Episode 303

26:11The jury did find him guilty of the lesser charge of great bodily harm less than murder. and he was sentenced to three years in prison in the Michigan Department of Corrections, which he did serve three years. I believe that Matt Terry, now that I'm retired, can say this. He should have definitely been found guilty of attempted murder, and he should still be in custody in the state of Michigan. Juries are wishy-washy, and I hope every person that sat on that jury is well aware of what Matt Terry did in the aftermath of being released from the Michigan Department of Corrections. And I hope they live with that every single day of their life.

26:52Matthew was out in just three years and Michelle was petrified. As soon as I found out he was getting paroled, I had started looking for jobs out of state. I knew that if he was going to stay anywhere, he would stay with his parents. And his parents were literally 20 minutes from where I lived and there was no way, there was no way I was going to stay. And so I was terrified. I just knew I had to, to get myself and my kids somewhere safe. So I started looking for jobs out of state. I accepted a job offer, you know, and then I had to file with the courts to both try and, or try and move both of my children.

27:27So one for my oldest son, one for my youngest son, um, to try and relocate them, which is, isn't an easy thing to do. if you know anything about that. Michelle felt completely isolated. It seemed like everybody around her had been taken in by Matthew's facade. Even somebody she once trusted deeply turned against her, siding with the man who nearly ended her life. Nobody talks about how lonely it can be to confront your attacker, but holy shit, can you imagine? Losing your friends because someone else was violent towards you? So I was traveling back and forth, you know, between states for a year trying to get approval to move my kids with me.

28:12And then kind of behind the scenes, this is something I don't think anybody knows because I've never talked about it in a podcast. But like my somehow, because my ex-husband didn't believe me. He said that Matt was too nice to be an abuser and that I was a liar. And so somehow he and Matt had connected behind the scenes and they were working with the same attorneys trying to kind of tag team to keep so one of them could win so that I'd have to stay in the state and I wouldn't be able to move with my children. She didn't know if she'd ever be free of Matthew Terry, but she knew one thing for sure.

28:46He wasn't done hurting people. Living in fear that he might return consumed her. and she knew in her heart that it certainly wasn't over.

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30:41Michelle Rogers of Lansing, Michigan only wanted someone to share parts of her life with. As a mechanical engineer, she had a career, a young son, and a pretty great life. That is, until she met 42-year-old Matthew Terry. At first, the relationship was full of social gatherings and fun dates. But just when she started seeing red flags and planned to break up, she got pregnant. When her son was nine months old, Matthew violently attacked her on St. Patrick's Day after drinking himself into a stupor. She survived, but her life would never be the same. She carried the physical and emotional scars of Matthew Terry's violent outburst.

31:24The justice system failed her, with Matthew only getting a slap on the wrist. Three years. And he was out after stabbing and beating her, leaving her just seconds from death. How would you feel? That thought of him walking free again filled her with dread. She knew what he was capable of, and the idea that he was just out there somewhere, free, walking around, was a weight that she couldn't escape. Three years just wasn't enough. Nobody learns anything in three years. It takes a little longer than that. At least for what he did. And then, one night, suddenly, who could have predicted it? There was another call for help.

32:06In the early hours of the morning, Hillsborough County deputies responded to a distress call from 6211 Kitteridge Drive in Lithia, Florida. Lithia, Florida? Where the hell is Lithia, Florida? Saturday, May 28, 2022. 911, police, fire, medical. I need an emergency, please. What kind of emergency? Ambulance. Stay on the line. Yes, there's someone. Stay on the line, ma 'am. I think it's right in front of my house. My husband just went out there. Or next door. I'm trying to get out my door, but my dog is trying to stop me. Someone is hurt. Someone is hurt outside my house. Ma 'am, I need you to repeat the assets.

33:02Keep a verification. They have lacerated, lacerated cuts. Okay, who's cut? Someone next door. Who is this? They have a major cut to their neck. Do you know what happened? I don't know. My husband heard someone screaming and then we came outside. They're struggling. Get in the house! Don't come out this door! They're struggling. I'm sorry. My children are trying to get out of the house. God. Can you hear the panic in her voice? It's giving me extreme anxiety right now. And the operator just couldn't give a flying fanny way. The neighbors had no idea what was going on. Only that a young woman lay bleeding from the neck near her home.

33:51The confusion was palpable. A quiet neighborhood suddenly turned into a scene from a nightmare with no clear answers for anyone. Anxiety-ridden neighbors looked out their windows as the red and blue lights flashed from the police cars and ambulance. Horrified, phones still in hand, they wondered what just happened. Two people wrestling outside, screams, cries for help. Who was this woman? What happened to her? As paramedics rushed to the scene, the police began piecing together the story, a nightmare story that was all too similar to what happened in Michigan. But this crime happened in Florida, and Matthew Terry lived in Michigan.

34:35Or did he? The young woman was Kay Baker, a math teacher and mother of two. She was barely holding on as first responders worked to stabilize her. Blood gushed from her neck wound and turned the green grass to red, where she'd collapsed in the yard between her home and a neighbor's. Gasping for air turned to a deadly gurgling. through the deep slash in her neck that almost decapitated her. They watched in horror as paramedics loaded her onto a gurney and placed a sheet on her body and over her face. She didn't make it. They couldn't have known the full truth yet, that this wasn't a random attack.

35:21The man responsible was not a stranger. He was someone Kay had welcomed into her life. someone she believed she could trust. Police were already searching for him and his name was Matthew Terry. Show me a copy, I got it. Oslo County Fire Rescue recorded line. How may I help you? Hey, we need y 'all... And what's going on over there? They need your emergency. I think the dog bit him, but he was also bleeding already. It has to do with why y 'all were out there earlier with that female that was bleeding. It's related to that. The stabbing? Yes, ma 'am. Was it a canine bite? Well, that's what I'm saying.

36:08I don't know. I believe the canine bit him, but he was already bleeding when they found him in the woods. Is it emergency or non-emergency? They said emergency, and I can't talk to them because they said to hold the station, so that's all I have for you. Okay. Is the scene secure? Yeah, they need you, like, now. Okay. All right, we'll get them going. Thank you. Okay. Thanks. When deputies entered the home she shared with her boyfriend, Matthew Terry, they found signs of a violent struggle. A bathroom door was damaged, consistent with being kicked in, and the bedroom was locked. When they kicked it open, they found an open window with its screen pushed outward and lying in the yard, hinting that someone had escaped through it.

36:52Blood traces led from inside the house through the backyard toward a wooded area bordering Lithia-Pinecrest Road. The area was cordoned off with yellow tape as investigators and crime scene units meticulously examined the surroundings. Bloodhounds were let loose to track Matthew's movements. Following a trail of blood through the thick bushes near the property, they discovered more bloodstains and a trampled area of leaves. A deputy and his canine partner, Champ, traced the suspects approximately 100 yards east of the scene. Matthew was lying in dense grass, wearing only a blood-soaked t-shirt and underwear.

37:37How pathetic. He also had cuts on his neck, but later it would be determined that he'd cut himself on purpose. And the clip you just heard about the dog bite? Yeah, that's Champ. The canine. He took a nice chomp out of Matthew Terry and good on him. That's a good boy, champ. Good boy indeed. Here is Detective Crumback. I saw parallels in the case from Michigan to Florida. And it's eerie on how similar these cases were. I mean, eerie on how close they were. I mean, from the point of he took a knife from a butcher block in Michigan and assaulted Michelle. He took a knife from a butcher block in Florida and assaulted that victim.

38:30And it seems like he had been consuming alcohol. There was an argument. You know, the fact that he was found in both cases in his underwear and T-shirt soaked in blood in Michigan. in Florida. They found him, you know, a hundred yards away from the house, lying in the woods with his underwear and a t-shirt soaked in blood. I'm like, wow, this looks very familiar to me. And, you know, I think that there appears to me, I wasn't an investigator down in Florida, but I noticed that inflicted a couple of wounds on himself in the Florida case. And I'm thinking, well, you know, he's probably thinking I better cook something up.

39:09You know, that self-defense That's claim worked kind of good in Michigan. I went from 15 to three years. Maybe I can do the same thing here down in Florida. But that didn't work out for him so much. Really, the only difference between the 2017 assault against Michelle and the 2022 assault against Kay Baker is that Michelle was much luckier. That's it. She survived while Kay Baker bled out and died before paramedics could reach her. That's the only difference. When Matthew walked free in 2020, another woman was already waiting for him. This time, he didn't need to charm his way into her life. Kay Baker, a former high school friend, had willingly opened that door.

39:54In fact, she even testified on his behalf at the trial in Michigan, making this whole story even sadder. So I wasn't a part of, like, I couldn't be in the courtroom because I had to testify when she came for the 2017 trial. but she did testify to his character then. But that wasn't the only time. She also had come into some of our child custody and parenting, like the court hearings, to testify on his behalf as well. I don't want to say naive, but she thought he was different than what he portrayed, just like I did. And it wasn't anything that was her fault. He had just told her a story that she believed and she really loved him and cared for him.

40:33And she wanted to believe that he was the person that he portrayed to her. And so I don't fault her at all for being there to speak to this because all he ever showed her was the good side, right? And maybe, I guess I don't know what else he showed her, but I'm assuming that, you know, she saw the good stuff and she believed that he was really a good person. She'd known him for a long time. And so she truly believed that he was that person that she was saying he was. Kay Baker was, by all accounts, the kind of person everyone wanted in their corner. She was bubbly, compassionate, and fiercely loyal to her family, friends, and students that she taught.

41:12As a middle school math teacher, she didn't just teach. She mentored, encouraged, and inspired. Her two boys were her entire world, and she juggled her career and motherhood with a smile. Admirable. But, like anyone else, we get lonely. We reach out into the ether looking for companionship, and sometimes the ether has a sense of humor. A dark sense of humor. When Kay reconnected with Matthew Terry through social media during his trial, she didn't see a monster, but a man she thought she knew. The boy she remembered from high school. The boy she was convinced had been misunderstood. I think it's a good time in the story to reiterate that standing for the wrong person can be deadly.

42:05Kay became one of Matthew's staunchest defenders, even testifying at his trial. In her words, he wasn't a dangerous man, but someone who made a terrible mistake. I've heard that before, that whole, oh, he's not bad, he's just, you know, not as privileged, or something. It's a great excuse for doing awful things and then getting away with it. But Kay truly believed that Matt deserved another chance. And of course, so did he. Detective Crumbach and Michelle got to know each other very well from the 2017 trial. And he remembered all of Michelle's efforts to prevent Matthew from striking again. Instead of being resentful that Kay was siding with her assailant, she tried to warn Kay.

42:54But, as it often does, this message fell on deaf ears. She sent her pictures. She's like, don't let this happen to you. And she just kind of blew her off. And Kay's friends down in Florida, they believed Matt Terry. They believed, you know, his explanation for why he was in prison. they believed that he was wrongly convicted you know they believed his bullshit story because he's that good of a liar and now they're all like oh my god you know now our friend is dead we shouldn't have believed him we should have believed michelle and like well maybe you or your children or somebody in your life will be saved because you were touched by this so who knows and that goes to tell you what a excellent con man Matt Terry is.

43:52He is a self-absorbed narcissistic SOB is what he is and he's damn good at what he does. He can make anyone believe the lie that he is telling them and of course you know his you know his father is going to stick up for him for the utmost and his brothers stuck up for him and his family. They came to court they tried to victim him shame Michelle. They tried to intimidate her. In fact, even after the fact, the homicide in Florida, when we were down in Florida testifying, you know, we were asked to come down on a couple of occasions and testify in that case. And even then, you know, Mr. Terry made comments to the Tampa Journal that in the case involving Michelle, that if he really wanted to have harmed or killed Michelle.

44:43He would have. I'm thinking to myself, were you not in the same trial I was? Have you not seen the mountain of evidence? Have you not seen the seven stab wounds, the broken molars, the black eyes? Have you not seen the bite marks on her face? And you're telling me that that's self-defense. But that goes to tell you what kind of a twisted individual his dad, Mark Terry, is. He made those statements after he had murdered a woman in Florida. And it was just it's just outrageous. In fact, he even got caught when he was testifying on behalf of his son during the portion of the death penalty, where he had gotten caught once again on a jail call to his son the night before, referring to Michelle in a derogatory term.

45:34and the prosecutor brought it to his attention. And of course, that stopped everything right there because there was an objection and, oh, you didn't bring this up. But yet it was very clear that Matt Terry's father, Mark, was talking to his son on the phone after he had been found guilty of first degree murder. And we were testifying in the penalty phase of a possible death penalty that he was still blaming Michelle Rogers for all his problems. And I just thought, you are a piece of work, and you're also a piece of something else. But that goes to tell you where Matt Terry comes from. That's how he was raised.

46:20Right after Kay Baker's murder, her ex-husband's contact information was found in her wallet. So he and his wife were brought to the station. Detectives knew who had done this, but were careful with what they revealed. And what they really wanted to know was what led up to the violent outburst that left Kay bleeding out to die. Kay's sister-in-law shared that on that day, a Friday, Kay's two boys were with her and Kay's brother for their scheduled custody weekend. At around 2 p.m., one of the boys called Kay to excitedly share that she had received a good score on a school test. It was the last day of the school year and Kay began celebrating early with her teacher friends.

47:05And of course with Matthew. When they were brought in, they had no idea what happened. And they also had no idea that they would gain full custody of Kay's two boys simply by default. She's deceased. She's deceased. Yeah. I know what I'm talking about. Car accident? What? Let me do this first. Do you have any contact for her, what would be her legal next of kin, parents, anything up north? I can find out, yeah. The issues started at a bar at around 10 o 'clock that evening. This is one of Kay's friends who was at the bar with her. Shortly after, my husband's going to ask to sit down and he's going to say he wants to leave because he's kind of had his fill on the DD.

47:51Okay. I'm like, no, sweetie, let me stay. I think it's getting kind of tense over here. I know that he was getting very upset because he thought someone was in the bar, was dancing with Kay, or Kay was actually dancing with this gentleman as well. The he that she's referring to is, of course, Matthew Terry. Tara decided to take on the role of de-escalator for Kay. What she's describing involves Kay and another friend at the bar that night. The way it was, the two of them went inside, went to the bathroom or whatever, came back and was dancing around at the bar, and a guy came from behind. Kay even said she didn't notice him, and Kelly collaborated that story.

48:32And I could tell by the way Kay was acting, she really didn't notice and know what he was talking about. But he was pretty upset about it. So I slid over, because traditionally I was sitting in that, you see where that person is? That's where I was actually sitting, and Kay was where I'm standing now. And I moved over because I thought, you know, maybe I didn't drink as much as everyone else because I knew I'd be driving. So I slid down and I thought, maybe I can make this kind of go away a little bit. Because, you know, sometimes when people drink, then that kind of stuff happens. Yeah, it intensifies a little bit.

49:00Right. So I thought maybe I could calm this down. And I basically just said, listen, you know, to him. I said, you must really love her a lot because you're getting so jealous. And I said, and she loves it. But she loves you right back, buddy, because she didn't even notice the guy. And he looked at me and he said, wait a minute. What are you talking about getting jealous? And he goes, I'm not jealous. And he was, that's what right there. He was upset. He was turning towards you. Yeah. Cause he was talking to her the whole time and I was trying to calm it down. And that's when I realized I might've even made it worse because that really made him upset.

49:33That word, that jealous word, like his eyes popped and he didn't seem drunk. Really. Um, I know that Kay was, you know, not, I wouldn't call it like falling over drunk, but they, they were drinking. And he was just really upset with that word. And he goes, yeah, jealous means like you're envious. And I said, well, you know what I mean? like you're jealous, like you care about her, that you want to make sure she's okay, you're protective. And he goes, yeah, because she's beautiful. Look at her and I love her. And I think I kind of sort of appeased him by changing around my words for him. But then Kelly kind of went back into another incident that must have happened, I don't know, pretty close to the night we were there.

50:07And she said, this isn't going to be like on Saturday or whatever when we're at Clearwater. You know, you knew this was our celebratory night into school. You need to stop. And I think her husband realized the waters had It kind of settled and got her to stop. And there was a little bit more back and forth, and then it kind of chilled, and I thought we were okay, but I wasn't 100%. I still felt a little bit of tension. That's why I texted her right away after I left. Tara wasn't the only one at the bar who witnessed the tension and wasn't the only one who later checked up on Kay. This is her friend Kelly.

50:37She's my best friend. Yeah, we got there about... I got there about 6.30, and I got there about 7.30. Yeah.

51:08At that point, her friend throws her arms up into the air, demonstrating what she saw. It was a harmless interaction with a complete stranger. An old man. As Kay and her friend Kelly left the bathroom, they were in high spirits, laughing, celebrating the end of the school year. The two were playfully dancing for just a few seconds, enjoying the moment. Their positive energy seemed to radiate. And an old man who happened to be walking by caught on to their vibe and started to mimic their carefree dance as he moved past. Playfully. Nothing sinister about it. They were barely even aware of his presence.

51:49Just for the record, for the audience, they can't see what you're doing. You're just kind of raising your arms up like you're dancing? Yes. Okay. So, I mean, it was like everybody walked away. I went to the bathroom. She walked to the chair. And so she had stopped to talk to a couple, the neighbor. I sat down after the bathroom. And he's like, who was that guy that he was dancing with? I was like, she wasn't dancing with anybody. Somebody came up, we were dancing and somebody came up to us. And the guy was like, 60. Kay's friends could tell that Matthew was pissed, but no one could understand why.

52:24I don't know, I can't remember what he said, but then I guess he went over and said something to her and just like, owned up to it, owned up to it. She was like, owned up to what, she didn't even remember what had happened. But he seemed like we both kind of got on and were like, stop being an idiot. And so then he seemed to get over it, but then... But then, suddenly, he wasn't over it. Because that's how obsessive narcissists are, especially under the influence of alcohol. Give me a good four hours and I'll tell you all about it. At some point after, I don't know, maybe the third or fourth drink, it becomes all about them.

53:06and they're paranoid and controlling. As soon as Kay and Matthew left, Kelly got a call from Kay on the other end asking her to verify that nothing had happened with the old man. This call came in at around 11.48 p.m. and within an hour, she would be dead. Kay sent one last text saying all good before she got home and it wasn't all good. The attack was relentless. deep lacerations on both hands showed Kay clearly fought back. Matthew stabbed her neck four times and each stab went deeper. He'd already had enough practice. One stab wound to the front right of her neck was so deep it hit the spinal cord but narrowly missed the carotid artery.

53:57A deep laceration to the back of her neck extended from the right side to the left cutting to her spine. The most catastrophic injuries were to the left side of her neck. These forceful jabs were so brutal that it was like someone with a machete hacking through dense bushes. Slashes, stabs, erratic punctures, one of which did sever her carotid artery. If she had lived, she would have likely lost her voice because her larynx was also torn. This was nothing but butchery. He murdered somebody who went above and beyond, drove from Florida to Michigan, for Christ's sake, to comfort you, visit you in prison.

54:44And this is the thank you. Invite you into your home in Florida, try and start a life with you, and you kill her. I'm like, well done. I'm like, I'm just, yeah. And me personally, I can see this kind of coming a mile away. I was like, this isn't the end for him at all. My gut instinct told me, I was like, yeah, he's going to continue in this vein. And Michelle knew that too. I mean, she pleaded with people to listen to her. And they didn't. They're all like, he's going to do this again. He is going to kill somebody. And they're all like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what did he do? Within, you know, a year and a half, he killed somebody.

55:26Initially, the state attorney chose not to pursue the death penalty against Matthew. Kay's family wanted life in prison for Matthew because they didn't want the drama and prolonged process associated with the death penalty. But on August 4, 2022, Governor Ron DeSantis suspended the current state attorney and appointed a new one. The following day, the previous decision was reversed and a notice was filed to seek the death penalty against him, citing the especially heinous nature of the crime and his history of violent behavior. The trial was a dark reminder of how the justice system sometimes gets it wrong and leaves grieving families feeling even more empty.

56:11Once again, Matthew Terry would claim self-defense, but this time there was no victim to speak for herself. This would again fall on Michelle Rogers.

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57:38In the aftermath of Kay Baker's 2022 murder in Lithia, Florida, grief turned into outrage. Her family, still reeling from the loss, faced an unimaginable task of having to explain to her two young sons that their mother was gone forever. Kay's friends and colleagues were shattered. The joy of the last school day turned into disbelief as the news spread. How could this have happened to someone so full of life, someone with so much to give? But this wasn't just a tragedy, it was a failure. Matthew Terry had already shown the world who he was. And we just ignored it. And thought, maybe he'll be better.

58:25In Michigan, he'd stabbed his ex-girlfriend Michelle Rogers in a drunken frenzy. She had survived by sheer will, and yet the justice system handed him only three years because somehow we're trying to normalize this behavior. Maybe because it happens in certain communities that we want to lift up or something? I don't know, but why don't we just punish the things that are wrong and let everything else sort itself out? Jesus fucking Christ, am I the only sane person on earth? Anyway, now Matthew had taken Kay's life and once again pleaded not guilty. Michelle and Detective Crumbach were about to relive their 2017 nightmare.

59:08He's never going to show any remorse. You know, he may. Well, I take that back. You know, during the course of the trial in Florida, he sniffled and sobbed and, you know, things like that. But once again, you got to remember what an actor he is. And I'm sure he actually during the course of the trial, he made a comment that he wanted to testify. And he made a comment to the court later that, you know, he said, well, I wanted to testify, but my attorneys told me I couldn't. And they made me a promise and this and that and the other thing. And, you know, hey, he's intelligent. I think he was worried that he was going to be found guilty and charged with a death penalty.

59:48And he was already trying to set his appeals up. You're probably wondering how Matthew thought it was even remotely possible to avoid a long prison sentence this time. Or at least how to avoid the death penalty. He was someone everyone had already heard of about from the Michigan case, including Michelle, who was a victim of his rage attack and lived to tell about it. He and Daddy, and Daddy's expensive attorney, already concocted a story. You got the wrong guy, they said. Because he did not testify, one of his lawyers gave this long, drawn-out discussion in regards to what really happened. And basically it was the one-armed man theory.

1:00:35Somebody broke into the house and footsteps were heard and people went outside and went to investigate and somebody had assaulted. Oh, Matt showed up and he was the hero and all these sort of things. And I was just like, nobody bought it for a millisecond. But they had to cook a story up and they did, you know, and, you know, unbelievable as it was. And obviously no one believed it because in a case like this, when a jury comes back in an hour and 10 minutes, you're guilty. Like, yeah, they didn't believe that. They paid close attention to the trial, and they paid very close attention to the evidence, and they found him guilty.

1:01:15The penalty phase was different from most. While prosecutors usually pursue the death penalty from the start, a twist in the case changed the trajectory. A political twist, because crime and politics are intertwined, in case you haven't figured that out. Initially, the state attorney's office had indicated they wouldn't seek the death penalty. Kay's family supported this decision because they just wanted relief. They didn't want to engage in the long process of appeals. They knew where this was headed. But when a new state attorney was appointed to the case, he was determined to push for the ultimate punishment.

1:01:57As the jury deliberated Terry's fate, the tension in the courtroom was palpable. Would he receive the death penalty, or would he spend the rest of his life in prison? Kay Baker's stepmother of 35 years asked Matthew some hard questions in her victim impact statement during the penalty phase. Please proceed. What words did Kay say that night to justify you killing her? How bad could those words be? Did she say dad was right? Michelle was right? Was that what got her a death sentence? It is very unsettling as a parent to fear for your daughter because as a partner they've chosen, I feared for Kay's life.

1:02:56her dad feared for Kay's life. And I don't understand why she did not. I hope you fear for your life. During the penalty phase, one last surprise guest showed up to speak on behalf of Kay. I have sat here this week and listened to everything that has happened, everything that has been said. I have watched the giggles and the laughs and the complete disrespect for a woman's life. That woman is not here today. She has passed away. And I feel like it's a slap in the face, especially when I heard that there were no priors, when you were given instruction that there were. I was not allowed to testify in any of this because I accepted misdemeanors rather than pushing for a trial and felony.

1:03:55Surprise, surprise. That was yet another girlfriend of Matthew Terry, who he assaulted back in 2000.

1:04:24heard today regarding Kay's, or not today rather, but this week, were very similar to the things that I endured. And so I did not plan on saying anything today. I did not plan on being a part of this at all. But I feel that Kay deserves that support. Kay's mother expressed a hope that Matthew Terry would experience the same fear he inflicted on others. The judge ensured he would have that chance. I listened to the testimony of Ms. Rogers, both during the Williams Rule hearing and during the trial that we've been in here. And additional testimony regarding the charges, the trial, the sentence in Michigan.

1:05:17I don't know what happened in Michigan as far as the trial and the sentence, but based on what I heard, I believe that you should have been in prison in Michigan and that Ms. Baker should still be alive. This is Florida. You're going to prison for the rest of your life. That should be on a t-shirt. The added testimony of Matthew's girlfriend certainly helped in forming the final sentence. But in reality, Michelle Rogers played a pivotal role in revealing exactly who Matthew Terry was. She was determined that she wouldn't let him escape a sentence he deserved. Michelle Rogers is probably one of the most outstanding, brave, tough victims that I've ever had the privilege of working for.

1:06:17And she saved her own life. She recognized what was happening right in front of her. I don't think a lot of people would have the fortitude and the strength to recognize what was happening immediately and save their own life. And after the fact, she was extremely brave and went forth in the trial with an overwhelming sense of people against her, meaning Matt Terry's family, Matt Terry's friends. They all kind of like pointed the finger at her like she was the one who was at fault, that she was wrong, that she somehow precipitated all these events against her. And she certainly did not. Detective Crumbach also had a few choice things to say about the Michigan jury and the justice system.

1:07:10He doesn't mince words, this guy. That's what you call a wishy-washy, dishwash, dishrag type of a jury. You know, we'll find him guilty of something, but not what he actually did. And that's what happened. I don't have the names of all those jurors, but I hope to God every single one of them, every single one of them knows what he did after the fact and what he did down in Florida. And I hope it tortures their souls when they sleep at night because they did an injustice, not only for Michelle, but they did an injustice for that victim down in Florida, too. The lady's dead. Two boys don't have a mother.

1:07:53Mom and dad think of her every single day. Her sisters think of her every single day. And it's all because a couple of jurors up here in Michigan didn't do their job in a case where there was overwhelming evidence that was well prosecuted. and they found, well, let's go with the lesser charge. And I will tell you, in my career, I saw that happen many, many, many times. You know, it makes me sad that, you know, I used to say that I feel like when I went through my stuff in 2017 that I feel like he got gypped on his sentencing because there wasn't a dead body, because I was somehow miraculously saved and I survived.

1:08:36he didn't get hit as hard as he should have because there's always that doubt right if you're not there and you're not one of the two people that goes through it like well maybe she is really not telling the truth or stretching the truth or whatever right and so because I wasn't dead there was always that doubt and so he again he didn't I didn't feel like he got the sentence that he necessarily deserved but like with K there was a dead body right so finally there was something that was actual evidence and actual proof that he did this. Unfortunately, you know, somebody had to die. And that's just so unfortunate.

1:09:09So unfortunate. And I feel like if someone just would have listened to me, like, because you don't know how many people I tried to fight against his release and against him and just, it felt like nobody was doing anything. Like, nobody. Michelle Rogers survived because she saw Matthew Terry for who he truly was. She didn't fall for the excuses or the hollow apologies. When the red flags started piling up, the controlling behavior, the bursts of rage, she tried to leave. She recognized that staying meant putting herself and her son in danger. That awareness, that fight to escape, is what ultimately saved her life, though not without leaving her with scars, both visible and invisible, that she will live with forever.

1:10:00On the other hand, Kay Baker's story is different. It's not that she missed the red flags entirely, but her memory of Matthew, the Matthew she once knew back in high school, painted a picture of someone far removed from the man who committed these acts of violence. She was deceived by her own memory. Kay had such a good heart that she wanted to see the best in people, even when it wasn't there. That kind of sentiment can get you killed. She wasn't naive or blind. She was hopeful. And that hope, paired with her loyalty to someone she once trusted, made her believe in the possibility of change. Not everybody can change.

1:10:48And not everybody can be saved. It wasn't Kay's fault. it was her kindness, her optimism, her unwavering faith in people that defined who she was. I mean, all those things are good things. We want to encourage that in people, right? We want a society where everyone is kind, is optimistic, and has faith in humanity. But people like Matthew Terry ruin it. Because they exist. Matthew wasn't the person she thought she knew. And he exploited that. As monsters often do. He ultimately murdered somebody that he could no longer control, convince, or I think that she no longer believed in him. When he lost that control, he murdered.

1:11:42That goes to tell you what a, just a useless human being that he is.

1:12:02We all want to believe in people. We all want to trust the version of someone we hold in our minds, the good one. We all want to think positively. But let's not forget that we live in reality, not a Disney-contrived fiction. It comes down to the fundamental base code of what makes us who we are. And it's a tough balance to get right. Optimism versus pessimism. Seeing the good in people versus fearing the worst. I'll tell you, it's very hard to get right. It's something I still struggle with every day. I tend to be more pessimistic. But I can see the value in being optimistic, despite the danger.

1:12:56We all want to keep a version of the people around us that's shaped by our memories, added with our own good character, and make that the real version of the person that is in front of us. but people like Matthew Terry turn that trust into a weapon, and they do it seamlessly. It's just about seeing the red flags. It's about being able to be aware enough to distance yourself when you spot them. Maybe start protecting yourself, because you're the only one in charge of that. I guess the wisest lesson that can be derived from something like this is that it's important to listen. It's important to open up our minds to what could be other than what we think is.

1:13:46Michelle tried to warn us. She tried to warn us all. And we all just ignored her. We're all so locked into our own belief systems and resistant to change. We just can't see different points of view sometimes. until the worst has happened. And then we look back and we see the bodies behind us and wonder if it's maybe time to start listening to those who keep warning us.

1:14:39Thank you.

1:15:06Yeah, Cheryl keeps wanting about the patriarchy. Oh, hi. We've reached the end of the show. So this is where I tell you to help independent creators like us by heading over to swordandskill.com and signing up for Plus.

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