less blowback we get. But I am sure if there's something else we do that makes us, because I think with the fashion thing, people were like, oh, so they think they're fashion people now. Yeah. And there is something embarrassing about that. Like people are embarrassed on your behalf.

33:34Like, oh my God, I can't believe you think you're a fashion person. So fashion is kind. Fashion and beauty is different. Do you know what? It's so interesting. That trying thing you spoke about before, I said at this dinner with this founder who was from overseas, I'm embarrassed to not try something now. And I think when I was younger, I was more embarrassed to give something a go and fail. And now I'm more embarrassed to not have tried at all. and I think that it is really cool to try. But now I'm like, all right, we've just got to put the chips on the table and go. I'm very excited for you, Mads.

34:06I think it's going to be a very fun step. I've had so many roadblocks. I'm going to be really honest. I thought this would be like a Feb announcement, guys, but it's looking more like a, you know, middle of next year, but we'll get there. I think that's the name of the game sometimes, isn't it? It's not easy. It's like a house reno. Would you ever launch, like how would you feel, Jo, if you ever launched a product? I'd buy your skincare. I would never do a skincare brand. Really? Yeah, straight out. Never. Hot tip right here. Never. I would do a collaboration with an existing brand. Okay. If I felt there was something missing from their range.

34:36Like the TBH, Hannah English. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would do something like that. I will never have my own skincare range. Although Caroline Hirons did say that and she ended up launching Skin Rocks. So you never know. Could change my mind in 10 years. She's gone from never. That coin flipped pretty quick to, oh, well, you know. If L 'Oreal did come knocking and got a really bad check. Elf seemed to have a lot of money as well, so we'll see. Also, I actually did really like those slippers that the girls released, the room. They looked beautiful. Yeah, they're really cute. But anyway, we're going to talk about being a bad texter next, but that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

35:20our next headline is is being constantly contactable making us all bad texters I am seeing some faces that might indicate that maybe we identify there so there was a recent article in vogue that caught our attention last week and was firing off in our slack chat written by Nina Amiya Shida, the article explored whether the fatigue of being constantly contactable is what's making us all bad texters. So the conversation's been pretty big, both in the article, but on TikTok as well, with both perspectives, the timely texters and also the bad texters. Don't you love that we only fall into one bucket?

35:56They were all expressing their point of views. And it seems like a lot of us have been struggling to keep on top of texts. In the Vogue article, Nina lays out several different tactics she's tried to become a better texter, like leaving texts unread to remind herself to respond and setting one hour timers every time she gets a new message. It's a lot. I'd be living in a 24 hour cycle of one hour timers. Yeah, I know. Getting a lot of texts, are you? Popular. Are you? Do you know what? Unfortunately, a lot of my darling friends live overseas. So I wake up to the UK texts. And then some of my clients have been in the US and they love to WhatsApp.

36:35Lucy, our head of podcast, also loves to WhatsApp, which is a telltale sign you are from the UK because it seems to be a thing. Let's start. Are you good or bad texters? Zara? I am an, I'm a pretty good texter. Yeah. Ish. I think I'm getting worse. I actually did have a kind of sidebar conversation with Michelle about this on our shame more episodes which is like our subscription i'm shameless recently because i was having a bit of an existential crisis about what it said about me if i just became a bad texter if it was some sort of i don't know issue with my identity i don't know like is that is that bad texter hard to be friends with i was like really deeping it yeah i haven't listened to that episode but you better believe i'm going to after this i feel like that's a very interesting hot take joe Do you think you're a good texter?

37:22I think I am a good texter, but I'm not very good with other platforms. So my personal emails can sit there for three to four weeks and I won't get back to someone. And that's really bad. I often fall behind on things like my rates that I just leave unread. I still leave everything unread. So like I know that it's there, but I just don't have the capacity to address it. And I know that's going to require five minutes of my undivided time that I don't have at that particular point. Yeah. So then I go through like an hour where I'll just go through all of it. But I don't often do that with text just because I don't think there is a function to make them unread again once you've opened them.

37:57Yeah. Is there? I make all my messages unread if I haven't responded to it. Oh, I didn't know you could do that. Can you show me how to do that? Yeah. But I don't find it that helpful because then sometimes it gets lost in the river and I just lose the ones that are unread anyway. If there was a function on text and maybe every time I say this on any show, someone's like, there's absolutely a way to do that. There was a function where you could mark them unread and then the ones that are unread stay at the top of your inbox because that's what I do with emails. And I find it really hard to miss emails.

38:27Then I'd be good. So what do I press? So swipe to the side. There's a bin and there's a little. Oh, the other way. Oh, other way. So Lucy, am I swiping? Swipe to the left. To the left. Guys, you swipe to, no, you would swipe right. Swipe right. You swipe right and there's a little icon there. She hasn't been on a hinge for years, guys. I'm actually married. Zara. So, honestly, that should be your swap. That's a bonus swap. I didn't know that that was a thing because I've always swiped left. Always swiped right. No, left. Good, good. Oh, my God, guys, just chuck up the L's and let's be done. So, I mean, that's one self for you.

39:05Yes, I love that. Oh, okay, well, now I'm going to be a bad texter because now that I know I can do that, I don't have to address it at the time. Yeah. I just feel like for me there are so few places you can be invisible anymore. Yes. You can't even be invisible on your Sunday walk anymore because I keep bumping into you. I know. Mads, are you a good texter or a bad texter? This is going to sound so ruthless. I'm a really great texter if we're really close. Okay. And I'm not great if we're not. Yeah. Because I'm just prioritising those relationships. And to deepen it, I'm much with you. I feel like I'm not showing up as a great friend or I'm not being available to them and I always want my closest people to feel that but I'm busy and my phone is also my work phone so a lot of the time I'm like juggling between like a text from someone that I'm working with or texting like in the chat that's like regarding stylish or like what time we have to be there and then the next one I'm like how's your three-week newborn and can I have another photo and I'm like I'm tired and my brain's like I don't know which text we're sending anymore.

40:07I think a huge problem with this is the fact that we don't all have work phones. And I know that is like a huge privilege to say we all should have like two phones. And I've said this probably for like four months now. I was like, I'm going to get a work phone. I haven't done it. Where I would have all my work stuff, and I would put my social media apps on my work phone because I'd be like, that's work. Because I don't really use social media personally. And everything else that's just for fun is on the fun phone. I just still haven't done it. And every time I talk about this, I'm like, it's a really good idea.

40:33I should do this. I like that. Do you know what, though? I think I'm a great caller. You do love a phone call. And you love a voice note as well. And you don't love a voice note, Jo? No, I do. Yeah, I'm just often on the receiving end of Mads' voice notes and calls. So I know that she prefers that over texting. Sometimes with a voice note, though, like I also like a voice note if I'm in a rush, I quickly grab my phone. I'm worse at responding to voice notes. Same, because they disappear. Yeah. And I need to give it my undivided attention. I can't skim it. I need to lock in so I let it sit there longer than I want to.

41:05Do you not have the text version of your voice note? Because I find I'm often just texting reply to the voice note transcript. Yeah. Yes. But sometimes you read that transcript and you're like, I certainly need to listen to it. Yes, I don't understand. The robot has got this one wrong. What I find interesting is that we're like the last generation where we didn't grow up being that contactable. Like it got to, you know, a certain point where we had MSN and we had the home phone and we eventually got mobile phones, you know, in our mid-teens or late teens. if, you know, the people listening to this are also in their early 30s.

41:38But we're the last generation to have that. And so I don't know that our brains fully adapted to that. Like I think younger people now may have just an easier way of adopting that into their everyday and just like knowing that that's just part of life. Whereas we didn't have that growing up. So our brains, I don't know that they've caught up. Can I ask, do you feel offended if someone doesn't reply to you? Like regardless of your texting style, does someone's like immediacy? I would be lying if I said that maybe three or four years ago, I would get annoyed about it. I do not get annoyed about it now.

42:07If anything, if I'm totally honest, if someone doesn't respond to me, my preeminent feeling is relief. Not because I don't want to talk to them, but because thank God it wasn't me. Do you know what I mean? Like I feel relieved that we are all in the same boat here where we're all just like really fucking trying and struggling. I've got a shocking memory. So I've just, I'd forget they didn't reply. I'd come back to it three months later and be like, oh, they didn't reply to me. The only time I challenge this is if it's someone trying to organise a catch-up. Agree. And they're not replying immediately because I'm like, don't you come and sidebar me and my calendar and time.

42:38Sorry, I'm really on a tangent here. But don't sidebar me. Demand that I'm like in front of my computer, which is where I usually – I'm like such a boomer. You know when people like want to make a big purchase on their computer? I want to do my calendar on my computer. I love that. So I'm there and I'm like, yep, this date I'm available this date. And then you don't reply. I'm like, no, no, you just texted me one minute ago. Like this should be instant. We're playing tennis now. I agree. The minute you start organising it, it should be tennis, particularly for group things as well if you're in a group chat.

43:03If someone is going out on a limb to try and organise something, you reply as soon as you can. And also you can't leave that space open in your calendar for no reason. If they're not going to come back to you, something else is going to fill it. Or if you're in a five-person group chat. Mrs Popular too. I've got the busiest two women in Melbourne in this studio. You've got a five-person group chat and four have said yes to a date and the fifth comes in the next day. Oh, I can't do that one. Sorry, you're out. We've got a table of four. I'm like, no. No, we need to talk about that too. And there needs to be more people that say, hey, I can't come, but you will still go.

43:34Yeah. Always. I will always do that because I know that I am the pain in the ass. There are a lot of nights I can't do. There's late night UK calls that I have to do. There's this on a Monday night. I don't want to do anything on a Wednesday night because I record every second Wednesday. I know I'm the pain in the ass. I'm like, go forth and prosper, my friend. Yeah. But if I can, I will be there with cowbells on. I find the way that I'm responding to this idea of constantly being contactable and not feeling invisible in any part of my life, like, you know, you just have no escape from any communication, is on holidays, I'm really struggling to see people.

44:09Like, I really don't want to hang out with people because I find that is the one part of the year where you can almost, like, cocoon yourself. Like, I don't really respond to people. I don't post really on social media. And I just cocoon myself from everything to get my sanity back. Yeah. that's my only problem solving piece here yeah it is really funny because I would say I text my friends quite frequently and like maybe that has a lot to do as well with the fact I'm single so I like wake up no one's like how to sleep well like what are you doing today I'm like literally no one asked me that anyway and so I'm like yeah yeah I love that what PJs are you wearing I'm like texty texty how you know how's your week going what's your you know and I usually do that like as I'm waiting for my coffee it's like my little like let like my four favorite people know I'm thinking of them at that time.

44:52I love that. And then, you know, a little bit like you, sometimes the dread comes when I'm like in the middle of listening to a podcast or something and the AirPods are like, Rhiannon Joyce has to, and I'm like, you can get rid of that notification. Yeah, I can. I know. If I'm going to be Mrs. Apple over here, I tell you all. Take support. Look out. That desk is here. But my catalyst to this, much to your point on vacation, is I don't text anyone on vacation. I don't really want to know anything. And I'll let you know how the holiday was when I'm home. I agree. It's like you disappear. Yeah. That's how it should be.

45:20I actually do not think you should text friend on a holiday. I think you should let them disappear and hear about it when you get home. Yeah. But it is funny. I did that for one of my best friends. I'm not sure about that. Really? Yeah. I did it recently for a best friend and I think she got about four days in and said, why aren't you texting me? I was like, sorry, resume usual motion. If someone doesn't reply in my like friendship group chat in like half an hour, if there's a conversation going on and one person isn't replying, someone in the group will be like, where's Jess? Where's Yana? Like it's a stressful group chat.

45:52We all have everyone's location. Yeah. That's how like contactable we are. The fairies. It's where you watch your fairies. Oh yeah, my sims. Yeah. I don't like calling them my sims. They're my fairies. Fairies is a much better way and much nicer way of putting it. How interesting. I really think that's all I've got, I'm going to be honest. Yeah, yeah. I don't have anything else. I'm done here. I'm done. More lollies for you, Sarah. More lollies. Unless you've got kids. I just want a catalyst on that. If you've got kids, you get two to three business days from me. I agree with you. And also, who had the last red and blue lolly here?

46:25Wasn't me. It was definitely you. I'm sweating. I'm already sweating and now it's definitely me. And that is all for this week's episode at Stylish. Thank you very much for joining us today, Zara McDonald. Guys, thanks for having me. This has been really fun. Always a pleasure. I'm so sorry that I still had the last red and blue lolly. You know, it also may have been me. I may have just eaten them all. It's the one on the floor that's still smiling at us for me. Yeah, I know. There is still lollies on the floor. Thanks to you, Joanna Fleming, for just always being here. Such a delight. And you, Madison Sullivan Thorpe.

46:53Also, we haven't covered it, but we are so close on wedding countdown, so I'm fully going to do that next week. Are we allowed to say how many weeks? It's three weeks. Or two and a half. Yeah. I'm so excited for you, Jo. And next week, you guys are going to be really excited because Annika's going to be back. I know. I'm so excited to see her and her growing bump. I know. which is just so fashionable. Look, if you have anything you want to email us, please feel free to, anytime. Just don't text us by the sounds of things. Our email is style-ish at shamelessmedia.com.au or you can slide on into our DMs over at stylishpod.

47:28I promise we're much better replies there. We can't forget to thank the Shameless Media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emmerberg. We'll be back with Arnica next Wednesday. Woo! Bye!

47:46This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.