Triangl's Co-founder Erin Deering on the cost of success

26:14They know that it's the lay of the land. You have an opportunity to win your customer over by giving them some of the experiences that an influencer or content creator would get. I think some brands do this really well. They're really mindful of that. I still think there's a huge opportunity for that and to keep them very separate and different. And for me, the one thing I say over and over again, and it's probably really relevant to content creators and creating content and picking the people you want to give to and partner with and do things with, don't just do things for the sake of it. Everything has to feel intentional.

26:45Word of the pod, you know, it's really important. And that just means taking more, taking your time with it and building relationships. Like we've built relationships now with a bunch of girls in Melbourne already for the brand. We haven't really touched Sydney yet. We will. Um, but it's gotta be people that have already bought from my brand or want to, or buying from similar brands. And it can be a moving target too. You know, like you can work with someone for a bit and gift them and have, and then that can like move away and someone else can come in. That's how it should work too. Yeah. Because then it is organic.

27:18And then it does feel like there's integrity behind it because you're picking people that you do want to actually be the mouthpiece for your brand. You know, that's important. You know, back in the triangle era, didn't matter. Didn't matter. No one cared. It was great. Whatever. Everyone loved everyone. It was just a happy time. Gifting, gifting, gifting. Everyone excited just to get a gift and no one was monetizing anything and Instagram wasn't. There was no paid ads. So it was just, the algorithm was chronological. It was a good time. It's a great time. That time's done. It's a bit easier. It's not that easy anymore, especially with MetaPaid partnerships.

27:52It is so hard. Like there are days when I'm like, I am done with social media. I love it and hate it, you know, because it's a different beast. And it's now just complete different set of skills and thought processes around how you grow, how you scale, how you interact with content creators. They're businesswomen, businessmen, they're savvy. But at the same time, they still love their brands that they love. So if you find that relationship with them, the right ones, then you can still have an organic, exciting experience where they don't need much. It's not transactional, you know, but you've got to just work harder to nurture that and find them.

28:30I also think the consumer is so much more switched on and can see through easily if a partnership or even a gifting strategy, if it feels slightly off, you've lost the consumer straight away. Yeah. I do want to come back to your point around not gifting in the first 12 months. Talk me through how you got to that decision. Oh, I don't know. A lot of these is smart. Not sure. Look, it was just something I felt was right to do because I'd experienced it in such a different way through Triangle. It was so open season with Triangle. You know, everyone wanted to wear Triangle pretty early on. So we had everyone available to give to and we knew that they were going to post about it because everyone wanted to be seen as being gifted Triangle.

29:13So it was wonderful. I knew Deering wasn't going to have the same reach and the same pull, nor did I want it to feel that way either. So I just thought I'm going to close this off from myself and from everyone and I'm just going to focus on, you know, obviously there was a little bit of gifting here and there and I wouldn't even say gifting. It was just if I'd spoken to someone and I liked them, I'd be like, here, have something. But it was only case by case, really only through me. There was no strategy around it. It wasn't a strategy as such. No, not at all. It was abhoc. Yeah, like looking back, I'm like, I don't know, I probably wouldn't have been so strict on that.

29:46It just happened that way. It's not something that I think I'll look back in five years and be like, that was an amazing decision and it really built the – but you don't know. You know, I think Deering has been able to build a lot of brand integrity and positioning really quickly and perhaps a lot of it is because of that, because it has been seen as this lesser-known brand through not saturating it. And I also just – I get really nervous about – because Triangle was different. People – flat lays were a big thing. So people didn't even have to wear it. It was like, photo, and that was enough. You know, I didn't want people being sent things that they would never wear, then they'd put it on and it wouldn't look right.

30:19And then we'd feel obliged to repost it. It's the same. That's the same issues that it's always been. I didn't want that for the brand in the beginning. I wanted to really own all the creative. I wanted to own what was out there. If there was any, you know, user generated content, I wanted to be able to share that or not share that, not feel obliged because that was generally content created by people buying the pieces. So it was a slower burn, but felt it did feel a lot better to do it that way. And now that we're opening it up only a little bit, there's a lot of things we're opening up now after the first year.

30:49Um, it does feel nicer and everyone knows the brand now that are in that space anyway. So it's a nicer way going about it. Your gifting strategy from what I've seen on socials looks less like here's the product we're sending it to you more, come in, experience the brand, touch, feel. Yeah. Also the experiential space that you've created. I know at the moment you're promoting your new eyewear range and that seems to be, you know, an actual sensory experience that the creators that you're working with are coming through, they're experiencing the brand firsthand. Then the product, product is almost secondary.

31:21Yeah. Yeah. Which look, I don't know. I don't know if that's like the smart thing. But you're learning as you go. Yeah. You know, and I love it. I love experiential retail, experiential customer experience. You know, I love that side of business. It's what I want to do. It's how I want to bring a brand into the world today. So for me, I couldn't do it. I couldn't just have a gifting strategy where I send a lookbook and said, pick your things. It just doesn't feel right for our brand, but it works for so many other brands. And I do look at them and think, Oh, they're getting a big reach by doing that.

31:51You know, like I get sent, I don't really accept much gifting at all. Like rarely. Um, and when I do, it's usually from the people that have done something that piques my interest. Like if I'm getting sent a lookbook just to pick a few pieces from all the time, I'm like, thanks, but no thanks. Cause I'm actually not going to wear any of this and I don't want to just take it and then give it to a friend. Like that's, I just don't like that. It's a bad energy transaction. You've spoken about really struggling behind the scenes with Triangle when it was at its peak. From the outside, you were living the high life.

32:18What was it about that level of success that you found most challenging? The isolation. Yeah, it was, it was a few things. It was the lack of connection, which is the isolation. The lack of connection was mainly driven by me in a way, because when I started to feel like I wasn't loving what I was doing and that was like a big, you know, there's so many things at play there. It was very normal, you know. I think when you come into extreme wealth, you're so busy. I'd also had my first baby at the same time in the same year that Triangle had its biggest year. It was just huge, just huge hormonal shifts and physical shifts.

32:53We moved to Monaco that year and all these things. So that probably would have felt quite normal, you know, to feel a bit confused and loss of identity. But what I did was didn't want anyone to know that I wasn't living the dream. I didn't want anyone, family, friends, anyone to, and a few reasons, I personally felt like I wanted to keep the illusion going. And I felt really ungrateful that I was suddenly a multimillionaire with more money than, you know, anyone I'd ever known to have and not loving my life. Like I can't, I can't whinge to anyone back home who's still living paycheck to paycheck or just, you know, in their late 20s.

33:30So I just held it in. I just suppressed it. I pushed it down. I pushed it down. I pushed it down. I didn't see anyone. I didn't talk to anyone. I didn't do anything about it. I just was trying to push it away, which as we all would know, if anyone does any work on themselves, it's not possible. You can't push them away. You're just pushing them down, which is going to come out in terrible ways later down the track, which it did. So, yeah, it was really just that combination and just not being honest and not being vulnerable. and that didn't happen until I moved back to Australia and the first time I told anyone was actually Hugh Van Kylenberg who I saw two days ago.

34:05I haven't seen him in ages. We've been friends for a really long time. I've known him for years and years and we caught up when I moved back home and I just was like to him and he just started his podcast and he said I want you to come on and tell your story and I did and I was still in the thick of it when I told that story but it was the first time I was vulnerable and I felt the shift in that not only for myself going oh yeah I have a lot of work to do on myself but realizing how refreshing it was for people to hear it because they're on their own hamster wheel thinking if I'm just if I get to where she is or anywhere near her I'll be happy too I'll be fulfilled yeah and here I was going no it's not the answer I wasn't fulfilled so it was a big shift how did the people you're closest with you were saying you know you found you couldn't even open up to them and then you went on this podcast how did they respond when You went on the podcast.

34:52Yeah, look, they probably knew a little bit, I would imagine, because I'd moved back to Australia very suddenly. When I exited the business in 2018, I'd stayed in Monaco for six months. That was when I got at my worst because I felt so trapped there. Like I'd exited Triangle. I had nothing to do every day. I hated Monaco, especially when I had nothing to do. I would have nannies come and pick up the kids, but I didn't do anything. Like I just couldn't do anything. I just would like wander around the streets aimlessly. I didn't even, I didn't even want to shop, which was a big red flag for me. If I don't want to be buying things and loving that, you know.

35:28Um, and so I made this like snap decision to move back to Australia overnight and I left Monaco and actually didn't go back. I left my apartment fully. I had it packed up for me. Like I just left. And so when I got home, I think my family were like, Hey, what's up, you know, what's going on. And then I was sort of trying to ignore it for a little bit and not do anything about it. And then when I, when I went on the podcast, was it about the same time I was starting to see some people and start to do some work and start to unpack why I was so unhappy and so miserable and so flighty. Like I was, it was like I was disconnected from my body.

36:03It was like, I was just walking around up in the clouds and watching myself being like, who is that? And how do I connect back in? It was like, truly, like when I think back on it, it was that my spirit, like my whole sense of self was detached from my physical body and it was for a really long time yeah it was pretty full-on I'd made I'd made I'd set myself back a lot good on you though for being really transparent and open about that as you said it is surprising when you share that one how much of a relief you feel but also how much it brings other people closer to you because they then can understand oh there's shit going on but also I liked your point around other people that looking up to you who are also on that hamster wheel being like oh if I do this I can get to where she is it's also a nice reminder that money doesn't equal happiness?

36:48Not at all. Like at all. Like money absolutely helps with, you know, the financial freedom's phenomenal and it's amazing. It takes so much stress out of it, but it doesn't mean anything if there's not a fulfillment within you or a happiness within you. You know, it's, it's simple stuff. We all know this, but we see online people living their best lives and we just believe that to be true. And I was living that dream life. I wasn't being vulnerable. I mean, vulnerable, you know, if it was maybe five years down the track, I'd perhaps have shared more during that time and found that but like absolutely not during then.

37:19Like no one spoke on Instagram about the truth. You know, we weren't even really doing video in 2018. Video wasn't even a thing. People weren't talking to camera really, you know. It's another time. On the theme of money, how has your relationship with money changed since then? It's always evolving. It's always evolving. And I don't want to say it because I feel like if you speak it into the universe you make it true but I've never been great with money. I've always been that paycheck to paycheck person. I don't, I've never in the past valued it as much as I should have. So when we came into all this money, there was still, I guess, a lot of fear of it going away.

37:54I used to panic that even when, you know, we were selling a thousand bikinis a day or 2000 or whatever it was, that like one day it would just stop. Like I just didn't have this understanding of what that would, like why every day are a thousand people choosing to buy a triangle bikini? This could stop tomorrow. So I had this like fear that it would go away. And that fear for me manifested in trying to spend as much as possible before it left, which is a diabolical way to think about money and a relationship to have. I've definitely become so much more mindful. To be honest, though, it's not until I started this business where I really stepped into thinking about it.

38:32You know, even when I started Deering, I threw a lot of money at the business that I shouldn't have. I don't regret it, but it was frivolous. and I'm now sort of like in this year or like the second half of the year just starting to grow up a little more even with that because it is ever evolving like I didn't ever learn how to manage lots of money and I also didn't really align with the people telling me about it that were men respectfully older men telling me how to manage my money a lot of the way they're telling and like I have a great team that manage my money I'm not talking about them they're amazing but it was just all new.

39:07Like what do you do? Do you invest? Do you buy property? Do you do this? Do you do that? And for me it was just I just didn't even want to hear about it. I was like I don't really, like I just want to make more money. That was my thing. I was like I just want to keep making money and to live a comfortable life. And then people are like well what does that mean? You know, what do you want? Like we've got to protect your money. We've got to do this. That was just a lot. I still don't find that, you know, when I say I want to make money, it's more that I want to do something to make money. Like I want to just do something that has an income for me or has a purpose, you know.

39:39So, yeah, it's like constantly evolving. Triangle obviously had these lofty big, big, big numbers around it, like huge numbers. And everyone sees$200 million and assumes that I have that in the bank. When I exited Triangle, we went on a four-year legal battle and we eventually settled. And I can tell you that it was nowhere near what everyone thinks that it might be. So, like, I'm not in a financial position. even though everyone sees me, I'll always spend a lot of money on fashion. So if you see Bottega pieces, that's not, I don't know if thousands of them, I do love fashion. I will always invest and spend my money on fashion.

40:12I have literally since I was a teenager, like my paycheck would always go to like, I would save up for a Subie jumper. I'd buy an Acne Studios blazer when I was like 18 years old. Like it is always the top tier of what I'll spend my money on. But I'm not as wealthy as people assume that I am. And that's fine as well. You know, I think that the relationship I have with, with money has gotten better. The more I talk about that too, the more I'm like honest with that, because again, there's this projection of me being a certain way and people put, people probably put me on a pedestal thinking that I never have to worry about money again.

40:47I don't have to worry about money. Like I don't worry, but I have to be mindful of it. People can also spend hundreds of millions of dollars. Like you, like there's those stories every day of people that get investments wrong. And that was my thing too. I didn't want to invest in things and, and I didn't want a property portfolio that was crazy because I just didn't want to have to manage it. And I just wanted to simplify. So like, I have a few nice things now that are assets that are protecting me and the rest goes into my business and I don't pay myself a salary. And I love that. I actually love the normalcy, like the, the, the normality of that, You know, the thing that I hated about having so much money that I've realized was I didn't want to live in that upper echelon of that wealth level.

41:33It is a really, it's fine, but it's not a place I want to be in. For me, and maybe this is my own stuff I need to work on, but it represents disconnection and it represents isolation. I really love the normal life that we have now where, yes, I'm in a fortunate position, but it's normal. You know, I'm not like rolling around buying a Lamborghini, thinking about, you know, first class holidays with families to here and there. I don't know how to raise kids if I'm worth hundreds of millions of dollars and they're coming into generational wealth. Like I don't want that on my plate. It's just a lot more work that you have to put into your children, which is fine to do.

42:10But I would just rather it be a more normal experience that I had. And they do have that, you know, they do. Like they would, I mean, they go to a great school and we live in a great area. So there's a lot of privilege there. I'm not saying there isn't, but it's not detached. I mean, also when you're one of four as well, your siblings keep you humble. Oh yeah. There's no, yeah. Like they're not, you know, like they don't. They're not precious. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. There's none of that. They're like pretty real. So you told AFR you were terrified of being on the young rich list because it was at odds with Triangle's affordable, accessible branding and because you felt like an imposter.

42:45Did Craig ever worry about that perception? Yeah, yes. Yeah. I mean, we asked them to not be on the list. We didn't want to. And they would just every year put us in. I think we were in it for five years in a row, but we asked them to not put us in. And then every year they would send an email and they would guesstimate our net worth. There was no, they'd do it off the occasional interview that we'd give or whatever article that was written and they would just guess. And then they'd put that in. And I loved it for my dad because he was so proud. And like, you would be, you know, like that's cool.

43:17That's like a really big deal for a parent to have their kid in the young rich list. And like I and I secretly loved it because like anyone that like ex-boyfriends are like, huh, you're looking at that? Do you think the consumer ever clocked it or? No, no, no. Like we obviously really didn't want to be positioned in that way because, you know, that was really, really true. We didn't want that perception, but like no one, because we didn't live in Australia, we would never really put in the tall poppy syndrome category. I've never really experienced it, you know, and I really do think that's because we were overseas for it.

43:50So we just, if we were, if we were here out in the public doing things, you know, and we were two founders that stayed very much behind the scenes on purpose, we would have experienced that, but we didn't. And I feel like it was something that just would come out and it was a bit of a non-event, you know, we never heard anything about it. It never affected anything. Our customer database also for Triangle was predominantly in the US. So like, they're not looking at the young rich list for an Australian little small fright for them yeah no they're not really they're not really caring so it didn't really impact um anything other than you know my dad was proud I love that my parents would be so proud as well yeah yeah so according to your website after triangle you vowed never to return to the fashion game famously what changed yeah it was a few I mean you know I wrote a book and I was done a podcast and I'd done I'd done everything else.

44:40I was like mentoring and advising and looking at maybe then investing in other businesses. And I just had this weird sort of just ping and it was kind of there, but I just ignored it because I just didn't think that I had it in me. And then when I wrote the book, the process of writing the book was like closing the chapter for Triangle. And that chapter closing is what allowed me the space to go. I actually really do want to do this. Like I'm not done. And I want to do something that I want to do. And I want to put something out into the world that feels really good. Zach, my husband recalls, we were on the book tour and walking from Bondi to Bronte and on the walk from Bondi to Bronte, I was talking about something else on the way back.

45:18I was like, I'm going to start a fashion brand. And he's like, and you just did, you were in the middle of selling your book booked and you just were like pivot bang. And then I did. And then it was three months later we were working on it and I had a small team and it was, it was happening. So one thing we can gather today is you're a doer. Yeah. You say something, you do it. So So this was 2024. You've launched a fashion label Deering. Obviously, fashion is an incredibly oversaturated market. How did you make sure that Deering would stand out? For me, the intention behind the brand that everyone has that, you know, every founder and creative director and designer has an intention.

45:55They know what they want to put out. They know the feeling. They know they have the integrity. I wanted to verbalize that a little more. I wanted to put that in the forefront of what I was doing and why I was doing it. And so I felt like that would be a pretty strong differentiator. I also saw a gap that I still see a gap in the global market for the price point that we're at, that real mid tier that isn't an elevated basic. I agree. There's great and I love, you know, sometimes dressing like that sometimes, but I wanted to bring something that had a little bit of flair, but still in that casual dressing area.

46:26You know, we've got a lot of the simple brands, which are beautiful. And then we've got event dressing, but we don't have that in between kind of like the golden era of like the Sasson Bides and And when Zimmerman did a bit more, they're still girly dressy, but a little more casual in there as well. They went down that path and there was like Shakahachi and Marie and Eve are really big and they were fun. It was fun fashion. There's not much like that in the Australian market. And it's time for a few more brands to put out some stuff that's more fun. I agree. It's also sometimes I look at the Australian landscape and if you took the label off, everything looks the same.

47:00It looks the same. And I'm so fearful of that. It's why like everything has a little design detail and all these differentiators, all these little like touch points. Everything's very considered in that way because I need that to make a decision for me to want to wear something. It needs to have that just enough. It's a point of difference. Yeah. The consumer sees that as well though, in the details. And I feel as a shopper, I'm gravitating more towards brands where I feel like they have more of a distinctive voice, look and feel. Yes. Don't get me wrong. I'm sitting here wearing head to toe Australian brands, like very standard outfit.

47:32But there are times when I'm investing in everyday pieces where I wanted to say a bit more. Yeah. Like do more. Yeah. And you know what? Also the landscape is still very much in the simple, beautiful, chic looks. Like I'm still finding myself doing that, you know, like it's there, I think, you know, and I was so excited to see fashion month wrap with all these brands doing really exciting developmental, experiential texture, colour, all this play, because that, I guess it's quite luxury or that minimalist, that aesthetic is definitely, cause it's so cyclical fashion and you just want to be in at the right time.

48:08You know, like if, if Deering had launched five years ago with this offering, it, it wouldn't have jumped to where it's kind of jumped to already, but because people are starting to kind of go, Ooh, like, Ooh, I think I can do that. Like, I think I want to actually, like, I think I've worn enough simple stuff every day. And now I want to add that little bit in. I'm there. That's me for sure. Yeah. So Triangle gave you a playbook for building a successful brand, but I'm really keen to know what you're doing differently with Deering. Are there things you did with Triangle that you wouldn't do now?

48:37No, no. I mean, yes, the carefree gifting strategy is just not of this time for our brand. So that I'm not doing, but a lot of it's really similar. The customer experience, putting the customer first, a real focus on the packaging, a real focus on the customer care side of it being always available. That is something that is, it's more that the things are actually the same. A lot of it is the same, but I would never gift in that same way. Obviously at Triangle, and I did this at the start of Dearing, I tried to, even though I called the brand my surname, I was trying to stay behind the scenes.

49:12I didn't want to be founder led, but I'm kind of realising that was a silly decision to want to do that because a lot of the customers really like the alignment with me. You know, a lot of people are following me. They're following Deering for my style. They're seeing how Deering is an extension of my style. And I'm like, why am I not leaning into that? Like, I don't have to get on and be like, you know, talking about like the intricacies of the business, but talking about it with a creative lens was silly to not lean into that. So I'm leaning into that more as we go along. And at Triangle, we obviously would not have ever touched that as a front facing kind of as founders.

49:49Interesting. So I would love to know what are your trend predictions or projections for the upcoming season? Going by, I'm trying to think how much of a reference what we've just seen in this fashion month plays into it. But I think for spring, summer, it's going to be a lot of like midi skirts, a dropped waist, a lower rise. I think people are going to dress up more. So a bit more embellishment, a bit more sequins. I'm seeing a lot of sequins at the moment. Yes, yeah. And I think sequins like mixed back with like just a T-shirt. It's how I like to dress. Like we keep, we don't make it all full on.

50:24We just have like a very casual bit with like one punchy piece. You know, it's hard to, I'm hesitating on saying this because everything that we're doing at Deering over spring, summer, I feel is what I'm trying to do because I feel like it's going to be what's popular, you know, because you always want to be, right? Like I'm like a mainstream brand. I'm commercial. I'm trying to sell some stuff. I'm not going to do anything that's polarizing to that. so I'm just trying not to say too much that feels like a pitch well everyone's going to be wearing but I think you know it's summer right so we want easy dressing we want like a little touch point that's a little fun so that's why obviously we're so big on sets because for me it's time poor dressing it's like get up in the morning you put that on with that and you're ready to go I still love a texture combination clash I think we saw that with all the best shows of the season this year you know Chanel, Bottega, Miu Miu always do it they're plashing things a little bit I think that that's fun I think in summer you can do it more and look less crazy because in winter there's more layers so there's more opportunity to yeah stuff it up but like in the summer you can like do you know you can do it with an accessory I think that yeah we're just it I hope that it's a summer of a bit more experimental and a bit more fun you know I want I personally want people to be trying a little bit more to dress up for the everyday and experimenting with things like for example we have this incredible embellished skirt that's coming out in a couple of weeks it's really dressy but like wear it to work with a t-shirt yeah or a tank and a sandal you don't have to save it for the big event because the thing is that's what's predictable is to wear it to the event on a friday night like wear it to work on a wednesday and still wear it to the event on a friday night do it all do it all yeah that's kind of where i'm at with the trend predictions.

52:07I also, it's going to be a big shift to get people out of minimalist. I think that everyone's very comfortable with that at the moment, but hopefully we're all just going to experiment with like one thing. Have a little bit more fun. Great. Erin, thank you so much. You've given us so much. I also dig off script quite a bit because I just loved so many builds of the questions that you had. Thank you for sharing with us. And I'm so excited to see where Deering goes. It is such a progressive, exciting brand and you've done such an amazing job and I really appreciate your time. Pleasure. Thanks for having me guys.

52:47This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.