Dr. Max Butterfield: The Dating Dilemma — Choice, Chemistry, and the Illusion of the Instant Soulmate

18:06Dr. Max Butterfield:Nobody wants that. You know, it's much better to say like, I have a shortcut for you.

18:11Darin Olien:Let me sell you my course or whatever, you know.

18:14Dr. Max Butterfield:But the truth is it's pretty simple, but that doesn't mean it's easy. And that's what people get, I think, waylaid by is looking for ease over simplicity. Because the simple answer is get to know somebody. then ask for their number. You walk up to somebody in a bar, say, can I have your number? That will work sometimes to get a date. And maybe eventually you find somebody, you do that over and over again. Maybe. But it helps a lot if you know them. You've known them from work or school or you grew up together, whatever it is. Yeah.

18:50Darin Olien:I mean, and I guess that's where we have to come back to in terms of like, you know i i've had this happen where where you go hey let's let's grab a you know casual grab it you know get to know talking a little bit and then next thing you know like my spidey sense goes up and it is not about i feel like i'm just dishing out you know paychecks or or paying for stuff and and you're like yeah it's it's a thing right and la is a weird thing too LA is its own, it's its own animal, you know. What are the most, and maybe it's applicable today too, what's the most overlooked green flags that people should pay attention?

19:40Dr. Max Butterfield:It's like, are they nice to you? You know, I'm not a genius here, you know.

19:47Darin Olien:I know, but, you know, but that's, it's so funny because we, I'm laughing because it's so true. and is that you can tell instantly if someone's into you right or are you chasing them right they're not reciprocating a hey how are you right if they haven't said how are you totally then that's

20:11Dr. Max Butterfield:probably yeah they're not and i and i would add to that genuine curiosity yeah so when when you're talking do they ask questions to you that indicate that they've been listening to you for example You know, it's like if you're meeting for the second time and they say, hey, how's your mom? I know she was sick the last time. Right. That's a big deal.

20:29Darin Olien:Yeah.

20:30Dr. Max Butterfield:And not everybody does that. And people who have the capacity to do it won't if they don't like you very much. You know, so it's not that people are missing this ability. Right. It's that that can be a signal.

20:42Darin Olien:There's twofold, right? It's like, do they even have the capacity of empathy? Exactly. At the one hand. And on the other hand, do they actually care enough to actually engage in that kind of conversation and remember?

20:59Dr. Max Butterfield:And I do think, you know, there are times where people do care, but they don't have the immediate capacity because something's going on at work or because they're, you know, stressed with something at home or whatever. So I also wouldn't write somebody off immediately. Like I don't, the whole red flag, green flag thing, those are shortcuts again. It's like, can't they send me the bat signal so that I know this is the person for me? But in reality, you have to put their behavior in context. And it's true. And it takes time.

21:29Darin Olien:Yeah, it's true. Because it's like if someone just doesn't or they don't respond, like we're so used to text and respond. They didn't text me back. Yeah, it's been 24 hours. It's been two days. Right. And like... Before we continue the pod, I want to share something. I've tried so many supplements. I've been in the space for 25 years. And every so often, something really pops out. Mana Vitality is that difference. It's not just about adding minerals. It's about tuning your body to the higher frequency, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Because this is the mana from the earth, the She Legit, the Ormus minerals, and so on.

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23:01Darin Olien:My sleep improved, my skin glows, my stress goes down, my testosterone goes off, it's like my whole system is humming again. So if you're tired of low energy, brain fog, and or just not feeling the same and like something's missing, check out Mana. Go to manavitality.com. That's M-A-N-N-A vitality.com. Use the code Darren20 and you get 20 % off your order. This isn't about health. It's about living in harmony with your greatest and highest potential. Number one, you're not close enough so that they're going to tell you, hey, my father just went into the hospital. Totally. So they vanished. But we're so self-absorbed and insecure that we just run around going, oh, that's it.

23:52Darin Olien:They didn't.

23:53Dr. Max Butterfield:It's because of me.

23:54Darin Olien:Because they didn't like me or whatever. Yeah.

23:57Dr. Max Butterfield:I found I got a lot more, I don't know that I'd say empathy, but understanding for people as a result of my job as a professor. because you hear a lot of excuses as a professor. You know, my grandma died eight times. Like, that's weird, you know. But the truth is, when something's going on with a student, like I had a student, she was a great student, and then she just dropped off the map in this class. And it's like, you know, what happened? And early in my career, I think the tendency might have been to say, like, oh, she just doesn't care about this class anymore. Turns out she was going down to Tijuana every day to take care of her mom, who was diagnosed with cancer.

24:34Dr. Max Butterfield:And so instead of me being like, hey, you don't care about this class anymore, you need to show up. Just taking the time to find out what's going on in people's lives is so essential. And I don't think we do that as much anymore. And I don't know why that is exactly, but it's easy to get back to.

24:52Darin Olien:Yeah, just having a little bit of, well, again, isn't it the self-obsession? and the self-obsession isn't necessarily like me me me it's like i'm insecure right or i've got something going on and going also going back to what you're saying about if someone's not what i want them to be and the work that it will take to get to know them clearly that's also having a relationship naturally brings out things that are unconscious for you and for them and then you You have that whole other dynamic. And that to me, I think, is that unconsciousness part of ourselves doing push-ups in the parking lot all the time that has the trauma and that has the pain and has all that stuff.

25:48Darin Olien:and i.e. being a beautiful person, you can just keep switching around. And that thing is there potentially sabotaging someone who's actually good for you. So like how that I guess, you know, the age old human question also is not just a dating question is. How do we cultivate that inner peace and silence and listening ultimately? so we're mature enough, we're clear enough inside of ourselves, we know when our shit is up, and learning from that and clearing that at the same time of holding space for someone who's going through something or whatever. In this modern world and social and algorithms, it's just the opposite.

26:40Darin Olien:That to me is, I still go through things. at 54 years old. I was like, holy shit. I literally was talking to my mom about my horrible birth process when I was three and a half pounds. I was just talking to her two weeks ago. I'm like, holy shit. My dad was a drunk. My brother was born. My mom was holding the ship down. The empathy just exploded, but also I had pain from there. The point is not to get into my therapy, but we're all walking around in in partials of our truth and masks of ourselves and every so often our empathy and love pop out and say hey we're cool but then the these other like now you add on top of it what we're talking about yeah social media algorithms how you look that's scary to me.

27:40Darin Olien:Because I think from a village perspective, 150 people in a village, there's kind of no escape. You know everybody. If someone's doing something, you kind of go, you know, you sort it out. But in this very populated world, we can silo ourselves and keep ourselves away from things that are painful from the past. And then we're running around. Like, how do you, I mean, this a whole other thing. And I'm curious because you're also teaching and you're also now on social. I mean, the patterns, the psychology, it's got to be freaking fascinating.

28:24Dr. Max Butterfield:Well, there's so much to consider in any individual person. You just think about what's going on in your life at any given moment. And then you add in your inner life to that. and then you multiply that by 8 billion or however many people we have, it's too complicated, you know, to really truly understand the dynamics of everyone. But I think what we can do, like you said, is invest more in our local relationships. And we've gotten away from that because of social media and because of just the globalization of our world. And so there's some good things about globalization. But the downside is we've lost community.

29:05Dr. Max Butterfield:and one thing I think we've also lost is accountability so you mentioned you know you live in a village 150 people maybe smaller you know early human history you might know like 30 people in your life and so if you screw one of them over you're in big trouble yeah you're gonna die probably you know you get cut out of your group you know you're alone yeah you're in big trouble their dad their mom are right there and they're gonna start thumping you right exactly and so i think we were better self-regulators in the past than we are now we we we don't have that level of accountability it's like you know if you're a salesperson you you trick somebody into buying something they don't like it it's a bad product there's no accountability for that and

29:51Darin Olien:you'll probably never see them never see them again yeah back in the day not even that long

29:55Dr. Max Butterfield:ago in human history, a couple hundred years, you lose your reputation in your community. And so I think part of it is we've lost our self-regulation skills. And you also see it emotionally. You see these videos of some guy getting the wrong burrito at Taco Bell, and so he smashes the fish tank or whatever. And that's based on a real video that I saw. I mean, it sounds like a made-up example, but that happens. People from an early age need to be taught how to regulate their emotions, how to calm down. And so when you see somebody doing that as an adult, that means that they don't have that skill.

30:34Darin Olien:That's literally stuck in time. Their five-year-old is showing that. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. I don't want to date that person. Oh. Yeah.

30:44Dr. Max Butterfield:And so that plays in.

30:45Darin Olien:But you also don't find that out. You don't know. Because they're not showing that. They're not reposting that one. No. No, that doesn't go on the Tinder profile, you know.

30:57Dr. Max Butterfield:It's not in the Bumble profile. Smashed a fish tank at Taco Bell. Yeah. But you'll find that out eventually. Jesus Christ. But then, you know, then there's somebody else right around the corner. They probably have the same issues. Right. So it's just, it's a complicated situation. But I think it starts within rather than without.

31:17Darin Olien:Yeah.

31:17Dr. Max Butterfield:In other words, like, we need to get our act together. I'm curious about this one.

31:24Darin Olien:and this goes more, you know, listen, you can look at it from, you could look at it esoterically, you could look at it as magnetically, chemically, like pheromones. I mean, we can look, so you're attracting people, and they're attracted to you. What are you finding like holds up in terms of like, am I literally because I felt abandoned at four? Yeah. Am I literally finding something and I haven't healed it?

31:55Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

31:56Darin Olien:Does that occur more oftentimes than not that I've literally attracted someone to reflect all of that? But I'm not saying this isn't either like this isn't a perfect scenario. Life is complicated. But does that do you see that as? Yeah, that happens a lot.

32:14Dr. Max Butterfield:Well, something that I think is really interesting is that what we say is often different than what we actually want, especially when it comes to attraction. So in our research lab, we've done studies showing that people say they want a personality match. They want a values match. What they want is someone physically attractive. That's what happens when you actually get down to brass tacks. People who get together are the ones who are physically attracted to one

32:41Darin Olien:another is is that straight up like from a healthy perspective are you are you saying is that a healthy thing yeah i mean or is that just show up mostly as just ah just like i mean i don't think it's unhealthy exactly but if the only after that if the only compatibility you have is physical

33:03Dr. Max Butterfield:attraction no you're not gonna have a good time right you know and so that's that's where people struggle is they stop there. And they do want the personality match. They do want the values match. And those are the things that predict long lasting relationships. Physical attraction matters. It predicts whether you get together, whether you stay together, though. That's a different question

33:23Darin Olien:because your attractiveness changes over time. And it's the hierarchy of like, if I, so, so what you're saying from that, from those studies is like, I'm saying I want these personalities, but But in truth, their truth is I want this first or I want this more than I want. Or you're not, maybe even not willing to take the time to find out, like, are we a good match together?

33:44Dr. Max Butterfield:Right. You know, do we have compatibility beyond do I find this person hot or not?

33:49Darin Olien:Yeah. And sometimes that's a reckoning. Yeah. Because you try to push, you project and you try to push them into it or talk to your friends and make arguments that, yeah, yeah, we have great time together. Right. In truth, you're like, you're sitting there across the room going, is that enough? Right.

34:06Dr. Max Butterfield:And I think for most people, there comes a point, use that word reckoning, there comes a point where there is a reckoning. And you have to come to grips with the fact that it is almost certainly not going to be enough over the long term. So that's the question is what are your goals? Are your goals to have fun? Fine. Go based on attractiveness. Swipe all you want to find that next person. But if your goal is a long-lasting, healthy, satisfying relationship, And again, we know it's pretty simple what you need to do, but that doesn't mean that it's easy.

34:37Darin Olien:In terms of chemistry, like how important, because like I can, I can, we all can in front of someone instantly, like I can feel attracted to us. And at the same time, I can get more attracted to someone if they're like smart and quick and funny and like, holy cow. I didn't even see that coming. All of a sudden, you're looking at them physically. Wait a minute here. Yeah, you're looking at them physically on the surface. Maybe that wasn't the first impulse. Right. But I've had several relationships. I've had all of it.

35:13Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

35:14Darin Olien:You know, one of my most successful was my marriage that I had. We're divorced now. Yeah. But Eliza, you know, beautiful. Yeah. But smart, funny, quick, just wicked sharp. And when we were in that zone, we were just, it was an unbelievable, because we could see and we're in that zone where you're seeing and feeling and experiencing. You know that that person is picking up on what you're picking. So that's incredible.

35:48Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

35:49Darin Olien:So I guess my point is there's chemistry of, right? Yeah. Right? And then there's, to your point, maybe the shift of like, I really want to talk to this person because my morals, my ethics, my education, my worldview. And then all of a sudden, you're like, well, this person's quite amazing. So I guess my question is how important is, I'm probably answering it. Isn't that funny?

36:19Dr. Max Butterfield:If you just let people go, a lot of times they get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.

36:23Darin Olien:It's so funny. But I guess let's ask it this way. Sure. Is chemistry real? Yeah. I mean. And what is that from your perspective?

36:34Dr. Max Butterfield:Well, and what I would say is.

36:36Darin Olien:Because when you see people with chemistry, too, you're going, wow. Yeah. You can see it.

36:41Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah. And I think it's important to, you know, make a distinction between, like, the physical chemistry. Right. Molecules. and then the chemistry that we think of as like personality match, like being good together, they're related. But sometimes people use those definitions interchangeably and they're not interchangeable, you know. So, yeah, we don't know as much as we could know about like pheromones, the influence of hormones. We're looking into it, but it takes time, you know, to explore these things. We have new tools that we didn't have, you know, 50 years ago, for example. So the science is ongoing there.

37:16Dr. Max Butterfield:What we know is that, yeah, hormones absolutely influence behavior for sure. But what's weird is behavior influences hormones. So if you act like you like somebody, guess what? You probably will like them. And so that's where, personally, I like to emphasize the behavioral side. So you're having trouble in your relationship. You're struggling. There are things that we can do to help you with that that will change your chemistry, both the interpersonal chemistry and the actual physical chemistry. It's really remarkable if you think about it. It doesn't require pills, doesn't require any kind of surgical intervention, nothing like that, but you can change your brain through behavior.

37:59Darin Olien:That's psychology. Yeah, and that has a massive chemical effect on your body. It really does. If you're stressed all the time, we know that that's not a good situation. deal situation so what are some of those techniques that you use to get people to yeah there's there's

38:15Dr. Max Butterfield:a lot of research showing that the way that people um deal with their conflict yeah is make or break

38:22Darin Olien:for their relationship and so so when the shit goes sideways how are you relating exactly yeah

38:28Dr. Max Butterfield:yeah and there's some research by this guy named john gotman he's like the godfather of relationship research and his big thing is contempt. You don't want to see contempt in a relationship. It's really not a good sign. I don't like to phrase things as a negative because that doesn't really help people. It's like, don't be contemptuous. Okay, what does that mean? So the question is, how do you, you're going to argue, how do you argue well? And in some ways it depends, you know, person to person. And so doing something like couples therapy for people can be really helpful just to learn, like to practice, to role play.

39:02Dr. Max Butterfield:Like, okay, if he says this, what are you going to say? And how are you going to change this frame that you've been using that's not working? And so a lot of times you have to, there is no one-size-fits-all advice. You have to look at somebody's relationship and say, what's not going right here and how can we tweak it?

39:21Darin Olien:Yeah, because if you're just emotionally reacting too, then you're coming from your emotional body, you're mostly unconsciousness, and now you're just batting back and forth and potentially making things worse. So the tools, because I would imagine what you would say too, because you all say, oh, we never argue. Yeah. Like, okay. Really? Like, what is that? But if you argue all the time and it's not productive, that's not very dangerous right and and you see those relationships where they respect is gone yeah so then they're barking at each other so then how about how big is that like respect both ways

40:07Dr. Max Butterfield:respect is big and i think it's important to define what you mean by respect just i mean in general not you personally because it's like i respect grizzly bears but i don't want one in my bed. So what is that? So for me, respect is about kindness more than reverence, more than fear. I don't think that's actually super helpful in a relationship. Kindness, reciprocity, that to me is what respect is all about. And so different people will have different expectations for kindness. So like what it means to be kind to you, that might be different than what I would want from a partner to be kind to me, you know?

40:52Dr. Max Butterfield:And so getting to know someone deeply and just speaking openly. Again, you know, I'm not a genius.

40:58Darin Olien:It's like, say what you want. Right, right.

41:01Dr. Max Butterfield:That's hard though.

41:03Darin Olien:Well, yeah, I love the term and it's also hard, like this radical honesty approach. Like, let's talk about that a little bit Because there's things that, you know, on the surface, tell them everything. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. But maybe some things that it would actually cause them harm in a certain sense. But ultimately, people are very afraid, I think, generally speaking about whether they're in a relationship or not, about just like saying what's true for them. Because it's probably going to be uncomfortable. Like I literally this this this weekend it was with family who lives in Minnesota. And I'm like, oh, it's one of those days I got to have that conversation with that person, that conversation.

41:55Darin Olien:And it's I'm trying to set my energy so it can like do it supportively. Yeah, because I intuit it's going to come with some a little bit of contention, but I don't want to create that. I wouldn't want to add to it. So I'm losing myself in what I was trying to say. But it's, what was I saying? Well, the question is about this radical honesty. Yeah, so the honesty of like, I know I need to be straight up with someone. Right. Right? And just, this is what's going on.

42:30Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

42:31Darin Olien:And by the way, I had another weird thing happen with a guy I was working with eight years working on my house. And he was doing some, I found out, he took some money. Right? And it wasn't small. And I'm like, one of those days. You know, call the cops or just go straight at it. And I'm from Minnesota. This is a learned activity. That's what I was going to say.

42:58Dr. Max Butterfield:Minnesota, nice. You say, you know, do you want a casserole? Hot dish. Oh, yeah, you know, that's old.

43:05Darin Olien:and then you get uncomfortable and put more potatoes in your, you know. So it was a learned activity, but it's so powerful. Yeah. It's so, and it's also like at this point I go, I'm going to do it, never mean, ever.

43:22Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah. But I'm going to do it direct and let the universe sort it out.

43:27Darin Olien:They're going to be in my life or not in my life, depending on how they want to respond to this kind of stuff. Absolutely. And so in a relationship, God, if that's not one of the most attractive things for me. Sure. Is someone who's just like, even though sometimes it's coming at you and you go, fuck. But I know when someone's called me out on something, like they just go, think. Yeah. And you go, oh, it's totally true. You know what I mean?

43:56Dr. Max Butterfield:And it's a balance, too, because there are some people who that would be a huge turn off. Right. Rather than a turn off. Depends on how many times they're doing it.

44:03Darin Olien:It does. No, it really varies.

44:05Dr. Max Butterfield:And so I think.

44:07Darin Olien:Not too much.

44:07Dr. Max Butterfield:No.

44:11Dr. Max Butterfield:There's a line for sure where you don't have to say everything where you can still be honest. You know, you don't have to open the floodgates to get your point across and to say, this is what I need. There are times when you might want to open the floodgates or there are times when you should, you know, be absolutely direct. But there are also times when it's not socially acceptable to do that. So you have to kind of find that line. Yeah. You know, like, when can I? And one time somebody, this was before I had kids, I was at an event, and somebody said, do you want to hold a baby? Because they had a new baby.

44:43Dr. Max Butterfield:And I said, no, thank you. You know, it's like holding a live salmon. Like, what if I drop it? Right. You know? And I don't know how to hold a kid at that point. Were they close to you? Not really. No, not really. Yeah. A little weird. But then everyone was like, I can't believe you just said that. Like, you know, like elbowing me. And so that it takes time to learn.

45:02Darin Olien:The time I choose. Yeah, exactly.

45:05Dr. Max Butterfield:And so it takes time to learn what is going to be socially appropriate in a given situation, in a given relationship. But ultimately, open communication is nearly always the best path, you know, forward. And the bonding.

45:24Darin Olien:Oh, huge. The bonding between, you know, maybe there's a conflict. But going back to your point, like, how are you arguing? Like, how are you both coming into that and doing it in a careful but open way? How is it safe? Yeah. Right? Safety is a big thing. Right. For all of us. Like, I got a wound. You just saw it. now in order for it to exercise itself out or liberate it for a possible healing of some sort, I've got to feel enough safety in that. But if someone's barking at me and making me wrong for 2 ,700 things, there's no safety in that. So now I shut back down. And, you know, so that part of relationship is like, what is that magic?

46:18Darin Olien:Well, and they call it mutual disclosure. Okay, everybody. Are you ready to upgrade your operating system? I know I am. I'm always game to do that. Not just physically, but mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. That's what we're doing over at Super Life Patreon. This isn't just behind-the-scenes membership. It's a global experiment in conscious living that I am connected to, committed with in every cell of my body. Each week, you'll get exclusive access to deeper podcast conversations, extended interviews, voice notes from the road of me personally, personal reflections, behind-the-scenes footage, community wellness challenges, and even surprise drop-ins that I no longer do on social media because I don't really dig it anymore.

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47:53Dr. Max Butterfield:The key is if you share, they share back. And that is something that is widely understood to deepen relationships and deepen them quickly. Sometimes even too quickly. You have to be careful about it. You know, you're on a first date. You disclose something big. They disclose something big back. Now, all of a sudden, you're like, oh, man, we have this incredible relationship. No, you just met yesterday or whatever. But, yeah, doing that and having the safety to be able to share what you feel and have them share back, you want to talk about a green flag. That's a really good sign. On the other hand, if you're constantly vomiting these issues and they never really are interested in disclosing back or they don't seem to care all that much, yeah, that's probably a red flag.

48:37At least you're not that compatible.

48:41Dr. Max Butterfield:Right.

48:41Darin Olien:Yeah. Certainly indicators of vulnerability is really good to pick up on. Right. At least someone to be open with. Right. But constant, I guess, too much, too soon. I mean, I've had some, I guess, getting to know people, but I have some good relationships. I remember several dates in, and all of a sudden the floodgate opened. Like, this is who I am. This is what I am. And at that time, I was like, cool. But I would have sprinted if it was date one. Right. I'd be like, holy crazy. It's got to be at the right time.

49:21Dr. Max Butterfield:Holy crazy town.

49:22Darin Olien:Right? Yeah. What's the funniest dating mistake you've ever seen someone make? Or whether it's maybe from your students, maybe it's from social media. Yeah. what what what's some of the could be stupid could be just why your people keep doing this like what what's some of that that you're seeing all the time well and so much of it has to do with

49:47Dr. Max Butterfield:just like either social awkwardness or an accident you know like there's an old joke about someone like farting in the cab not realizing that the mom was in the back seat you know like so so much Much of it is just people doing stupid stuff. I don't know that I have anything that immediately comes to mind because so much stupid stuff actually happens.

50:11Darin Olien:Well, every day you're actually on social doing something. Yeah.

50:15Dr. Max Butterfield:And people make these mistakes that are easily remediable. And so I feel bad though, too. I prefer it to be just kind of humorous and light, just somebody going to the wrong restaurant or whatever.

50:30Darin Olien:But, you know, I, you know, I, you know, I'm finding it even like when we're I'm trying to ask you questions. There's so many variables. So I'm going to I'm going to use me as an example, not necessarily specific. But I I am wildly empathic. Like I can feel a lot and I've cultivated that. Like, certainly as a dude, I'm still that. But also, I always knew that I was a little different in my family. So I was feeling a lot. And when I feel a connection with someone, sometimes I'm like, oh, it's one way. That was a strange thing. I was in college. I'm like, how the fuck did I misread all of that? And so, what's my question?

51:28It's like, is there any, like if anything, when I feel something, I'm like, in life,

51:41Darin Olien:I go for it. That's just my, like the Minnesota Viking blood. Yeah. Right? I sense something and I'm just like, rah, let's go. And so when I feel something, especially I feel a connection, and then there's obviously an acknowledgement, and I just want it yesterday. Let's fucking see each other and get to know it. And I have to constantly pull the horses back all the time. Is there any kind of, now I'm asking for generally, sure but is there any kind of ways to like regulate that because number one if people are coming from a projection i want to feel like um that i'm insecure and i want to feel like people can come from that i can come from a genuine place of like no we have a fucking connection i know it goes both ways and I want to like I want to explore it is there any kind of general things in terms of like hey you have a first date it goes pretty well does any of that shit where people say well wait for three days or don't text right away or do you find that any of that is true I know that it's probably impossible to say universally.

53:03Darin Olien:But I would imagine some sort of governor of just let it be okay. You don't really know the person. Is any of that kind of true? Should I wait a little bit before I respond? When should I ask him out again? Does any of that hold up? Is there any research?

53:29Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah, no, I think that's a great question. Let's stick with the, just to like be specific, the question of should you text back immediately? Should you wait three days? Should you have some sort of holding period? No, there's no truth to that. Now, would that help a specific individual? Like if you know you tend to fall too fast, like, okay, yeah, maybe institute a waiting period for yourself. But is that going to work to attract a person better? No. You know, and also if you're the type of guy that wants to, after the date, be like, hey, this was awesome. Can I see you again? If you hold that piece of yourself back and you end up getting together with this person, is it going to work?

54:13Dr. Max Butterfield:Because that's not you. That's this other guy. Right. You need to find somebody who is a good match on that value of immediate connection. Right. And so, yeah, that stuff, not only is there no evidence for it, but I think there might even be evidence against it being a good idea because what it's doing is it's having you play a game. And if you want to play a game, like it's a classic, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. And the stupid prize in this case is an unhappy relationship, you know, because you're not finding people who are truly a match with you if you're changing yourself.

54:48Darin Olien:the man dude there there's a lot of programs out there that people will pay money for oh that that are the match guys right or the the pickup guys and there's a fuck social so so social there's some real shit that can happen with it but again what kind of net are you throwing out there right and and And since you're not really being authentic to you and you're in this programming that you're quote unquote learning or paying to learn. Like now what is that? So what's your stance on all of that? And then we go into matchmaking, which could be a little more authentic in terms of like questions and getting to know people.

55:37Dr. Max Butterfield:Well, so these programs, these systems, my question isn't will it work? Because it might. But work for what? That's my question is, what does it get you? And probably it gets you some dates. Probably it helps you feel more comfortable approaching somebody. But does that get you a happy, healthy, long-lasting relationship? No. And at least there's no evidence for that. It could even get in the way. It could prevent you. It could be that it works. It could be that it does nothing. Or it could be that it actually prevents you from getting what you want. We need science to figure that out. And nobody's testing it because it doesn't pass the sniff test.

56:18Dr. Max Butterfield:So why even bother testing something? Of course that's not going to work.

56:23Darin Olien:Soulmates. I know. But these are the one soulmates. I have my own point of view, and I can share it.

56:35Dr. Max Butterfield:So tell me, what do you think? Before I offend you by saying, but what do you think?

56:42Darin Olien:I at one point hook lion sinker yeah gotta be yeah if you kind of stay in that realm yeah of Esoteric yeah, I think there's a Godzillion timelines are going on in an impossible way that we can't grok yeah And even if our attempt to grok them this grand mystery of how I'm even across from you breathing on a miraculous planet it's fucking impossible. How did that happen? How did that happen? So you could argue like if I have some contract from a far off place, from a distant situation and we're supposed to meet, then we're supposed to meet.

57:27Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

57:30Darin Olien:I believe that people definitely show up in your life for a variety of reasons. I've had many relationships reveal certain things. I could say that's a soulmate. But that depends on the but that soulmate being that's the one I need to find in this lifetime and I don't believe that anymore. I believe a choice away changes the dynamic of the entire universe at any given second. Sure.

57:59Dr. Max Butterfield:Like so So...

58:03Darin Olien:But I also believe that there is a, and I'm going to use these terms, a fucking magical connection you can have with someone. Absolutely. I felt it. Like you're together, everything, you feel safe, you feel love that you haven't felt before, you want to do everything to provide for them, you want to spend all their time. And I'm not just saying in that acute three-month period. I'm saying that I've felt that. And that is transcendent. And I can't – I could try to throw words on it, and we maybe even use one and soulmate and all. I probably did at that time. Well, let me ask you. So did that feeling last?

58:51No.

58:52Dr. Max Butterfield:So what happened? You know, I mean, not to get into the specifics, but like –

58:56Darin Olien:I think, yeah, I think the lack of tools from both of our sides of dealing with pain that I think is a beautiful, and I'm saying that specifically, a beautiful part of this human existence. that for some probably reason we come in soulfully into a body, forget the fuck that that was true, and then we get our parents do the best they can, giving us some sort of roadmap to life. We become wickedly identified to our ego and this is who I am and we're teenagers and we're then finding. And then some weird thing comes back. Who am I really? So in that whole thing, you could make the argument I've had 10 soulmates that are absolutely perfectly designed to trigger something, reveal something, have a beautiful end.

1:00:09Darin Olien:And I'm going to be honest with you. I think that, I think number one, the more work you do on your inner world is one of the best things you can do full stop for life. Yeah. And that deep listening. So that for me is never stopping. So I also believe that the maturation, if there was steps to a greater level of Maslow's self -realization, that you can meet someone at a higher level and continue to aspire. and I'd love to see that vortices continue with someone who can amplify and develop the tools together and you're still going to trigger, you're still going to have real stuff, but then that supportive nature of like, how and where can we go from there?

1:01:11Darin Olien:You could call that a soulmate, but that's a throwaway thing. I think the real opportunity is like the safety that we build. to so yeah so it's not an easy question but at the same time i know the imprint could could could be better and better and better outside of a pain body that i may need yeah have needed or whatever yeah so that's why i asked the question because i think

1:01:53Dr. Max Butterfield:you know you identified a few different elements that some people are going to agree with just in the definition of soulmate and then other people might not because everybody has their own

1:02:03Darin Olien:definition of what do you mean you know it's like trying to describe love exactly yeah yeah and so

1:02:08Dr. Max Butterfield:you know my take is quite simple and it's that we don't find a soulmate we grow a soulmate and i think that really kind of echoes what you were saying as well i think you just nailed you know And it's like you can be with somebody who might not initially seem like a soulmate who after 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 50 years together, you couldn't imagine life without them. And what is that other than a soulmate? So, you know, we can't test scientifically whether the universe wants me to be with that person, obviously. But does it matter?

1:02:47Darin Olien:Yeah.

1:02:47Dr. Max Butterfield:You know, and so that to me, I'm not trying to hedge on that question. It's that is more of a spiritual philosophical question that is fine to ask that question and to wonder. But what we know is that deep relationships happen over time and not instantly. And so if you're looking for an instant soulmate, no, you know, that's not going to happen. Right.

1:03:12Darin Olien:And then you hedge your bet on all of the other things, like the chemistry and what kind of chemistry. It's almost fail-safe where you go, especially if you get, I've seen this happen, or someone, they've kind of outed themselves. Like, oh, my God, I had the, on Instagram or something, oh, my God, I had the greatest date, first date. Like, I think this is the one.

1:03:39Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

1:03:40Darin Olien:Good luck. Right. Right. And that's like the setup of a lifetime. And then you're like,

1:03:46Dr. Max Butterfield:well, and also because that often creates a mismatch because like you have this strong feeling toward that person. Oh, she's the one. And she's like, well, that was all right. Right. And so when you put that kind of pressure on a relationship, like if you tell that to her that like, I think you're the one it's over, even if she was potentially going to be the one, because that, that asymmetry is actually pretty normal. Men tend to fall first and women, they tend to investigate more. They want to check you out.

1:04:14Darin Olien:Is that true that we're looks first? It's more dominant? More so.

1:04:19Dr. Max Butterfield:Women, increasingly it has been shown that women are pretty into looks as well. But that being said, women, they do want the whole package more than men do.

1:04:30Darin Olien:What do women want? What does it show in the data? Well, so there's this really famous study that I love

1:04:36Dr. Max Butterfield:where they show men pictures of an attractive woman and in one condition, she's wearing like a McDonald's uniform and another like a business suit. And they say, how attractive is she? Scaled one to 10. Right. Equal. Because it's the same woman, you know. When they do that with women.

1:04:52Darin Olien:I know where this is going.

1:04:54Dr. Max Butterfield:The guy in the McDonald's uniform, not attractive at all. The CEO looking guy, same guy. Same guy. He's hot. So you tell me what women want, you know. And that doesn't, that's not to say women are shallow. It's to say we're all shallow. in our own way. And it's fair, but I mean, I think it's reasonable to acknowledge as well that there's a difference.

1:05:17Darin Olien:Do you think that that comes with the nesting side of women? They want to feel safe? That's the idea. Yeah.

1:05:24Dr. Max Butterfield:So those studies, studies like that come from typically from evolutionary psychologists who are looking at early human history and the conditions that we likely faced then and the idea was that women needed more protection than men they needed more provision because of the um asymmetry in society at that time like it was a dangerous time for women it's still dangerous for women at times but differently no than back then yeah so so let's

1:05:54Darin Olien:get into like the masculine because that's always that's always a masculine feminine like Like sensualness, sexuality. Like it's, I see it so confusing. Yeah. You know, like over dominant dudes. Yeah. Where like, I'm like, oh, they're projecting alpha.

1:06:20Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

1:06:20Darin Olien:I've been around a lot of fucking, from SEAL Team 6 guys to some of the greatest athletes in the world. Yeah. And it's a different thing. Yeah. They're not projecting anything. Right. It still happens. It still happens. We all have weird dynamics that trigger people. But for the most part. And then women also are in this confusing period too. Whereas like should I use my sexuality across the population? Or do I kind of stay a little conservative? And like it's a strange. I see, for me, I see sexuality as kind of this use of it. But the sensuality, I don't know if sensuality is the right word, but it's inside, and it's elegance, it's grace, it's absolute strong.

1:07:20Darin Olien:I love a strong feminine woman, but I don't need them flying around and flaunting it as well either. But that's just personal preference. But what are you seeing between this kind of masculine thing and this feminine thing, especially online?

1:07:46Dr. Max Butterfield:Well, and it's an interesting question because there's an argument among academics and then there are arguments among the non-academics as well. And so, yeah, a lot of arguments, you know. This is what people like to argue. But so in terms of the academics, you've got those evolutionary psychologists who I mentioned that would argue that there's a certain type of masculine man and there's a certain type of feminine woman that are going to be preferred generally by people. And then on the other side, you have more like people who, they don't have a specific name, but these are people who are, they study gender and from a psychological perspective.

1:08:23Dr. Max Butterfield:And they say, you know, this is cultural. We, if you look at people across time, what it means to be a feminine woman has changed to at least some degree. And what it means to be a masculine man has changed to some degree. So there's this argument about what even is masculinity? What even is femininity? How much of it is born and how much of it is raised? And to me, it makes sense that it would be in the middle somewhere, you know, that we would have tendencies for sure. but that like if I was raised in a family that really valued uh chopping wood of course I'm gonna like my dad loves chopping wood uh you know like of course I will see that as a masculine trait whereas if I'm raised in a family where the dad does all the cooking that's basically what I do in my own house my kids like to cook my boys they like to cook and so like does that make one more masculine than the other I think online people are gonna be like yeah cooking that's that's beta man what are you doing or whatever i don't know i don't even know the window you know um but truly though is there something that is masculine about one of those and not the other i

1:09:28Darin Olien:don't know maybe yeah does any of the studies show up where like because you know there is a polarity yeah and also it's impossible to you know you have like i just saw a video on like the prom king and the prom queen. Like, in our culture, there's always, like, this and the demonstration of here it is. Here's the match. And then we're running around. To your point, like, there's certain women and or men that you can look at and go, they're fucking good looking. Like, almost universally. Right. Which is probably why they get paid$20 million a movie and all of this other stuff. So, okay, most people believe that that's true.

1:10:11Darin Olien:but also like there's so much going on between each one of us what are we requiring and what do we what does some of the research show around um how important a woman embodies her own uniqueness and femininity and how a man is there any there's some really interesting research and

1:10:35Dr. Max Butterfield:And this is kind of a side answer to your question, but I think it's actually quite related. So there's some research showing that men and women misunderstand what men and women find attractive. So in other words, men think that women find super masculine buff guys to be attractive. When you actually ask women, which is what I would recommend, that is not the case. when you ask women what are your top hobbies among men like that you find attractive guys think it's going to be like lifting stuff that we like right you know women number one reading wow reading wow and so that's worth paying attention to and it goes for physical attractiveness as well so when you ask women what do you think men want and there have actually been these famous studies where they show like silhouettes of women ranging from very thin to very heavy.

1:11:32Dr. Max Butterfield:And women will, they lean on the thin side. They say, this is what men like. But when you actually ask men, it's a little over and it's, it's, it's not the same. And so that to me is the key rather than guessing or relying on our assumptions, which are often wrong, is to actually ask like somebody you're interested in, Hey, do you like me? Cause I like you. It's like fifth grade. You know, You send that no, circle one, yes or no. And that works, it turns out, when your goal is to find somebody who likes you back. And that's hard.

1:12:05Darin Olien:You really have to put yourself out there. Wow. So like in this situation, like, okay, you've asked them out to dinner.

1:12:12Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

1:12:13Darin Olien:And at the end, you go, so. How'd this go? How'd this go?

1:12:17Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah. That's really putting yourself out there. You know? I'd like to see you again. Yeah. Could we do this again? Now, there's going to be some pressure there. So suppose you do that. And she's like, sure. It's kind of hard to say no in that situation. So maybe you do get ghosted there. Because that's where people lack the emotional skills to say like, yeah, it's not going to work out.

1:12:38Darin Olien:Or maybe it's Minnesota nice.

1:12:40Dr. Max Butterfield:You wouldn't say that to somebody's face. No. But you might not show up. Or you might text them later and say, hey, you know, it was nice meeting you. Sometimes people need time to think, hey, it was nice meeting you. I'm going to go a different direction. But at least then you know. I wouldn't rush it. But at the same time, being open is really, it's a way to get the answer.

1:13:00Darin Olien:Yeah. Yeah, I've had situations where I knew, like, I met someone that were amazing people. But they also almost gave me an option. Yeah. Like, they optioned it. Yeah. Like, hey, this was great. And literally, it was like a multiple choice. It was easy. because we have a lot in common, so there's some business stuff that's here. Or do you see this from Anna? I'm like, no, I think there's business stuff. And those people are my friends to this day. What do you find? For me personally, I've gone through situations with some of the greatest women in my life. Even my ex-wife, Eliza, we're great friends.

1:13:47Darin Olien:We've had to transcend and heal a lot of stuff. but I have some amazing girlfriends. And sometimes that male, female, like you have a connection with someone and it's easy to project, oh, I'm supposed to be with this person, I'm supposed to marry this person. And sometimes it takes a little bit to really go, well, what is the real maturation of this connection that I'm feeling? Sometimes I don't know. but over time it reveals itself going oh this person's a my friend for for a lifetime literally um but we had to go through that moment where we both were like um you know where it doesn't happen with dudes you know he was like hey what's up but you have been working out with similar my buddies for 20 years where you're not having to where as opposed to female you're going they're attractive they're cool and like but it's not a romantic thing you know for me that's been very valuable but you go back to that thing of you have to be honest yeah and that other person has to also have the maturity of going into that honesty right and from there you're like oh that now that's healthy yeah because if there's a dynamic or they really want you and then but you're kind of not Like that gets a little wonky.

1:15:15Darin Olien:So I guess here's a roundabout way of a question. Like for people in a serious relationship and married, is it cool? Because you always have these buckets of like you can't have girlfriends if you're married. Like especially if they're straight and not together with anybody. Like, obviously, there's a zillion situations where that would have to be okay. But at the same time, respectful of your partner. Like, where does that all sit? Like, how does that work? If, is it, can it work?

1:15:53Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

1:15:54Darin Olien:With the opposite sex having friendship. but also you have the dynamic of the wife who's either triggered or has a serious, like, picks up on something. Like, you know, she likes you. So then you're, like, going, how do you bring that up?

1:16:10Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah, well, I mean, I think the question of can it work, yes. No question. I think there is a, I'm certain of it now that I've been on Instagram for a while, there is a strong pushback against the idea that it can work.

1:16:24Darin Olien:Really?

1:16:24Dr. Max Butterfield:Oh, people don't like that at all. There is a lot of jealousy out there. That's a scary thing, I think, for a lot of people. I think it's scarier for single people than it is for married people, especially married people who've been married for a long time. You trust your person, you know? Now, if you don't trust your person, okay, that's a separate issue. But if you trust each other, it's actually really common to have opposite sex. And healthy. And healthy. No, I'm glad you said that because it's very healthy in a marriage or in a steady romantic relationship to have outside people, male or female, who you can relate to.

1:17:02Dr. Max Butterfield:Most people don't cheat in a relationship. Most people, if they have a friend of the opposite sex, they don't cheat with them. That's just what the data shows. However, and this is where people get sort of they misperceive the data. if you're going to cheat, it is a higher likelihood that you would do so with a friend. Because you know that person, the opportunities there, the connections there. So that's not to say you'll cheat with a friend, but it's to say if you're going to cheat. Yeah, a friend is probably, I mean, that makes sense.

1:17:33Darin Olien:So that also then is a double whammy if your partner's insecure. Totally. And now you're going, okay, well, if you are, I got to now be okay with your friend that you believe is just a friend. Right. But now if we're getting an argument, now I feel weird. Like it's a.

1:17:52Dr. Max Butterfield:So I would also advocate strongly to develop that relationship with your partner to deal with that insecurity, to deal with that jealousy, and also to treat their insecurity seriously. Like to just wave that off and be like, no, you're worried for nothing. That's not going to be helpful.

1:18:11Darin Olien:In terms of like, let's talk a little bit about healthy relationships. because they do require skills. Oh, absolutely. And tools and self-reflection and coming to the table, honestly. And so how, especially in this day and age, what's kind of some, I know you have some great free books that you've written online, and that's like, great, so we'll put all those links so people can get these great kind of insights coming from the data.

1:18:44Darin Olien:In this kind of landscape today, what are some keys for people to keep their relationship healthy? Because, of course, you hear all these things, date nights and all of that stuff. And I'm sure some of those things are true. But what are some takeaways that people can go, hey, there's a lot of activity online. There's a lot. How do we build our relationship and keep it together? We have kids. There's a lot pulling at us all the time. What are some of the things that people can do to kind of build their own relationship?

1:19:22Dr. Max Butterfield:Well, let's start from the perspective of somebody who doesn't really have many skills to begin with. So kind of start from the foundation. Because it's a different advice, you know, to give to them than I might give to somebody who has a specific issue and has, you know, some skills otherwise. But spending time together, the date night thing. I don't think date nights are necessary, but spending time together is necessary. So if date nights are the way to do that, great. But how do you do it? Especially if you have young kids, that is very difficult. Especially if you're early in your career, you're working really hard.

1:19:54Dr. Max Butterfield:How do you carve it out? So I keep saying, it's not complicated, but it's hard sometimes. And so taking time, sitting down with your partner and saying, we need to spend more time together. Let's get it in the calendar.

1:20:08Darin Olien:Yeah, because it's routine that can... Routine is so important. Because it will pull us away, and we've got to step in consciously and go, we're just Groundhog Day every day. Right. We're just hanging on by the, you know, the kids need this, and da-da-da, and all this stuff.

1:20:23Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah.

1:20:24Darin Olien:But until we develop some healthy routines, then next thing you know, you blink by. It's gone. Yeah.

1:20:32Dr. Max Butterfield:Yeah. And that's, you know, Groundhog Day is really interesting, because if you look at, If you know that movie, Bill Murray, he's interested in, what's her name? The actress.

1:20:43Darin Olien:It's not Drew Barrymore, is it? No. No, that's 50 First Days.

1:20:47Dr. Max Butterfield:Anyway, he's interested in the woman, right? And so she is not giving him the time of day.

1:20:52Darin Olien:Right.

1:20:52Dr. Max Butterfield:And he spends all day, every day learning about her, getting to know her.

1:20:58Darin Olien:It's true.

1:20:59Dr. Max Butterfield:That's what you have to do. That's it. You know, and you have time. That's the nice thing is you do have this routine where it's like Groundhog Day. And so it's the little things that matter. So making time is important. Open communication is really important as well. If you don't talk about your needs, physical, emotional, mental,

1:21:20Darin Olien:how are they going to know?

1:21:22Dr. Max Butterfield:Your partner, you know, how would they possibly know? I think a lot of times we want them to guess because people who are immature in their relationships are like, well, he should know. No, you got to tell them, especially men. You know, I mean, because of the way that boys are raised, we don't pay attention to emotions, typically, to the same degree that women do. And so, yeah, that's something to overcome. That's not an excuse, but it's something to overcome.

1:21:51Darin Olien:Right. Yeah, it's a tool that we have to become aware of. For you now that you're an Instagram superstar, how is... It's been surreal, I got to tell you. How is the, like, how is that, I'm just curious, like, say as much as you want. How has that affected, has it affected your relationship? Because it's one thing about being a great professor in your, but then you've chosen to, number one, you are affecting more people in a good, grounded way. And kind of, has that, how has that affected your relationship?

1:22:31Dr. Max Butterfield:Well, fortunately, not at all. And both, you know, what I mean by that is Sarah and I, we've been married 23 years. We got married when we were 20, which I would not recommend to other people. The data show that the younger you are when you get married, the more likely you are to get divorced. Age is one of the best predictors of divorce because you just don't know yourself. Sarah and I got lucky. She could have been a crazy person. You know, we had known each other a year-ish. college when we got yeah so we met first day of college classic you know yeah we were in the same they put you in a small group you know to meet people you found your one yeah exactly right there we didn't start dating uh until the end of freshman year i see by the end of sophomore year we were married you know i mean it's like wow yeah and so to marry in college yeah i'm like wow so like i said we could she could have been a crazy person i could have been a crazy person But what we committed to from an early point in our relationship was growing up together rather than growing apart over time.

1:23:38Dr. Max Butterfield:And so, you know, she's been there every step of the way. And so she's loving this for me because she's seen how much it has energized me at this stage in my career. I'm having a lot of fun with it, you know.

1:23:54Darin Olien:It looks like it.

1:23:55Dr. Max Butterfield:I really am. It kind of irritates me when I have to work, you know, when I don't have time to film and to do this other stuff that I'm really enjoying.

1:24:04Darin Olien:Especially after you see another idiot. Right.

1:24:07Dr. Max Butterfield:It's unlimited, you know.

1:24:09Darin Olien:You have all the material you need for lifetimes.

1:24:12Dr. Max Butterfield:There's so much. But it's been surreal. I had to fly back home to Michigan this past weekend.

1:24:18Darin Olien:Michigan.

1:24:19Dr. Max Butterfield:Michigan. Yeah, yeah.

1:24:20Darin Olien:Minnesota. Yeah, so it's pretty close. Yeah, yeah.

1:24:24Dr. Max Butterfield:And a woman turned around on the flight. She said, are you famous? I said, apparently. You know, it's like that is not something that I set out to do and not something that I would have expected.

1:24:35Darin Olien:Right.

1:24:36Dr. Max Butterfield:That being said, I had my first day of classes yesterday at school. And I have a bunch of freshmen this year. I'm teaching general psychology, two sections. I said, how many people have seen my Instagram? Nobody. So maybe I'm not that famous. Right. You know, and so it's like it really in real life, it hasn't affected me all that much. some surreal experience like talking to you you're talking about your your ex eliza like i watched her on tv when i was in high school in scrubs for example that is surreal to me that i you know that there's this connection yeah so it's been it's been really fun yeah that's that's fun when i think you

1:25:11Darin Olien:know you know we had success with down to earth i'm filming another one age is so important because For me, it's like on the one hand, your ego is, of course, your ego is involved. Sure. But at this point in my life, if I can contribute to something, the reason I'm doing it, I'm super clear on. Right. And I don't need to tell anyone. Right. But it's for a much bigger purpose. And so that, to me, keeps that Minnesota like. Keeps you grounded. Keeps me completely there because it's fun. Right. It's like it's fun when you're walking somewhere and it says, hey. I know you. You're like, hey. Yeah. And then you're like, yeah, what's up?

1:25:51Darin Olien:Yeah. You're like, you know, and that's the contributor. And I think where we're from and later in life where we're not seeking it out of a lack. And you're like, well, I have something to share. People are resonating with it. Right.

1:26:07Dr. Max Butterfield:That's kind of fun. It's amazing. Yeah. You know, and that's, I went into psychology from an early age because I wanted to help people. And I didn't really know what that meant. I thought it was being a therapist early on. And I did a graduate degree in clinical psychology before I switched over into my main degree, which is experimental psychology. And I found out that I didn't like helping people as much as I thought I was going to, you know. But what I realized is that there are a lot of different ways to do that. And so this has been a way for me to, I wouldn't say like give back. That's the wrong term for me personally.

1:26:43Dr. Max Butterfield:But this has been a way for me to share what I've learned over the years and to share this expertise that was very personal to me for many years. And now it's like, I have a big, I don't have a microphone anymore. I have a megaphone. And that is such a wonderful opportunity. And I don't want to waste it. I want to make the most of it. Well, it's like the feeling that I would imagine musicians have.

1:27:10Darin Olien:Like if they're just making music and don't share it, there's a huge piece of that that is not being – we desire to share things, right? Right. And so when you can get to that place and to be able to share it and share your music in this instance, or uh then it's there there's something reciprocal about there's something extremely rewarding i don't know what the term is for it but but getting to do that i guess what's like as i what's your plan now is it just to continue to kind of do this are you starting to see other doors open that

1:27:52Dr. Max Butterfield:you're like oh that might be fun or i it's like i'm flying an airplane while i'm building it yeah and so i have ideas you know going forward like i i you know i told you i i was initially

1:28:03Darin Olien:writing a book yeah and where's that now well so so i write this proposal the literary agent i had

1:28:10Dr. Max Butterfield:said you know i don't like it but can you know do you have any other ideas i said sure so i you know had another idea we we went forward with that one sent it to a couple of publishers and one of them said i don't like it but can you write this other book so i said all right let me let me do a proposal for you. They liked the proposal a lot. And then they saw my Instagram and they said, oh, you don't seem like a serious scholar. So nevermind.

1:28:34Darin Olien:So it worked like in the context of the original, it worked against you.

1:28:42Dr. Max Butterfield:It worked totally against me. And so bizarre. That was a book about wise decision-making, oddly enough. And they said, we thought we were getting this wise professor and you're appealing to these younger people. It just doesn't, it doesn't seem like it would make sense. So I, you know, okay. I don't think they like money. I think that's the idea. Like, you know, they thought they were trying to sell to an older audience. At least, you know, that's what I'm telling myself. But it's, you know, that's how it is. Especially in academia, you get used to, you know, you submit a manuscript, it gets rejected.

1:29:15Dr. Max Butterfield:It's super, super common. So I'm always moving, always moving. And so my philosophy is to invest in people who invest in me. and I don't know what the next step is going to be. I do, I will continue writing. I think I kind of have to write a relationships book now and that would be pretty straightforward.

1:29:35Darin Olien:Ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah, pretty straightforward. Lay it out. And the great thing is you lay out that common sense based in what the science says. Exactly. And it's so distorting what's going on in the world and we just make up this stuff. and I love that you've taken this on and listen, it created... As soon as I saw you, I was like, this guy's genius.

1:30:02Dr. Max Butterfield:Well, you reached out early on, before I had really blown up.

1:30:06Darin Olien:It's true. I didn't even look because it didn't matter to me because then I was like at one point going, how the fuck you got a million followers?

1:30:15Dr. Max Butterfield:Like, oh my God.

1:30:17Darin Olien:And I'm like, it's not because you're just... you're just good thank you like you've just now just carved that and there's nobody else really

1:30:27Dr. Max Butterfield:doing this right now no uh you know some ahead of the curve there because you know i told you academics we we aren't normally on social media in this capacity yeah and a lot of times the academics who are they try to make social media play by their rules so i get dms all the time saying look you need to put sometimes from academics you need to put citations in your captions. You're not legitimate unless you do. And it's like, I'm playing a different game here. We're playing by Instagram's rules, not by the rules of traditional academic publishing. And that's how, unfortunately, that is how you succeed.

1:31:03Dr. Max Butterfield:And so there are some costs to that. And one of them is that, yeah, it's not an academic paper. But the sources are there. I always tell people, fact check me to your heart's content. This is true.

1:31:14Darin Olien:Yeah. Now use AI and you can find it in 30 seconds. So I don't need to, Because I do feel pressure, too, when I do solos and I dive into a certain—and I do.

1:31:25Dr. Max Butterfield:I have bibliographies that are just, like, massive. Totally.

1:31:28Darin Olien:Like, hey, you want to check it out? Like, it's not even my opinion. I'll tell you when it is my opinion.

1:31:32Dr. Max Butterfield:Right. Well, and that's the trouble, too, is so many times you can take a study and make it say whatever you want. You know, people don't have the skills to be able to evaluate the research. And so that's been my goal is to actually take all of the knowledge I have and distill it down into these simple points. because I know the literature. Like I've read the studies. And so I'm telling you all together, this is generally what they say.

1:31:56Darin Olien:See, that is something. I don't think, and that's where I think, I don't believe AI can do it. It's not there yet. Right, it's not there. And we have to be careful with that because we're already, I see certain people putting a godly quality on AI, and they're like, it's true. I've seen because I'm in the field of like botanicals and for the other part of my life and I blasted AI early on I was like the origin of cacao and how they used it and blah blah blah and it was wrong

1:32:29Dr. Max Butterfield:yeah

1:32:30Darin Olien:and I was like and that's I didn't even use AI for years yeah until it was like

1:32:34Dr. Max Butterfield:too much in our face but but yeah

1:32:37Darin Olien:it's interesting but I love what you're doing dude and thank you for coming up and yeah absolutely thanks for having me driving up been.