Maya Crowne & Price Latimer: Disrupting the Toxic Paint Industry with Alkemis

31:46And globally.

31:47Darin Olien:So it's just plastic, right? It's just paint, and you don't think about it, but it definitely has to go somewhere eventually. and it's and it's you know i think of climate change more of as a pollution issue and that's where the the the i i don't use that term anymore because it's it's lost in whatever gobbledygook people use it for in ways that is not that great sometimes for the messaging sure it's pollution that with its use uh in your room and your environment is is is toxic it's polluting your environment it's polluting you how it's created is polluting the planet yeah it's dangerous it's it's in the waterways it's in the ground it's in vertebrates it's in the air it's everywhere that's not a good thing and of course it causes changes to the degree at which who knows a ton of changes right in a way that we can't possibly truly understand except we see things like people way too young are suffering because of all of these different things and it takes guts like you all to like hey we're going to do this differently and in fact create something that's going to be life-giving yeah and enhancing rather than the imploded activity that seems to be going on all around us the going against nature creates implosion so it eventually is going to It has to kill in some form or fashion.

33:33Darin Olien:It has to hurt because it's against the laws of nature and the universe. And I don't even mean to sound esoteric, but it's true. It's true. Right? Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. And you can't unsee this stuff. And that's why, I mean, it's a huge honor and privilege for us to have been able to go down this research rabbit hole. And to, you know, and granted, like we do not know everything in this space, but we've become quite educated. And so we really feel like it's our duty to share this information with people. And just to layer in some of the thought that I have in connecting these dots together, because, again, it's not like there's like a book that says like, Pete does this to your health, you know, like, but I do like I listen to a lot of podcasts.

34:21I listen to doctors like because I care about my health and like phthalates. Right. I was listening to an Andrew Huberman podcast with a doctor about just endocrine disrupting chemicals in general. And she was talking about phthalates specifically. Dr.

34:36Darin Olien:Swan, probably. Yeah. Like specifically. And this is like something that she's been studying for a long time now. And how phthalates impact fertility and the lab tests that they've done specifically around that. and you know that like i mean if something is green seal approved not green wise not green guard certainly cradle to cradle but like anything that is not green seal approved very likely has phthalates in it from a paint perspective right and there's a reason why pregnant women cannot be around paint new freshly painted spaces because exposure to phthalates at particular times, like apparently it's not if you're always exposed to phthalates, but there are certain times in your development or certain times in your life cycle where they can really hurt you.

35:25And pregnancy like in vitro or, you know, is certainly one of those times. So pregnant women cannot be around phthalates because it will impact the health of the fetus for the rest of their life. And so there's a reason why pregnant women can't be around painted spaces is because a lot of painted spaces have phthalates in them and so i'm like if you can't be around it while you're pregnant why should you be around it shouldn't we not be doing it at all right

35:52Darin Olien:shouldn't that just be like a fundamental baseline right so it's a lot it's creating alarms for life right so so we used to think way back in the day that the placental border was impenetrable like the like you can do whatever you want you can smoke you can drink to my parents and stuff and Like, the baby's going to be fine. But, of course, that study by the EWG, Environmental Working Group, showed that over 200 chemicals almost in every baby being born today has got a wide variety of carcinogenic chemicals and phthalates being one of them. So we now know that, right? So that impact is not just an idea.

36:36Darin Olien:It's actually real. And so and phthalates are like, let's just so so if you are wearing petrochemicals, most clothing is you're wearing it. And then your your shampoos, your conditioners, your you're you know, you're being exposed. Women are being exposed to roughly around 120 chemicals every day. Most of them are phthalates and parabens and you name it. And then your exterior world, you're now painting in it. And so it's amazing that we're even surviving as good as we are. But this one is an interesting one because for me, it really does take on that idea that because we are inside so much more, and this is our second skin, the walls that we've created.

37:37Darin Olien:and it's supposed to be a healthy home, that somehow this has shown up to be, it's got to be prophets that have kind of led this march, right? And eventually the history of these things, to your point, before, we never used these before. And somewhere along the line, dollars became the god that we worship. and then it takes over and then decades later we're like um probably not yeah wait a second so how how do you then how do you then go about making the change like how how did that process start because if there's i would imagine there's very little competition in terms of what you're doing. I mean, there's levels to it.

38:30Darin Olien:Okay, low VOC, but you're still using all kinds of different chemicals. So how do you go about truly understanding what's non-toxic and what can you scale? And how is that process? It takes a long time. I mean, the thing is, is that there are other industries doing this. And, you know, what we're really lucky about is the fact that this is actually not a new thing it's an old thing um and so you know it sort of started off with this idea um you know price and i talked about it and we were like okay well the fashion industry is using a lot with like plant-based pigments like there's a history of plant-based pigments maybe we can use plant-based pigments for with paint um you're about to meet one of the guys that's been charging in it amazing using plant plants all the time he'll love this yeah Yeah.

39:23And I think that like, you know, I always like to say, too, that like, is our solution 100 % perfect? No. Should we all be living in like breathable mud huts? Like, yes. Like, you know, like, but the reality is, is we live in a modern world. We're going to have buildings. We like to live in nice homes. So like, how do we do better? Right. And so, like, when we were looking at plant based pigments, as an example, you know, we're lucky in a couple of ways in that we have a silent advisor that had worked at one of the largest paint companies as the VP of research and development for a very long time.

40:00And so he was able to give us a lot of help as it relates to pointing us in the right direction about how to do the research and development. We also hired a ton of feasibility experts to walk through like literally everything about paint. And, you know, one of the things about plant-based pigments as an example is they're not light fast. So it was really important if we were going to put out a new conceptual product project with a product which again is very old in nature was that it needed to meet and maybe exceed conventional paint performance perspectives because when you're talking to people who are actually applying paint like they need it to work you know like if it's a little bit more of a pain in the neck to apply if it's going to be like astronomically more expensive if it's going to fade if it's going to look weird like then you're just not on there's no way you're gonna get yeah people want because

40:54Darin Olien:you're going into what people want what they want they want a certain color they want a certain feel they want to they want all of that stuff yeah they'll blow off like i don't really want to think about all that other stuff i just want what i want and right now and we want i want what i want right now and i don't want it to be more difficult like i don't care you know like and so um so Eventually, though, when we evaluated all the different options, mineral paint seemed to make a lot of sense. Because Price and I knew from a lot of research that we had used to use mineral-based paints a very long time ago with these natural binders.

41:37Forever. From the dawn of time until now. These are the same pigments that we used in the Blombos Cave in South Africa. It's almost 100 ,000 years old. Same pigments in the Lascaux Caves. I mean, same pigments in Renaissance paintings, you know, old frescoes. So we know that these pigments and these materials last forever and can stand the test of time. And it's not such a foreign concept. Like people are familiar with like lime wash as an example as being a healthier type of finish. And so we basically like took this concept and worked with formulators that are experts in this field. Like there are other parts of the world where this type of technology is used more.

42:19And it's because if you work with natural buildings, like natural materials like stone, as an example, you cannot or you should absolutely not cover them with plastic paint because you will actually do damage to the substrate. The reason is that mineral based and lime based paints are breathable. And like this is getting really technical. But like so, again, this is not a new concept in the United States. However, though, we build a lot of homes, not with stone necessarily, unless you're doing like historical renovations, like, but we build them with drywall. And so what makes Alchemist Paint really unique is that it can go on to pre-existing drywall or pre-existing acrylic latex without the need of special primers or any type of, you know, unique additions.

43:04Like it's easy to apply for the U.S. market. And that was something that required, you know, a lot of R &D, but it took three and a half years. But it allows for a fully breathable paint surface, which is great in a lot of ways. And also minerals naturally absorb carbon dioxide. And we were able to test that recently. It was hard to figure out how. but I went to a summit series in Baja and I ended up at an event with somebody like a founders and funders event and the CEO of this company Thalo Labs was next to me and he was like I don't have any money so I'm not a funder and I'm like I don't have any money either I'm a founder not a funder and I was like what do you do and he's like I work in the passive home space and I sequester carbon with limestone and I was like yeah I was like how do you measure how much carbon you're sequestering he's like i created this incredible like this incredible technology and i was like well i have a mineral based paint like could i test how much carbon is sequestered in your machine and he's like absolutely and we were able to determine that one gallon of alchemist paint while it's curing will sequester as much carbon as nine trees in one day what so it will improve indoor air quality and this is a natural reaction of minerals and then from a performance perspective just to layer on a couple of other things that are really exciting but again mother nature is so durable right like talking about california and i know this is a personal thing for you darren it's like rock doesn't burn right our paint is class a certified fire resistant hello whereas like you know conventional paints like there have been really crazy studies about the impact to air quality like when synthetic materials burn you know and like we're living it

45:01Darin Olien:yeah exactly here talking walk down the street yeah talk about like you know the reason why you have such an impact of you know microplastics in the ocean i mean every single time that there's a natural disaster like where does all of that stuff go god dang i just that just blew my mind It's the sense that all of those homes that just got destroyed and all of the paint that was in it, which is all plastic. Yeah. And just the furniture. Yeah. It's just furniture. And it's just brutal. And that's, listen, if there's a new earth and we get to build it, we have to give it a go. We have to do this differently.

45:44Darin Olien:And we can't wait for anybody. Because we can't wait for governments. We can't wait for the supposed regulatory bodies. They're not doing anything. And we can't wait for the big boys. But we can make it available to people and create a movement. And then the movement attracts the people. When they see the trends, they'll catch on board later. So it's like using the PFAS example. My buddy created an alternative, knew he can scale it, knew it was going to be cost prohibitive and then it was actually marketable because you're like you're telling the truth and you're eliminating a toxin multiple yeah and in this case it's like you're eliminating the toxic exposure while you're living and then you're actually achieving and that's a beautiful i love the study about the sequestering and increasing air quality because that's with the laws of nature, right?

46:51Darin Olien:You don't have this negative drop-off where you're actually hurting nature and hurting yourself. But when you do the right thing, it's actually kind of pleomorphic. It has many other benefits beyond just the cost or the color or whatever it is. And that's the beauty. But then digging into it and seeing, like, the fact that you ran into this guy is extraordinary, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, I know. All of the synchronicities, right? And, I mean, back to, like, that's the beauty we think and we firmly believe in, like, when you are in concert with nature and, like, trying to do these things that are helpful and respectful to the earth.

47:36You know, amazing things happen. And it just feels, like, it feels so right.

47:41Darin Olien:Yeah. So if someone's listening to this going, oh my god, okay, I'm now sitting in a toxic soup. I'm starting to realize it. I'm knowing microplastics are around. Now I realize all my walls are microplastics and off-gassing for me, my pets, my children. What the hell do I do? Maybe I don't own the house. maybe I like what are some steps I can take to just like can I cover up the walls with new paint at least stop that part of it like what do I do if I maybe don't own the house what's some steps that you all would take yeah to kind of minimize some of this stuff well that's like that's the beauty of this product I think when we all go down this crazy rabbit hole of like the building biology and you get into all of the, you know, the tables and the chairs and the fabric and the upholstery and the window coverings.

48:37And then like, what are the walls built out? It feels really overwhelming and not everybody can, you know, do a full renovation, but paint is a really easy lift. You can do your four walls, you know, your ceiling. And that's one of our mission statements. We like to say that we can, you know, together we can raise the vibration of our home planet by starting with our most intimate space, our four walls. So this idea that making that shift, making those intentional decisions within your home, within your life, do really percolate out into the world. And that like each of those little things does make a big difference.

49:11And it's easy to paint your walls. And to your question about, so yes, encapsulating that existing latex acrylic is absolutely the best option. We're really proud to partner with the Parsons Healthy Materials Lab. If you don't know about them, if your listeners don't know about them, they are incredible. They're really at the forefront of innovative research around healthy building materials. They have an online research library where they have tons of options for healthier building materials as well as research and, you know, all sorts of information. So, yes, they, you know, all of their researchers and scientists say that encapsulating existing paint is the best option if you can't renovate.

49:57And then, you know, we have, it just, it goes on and on as far as other things you can do within your space. Air purifiers. Plants. Plants. Plants. All the plants. But I think, you know, making that shift and then just starting to think about, well, wouldn't I rather buy a wool rug? Wouldn't I rather buy an all-natural wood table? Wouldn't I rather sleep on a cotton mattress? One step at a time.

50:26Darin Olien:Yeah. And so let's talk about the minerals, the crystals, the colors, right? Because I'm currently fascinated, I have been for a long time, on light, on color, on all of that stuff. But also, before we jump into that, the minerals, the crystals you're using, I can imagine there might even be a, which is fine, a placebo effect of like, wow, my walls are full of crystals. but but but there's probably a sense perception that we can't even measure that is actual right in fact i i think i told you i have a one a guy that just kind of runs around does it himself he's got a he's he has a crystal paint like very high like pretty porous yeah and he's in and i i often go in this cloud room it's a hydrogen room so like it's a it's yeah it's a little and and all of the walls are non-toxic paint and he's not at scale like he's just kind of doing it yeah mad scientist and but it's like i put my hand on the wall and i can feel the crystals yeah like it's it's so cool and think about it this is in a kind of a clinical situation so you're trying to be healthy and they thought of that right so it's like well we all could do that so in terms of your you're putting this paint together and putting the minerals and putting the crystal what are the thoughts behind that what is what is is there any data around like what those paints are besides the co2 stuff well we're really really proud to be one of the only cradle to cradle certified paints in North America.

52:15And what's...

52:18Darin Olien:He's proud too. It's a little dog for everyone. We have a little growling. Danny's here in the podcast too. And so, you know, as it relates to the way that the paint is manufactured, the way the raw materials are extracted, I mean, all of our raw materials come from a 350 mile radius of the Italian Alps, essentially. And so, And the majority of the formula comes from minerals that make up the crust of the earth. So they're very plentiful in resource. They're certainly regenerative. And they're extracted and put together in a very thoughtful and sustainable way. And then the pigments that you're referring to, which are hematite, as an example, which is a red iron oxide, which is also crystalline and promotes third eye grounding, I mean, third eye opening and grounding inside of your space.

53:14The clear crystal quartz binder certainly has resonance to it. We've not tested it. Again, these are hard things to quantify. but what's very interesting is almost everybody that walks into a space that's painted with alchemists will notice that they're in a uniquely painted space they'll notice the quality and what i think that they generally are noticing is the paint essentially has this beautiful clear crystal quartz binder the way that we experience color really has to do with light reflective qualities and so the reason why people react to it I think is because you basically have these beautiful natural pigments that are enshrouded in a glass and the way that they reflect light is unique and it feels elevated and I do what's also interesting is people that have no idea about what our paint is made of they'll say that they feel more grounded inside of our spaces like totally anecdotally and i think this is because of that silent connection that we have with nature this concept of biophilic design like even though we are not always aware that we're responding to the frequency inside of our space like what surrounds us does give off a frequency um you know and so we tend to um talk more about that with people who are interested and sensitive to those types of things but even people who are not like they notice something different about being surrounded in alchemist paint and i just think it's because of our human nature you know attraction towards things that are natural and you know biophilic there's been like this whole movement towards biophilic design and bringing the outdoors in exactly yeah and that's you know as soon as i

55:08Darin Olien:saw these and thank you for sending me these because as soon as i saw them i'm like oh those are my colors you know i mean meaning meaning that i always lean towards natural colors i just i just have almost always done that and so kind of bright shocking synthetic colors i i just i naturally don't resonate with it but all of these you can you can kind of feel that they're just like they're like the palette of earth yeah exactly absolutely and we don't use chemical colorants like the majority of you know these are incredible yeah and again all you know all we 10 natural pigments like the same ones we've been using forever and ever and ever so yeah that's it we get all of these colors from 10 natural pigments oh my god yeah yeah i mean this is this is a shocking like i'm just i'm still kind of reeling from the microplastics thing it's like it's a lot to take that's unbelievable like because i'm constantly finding stuff like this but i i completely didn't it takes an expert like it takes diving into these things you know i spent two and a half years in this damn book and diving into it how many swear words would come out of my mouth privately as I'm writing this stuff going oh my god and this is just another layer like paint contributing to the largest microplastics in our environment and then not to mention the the contact that we are having with it every day all day sleeping in it raising children raising our pets like stop like we really need to stop yeah and that's that's our whole thing like we just want to present a better option we really felt like there was an opportunity in the market and um you know so that's how we brought this product to to life and we like to say that we you know this is our paint baby together yeah and so prices and stuff like that is it fairly it's a little more expensive and rightly so it's not a synthetic form of chemical toxicity so how are you how how is this being received in the marketplace it's funny and i i always say i love this question because you know okay so you probably need three gallons of paint max to paint your room.

57:50You don't need primer with this paint. This paint has 40 % more solids than conventional paint because it's made out of minerals. The coverage is amazing. We're talking to all different people in the chain of command of paint because it's usually, I mean, depending on who you are, not everyone is always applying their own paint. A lot of times it's contractors. And we just did our first certification program with a bunch of fine finishers in Hudson Valley in New York and they were blown away by the fact that for some of these darker colors they needed two coats like the coverage without a primer they were like if I do this dark red color in other conventional paints I need six coats I've never ever been able to do this with two coats and so so needing less needing less exactly yeah buying better and buying less and that's like a fundamental point yeah this paint will last we guarantee it for 20 plus years but we'll guarantee it for 20 years which is two to three times as long as conventional paints so it lasts longer you need less of it not to mention there's a litany of benefits and if you dollar cost average your health over the course of 20 years you're spending we charge 120 a gallon right now retail pricing you need to call it 360 bucks over 20 years for your bedroom i really don't think that that is that expensive in the wildly consumeristic world that we live in like you know you'd spend

59:20Darin Olien:that on amazon in a month exactly well and then when you understand it you're like especially i just keep thinking of like you know that proverbial getting the room ready for a newborn yeah right and they're like oh it's gonna be this color and that and then like oh my god it's full of toxic craziness and they're like oh 360 bucks to to paint your beautiful new room for your new child with life-giving color and uh kind of symbiotic paint it's a no-brainer right i think so well i mean yeah i mean listen it's just it's just people just don't know and that's part of why we're having this conversation and instead of just complaining about it like most people do you guys went to work and did a lot of hard work to to materialize this into the world and i and i'm so grateful and thank you for giving me i can't wait to play around with this yeah i think you'll Love that color too.

1:00:29But just to clarify, you know, a lot of experts know about this. Like we're talking about the Parsons School of Design. We're talking about LEED. We're talking about the Living Building Challenge. We're talking about every major builder and contractor and developer. Like it's not every building, but they're aware of these facts. And there are people that have been in this industry for such a long time that have been pushing this narrative that know how much waste comes out of building in general that knows about the impact to our environment even maybe more so than you know our direct health but you know they're implored because of the massive amount of waste that occurs as a function of our building environments in general and so you know don't take our word for it like just do a little bit of research, you know, like these things are, you know, we're really proud to be able to share this message with people.

1:01:28But we have found so much community of experts and scientists. And, you know, like Harvard has a healthy building program now, like, you know, Parsons, obviously, we're so proud to be a part of cradle to cradle, you know, lead well, you know, all of these building standards, United Nations Sustainability Development Goals. Like our products are contributory to all of those standards.

1:01:54Darin Olien:Yeah, so I mean, you know, you do the right thing. And especially with people even in legacy, to your point, they know this wasn't the right choice. But they've been doing it because there's no options. But when there's an option, they start coming together and start supporting this thing. And that's the beautiful thing about doing the right thing. And it's also the beautiful thing about clicking on the common sense and the heart of people and going, yeah, I want to be a part of a solution here. And the scientists, right, they get in their own eco chamber as well. And to be able to contribute to things that are life-giving, it's what else?

1:02:36Darin Olien:Why would we do anything else? I'm so grateful for this time and for blowing my mind on a few of those stats and then let's let's paint the paint the world a better place huh thank you so much Darren such a pleasure thank you so much