Thais Gibson: The Hidden Programming Running Your Life and Relationships

34:20And I knew he was there, but I felt such intense emotion about it. And I was able to, as somebody who was doing the witnessing work and the rewiring work, go, whoa, I'm having a disproportionate reaction to the fact that he didn't come to bed. What's going on? And you can do this thing to sort of source earlier memories. And I said, okay, what does this feel like in my body? It feels like abandonment and betrayal. And I said, okay, what's my earliest memory of this? And oftentimes when you do that, you'll have these things that kind of come up. It's a way of sourcing things from your subconscious mind.

34:50And I remembered as a child, had never thought about this as an adult. I was terrified of the dark as a kid, terrified. I watched too many horror movies at a young age and I was so scared. And I remember what my parents would do because I was so scared to sleep alone is they would put me to bed when I was like, you know, four or five, six years old. They'd sleep with me in the bed until I fell asleep. And then they would get up and leave. And I would wake up every night knowing that they left and feeling so scared and feeling frozen like I couldn't move and this isn't even like a big traumatic thing but of course the way I stored it as a child was with a lot of intense emotion I felt really scared and I felt betrayed because they would always say don't worry we're gonna sleep with you tonight we're gonna sleep with you right it wasn't true and it wasn't true exactly and so so I'm watching myself have this like I'm like seven out of ten frustrated that my husband's not in bed and I'm thinking like what he said he was going to bed and I'm like why am I upset like he's working and I'm going ah what's my early memory this came to mind and then I asked myself okay what did I need as a child that I couldn't get that I can now because it's a way of helping it come full circle in those moments and I was like I needed to tell myself I was fine that I'm safe that I'm okay and then get up and go ask for a hug and so I got up and I went to my husband he probably thought like what's going on and I was like hey a lot going on I need a hug and I worked through this thing in my mind and then felt so regulated both within myself and just asking for that hug but that's a good example of how arrested development shows that when we have disproportionate reactions that consciously we can evaluate and say this doesn't make sense and then we can actually work through it and it's a

36:23Darin Olien:way of working through that dynamic we've stored well the trick the space that you had that is probably different than other people is that you you had that willingness to ask a question within that space oftentimes people are so close to it yeah right that they're just this is automatic response and they don't have that space yet and sometimes it takes a little time to investigate that because gosh if everyone did that that's self-responsibility that's self-regulation that's and then you come to because clearly that could have been you could have went richter scale on on him and he'd be like what the hell's going on right yeah and then and then you know the race is on you know so so it's it's it's again it's like I don't know about you but you know there's so many people that I mean I have a good circle of friends and people that are doing work and and digging into things and that's great it's like god dang kind of go back to that original story There's so many people just, you just watch the show and you're going, wow, how is any of this going to work out well when people are just throwing their stuff at each other constantly?

37:41Darin Olien:And look, not that we're going to open up this can of worms, but you look at the political I was thinking the same thing. The political divide. It's exactly the same way. Unregulated, unregulated, unregulated. If you would just do this, I would be good. If I would just do this, it's ridiculous. 100 and it's such a show and it's such a you know it's a it's a macrocosm of the microcosm that's going on within all of us but then it's it's it's outwardly uh weirdly accepted that we're just vomiting all of this stuff over it and it's just over and over and over and over and over again i know it's crazy i really agree with you it's so funny during a lot of this stuff going on in the world sometimes i was like you know i have a platform and should i speak or what should i do and i kind of struggled with it and then looked at things and was like it's so interesting because when i look at like i'm a big person who cares about contribution that's always been a high need for me i care about doing something to be supportive of human beings that's just you know and so when a lot of the stuff started kind of going crazy i was thinking like what do i do to be a part of a solution instead of the problem and i realized like oh the work that I'm doing.

38:54Exactly what you're doing. Totally. And thinking like, Hey, a lot of these people in the world that we see playing out on the world stage, they have a lot of their own attachment stuff and ego and pride and things that are coming to light. And maybe strings are being pulled from people behind them. Who knows? But, but I'm sure there's, you know, if children grew up in the first place with a lot more, like you said, space, we definitely, I definitely spent a lot of time training people in our programs to learn, to witness their emotions instead of attached to them. It's called somatic processing.

39:23I'm sure you're familiar. And it gives us space to then notice when things come up. And we can train ourselves to actually get quite good at that. And I'm sure you've done a lot of that work yourself. But space allows you to not go to those deep subconscious or unconscious impulses. And then when you can actually consciously evaluate because you've created that space, well, now we can rewire or we can come full circle. We can close the loop on something. And so now we actually have a lot more empowerment to to take responsibility and to show up in a different way and not just say oh i'm the victim of my childhood and now i'm going to play these patterns out and they're justified because unfortunately it's definitely not your fault that they happen but only you can be the one to change

40:02Darin Olien:them it's your responsibility no matter what right it's now your responsibility exactly right yeah it's not your fault that happened but it's now your responsibility you're an adult deal with it be an adult be an adult but yeah it's it's it's so if everyone you know if everyone literally started doing this work the the the pillars of of polarity would just fall fall apart almost instantaneously yeah I really agree with that I'm a big believer in that and I think sometimes I see things and I'm sure you're on the same page where you see things playing out in the world and you're thinking like geez if these people have a little better coping mechanisms or emotional regulation like yeah we might be in a different situation but yeah then certain people have more power and so those those unregulated choices have massive consequences for a lot of other people so yeah it's a it's it's crazy but but i think again the world the world that we can do so much for is ourselves.

41:08Darin Olien:And again, if everyone, again, just emphasizing this 90, 95 plus percent of our lives are being run by shit, you don't know. Yeah. Right? Exactly. Like, let's, so like, let's just sit with that for a second and go, okay, if you had a car and you put your child in the car and uh i'm trying to come up with an analogy uh and and the card only five percent of the car worked yeah and you're gonna send your child out to go to school in that car and and there's a high likelihood that it's gonna go off the road and not work and and then what's that consequence yeah would you do that yeah it's a really good point it's a good analogy yeah so we are a car we're running around we're making choices yeah we're we're fighting with people not fighting avoiding people like all because of these things that we're unaware of unless we step in and go okay there is a matrix going on here that I am that I am willing now to look at where do I start how do I do it and again kind of plugging your systems I think it's a really you know aside I see see your work and it's like okay it's like the I'm putting my interpretation on this I understand but I just was in a conversation about last night with some really good friends psychedelically uh we weren't psychedelic I'm not saying we're in psychedelic but they went through a psychedelic experience and i had 25 years ago um and and convinced it's it's there is an opportunity yeah for space yeah yeah it is not can it heal nervous system i'd love your feedback on that i i think possibly and it can also create some harm uh from a uh a psychedelic perspective i think there can there can be all of it i i don't think that it creates a roadmap for the real work that needs to happen yeah so i'll be honest i so i've never had a psychedelic psychedelic experience with anything like in that way like i well in my adult years since being an adult and um and so i i'm a little bit like it's definitely not my area of expertise but i know a little bit about it am i pro it i'm definitely super open-minded to that and from what i understand i think a lot of what happens is we sort of bypass the default mode network in our brain so we can actually sink further into our subconscious unconscious programs get that out of the way yeah which then gives us more awareness into the deeper aspects of self so i think that's highly beneficial from that perspective and then i think it's what we do after that matters so when we look at um hypnosis for example yeah people do a hypnosis session yeah and what i actually ended up moving towards was i always felt like being in the hypnosis space it was like give the man a fish rather than teach a man to fish and i also thought it was strange parts of it were just like didn't quite land with me 100 over time about the experience and one of the first things that you you do is when somebody goes through this profound experience in a hypnosis session is they have to follow their findings up or their learnings or their breakthrough up with something called post-hypnotic suggestion which is 21 days of let's say you realize you weren't trapped you were free and you had freedom at the periphery that you didn't see was there at the time then you have to for 21 days notice where you are free and honor the freedom and and so you have to actually like it's even though you have this profound breakthrough oftentimes if something's highly emotional it can imprint the subconscious mind more immediately but we usually have to fire and wire neural networks over time with consistency for them to really stick and so that's sort of what i would say with the the psychedelic experience which is people i've heard of tons of people who I have lots of good friends who do this regularly or in terms of ayahuasca or things like that.

45:27And I think it's a double edged sword to your point where too much.

45:30Darin Olien:Yeah. Yeah. And or that they go off every so often to have this experience at the exclusion of doing the inner work on a daily basis in their life. And so then there's we're not taking full radical accountability in a sense. But I think that ultimately when you have these big awarenesses or breakthroughs, what you do after really matters the integration process after the fact is what will make it night or day in terms of the long-term impact on your life yeah and i i think that there's no real avoidance to the work yes there's an attempt but there's a real attempt you know and i think addiction stuff i think i think i think you can get addicted to the experience because it's a hell of a show yeah it's a hell of a show and and you know you know be so bold to say you know you're scratching at god there like you're you're really going whoa okay reality is different than i thought and like that can be seductive in a way like and then and then it becomes the the conversation rather than the work and that's where you know again my first time was in 1999 and the the what i see now is dangerous i i think and not i mean that might be a very strong obviously there's pockets of people that when doing it well the the outro like what you're doing after yeah uh there's one group i know that they have a counselor with it's all doctors and all of a thing and i'm not going to name the i know i know what you're talking about yeah so and then and so administered and and and well done well done taken care of and then you have a coach like you're you're committed before you've been doing that you're committed to doing i love that yeah right so so at least it's it's it's going in the right direction in that way but again like you know i the door is open for me i i opened the door like a long time ago i i get it yeah and i'm still like again like i'm humbled i'm hum like certainly i'll go back a little bit and like this past 2025 through my body through injuries that weren't healing and stuff i it finally dawned on me to go where have i felt this feeling yeah right and i uh and i went right back to the being born i was i've told this story so i don't mean to always bring it up but it's it's relevant it's obviously profound for you yeah so i was born premature yep and uh i was three and a half pounds yeah and and uh in a psychology program that I finished in 2002 through a process we recapitulated my birth and I didn't know it's two stories here that was the first time we went through this closed-eyed process of being of of if do you have an experience of being born and so I didn't go into it with anything this was 20 years ago and uh and the kind of my eyes were shut and my counselor was talking me through it and next thing you know she saw something on my face and go what's happening and i said i think i'm being born right now and then she saw something else on my face and she goes what do you need and so i'm i'm coming out and i'm like i need my mom yeah and i wasn't given my mom right so as soon as i finished that sentence i had an explosion like literally energy shot up my spine i couldn't have stopped it if i wanted and i exploded crying that was the first time but it wasn't done this year 20 some years ago the pain in my back opened something up i go where have i felt this feeling vulnerable scared terrorized like shocked like like so that was and then shoved into a box shoved into an incubator for the first three weeks of my life right and uh so i didn't get my mom I got a box and then cut to finally was able to come home.

49:52Darin Olien:I almost died. Came home. I was five pounds. My dad was a full-on alcoholic at the time. So he was out to who knows. And so mom was like holding down the fort with an older brother. So that was 2025. Like I was going back to that place over and over and over again regularly and then kind of end of last year into this year, I was now sitting in as an older child from being born into what that was like growing up into chaos. Interesting. And so that's what from the relationship stuff and seeing a little avoidant thing because I was like, holy shit. You might be more fearful avoidant than dismissive avoidant.

50:37Darin Olien:Yeah. So everything's on a continuum. And I'll go back and actually mention what fearful avoidant is in more detail because I didn't go into it. But you get your deepest conditioning between the ages of zero to three and then three to eight. Just in terms of the types of brainwaves that our brain is producing, how suggestible we are, how deeply we're soaking up information.

51:02And usually you have sort of an overarching theme. and it would strike me that birth trauma like that where you're you need your mom of course a child's like yearning for that attachment and connection and now you're put into this this incubator and that would create a lot of deeply avoidant trauma right because there's this total lack of attunement and connection at your deepest most formative experiences so that would kind of put you right there on the perspective of okay that would very likely create dismissible avoid an attachment patterns however conditioning is always happening you know we don't just only get conditioned in childhood i mean you see if you've been in a long relationship before you've seen that over the years you take on characteristics of that person and vice versa you know or you constantly regulate exactly or you hear you're the sum of the five people you spend the most time around whatever you're exposed to through repetition and emotion over time is actually building new neural networks in our brains so we can use that to our advantage or we can be on autopilot and not recognize that and that goes on a certain path.

52:01But then what often creates fearful avoidant attachment styles is absolute chaos. So usually what we'll see is fearful avoidant is the attachment style most known with growing up around big T trauma. So, you know, and I literally give examples when I'm explaining this to people about having a parent who's an alcoholic. That would be a very, very clear cut example. And what's interesting is when you see a fearful avoidant, they get different associations about the same thing. So for example, if fearful avoidants grow up where there is a parent who's an alcoholic, they probably have some nice moments with that parent, or maybe the parents had a couple drinks and they're in a good mood and they're kind of loving.

52:39And then they have these really scary, unpredictable moments where that person's drank way too much and they're passed out on the floor and you don't know if they're alive or they're now angry drunk and they're mean and cruel. And so you get these really confusing associations like anxious attachment cells are like love is good let me get more of it dismissive avoidance are like i can't trust love i always just want space fearful avoidance are like i can't tell which one i want right because i see love as a good thing and a scary thing right and other examples would be if you had a parent in any kind of active addiction or a parent with a personality disorder like you look at like a narcissist as a parent they love mom one day they're terrible the next day to the child and it's like you just don't know what you're going to get so while anxious attachment cells are always trying to get more closeness dismissive avoidance are always trying to get more distance fearful avoidance become hyper vigilant they are like i need to predict everybody and their behaviors and so they become extremely good at reading micro expressions body language tone of voice changes in patterns they like clock it so quickly i joke that fearful avoidance are like the human lie detectors like they and i'm a scorpio too so i'm just like me too oh really yeah so and i was fearful avoidant and um and so when you have these kind of chaotic experiences growing up then you always you learn to be a few steps ahead and what's interesting is then fearful avoidants kind of have a little bit of the anxious side because they want that love they don't want to lose it so they can have these moments of like what if i'm abandoned what if somebody pulls away from me or i'm not good enough or or unworthy and they often cope with that by overcompensating a lot.

54:10So always trying to over deliver, overachieve just to feel acceptable at all. Um, and the idea of normal is like, Oh, I couldn't be normal. Cause how would anybody love me? Like I could, I'm disposable. There's kind of this deep unworthiness wound in there. And then because often fearful of winds crop having to earn love as well by caretaking or fate, you know? Um, and then the flip side is that love is also a scary thing. So then on the flip side, it's like, well, if you get too close, I could be trapped or helpless or powerless or one of their biggest core wounds that we discovered is the fear of betrayal so and it's not always like that the person will betray you because sometimes you can think oh that person's pretty trustworthy but it's like but i can't trust the future how do i know something won't change in five years or ten years or you know and and kind of this constant walking on eggshells so fearful avoidance have this anxious side and this avoidance side and so they often end up in dynamics where they're like oh come get close to me come get close and somebody gets close and like get back you're too close and they pinball a little bit back and forth um so what's interesting about your situation is um you had what would be very characteristic for a dismissive avoidant at an early age but then it sounds like a lot of your childhood conditioning was then more leaning you towards fearful avoidance i wouldn't be surprised if you were sort of somewhere in the middle there and i'm just curious if you feel comfortable not to put

55:25Darin Olien:you on the spot but what uh resonated with you more yeah yeah i think it was for for sure that's how i first came in and then and then you know dad got you know from zero to four he was alcoholic yeah so early all of that stuff and mom was kind of emotionally shut down and they were just destructive to each other and then my dad got sober but it wasn't really much of a shift because he was so goddamn angry yeah yeah i didn't deal with anything then but then later in life like him and i have very similar views of the world and like he became a really good friend and you know later but you know uh so yeah i do i do see i do see uh that kind of pinball yeah like i can come in hot yeah yeah that's very true that's what i want and then oh oh oh oh let's start to whoa whoa whoa whoa settle down yeah 100 that's that's very textbook and and there's this sense too of like because you want love and love is a good thing and that closest is good but one of the deepest things that keeps it alive so there's some really interesting other patterns you know we talked about it was not just core wounds but it's your deepest unmet needs and it's your nervous system well obviously your nervous system is often on high alert because you grew up having to deal with high alert experiences but beyond that too what's so interesting is that um you would have grown up in an environment similar to how i grew up too which is that there was too much chaos going around for your needs to be seen or understood so at a very young age we learned okay well my needs don't really matter i don't really i can't i'm never gonna get my needs from other yeah but usually you were the caretaker somewhere so you either kind of stepped in or you looked out or at least you took on the emotional experience maybe of mom or worrying about mom or something like that and so usually there ends up being this dynamic of well i'm gonna over provide and over deliver for everyone else right but i struggle to receive because i don't know how to communicate my needs take care of my family bought my mom a house like you know very fearful avoidant of you exactly and they always call me even when they are this close to each other they don't talk and so i kind of now manage the dynamics manage the dynamics very fearful avoidance and fearful avoidance there's superpowers to that fearful avoidance are exceptional under pressure you have a problem go to a fearful avoidant if you have a problem and they're gonna know how to solve for it fix it be there for you validate you fearful avoidance are also very deep people they're not superficial they're like we don't like the surface of life.

58:03But then there's a dynamic too. And listen, I say fearful avoidant, you probably did a lot of work already. So you're probably mostly secure, but those would be your roots or your backstory that would still form the parts of your personality. And so they don't like small talk or surface conversation. They like the depths of life and experiences. And then you'll have this individual who can pour into other people and be very attuned to what other people need and notice it. But then you struggle to actually take up space. So fearful avoidance and part of what keeps the pinballing alive is not just the core wounds that can be rewired but also the fact that i bet if you tracked your relationship history you probably have a series of you pour into others at the beginning but then you don't realize that like you have needs too and you have to communicate about them right so then you get a little burnt out by the relationship and you feel like tapped yeah my marriage was like that so it's like yeah

58:56Darin Olien:try to fix and try to do all this stuff and next thing i know i was literally like i'm exhausted I have nothing left. Exactly. And so, and fearful of ones often until they do some of the inner work, also choose people like that. You know, I definitely had a big history before my husband, cause I thank goodness did a lot of work before my husband. But, um, I had a lot of history of going like, I, I, oh, you're wounded. Come to me. I like the wounded ones. Like I'll take care of you. Yeah. And so you end up, but then you burn yourself out and then you feel frustrated a little bit and resentful. like I'm trying so hard and then I'm not getting anything back, but you don't realize it's because you don't have boundaries and you're not communicating your own needs and you're choosing people like that.

59:38And that's the radical self-responsibility part of it where you're like, wait, I have a part in this too. And then by rewiring the wounds, learning to meet your own needs and then learning to advocate for them and regulating your nervous system, what you're attracted to at a subconscious level shifts and changes. Yeah.

59:53Darin Olien:So, uh, the, the book that you're writing, cause I love, I love your approach because your approach is you can heal this stuff a hundred percent it's not just this is what you are this is who you are no we can change it we can become aware of it and and we can flip this and not be again a victim to it so so um is is yeah talk to me about the book because i want to give people some hope here because you know it is a lot yeah to start to dig into this because it's you know again radical responsibility for like what's going on in my life and how am i how how am i contributing to this in ways that i'm not even aware of yet yeah 100 so the book is called the new attachment theory and it's all about like how you actually rewire and to your point one of the things because attachment theory sort of started to trend over the past few years but something that drove me a little nuts if i'm being quite honest is that everybody was like well i'm just anxious and that's why i do these things right i'm just fearful wouldn't that's why i'm this way it became a label and an identity instead of like hey this is just letting me know deeper patterns so i can rewire them which should be the entire point of even caring to know and so um so we go through major pillars in the book we have programs to do this in 90 days with people online and the whole theme is the first thing you do is you have to rewire your wounds so these ideas that let's just take a really simple one let's say and i'll share a just introductory tool there's a lot of different tools but a really easy one is we may have an idea that let's say i'm not good enough okay a really common one for lots of different attachment styles and so that idea exists at the subconscious or even unconscious level of mind that is not nobody's consciously choosing to wake up and say i'm gonna tell me i'm not good enough yeah let me choose to feel that way today.

1:01:47Right. And so what happens is you wake, you go through life and we see like the bear in the woods. We see through that lens. We project that out onto things because it's part of what we were conditioned with. And so we want to change that. We don't want to keep living through that because when you feel not good enough, what do you do? Maybe you're defensive or you push people away, or maybe you try too hard or you cling or, you know, all kinds of things depending on how you learn to adapt. So now we want to change it. So first step is you find the wound and it's opposite. I'm not good enough. I am good enough.

1:02:13Step two is I do not believe in affirmations. Okay. So contrary to what a lot of people love, I'm sorry. Why? Because affirmations are of the conscious mind. Your conscious mind speaks in language. Your subconscious does not even hear language. If I say whatever you do, do not think of a chocolate chip cookie. Right? Too late. And so you flash an image, even though your conscious mind heard do not, your subconscious flashed out an image already. And so we have to speak to our subconscious mind because that's where the wound is. So we can't just say, I'm good enough. I'm good enough. I'm good enough we need to speak in emotions and imagery that's the language of the subconscious mind so how do we do that well every memory ever is a container of emotions and images so if i were to say okay tell me your favorite childhood memory and i don't know if you grew

1:02:57Darin Olien:up in malibu but maybe you're playing at the beach in malibu minnesota okay so not that but in theory if you're like shoveling snow in minnesota no not my favorite there so so if you're playing at the beach as an example you might see the images of the waves and the sand and maybe your red sand bucket as you're making a sand castle and we've all seen people when they recount old memories they smile or they laugh because that memory is a container of emotions so now we can actually use our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind where the problem is we can say i am good enough but now we need 10 memories of times we actually did feel good enough so that we're soliciting emotions and images.

1:03:39And we want to feel the emotions in our body as much as we can.

1:03:41Darin Olien:So you can use past good emotions to pull that in. Exactly. And so they have to be things that are real. We can't say, oh, I could have felt good enough. We have to actually feel good enough. They don't have to be really strong memories. They don't have to be like, you got this crazy award for something. It can be like, I had a hard conversation two weeks ago that I was nervous about and I feel good enough about doing that, right? It can be these little emotions. But emotion, imagery, and repetition are what fire and wire neural networks in our brain. So here's what we do. I am not good enough.

1:04:10I am good enough. Step one. Step two, 10 memories for repetition of times I did feel good enough. Step three, we now record ourselves saying them out loud. And we listen back.

1:04:21Darin Olien:Saying what out loud? The memories. The memories. Yeah. Like recounting them. Oh, wow. Nice. Yeah. And then we listen back for at least 21 days. 21 days is the length of time it takes. if we are in a suggestible state to fire and wire neural networks that are strong enough that they're likely to stick. So a suggestible state means when your brain is producing more alpha or theta brain waves. And so your subconscious mind soaks up information better. So that's usually after a meditation, the first hour that you wake up, the last hour you go to sleep, after breath work, after a psychedelic experience.

1:04:52So what we do is it takes two to five minutes a day. And if you want to overcome this wound that like we know our attachment wounds have been plaguing us, Like the fear of abandonment ruins like people's relationships consistently or the fear of always being trapped or betrayed. These like destruct our lives. All you have to do is go through these three steps, listen back for 21 days, really visualize and feel about the things you've noted down or said out loud that you're listening back to. And that starts to really reshape these neural networks in your brain over time. So that's one example of how we can start doing that work.

1:05:24And I'll go into another, maybe one more tool in a second that's important. um i don't know if you want to say anything before i go into the other one no no no so

1:05:30Darin Olien:yeah so just recapit uh replaying that back how many how many uh memories do we grab onto and record 10 okay just so we get enough repetition yeah and you can change them throughout their 21 days if you're kind of bored of listening to them you can find some more things like that but especially for for fearful avoidance more have like novelty a little bit more so sometimes they're good to do like every seven days switch up 10 new memories things like that but ultimately that's what we're getting into our subconscious mind our body etc yeah and then the second one is um this is so cheesy but it's so true healing happens when we become our own parents so it's not just about rewiring what was imprinted upon you it's about traumas also things that happened that or that didn't happen that should have that we needed to happen and so what we can do here is we can look at, I always get people to sit down and write mom and dad and draw a line down the page and sit there and go, what are the deepest unmet needs from mom?

1:06:31And what are the deepest unmet needs from dad? And once I've discovered what those are, let's say from mom, it was consistency. Let's say from dad, it was protection, whatever it is to be seen, to be heard, to felt understood, supported, acknowledged, appreciated. I mean, whatever it is, write them down and we heal when we become the givers of those to ourselves first. And what's so interesting about different attachment styles and relationships is they all try very, very hard. We always try to outsource our needs where we struggle to self-source. And it's inevitably where we put the most pressure on our relationships.

1:07:03So for example, if you look at an anxious attachment style, they don't know how to self-soothe. So they're like, my partner needs to always be there for me. Or a dismissive avoidant, they don't know how to understand their own inner world and express it. So they end up going, they end up going, people should just understand me. I shouldn't have to explain myself. They just won't text back or they just won't show up. And they're like, they should figure it out. But it's their own learned helplessness that's actually keeping them stuck. Fearful avoidance generally have a bit of a hard time trusting the world or the future or people.

1:07:34And so it's like, okay, well, you're like, you better never, ever, ever tell a white lie ever because how could I ever trust you? And so it's like, well, you know, we're putting excessive of pressure on people outside of us when we struggle to self-source. And the other interesting part is that wherever we've never learned these things, we also do these things back to ourselves. So for example, fearful of wouldn't betray themselves a lot of the time by overgiving and under receiving, by not setting boundaries, by not speaking their truth, by sitting in situations that are actually not okay and pretending to themselves that they're fine.

1:08:07Like there's a lot of interesting themes in there. We tend to replay out these patterns in relationship to self first. So anyways, long-winded way of saying, put your unmet needs from mom, put your unmet needs from dad. And then you wanna actually be like, how am I gonna practice on a daily basis meeting these needs in relationship to self? So if it was I never felt seen as a child, I'm gonna start seeing myself. I'm gonna journal in the evenings. I'm gonna check in with myself throughout the day. What am I feeling? What am I needing? I'm gonna learn about myself at a deeper level. I'm gonna maybe practice mindfulness or meditation so I'm in my body and seeing my emotions.

1:08:39or if it's I never felt protected growing up. Good, you're gonna be your protector as an adult. You're gonna learn to set boundaries. You're gonna learn to speak up for yourself. You're gonna learn to not put yourself in compromising situations and vet people better that you bring into your life. So when we become the givers to ourselves of the things we didn't get access to, the needle moves in a really profound way. And then we heal these core wound imprints. We get them out of our conditioning. We fill the void of things that we're missing. And those are two first really big steps to healing what's happening.

1:09:09Darin Olien:Yeah, because the good and the challenge of that is there's no time. Meaning that when you do it, see that dysregulation is there and it was there, but you can actually go in there now and heal it because it's as if no time. But if you don't do it, it just continues. 100%. Right? So that's the cool thing is like you just do this simple exercise, unmet needs by mom and dad all of a sudden you've now brought up your unconsciousness yes now that you put it on the table you can start to do something with it and it's already running yeah so right it's running behind the scenes so you might as well step in there in the moment and and start to replay this and re-regulate this stuff it's powerful man it's really powerful.

1:10:02Yeah. And what's so interesting is that there's this old concept of forgiveness, right? And I'm a big believer in forgiveness. I, as a fellow Scorpio, really struggled with that when I was much younger. I was great at holding grudges and yeah. And, uh, and over the past decade have become really good at forgiving and it comes naturally. And here's what I found, which was so interesting in my own journey and in the journey of so many people over the years is that we struggle to forgive from the past. Like you hear people say, just forgive people. I remember people would tell me this when I was a kid.

1:10:35Just let it go, forgive. And I was like, it would be nice if I could feel like that. Like I intellectually understand the concept of forgiveness and why it matters, but like, that's not how I'm feeling. And what I realized is that we can't forgive things that we took from people if we're currently still doing them to ourselves. So if, you know, I'm hurting because let's pretend mom and dad were both highly critical okay and then I become my own big inner critic and I'm terrible and tear myself down in my own internal dialogue and then somebody says forgive mom and dad well it's hard to let go of something in the past when it's still very present and living within me and so what I learned over time which was very interesting is that when we can where we're struggling to forgive is usually because we either have core wounds or unmet needs and we're still playing and we have to ask ourselves to your point of no time well if trauma attachment trauma of any form big or small happened And decades ago, why am I still carrying?

1:11:30How is it still with me today? Why does it still affect me today? Well, because it lives inside of your conditioning. And so we can't really let go of something that we're still holding on to. And so when we can sit there and say, okay, what are these deepest unmet needs that I have and fill them? What are these big core wounds I have and get rid of them? Now the idea of forgiveness because we're not carrying something is so much easier to access because it's not still living within us simultaneously.

1:11:54Darin Olien:Yeah, it makes sense when you unpack it that way. Yeah. And then real forgiveness, real healing can happen. Yes. Instead of like I should do it because I'm religious, I'm spiritual or whatever, and it has nothing to do with what's going on really physiologically at that point and neurologically. Exactly. And there's other ways we can access forgiveness. We can look at the sponsoring intention behind people's actions. Why were they critical? oh they were just trying to support me and prepare me for the world and that lessens because it creates distance like there's other ways to arrive but what I found is like when when there's too many people and and I've been guilty of this too in the past which is why this is important for me is is there's too many people this is important for me to learn who are like yeah I forgive them I forgive them and it's an intellectualized form of forgiveness and it's actually an avoidance strategy you're just trying to push it down totally and it's like well if we're resentful towards somebody, if we're struggling to forgive, if we're upset, if it's still bothering us, it's actually a golden nugget for us.

1:12:58It's telling us that whatever that thing is, it still lives within us and it's ready for healing.

1:13:02Darin Olien:Yeah. That's the rub. Yeah. And the opportunity. Yes. Right. That's one of my favorite quotes ever. Have you heard that quote? It's by Rumi. If I'm irritated by every rub, how will I ever be polished? It's such a good one. Amazing. When, when, uh, when's your book out? um so it is out it's in pre-sale right now okay great yeah so people can yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna be one of those people can't wait to dive in um and then you have a lot of resources on your websites and things so what are those so at personaldevelopmentschool.com i have um 90-day boot camps to heal your attachment style so we go through your core wounds and needs and nervous system and boundaries communication behaviors and we deal all with it at the subconscious and unconscious level it's not just the awareness it's the rewiring part um so that's at personal development school.com and yeah amazing i i want to do more of this with you thank you this was so fun so great this is this work is i think really powerful for people and can unlock so much thank you so much and thank you for having me i so enjoyed our conversation yeah awesome thank you nice