Sunscreen scandal: Unpacking the Ultra Violette saga

22:50Airyday, who are also known for their mineral formulas, have confirmed they do not use the same manufacturer. So their mineral mousse and pretty in zinc formulas are still available for sale. And I have recommended those sunscreens to clients in their consultations. I'm not here to defend ultraviolet, but I do want to say I'm really disappointed in the outcome of those test results. Obviously, that is not an ideal outcome. It's really disappointing that people have been potentially wearing a sunscreen that has not been protecting them to the level that they thought they were. As we referenced on the previous discussion, it's an expensive sunscreen.

23:24You know, you're not paying$10 for this. It's like 50-something bucks for a tube of sunscreen. So it is really disappointing. But I do feel the need to point out that this highlights a more systemic issue at play. It involves the manufacturers. It involves the testing facilities. And it very heavily falls on the TGA in this instance because there needs to be more auditing going on. There needs to be a thorough investigation that happens here. And maybe that results in changes to SPF testing, but also in-house SPF testing at the TGA to make sure that brands are not having to self-report what their SPF has come back as.

24:02They can self-report, but you need to be able to verify that before that product is available for sale. Yeah. You've hit the nail on the head, Jo. It's a lot to digest. What's interesting, looking at ultraviolet situation as well, is they have just recently expanded into the US market and whether or not this will have a negative impact on that expansion. So UV actually stocked in 592 Sephora stores. I believe they expanded into the US about six months ago. I feel it was a huge deal. I did a quick Google search and went through all the Google news outlets of who was covering the ultraviolet statement and the most recent statements from Choice and the TGA.

24:37Most of it is Australian-centric. There are only a trickle of international publications and more so international creators who are covering it. So I'd be curious to know if this is going to have anywhere near as much of an impact on the US market as what it does here. And Jo, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they also have different formula regulations? You literally read my mind. I was just about to say, Rhi, I should pull you up. There are different formulas in the US because some filters can't be used. But I believe that the Velvet Screen, I think it was called in the US, not Lean Screen.

25:08They had different names, but same formula. That has also been pulled. Oh, OK. So it has affected the US as well. Yes. Yeah, I believe so. But who knows if it will achieve the same kind of media coverage as it has here. It seems like a very local issue. I don't know if it'll get the same backlash overseas. But obviously that's a serious concern for the brand when they're trying to branch into other markets to have a scandal like this. But I do feel that it's going to impact a lot more brands than we're going to know about. Absolutely. And I think as well now, like I would love to know, with these third parties, like what is actually happening to them?

25:41Like will they be named and shamed? Will they be called out? Will they be blacklisted from actually being able to produce certain sunscreens? And like what actually happens to them? I would anticipate there's going to be a fining situation. It is known what this manufacturer is and there's some more details coming out about that. But for legal reasons, we won't kind of delve into that in this episode, especially because not all of the information is available to us at the moment. God, this is complex, isn't it? Yes, it's so murky. It's such a developing story. It's kind of annoying that we're doing this now because I'm like, I want all of the information.

26:13Yeah. I want to be able to form like, you know, a thought, but I can't. It's just kind of like rambling to give you as much information as possible. Because people are going to want transparency and they're going to continue to want answers. And it's like, how can you actually give them all the answers when it's just so layered and constantly evolving? We're definitely in the grey here. Yeah. And I think from Ultraviolet's perspective, based on how this has all unfolded and it really has fallen a lot on their brand. And they've now flagged that they feel quite confident in their other formulas.

26:40in their post that they did, they showed on a little graph where those SPF results came in. Yeah. I think they now need to be very transparent and post what those results are for every single other one of their formulas, because I think that's what customers want to see. I want to see it. Yeah. I want to see what all of those testing results came back as. And I think that will be the thing that reassures people. I think that was a really reasonable question that came up quite a lot in the comments that I saw as well on the post that it felt quite fair to me. I also felt that graph was really helpful as a visual explainer of how much these results varied and put that into context because sometimes when you see numbers side by side, I know that sounds silly, but it's hard to visualize what does that actually mean?

27:22I did find that graph quite helpful. Yeah, I love a visual diagram when numbers are involved. As we said, guys, this story is ever evolving. We are recording on a Monday and this episode's going live on Wednesday. So there is more to come and I'm sure we'll be picking this up again as it continues to evolve. Up next, we are going to be unpacking the year of influencer engagements and how they're monetizing their weddings. But first, let's hear from today's sponsor.

27:53All right, guys. So a recent article in The Cut written by Olivia Torber explored the rise of influencer engagements in the US and more broadly, how many American influencers are now monetising and mining their weddings for content? I know I came in hot at the top. With opinions on this, I really set myself up, but I just wanted to give a bit of context about what the cut feature actually said. So Olivia writes, this summer, it seemed every week brought yet another Influencers Fiance era announcement, complete with the pear-shaped ring, a reel filmed in a 90s camcorder, or at least filtered to look that way, and a giddy champagne-fueled caption.

28:29What really stands out is how these engagements are packed, shared, and monetized. In a digital economy where engagement posts can drive real income, the proposal isn't just a personal moment, it's a content opportunity. So Shameless actually touched on all this when covering influencer Jazz Smith's wedding back in May. And the Cut article points to Jazz's wedding, which was documented by her in minute detail online, as kicking off a wave of influencer proposals and highly documented weddings. Do you guys remember this? Yes. As the article explains, she posted over 20 TikToks on the day of the ceremony.

29:00I'm like, how? How? I have opinions. We're really leading into this quite strong. On the day of the ceremony, created a spreadsheet with 40 plus video ideas and had her assistant managing execution like a producer on set. And she didn't pretend any of it happened by accident. I had the wedding I had because this is my job, she explained. You guys helped pay for it. The article breaks down six high-profile recent influencer engagements by aesthetic, fiance identity, ring details, viewer experience, rollout structure, and what Olivia calls the bridal monetization level. I loved that way of packaging up that social post.

29:37It was a carousel post and then it was a rating out of five, I think. It was a scorecard. It was essentially a scorecard. So according to her, that's a score that sums up how much content they posted, how professionally it was produced, and whether they used the moment to promote brands or products. It all begs the question, have influencers gone too far when it comes to documenting and monetizing their wedding? Are they actually enjoying the day or thinking about how it's all going to be shared and packaged up and what sponsors they need to shout out? You know what? I actually respect that creator, Jazz, though, for being really transparent about why she was sharing the level of content that she was sharing.

30:13She was like, I feel really connected to my audience and I feel that they deserve to be part of the day. I respect that. Yeah. I could never, but that level of production I could not do on my wedding day, just purely out of stress. But I do feel like there are creators that just have zero boundaries in terms of what they share. They share their entire life, even really like tragic situations in their life. They're straight on and sharing it, which I can't personally relate to. But there are people that do it. And also, if that's what you want to do on your wedding day, I kind of don't give a shit if that's what you want to do.

30:46I know that you have a different opinion, but I kind of just don't care what they want to do. I want to be really clear about what I define as monetization. For me, as someone who just got married, I would say using a wedding as like a springboard or enhancing your online social presence through not just paid partnerships, but the choice to mind your life. And that's usually what I think about in the context of this article and the cut and how much they have mined their personal life. And Jo, you've touched on this as well in terms of sharing everything. feels like it's at that point where you might as well just invite the community to your wedding.

31:21Look, my only defence for Jasmine is she did actually do a giveaway on her TikTok where she gifted all of the money she made from the TikTok creative fund to two brides. Oh, did she? She did. That's so nice. I know, that was sweet. I didn't know that. I also thought that was very deliberate of the cut to leave that out because they went as far as to quote her in that same video where she actually dedicated her wedding to her community. in that same video, that's where she announced the giveaway. So I did think that was a little bit strategic by the heart and a little bit misleading. Didn't love that.

31:51In saying that, I do find it incredibly concerning how much people are willing to mine their lives and share so much and just forfeit any form of intimacy or privacy on one of the most special days of your life. And I'm not saying it's the most special day, but as someone who just got married, there is not a world where I could have done what these creators have done. Yeah. I literally could not imagine it. Like, first of all, where the hell do you have the time? Like, on our wedding day, maybe call me old-fashioned, but we were so present. It's also fucking overwhelming. And trying to take it all in and actually soak up the magic of your wedding day, let alone having cameras filming you or thinking about content and your spreadsheet, like, did I tick that box?

32:34I'm like, there was no way that was on my mind whatsoever. If anything, I didn't get enough photos. and I was like, oh shit, at the end of it. But I like, I have the memories. I have, I guess, what the day was about. And I feel like we're seeing this constant shift to weddings become PR moments. Like this is the most, one of the most intimate, most beautiful, loving, important days of your life. I can't imagine a world where James would be like, absolutely, hon, we'll get that sponsored just for your content. Like who cares about our special day? Like not happening. It's wild to me. I literally can't make sense of it.

33:05It's interesting. The US as well is just another beast. It is. You've got to remember as well, the TikTok creator economy is huge over there. Yeah. The reason why they're doing this is because they make money from the videos that they're posting once they hit a certain view. We don't have that in Australia. Yeah. We don't have that available to creators. And there are still creators out there who are absolutely going to town on the socials when it comes to their weddings. And I'm not going to sit here in my ivory tower and say, I didn't post about my wedding. I didn't talk about my wedding. I did.

33:34But I felt like. And we liked it. Yeah. And this is the thing, though. it's also really interesting the dynamic with social media because the algorithm rewards you for doing that the engagement that you get on wedding content I don't know if you've had this joe already being in the planning phase it is quite high if you're an influencer you're a creator and your entire career is built on engagement of course you're going to look at this and see it as an opportunity to monetize and make more money but also transition into a different phase of influencer yeah and I feel like that's what we're seeing a lot of as well play out in the US specifically.

34:06Again, I'm not sitting here in my ivory tower saying I didn't post. I shared a lot of moments from my wedding and throughout that process, but I had very clear boundaries around what I would share and what I wouldn't. There was also a really clear boundary for us. We would not work with any brand in a paid partnership capacity on our wedding day or in the lead up to our wedding because we really wanted to protect and preserve what our wedding stood for. And at the And the day it stood for the love that we share between Louis and I, my husband, but also the people that were in the room. In my opinion, I felt if I brought brands into that process, it would be taking away from that love in the room and distracting me from what was most important.

34:44Absolutely. Yeah, that's been a really strict boundary for me as well because brands have known obviously my wedding is coming up and I have been approached by brands to do stuff on the wedding day. no way would I take on a piece of sponsored content for my wedding day, even if it was something I was going to be doing anyway. Even if it was like the exact skincare brand that I was using, I don't want to have to be thinking about that because I work as a content creator. So that's, if I was in any other job, I'm not going to be working on my fucking wedding day, am I? I want to be focused. Like I already know I'm going to be really anxious and really overstimulated.

35:15The last thing I want to think about is trying to fit a brief for a brand. I'm quite a private person as much as I do this podcast and I create content. I actually am quite inherently private, so much so that I wanted to have a private ceremony that didn't quite go down with Adrian, so I had to compromise. But yeah, I was really strict about that. I do want to be transparent that I've received some discounts or industry discounts from my vendors that I was going to choose anyway, because I'll be sharing content from my wedding, obviously organically. And I do want to acknowledge the privilege that comes with that.

35:47Obviously, not everyone can get discounts on things they're paying for for their weddings, and it's fucking expensive. I think that's a really good point to make, Jo, because when you're talking about in the context of when you were a creator, even if you're someone like me who's in the industry and has connections with different suppliers and different brands, I'm talking about people who are doing deliverables on their wedding day in a paid capacity. I'm not referring to like gifting or discounting because even myself, you know, I worked with a few brands leading up to it who I had been a paying customer for a while.

36:14Absolutely a privilege to be in a position where you can do that. But I also think there is a line in the sand around what those boundaries are of how much you're willing to bring, you know, and deliver on behalf of brands. Yes, for sure. One of the biggest things is for me as well. I just couldn't imagine giving up that much creative control to an external party on like my day. Like I had such a vision. and like anyone tried to even James tried to impact that picture I was like I'm not coming down the aisle kidding but like it's just imagine giving away like all of these intimate moments these touch points everything about your day and doing it to fill a brief I feel like for me that's where I'm like yeah it doesn't resonate because if it's a paid post they have some creative control over that like there's a brief that goes with that and you may not get to control exactly what that looks like no but when you're creating the content yourself and it's natural content from the day that you're choosing to share, you then get to choose the bits that you share.

37:09Like even when I posted about our engagement, I posted the video of Adrian proposing because he filmed it. But I didn't post the audio of that. That's only something that me and my family and my friends have seen is what he said to me because that's very personal and I didn't want everyone seeing that. I don't think I'll probably post like our vows because that's also very personal and I didn't want to do that in front of the people who are going to be there anyway. with everyone. Weirdings are a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. I do want to say again, I'm not judging anyone if that is their choice. That's very much their main income.

37:44It's just not something that I feel I could have done on my day. Totally. Yes. And I think it's important to mention that. You and I are quite similar in that way. I think there are people though that are like, this is my life and the reason that I'm able to have this life, like Jazz said, is because of my audience. These people that follow me and support me and, you know, want to comment on my stuff and engage with my stuff and I feel I owe it to them. And that might be the case for some other creators. I don't see it happen a lot in Australia, if I'm being honest. Yeah. And coming back to the article itself and even the creators that were featured in that article, I think there are a couple of obvious things to me.

38:18First and foremost, all of them are really similar in terms of, I would say, their wealth status, but also predominantly white creators as well. Very similar aesthetic, very similar audience and demographic in that New York influencer landscape. I thought that was a really interesting observation. It's interesting that they're saying they're coming from a place of no judgment because I found the whole article incredibly judgmental. I mean, they did a number scale. We scored them. So, yeah. That's literally what judges do. So, sure, you can set your intentions, but in terms of what my interpretation was, very judgmental.

38:57is it also setting up I guess brides to be for like false realities and like thinking that this is what weddings look like I appreciate the transparency over what's sponsored and what has been gifted to you or whatever but these are also getting so elaborate like Jazz's wedding was beautiful it looked like so much fun great time so elaborate like this isn't sometimes real life and what your average bride can afford I don't know there's all this messaging around it that it's just yeah a lot more to unpack in our wedding series yeah we need to do another one We did talk about this a bit in the previous wedding series that we did, but I honestly think there is so much more space for us to go deeper on how much wedding culture has exploded on social media.

39:36We only scratched the surface in the initial series. It's a trillion-dollar industry. Yes. It contributes to so many jobs. It creates so much positivity, but at the same time, the swarm of wedding culture on social media that I'm exposed to, even post-wedding, I am seriously overwhelmed, and I do think it is breeding this really toxic relationship of comparison as well. Yes. I'm three months out and I'm really starting to feel the pressure because I haven't organized a second dress either. And I'm like, do I have to have a second dress? No. Is that going to be enough? Am I going to regret not doing a second dress?

40:08What am I going to wear to my hands? I can say one thing in full confidence to you. I don't have a single regret for my wedding. Even the things that I thought I was like second guessing, umming and ahhing, at the end of the day, the experience you walk away from is so beautiful and is so loving. All that other shit doesn't matter. Okay, that's good to know. All right. And you'll feel good after. Okay. I'm going to double down on that. Fuck the second dress then. Yeah, you do not need it. Again, it's just like it's a nice to have, not a necessity. Yeah, okay.

40:44All right, moving on to our final headline. Alex Perry speaks out against the Australian fashion industry. So a bit of background on this story. In a recent interview with Three Food Memories, Australian fashion designer Alex Perry shared his gripes with the Australian fashion industry and the lack of support they've received from it throughout his career. I've got to say up top, I did love the candidness of this interview. And I love when someone just rejects all media training whatsoever. I'm like, tell me how you really feel. Seriously, there's a breath of fresh air from Alex. So thank you for that.

41:12So speaking in front of a live audience, Alex said, I'm one of the only ones that are left. all the cool people are gone and I'm hanging up in Bergdorf Goodman and in Harrods and it's like suck that you know what I mean and still to this day I don't have a business in Australia I don't stock in one store but I stock in 250 around the world and I'm shot by magazines all over the world but not by an Australian one this is my home so I say that it doesn't bother me but it really pisses me off very candid yes Alex is far from the only successful Australian fashion designer to find more success and support in an overseas market.

41:47Think of labels like Zimmerman, who have found staggering success thanks to their overseas expansions, with the US now being their largest market. Of course, part of the reason for Australian labels finding greater recognition and success overseas is that the market sizes are much bigger and there's more infrastructure to support their growth and development. Some things we do really lack in the Australian market, and I feel like, Anika, you're going to have a lot to add to this. I've got things to say. It's your time to shine. An Australian financial review feature written by Lauren Sams explores this phenomenon of local labels being better known overseas than in Australia, writing that succeeding in the local fashion industry is not always easy.

42:21As Realization Park co-founder Till Talbot says, California has a bigger population than Australia. And so it stands to reason that there are homegrown fashion brands with sizable global followings that Australians themselves are missing out on. There's also the impact of tall poppy syndrome. This is something we've discussed on the show before. At length. And we're about to do more of it. Australians often feel a need to cut down people who put themselves out there and back themselves, something Alex alludes to in this interview. What did you guys think about what Alex said? I thought it was quite interesting because I've only recently seen Alex Perry doing a lot of advertising for their new ready-to-wear bridal collection because I've been looking for a second dress, as I just mentioned, and I'm like, I haven't seen them around for a long time.

43:02It just dawned on me. Yeah, it just dawned on me because I do remember a time when they were quite big in Australia. Yeah. He is so iconic. Like Alex Perry has been around since the 90s. And if we go like right back to when Australian Fashion Week started, he was one of the first inaugural designers to actually showcase his collections and consistently show. And I do think it is just such a shame to see that he doesn't have representation in his home country. But this isn't isolated. It happens so often in our industry. And I think for me, what it actually really does illustrate is just how competitive and cutthroat the Australian fashion industry is.

43:38We see it firsthand at Sage, like our biggest market by miles is the US. Like that is where majority of our revenue comes in. The Australian market is still really important, but the opportunities are actually endless overseas. And it's actually really interesting because I think since pre-COVID even, we started to notice a real shift in the sweet spot of your RRP. So you used to be able to sell a dress for$500 and consumers would not blink an eye. Like that would be easy. In today's day and age, with the cost of living crisis, it's like$250 to$350. And consumers still want to know what is the composition of that piece.

44:14You know, are there any sustainability elements or anything that can be called out in stores to really help sell that product to customers? And we didn't have as much fast fashion back in the day. And it's like, who's wearing it? They want to know what notable names. There are so many things now that go into sales and I guess wholesale in general as well. And I would actually kind of consider Alex Perry more of a luxury brand. I agree. His price points are high, so I don't think that that can't be acknowledged in this as well, because it is so hard to place and position RRPs that high, especially when designs are more intricate.

44:45His pieces are really sculptural. They're really beautiful and intricate in design. So I do think as well to sell those pieces on an ongoing basis, it is a little bit tricky. So I'm not surprised with his placement being at more profile, high-end stores. But what it did kind of really point out to me as well is this is just happening a lot more in this luxury space. Like we are saying we had Harold's here and it closed. We've seen really beautiful stores try to open in our market and they unfortunately haven't succeeded. And again, I think we are open to so much choice. Online shopping also means it's so accessible for consumers to buy pieces overseas.

45:21And we also shop around like we are such savvy shoppers now, myself included. But it honestly has happened with other luxury brands like Tony Medechevsky. He used to be such a big Noah name here. And I think he still is. He's still represented in David Jones, which is great. But those intricate details, all of those beautiful pieces are more readily available overseas than they are here. The other point I want to make to that is we don't have a lot of red carpet moments or event moment opportunities. Other than going to a black tie wedding or a ball, when are you going to be able to wear a gown?

45:54and Alex Perry's gowns retail for, I think most of them retail for$2 ,000 Australian plus. Very expensive. They are readily available on a lot of international retailers, Net-a-Porter, Motor Operandi. These are really popular online retailers all catering to an international market. Locally, I can honestly think of three times I would need a gown and it would be attending a red carpet event, which isn't really happening. I'm going to a black tie wedding or a ball. Those are the three reasons why I'd need a gown. So I also think the demand for this type of fashion is not as strong in the Australian market as what it would be internationally.

46:32And do you know what's so hard as well? I think the rise of rental platforms. Like there are so many dominating our wholesale landscape. Like I'm not even kidding. When we've got buyers coming into the showroom, they will always ask us if I'm going to invest in this brand or this garment, can you guarantee to me it's not going to be available on rental platforms? How can you guarantee that? And we can't. Because at the end of the day, we can intentionally not sell to rental stores within Australia. But at the same time, there's nothing to stop a consumer going and buying a size run of that dress from a rental store.

47:02It's so competitive now. It's so hard to manage. And there actually are no legalities around it as well. So there's no protection for brands unless they see an order pop up and they choose not to ship it. Yeah. But it's really hard. Like, we also actually saw something similar happen. Do you guys remember Nicholas the Label? Yes. That was from Green with MV. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are huge in the US and no presents here. Like it doesn't just happen as well in luxury. It happens in contemporary. So many brands have such a stronger presence overseas and are backed overseas. Yeah. And they don't actually have a present in their home region.

47:35That's really interesting. Well, you mentioned Zimmerman before. And when I was thinking more about that as you guys were talking, I was like, well, Zimmerman kind of had its run here. You know, it was really popular, probably like 2010 to 2014, maybe. Like, is it just that we got sick of it? And then they were like, OK, well, we've got to continue expanding the brand. So we're going to go to the US. And now it's continued to be popular over there. I have some insider scoop on that. OK. Oh, do you? But they intentionally chose to pull out of wholesale from the Australian market with a focus on their just bricks and mortar placements.

48:05OK. And obviously you make more margin as well when you do have a retail presence rather than having to sell at wholesale. So that was an intentional choice. But the international space is what their focus is. Yeah. Yeah. Again, coming back to the price point conversation, I do remember distinctively a time when Zimmerman priced out the Australian market as well. Unless you were someone who obviously had a high disposable income or could afford their gowns. Similar to your point, Annika, around, you know, you used to be able to sell a dress for$500 and now everyone expecting it$250. I honestly think Zimmerman went the opposite.

48:35You used to be able to buy a Zimmerman dress for$500. Now you can't buy one for less than$1 ,500 Australian dollars. I don't want to say intentionally. I would assume that they've deliberately gone down that path to appeal to a certain clientele also internationally. They seem to be doing very well. They have a lot of bricks and mortars in Europe and the US. When I was in Capri, they had a beautiful boutique in the thick of the town. Yeah. You know, right in between all of the designer household names. So, yeah, they're definitely going after a certain clientele. So that's an interesting observation.

49:06It's actually like, honestly, we talk about this all the time in wholesale. What it really points out is how you do need to diversify your partnerships, your retail strategies. And like even with the US now and the tariffs that have come into place, we are constantly looking for new markets to sell into. The Middle East, Europe, Asia have become so imperative for our business. And not all brands have robust strategies in place to tackle all these challenges that pop up. So it's just identifying for us how important it is to constantly diversify and just reassess all of your partnerships and strategies.

49:35I want to come back to the tall poppy syndrome comment. do you think there is an element of tall poppy syndrome playing into this conversation like Alex led to? I think so. Yeah. I just think that's Australian culture. It doesn't matter what you do, what industry you're in. If you're successful, people aren't going to want to see it. Yeah. I double down on that as well. I feel like at the end of the day, like sometimes there's this also awful mentality about brands having their moment and having their day. There's always newness. There's always new people coming along, undercutting. We talk about juke culture.

50:04There's so much going on. And I just feel like tall poppy syndrome is so real and relevant in this conversation. In the YouTube clip that I watched as well, Alex also mentioned that he wasn't featuring a lot in Australian publications and he didn't get a lot of support from Australian publications. My take on that would be that across the board in media, a lot of media publications are having to really rely on advertising dollars to be able to operate. And a lot of the time, a lot of these traditional media publications are leaning on the advertisers for revenue to be able to keep these magazines and, you know, their digital presence afloat, keep people in their jobs, which generally does equate to editorial influence.

50:46It also equates to guaranteed features in magazines. So if you're not willing to spend money and pay up from an advertiser point of view in a lot of these publications, they're not willing to give you the space. And because the Australian market is so small. My assumption would be that there is a lot more pressure on these magazines and these news publication outlets to feature brands who are spending money in advertising. Yeah. Which is maybe making it a bit hard for him to get that space. Yeah. Also, wasn't he on Australian Next Top Model? He was. Yeah. Flashback. Oh my gosh, yes. Maybe slightly like delayed cancel culture.

51:21True. I feel like a lot of those videos had a resurgence on TikTok as well. The Australian Next Top Model and America's Next Top Model franchise is just mind-blowing and, like, very fascinating. Yeah. It scares me. It's frightful. Okay. Well, that is a very long episode for you. Hopefully everyone enjoyed that. Sorry we couldn't stop yapping, but there was a lot to discuss. So that is all for this week's episode of Stylish. Thank you so much for joining us. And, of course, thank you very much to you, Annika Joshi-Smith, and you, Rhiannon Joyce. Thank you for having me. It was a very meaty one, but I really enjoyed being involved in that conversation.

51:58Oh, we love having you here. Thanks. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ish at shamelessmedia.com.au or you can slide into our DMs over at stylishpod. And we can't forget to thank our audio engineer, Mike Liberale, and the Shameless Media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt, and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. We'll be right back with you next Wednesday. See you then. Bye. See you guys. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.