The evolution of Alex Cooper's Unwell network

0:04Shameless Media.

0:13Hello and welcome to our fortnightly episode of Stylish. My name is Madison Sullivan-Thaw. My co-host is Rhiannon Joyce. It always feels so weird saying our full names. This is our fortnightly episode where we analyze all things brand, beauty, business, you name it, career stories, marketing campaigns. We are divulging all of it. Riri, happy Friday. How's your week been? Honestly, a bit of a whirlwind. I took Tuesday morning off a few hours, just time and loo to record and I, what are you doing that for? I was also a bit tired because I, what did we do on the weekend. I ran the marathon on the weekend.

0:52Oh my God. No, I feel like everyone knows because I keep bringing it up in every episode. But I did run the marathon on the weekend. So I was a little tired this week and also had a bit of, you know, brain fog. So I took a bit of time off on Tuesday morning and it was so nice. Went and got a facial at Rationale, went shopping down High Street, just did all the girly Melbourne things. Did you buy anything? I did. What did you buy? I bought an outfit. We have our shameless media upfronts today. When this episode is dropping, I will be presenting, but it's kind of a big deal for me. It's honestly the biggest media event that we host in the year.

1:26And I always like to buy an outfit for it. So I feel extra special. I'm big on the mindset of like, look good, feel good, you know, do a good job. So I bought a really cute outfit. Crazy for me. I'm wearing a pink skirt. Whoa. I know. Excuse me? Yeah. It's really, really cute though and I'll put a photo up on my Instagram so go look at it. It's from Grace in Melbourne which is like a really beautiful boutique on High Street. Adore Grace. Yes it's Tibby the American brand. Oh yeah beautiful. Stunning. It was also the last one left. I didn't think it would fit and it did so it was all meant to be.

1:58So yes I'm very excited about that. I'm excited to wear it. We're obviously recording on a Wednesday so I am kind of talking in two different what do you call it? Time zones? Time zones sort of. How was your week? My week's been really good. I feel like I've been – last week I had a foul week. Like I feel like I get on these podcasts a lot and I always get messages of people like, oh, I love how like bubbly and like happy you always are. And I'm like last week I had a really shit week. I was really overwhelmed, just really had to like recalibrate and have a little bit of like quiet time in TLC.

2:29I – you always say this to me, but a little bit more protecting my peace. I'm doing – I've done more of that this week and I felt like I was just coming down with something. So I think just like saying no to things is something I'm not great at, but I am trying. I know. I feel like a broken record with you sometimes, not in like a I'm your mother way, but more so because I also had to learn how to protect my peace and say no. And I feel over the last 12 months, I've gotten really good at it and also really distinguishing what is adding value. Time is the most important currency you have and taking time for yourself to protect your piece will just make all the difference in every other aspect of your life and how you show up like that energy that you're preserving you'll then put into yourself and put into other things that really matter and really fulfill you so I'm really coming down on that I know and she needs to and I'm feeling like such a weird because I always get so many people ask for coffee and do those things and now I'm really challenging myself to be like can I actually add value to you and what you're after as well and we're gonna do a whole episode on this because Ray and I were deepening this on a conversation.

3:34But even people asking for coffees, shoot your shot. I love that. I'll never knock that down. But one like tidbit of advice I'd give at the moment is to think about can that person actually give you tangible advice for where you're at right now? So it's like, you know, if you're really like, if you're just starting out, go for someone who's like a couple of years in. Don't go for someone who's been doing it for 10 years because they've got no idea what it's like to be in that sphere right now. I do really want to do a similar style episode to our first episode. I know we spoke a lot about our careers, but I also think there's something in our listeners sharing with us advice they need or guidance so that we can then maybe do a whole episode on tips, tricks, advice, and really consolidate that and centralize it in one place.

4:17That might be a better use of your time and you feel like you can get to these people who you feel like you can't have the coffee with the 30 minutes out of every day because that's a lot when you have so many people, which you do, asking you for 30 minutes of your time, maybe you can address a lot of the themes that they're coming to you in this episode. 1000%. Okay, we're going to do this. Yeah, I'll talk to the producers. We'll make this happen. All right. You'll talk to your people. Behind the scenes. Mads, word of the week. Word of the week. I'm going to keep it super simple. I know I hop on about it a lot, but fragrance is constantly in my algorithm.

4:49It's probably because I love fragrance. But I was on a call last night with Jamie Lupton, who owns Monday Day's Laura Proko. I mean, that like rap sheet of brands is endless. And Jamie was like, oh my God, have you seen Law yet? Now, for those who haven't seen Law, Law is a really fucking cool new fragrance brand. Side note, great fucking name. Great name. It's very Luayve-esque, their branding. But I saw this brand and I saw who started this brand and I was very impressed. So it's kind of got the dream team of beauty, I would say. So one of the co-founders is Melanie Bender, who was in the executive team at Rode.

5:27Sam Sontag, who designed the Rode phone case, has designed their bottle. One of the other co-founders, co-founded Youth to the People. Like we are talking serious rap sheet. I love the way that they've presented this brand. It's really niche at the moment. They've only got 12.9 thousand followers on Instagram. They're on Sephora US. I would not be at all surprised if they've got their sights set on Australia. I would love them to have their sights set on Australia. Call me. But they're charging $88 USD a bottle. Like it looks super luxe and it's floating in that really nice price point of like where who is Elijah is.

6:03So I'm going to call it, this is going to be like our next favorite fragrance brand. And while I don't gatekeep, I do hate sharing my fragrance brands because I'm like, I like wearing something. Fragrance is different. It's very personal. Yeah. Well, now here we are. I know there's a lot of Maison Crivelli girls now because I've shared saffron secret and I've also shared Oud Maracuja with half the shameless office as well actually. Yeah we all smell wonderful. But I think I'm going to try and get a couple of friends who are in New York to well actually I've just clocked this at the same time that I've got a friend going over to run the New York marathon I'm 100 % going to ask him to bring me home a couple of bottles of this.

6:42Me too. Yeah yeah yeah we'll Get a couple. We might do the Discovery Sets. I think that would be great. People need to stop sleeping on the Discovery Set. It is so good. I believe you recommended the La Labo full fragrance. Yes. The Discovery Set's also really good. The Discovery Set's are great. They've actually just dropped at Mecca. That's my hot tip. There's also a really cute one from Comme de Garçon that's in store at the moment as well. And if you are sleeping on Comme de Garçon fragrances, wake up. I agree. So underrated. So that was my, I guess it's my brand of the week. Brand of the week.

7:11Not my word of the week. Yeah, true. But, you know, the word of the week is what we make it. All right, let's get into the air. Last week, it was massive news. I think our text chat was kind of blowing up, Ray, but it was announced that Alex Cooper, popular host of the podcast Call Her Daddy, launched Unwell Creative Agency, a new division of her media company. If you haven't heard of Call Her Daddy, it's a very popular podcast that Forbes reported to have had 13.5 million monthly listeners, which, you know, safe to say. No small feat. Like one of the biggest podcasts in the world. You would be pressed to find someone who doesn't know who Alice Cooper is in our generation.

7:50My parents wouldn't know who she is. Great. My mum would have no idea. No clue. But would my girlfriends in group chat? Oh, hell yeah. So if you haven't heard of Call Her Daddy, it is a very, very popular podcast that Forbes reported to have had more than 13.5 million monthly listeners. Good North Star for us to be aiming towards. I strive for that success. So off the back of the success of Call Her Daddy, Alex Cooper then expanded into a fully fledged podcast network. Alex Cooper took inspiration from her proven formula and launched the podcast careers of two massive internet sensations and I would say the most well known to come out of the Unwell Network, Alex Earle and Madeline Argy.

8:29So Alex Earle's podcast was hot mess and Madeline Argy's is called Pretty Lonesome. Now we will come back to the breakdown in Alex Earle and Alex Cooper's relationship. This story will touch on Alex Cooper, but also Alex Earle at points. And I think it's just easier if we refer to them saying their full names. It would have helped if one of them just had a longer name that we could reference or at the very least a nickname, but we are where we are. So as we mentioned, this media agency has just been announced. The Wall Street Journal reported that the agency will be backed by a multi-year creative and media assignment with Google to create ads on social media and produce Google activations at live events.

9:12The deal is part of a wider partnership between Google and the Unwell Group, which will see the media company, I guess, promote its own use of Pixel and Android devices, which obviously are, I would say, paddling in the shallow end versus Apple out in the deep. Oh, yeah. This announcement is really the reason why we wanted to have this conversation and really deep dive the Unwell Network. As you said up top, Mads, you and I were going back and forth in Slack in our group chat being like, okay, there are so many expansions of brand Unwell. And this is really the reason why we wanted to have this conversation and deep dive brand Unwell.

9:47We're going to dive into our thoughts on this announcement, but that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

9:55rey so this announcement goes live we we've spoken a lot about alex cooper what are your initial thoughts really really liked it very impressed i need to say up top i'm a long-standing fan of alex cooper yeah i was an og listener of call her daddy i have followed her career journey quite closely i've listened to a lot of content that she's put out there not only on her own channels, but also on other podcasts that she's been a guest on. I really like the direction she's going in because it feels really aligned with Alice Cooper's passion points. So when she went on Diary of a CEO, which I think was one of her most prolific interviews that she's done and was the most transparent and honest around not only the stuff that happened and breakdown between her ex-co-host on Call Her Daddy Sophia, but also around how she shows up as a businesswoman.

10:44and this is why I love Stephen Bartlett as an interviewer because he really gets interesting insight from his guests and really takes the conversation to a place that as a listener, you're like, oh my God, this is exactly what I wanted and what I've been missing. In that interview, she spoke a lot about how she is a creator at heart and being a producer and a director is basically in her blood. So her dad was actually a TV producer and she spoke a lot in the early days around how she was influenced by his experiences and going on set and seeing the production side of things. She also went on to study film and has been, you know, video production has been a huge part of her life.

11:19So I really liked this because I think this is coming back to that passion point for her. And she's genuinely doing something that she loves and she's doing it for brands that are seriously, seriously impressive. To land a multi-year, multi-million dollar deal with Google, I'm like, go off queen. Yeah. What did you think? Truthfully, I was a little bit confused by it. Okay. Because Alex Cooper's name has been out and about for, I would say, a sustained period now. For me, I feel like I'm seeing unwell this, unwell that, unwell, unwell. I'm like, it feels a little bit like octopus tentacles. I don't really know what unwell is anymore.

12:00It's like, it's production, it's talent, it's podcasts, it's events, it's content, It's a media agency. It's a production agency. I'm like, whoa, I'm confused who you are and what you're trying to achieve now. And I definitely respect her. And I can't get that across enough. This is not to neg Alex Cooper. Much like you, I'm a fan. I think she is a very, very talented businesswoman. And I think she's unseriously serious. And you know how much I love those people. but I think for me there tends to be a pattern of Alex's I don't want to call it quick burn but I'm leaning there of we get this like ignition of loaded loud announcements and then I don't see the sustain of what she's doing.

12:49It feels like a flash in the pan. Yes. So for me I was like Google is incredible as a brand partner it adds a layer of legitimacy if they can pull this off fantastic but for me looking at Alex in singular fashion across the Unwell group, Unwell brand, if we want to call it that, is where is Alex's focus right now? Because I feel confused about where it is. And that's really fair. And also one of the main reasons why we wanted to have this conversation today, because as it stands, brand Unwell, the umbrella, there are four different arms. So you've rattled these off, but I'm going to actually give you the breakdown of the four different arms that make up brand Unwell.

13:28The Unwell Network, which is a creator and podcast network, and that includes some expanded talent with some notable names leaving, coming and going, Alexell being the most prolific. Unwell Hydration, which is an electrolyte drink brand. Unwell Productions, a TV production company. And now, as we've just discussed, Unwell Creative Agency and Ad Agency. So I totally hear you. And I do think this is going to be a constant, I guess challenge we'll come back to as this episode progresses is how did these individual arms of unwell all thrive? There are a lot of them. And to your point, I want to ask the question, is this a matter of, and I use this phrase a lot, the jack of all trades, the master of none, where potentially when you spread yourself too thin, you're not actually giving each of these arms the nurture and the love and the space to really grow and to reach their full potential.

14:21Yeah, and a lot of successful people that I've met, namely brand founders, the most solid piece of advice that they say is the hardest part is not saying yes to things. It's saying no and knowing when the right opportunity can come up at the wrong time and knowing when to say no is often harder than saying yes to things. It's going, it could be right, but it's not for right now. Agreed. And I do question whether Alex goes, oh, opportunity seems too good. I have to seize the moment. And maybe that is a symptom of zeitgeist and the pace of social and, you know, being of the moment now doesn't mean you will be of the moment in six months, six years.

15:05So, you know, maybe it's coming from that place. But it's an interesting one. And I agree. It's feeling jack of all trades. It feels reminiscent of the social climate, how quickly trends are moving right now. So perhaps she's also trying to marry up with that because she does talk a lot about, particularly in a lot of the trade press when she announced the creative agency is about tapping into Gen Z and the zeitgeist. So perhaps it's also moving at the speed of light because that's how socially our platforms are moving and the trends that we're seeing on them. Totally. It's a symptom of the climate that we're in.

15:36I do really want to start with the creative agency because it's the most recent edition. Mads, why do you think this works? I think it works because it adds a legitimacy layer to her. Being able to pick up and prop up talent is one thing when she already has the platform, but to be able to prove that she can create cultural moments through ads and through content, I think adds that true layer of legitimacy. So for me, asides from the Unwell Production Network, which is producing and creating podcasts, I think this is the most legitimate move that she can make. I mean, also, we're talking about a partnership with Google, so it doesn't get more legit than that.

16:16I would say Google, Apple, Microsoft, probably your three biggest that she could have partnered with. Huge budgets as well. Huge budgets. And then I also think the agency creates a stepping stone for what I think she's trying to achieve. We've seen it a little bit with the Cannes Film Festival, her documentary that she's created. But I also think it feels like she's gunning to be creating these cultural moments. And I know we've spoken about this, but we are so convinced she wants to create Super Bowl ads. Yeah, I had this in my predictions down the bottom. So I'm jumping ahead a little bit here.

16:50I had this in my predictions at the bottom of the episode, but I'm just going to bring it up here now because you've made a really valid point. And as you said, we're both very much aligned on this. I don't think Alex Cooper is driven by personal accolades. I think she's driven by industry accolades and she cares a lot about legitimacy in the industry and her presence at Cannes, her desire to be a producer and a director is for her to achieve these accolades in the industry. I wouldn't be surprised if down the track, she does create a Super Bowl ad for Google in this five-year plan. That is a really long time.

17:24Google also have an always-on strategy when it comes to marketing and they really ramp it up around the Super Bowl and it would be so stupid for them to miss that opportunity. I also watched the ad that they launched their partnership with, which was promoting T-Mobile. And Alex has already attracted some very notable talent. The look, the feel, it feels like content, not an ad. And I can just see them doing something spectacular for the Super Bowl. Also, I don't know if this is maybe a bit petty for me to say, or a bit gossipy, but also the Super Bowl is in the space where Alex Earl plays. Her current boyfriend is an NFL player.

18:00She probably had, I mean, when we discussed the Super Bowl in the Is Sexy Back episode, Alex Earl had three or four ads running adjacent to the Super Bowl. So they weren't an actual Super Bowl ad, it just ran alongside. I feel like she's playing in that space. It would be a notable, notable move. Yeah. And I think you're a bang on. I think she really wants to prove herself outside of being a personality or front facing talent. And she wants to be taken really seriously in boardrooms. I don't think that's to say she might not end up putting herself in a Super Bowl ad. She's been in every app. She definitely cares about having a public profile 100%, but I do feel her end goal is always to be seen as the industry leader and someone who is a serious force to be reckoned with.

18:45In the wise words of Rhiannon Joyce, what would we say? Two things can be true. Okay, so when we talk challenges, what do you see as the challenges of her having this agency within the Unwell group? The first thing that came to mind for me, and maybe this is my advertising brain and working in partnerships, category exclusivity. So this five-year deal with Google has locked her in. And what's great about that is when you have a long-term partner, what that gives you is financial security. So you know that this revenue is guaranteed. In saying that, the Google partnership makes up four to five different categories.

19:17It's cross-category, which means you're never going to see Alex Cooper holding an iPhone again. So we've got phone - Unless she does a Britney and she's walking around with a Coca-Cola while she's got a Pepsi partnership. Guys, that is advertising susu. There's nothing worse. The most expensive Coca-Cola anyone has ever drank was that one by Britney Spears. Oh my God. That is honestly an advertiser and marketer's worst nightmare when they're advocating and promoting a specific product and then they get papped or seen holding their direct competitor who probably has more market share. In this instance, Apple, I believe, do in our market.

19:53I'm not sure about North America, but yeah, don't be surprised if you never see her with an Apple iPhone again. But also we're not even just talking about phones. We're talking software. We're talking AI. We're talking, you know, Google hit so many different categories. She's really limiting the brands that she can work with. And I would argue that she would probably make more money if she cut that up and broke it down to each category. In saying that, what it would compromise is the authenticity of the partnership, The integration and the way that they're able to show how Google enhances Alex Cooper's life, but also her business and using, you know, all of the editing tools, the capabilities that Google can offer in her workplace, I think adds a lot of value.

20:34So I think it's a challenge, but I also think it can be positioned to a consumer as a positive and make it feel more authentic. 1000%. Do you think the challenge though is obviously as businesses get bigger, their appetite for risk becomes a lot smaller. Absolutely. Red tape, red tape. And as much as Google likes to say they're a cool brand, there are still board members and there are still shareholders that they have to appease. There may be an issue where there could be some conflicting values or some conflicting goals and that could actually inhibit the content. Yeah. And if we take Alex Cooper as just an example, let's take Call Her Daddy.

21:09She had Kamala Harris on the podcast, take your personal view of politics out of it. The reality is that the US election was always going to come down to the wire. She made a play there that she was willing for 50 % of her audience to potentially feel isolated by listening to that interview. Now, you take that view for Google. Google will not take that pun that she did. Now, this is not subjective opinion. This is entirely objective opinion. Google, I don't believe, would be willing to take that kind of risk because Google can't afford to isolate a portion, a large portion of consumers, listeners, engagers, whatever you want to call them, because, you know, they're a large company.

21:54They're a big tech company. And as I said, up top, they have to appease shareholders. They have a stock market that they have to look at every day and that has a direct impact on it. So those type of blue chip brands, as you said, Mads, have less appetite for risk, but also have less appetite to really insert themselves into the culture, into the zeitgeist, which is really interesting because I would say that's a conflicting value with how Alex Cooper has positioned the Unwell brand. So would you say that the risk right now is that her vision or her values could potentially be diluted by this partnership for the agency arm of it?

22:27Potentially. Yeah, I can see that being an issue down the track for sure. Let's stay on the business story. As we mentioned, there are a lot of ums of unwell. So I hope that all of our listeners are like staying with us on this one. But Alex Cooper has a drink brand, Unwell Beverages. What are your thoughts? What's your hot take on Unwell Beverages? My hot take is it's the 2025 version of vitamin water. Oh, good hot take. Yeah. Do you remember, I felt like vitamin water in the early 2000s were cemented in culture. Also, shout out to whoever got that deal done with Gossip Girl. The amount of product placement by Vitamin Water had across all of those seasons.

23:06It's still in my brain. I will never forget it. I think 50 Cent had something to do with Vitamin Water as well, which is so random. But when I think Vitamin Water, I actually think of Jennifer Aniston. Right. Okay. Interesting you say that though, because my point on that is celebrities and people of influence love to play in the beverage category. Oh, yeah. It's big in alcohol, in non-alcoholic, in I would classify this as a almost like a wellness drink, the way it's positioned, having the electrolyte element of it. Also, did you know that Unwell Beverages is the main sponsor of the American female soccer team?

23:39I did know that because Alex Cooper used to play college soccer. She did. I told you I was a fan. She's a fan. She's a fan. Interesting take on Unwell Beverages kind of being reminiscent of vitamin water. For me, it felt like in current days, this was a real like fuck you to prime, which is owned by Logan Paul. Yes. And KSI, who is a British YouTuber. And I feel like this is the feminine YTG, fuck that, no way known girl version of it. It's fully the female antidote to prime. Thank you. That's the word I've been trying to spit out. I'm so glad you went there. And honestly, I did not think of that before you said it, but you were bang on.

24:20It's also the way it's branded is way cooler. Yeah. I do think Unwell Beverages is branded and marketed really well. In saying that, it feels the most left of field in the Unwell business for me. I see merch and I see product as a really great way to market your brand, Unwell. That is evident by the fact that you, did you not come up with the concept for Shameless Merch? I'm exposed. No, it's a really great way for your community to also be a marketing tool for you. Yeah, it's a walking billboard. A walking billboard. We love to say that. In saying that, I think it plays into the old Alex Cooper, like the OG look and feel of Call Her Daddy.