Episode 332

25:30Mike Boudet:Quincy Cross was Victoria's cousin's boyfriend. Victoria tells KBI that somehow everyone involved knew they were going to be interviewed by the Mayfield police. And 15-year-old Victoria says she was told to lie, to divert attention away from Quincy. She says she obeyed. How did you come up on your information that you knew about Quincy? Um, I, what do you mean? How did you know your information? Um, because I heard my cousin speaking about it. And I heard them say some things. Okay. When you talked to us, if we had no knowledge of the case, Victoria, how would you use names? because, you know, you know all the people that you're talking about.

26:27We need to know.

26:30Mike Boudet:Victoria's first statements to KBI were cautious. She says she just overheard her cousin talking to Quincy Cross about the case, and that's where she was getting her information. But after numerous follow-up interviews that summer, her story crystallized. Victoria's statements would implicate six people in total, including herself. By the time she took the stand in 2008, her story had become sharper, more linear, and much more disturbing. And that's when Quincy and Tamara and this white guy, I don't remember his name, but they had pulled up to my house. You said you remembered his first name. Yeah.

27:12What was that? Jeffrey. My cousin asked me if I wanted to take a ride with him. And I was like, yeah, because she's older than me, you know, so it's cool to hang out with older people. So then I get into the car with them, which I got into the backseat. They picked up Venetia. Venetia had mentioned that Jessica had needed a ride for the party, and I guess nobody wanted to give her a ride. So I don't remember what was said, but Quincy and Tamara had was for something to each other, and they were like, okay, then we'll go pick her up. Jessica gets into the car. When we got to the white guy's house, they had gotten out.

27:53We all had gotten out, but they had pulled Jessica to get out of the car with them, kind of like forcing her to get out of the car. And they go inside, and then they go into this bedroom. The white guy had left me and had went into the room with them, and they came right back out, but then I heard yelling and screaming. So I was wondering what the hell was going on. And so I opened the door, and that's when I had seen Tamara holding Jessica down and Quincy over her with a belt around her neck. And Quincy was kind of over her stomach, like up high, on her stomach area. And he had a belt that he had gotten from his pants and had put it around her neck.

28:40and she was just, I remember her saying that she has a little boy and she just kept saying Zion, but they didn't let her up. And I just went back out of the room real quick and I had just sat down on that couch and then I just ran back in there again. And that's when I was like, she's not breathing. So I touched her neck. and I told him that she was dead.

29:12Mike Boudet:Victoria says her cousin Tamara took some photos of Quincy with Jessica's body. These photos were never found. From the pictures that I saw, Tamara had to take a couple of those pictures because she, like, had his private area out and I was, like, kind of towards her lips. Just his lips. And this is in the house. Was this before or after she was murdered? After she was murdered. That's what I mean by they were getting off on it. Victoria says they wrapped Jessica's body in a blanket and threw her into the trunk of the car. They drove around for a while and eventually ended up in the Mayfield Middle School.

29:55Okay, so they stopped at the school. Who gets the body out of the trunk? First, Quincy and the white guy tried to lift the body out of the trunk, but they couldn't. So, Tamar went to the back and helped them lift the body out. Okay. And what do they do with the body then? They lay it in the flower bed area, where the flower bed is. Okay. And then what happens? They, I don't remember if they took the blanket off, I don't remember. They, Quincy poured the gas on her and Venetia threw the match. Where did he pour the gas? When was the majority of the gas poured on Jessica? I believe it was her face.

30:38I'm not really sure. Okay. So he pours the gas. What does he do with the cup? I don't remember what he did with the cup. Because after he poured the gas and Venetia threw the match, I ran. Okay, so, Quincy, everybody gets their story together. Jeremy Adams is going to be the fall guy. Was there any discussion? How did Jeremy Adams' name come in? Whose idea was that? That was Quincy's because I guess Jeremy owed him to the money. Okay. Was there a mention? Was there any mention about, did anybody know that Jeremy ever had a relationship with Jessica? Tamara knew that. How did she know that? Um, I don't know.

31:24Tamara has known Jessica for a long time, from my understanding.

31:27Mike Boudet:But it wasn't just Victoria Caldwell who had changed her story and agreed to testify. Venetia Stubblefield wasn't a primary witness, but she corroborated pieces of Victoria's story. This included the others that were implicated in Victoria's version of events. A man named Jeff Burton, the owner of the house she testified that the murder happened in. her cousin Tamara Caldwell, and a guy named Austin Leach, and someone named Isaac Benjamin. All this testimony gave the jury a cohesive chain from the house to the car to the middle school. Victoria also testified that after that day, Quincy called her, claiming the belt used to kill Jessica was his and offered Victoria money to keep quiet.

32:14Mike Boudet:The Commonwealth put all of this in front of a jury. There were no dramatic forensics, there was no hard physical evidence, and no confession from Quincy. It was all a narrative built from testimony with Victoria Caldwell at the center of it all. And it worked. Ultimately, the jury decided this group of people were guilty and that Quincy Cross was the ringleader. After being found guilty on charges of murder, first-degree rape, first-degree sodomy, abuse of a corpse, and tampering with evidence, Quincy was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. After the trial, guilty verdict, and sentencing, numerous questions still hung in the air.

32:59Mike Boudet:When a case leans this hard on human stories, some of them changing over time, how should we weigh them? What's the standard? People forget things and get things wrong all of the time. We know that. We've seen it. So what do you do with human testimony? As you can imagine, I get presented with cases many times a day, all day. I mean, you know, that's one of the things about being known in this space, right? A lot of people need help, and if they're smart and, you know, and they have the ability, they're going to reach out. So this is Jason Flom. He's a veteran record executive turned innocence advocate.

33:43Mike Boudet:Whether you think you're the next big pop star or you're wrongfully convicted, he's the guy to call. But I first heard about this case from a guy in prison in Mississippi who I've been trying to help for some time now. His name is Sherron Edwards, but he calls himself Sherlock Homeboy. He's a great guy. He's not an innocent guy, but it's a complicated case. But anyway, Sharon Sherlock enjoys researching cases around the country and bringing them to me when he finds cases of actual innocence. So he spends his time at the law library and he brought me the case of Quincy Cross. And when I heard about it, I just was blown away.

34:23I mean, I hear so many crazy cases, but the deeper you get into this one, it's like layers of a rotten onion. and you just keep peeling them, and it just keeps smelling worse and worse, and you go, wow, how could this be? And then I came to find out, sorry for my rant here, but I came to find out that the two dads, Quincy Cross's dad and Jessica Kearns' dad, have been aligned for many, many years now, working together to try to get justice. David Cross wants justice for his son, who's wrongfully convicted. and Mr. Curran wants justice for his daughter, and he's unequivocal in that he doesn't believe they got the right person.

35:10And so it's such an unusual and powerful alignment to have the two dads working together when one would think that they would be mortal enemies.

35:22Mike Boudet:If the people who lived this case say Quincy isn't the killer, what do they know that the jury didn't? One of the things that makes this case so maddening is the idea that first thing they did was they assigned a rookie cop, well, a rookie, a guy who had just been promoted to detective. He was a patrolman up until, you know, I don't know, days or weeks before this happened in a place that has hadn't had a murder in over a year. And they assigned this guy, Tim Fortner, who has said that he he thinks that they were setting him up to fail. He didn't know anything. He didn't even know to secure the crime scene.

36:01They threw out evidence, like lots of evidence. They threw out the maggots that were on the body. Sorry for that detail, because she had been dead for some time, which would have helped to determine how long she had been there for. They threw out all sorts of other evidence and they allowed people to sort of traipse through the crime scene, which is, you know, again, give me your random, you know, teenager. And they would know from watching crime shows on their laptop that or their iPad that you don't do that. Right. But Tim was Tim was way over his head. But there was a lot of stuff going on.

36:39I mean, the Mayfield Police Department was hopelessly corrupt, and that's not speculation, right? That's been proven. The head guy there, Ronnie Lear, was almost comically corrupt and was, you know, indicted and charged and convicted of all sorts of, you know, all sorts of crimes. You know, when he was fired from the police department, they cleared out his desk. They found, as his successor said, they found enough drugs for half of Mayfield in his desk. And they found guns that weren't his police weapon and they weren't registered to him and they don't know who it belonged to. He was caught stealing from the evidence room and selling various items.

37:23I mean, he was a character.

37:26Mike Boudet:And into this mess enters Susan Galbraith, the professional armchair detective.

37:56during official questioning of witnesses, was she not? Official questioning of witnesses? Yes. In other words, we look at transcripts where they say persons present, and we'll see you and Wise O 'Neal Calvary, so-and-so, so-and-so Calvary. She was at these interviews. That's possible. She was, you know, bizarrely almost anointed, deputized, someone who had no experience, no background in law enforcement or any investigative experience or anything. She wasn't a journalist. She was just a homemaker who they allowed to run roughshod over this case. And she was given full access to everything. and sure enough she got her way and she got some awards and she's not around anymore but she died relatively young I guess but she left a trail of bodies in her wake that is really it's really extraordinary Did you have an interest in criminal law in general?

39:10Well when I was a child that either wanted to be a comedian or a police officer. So I'm neither, of course. But I've just always had a fascination with the law and things like that. Have you taken an interest in other cases prior to this one? Yeah, I've followed court TV, stuff like that. So I, of course, was, at the time, there were so many murders in Mayfield going on that I was just dumbfounded by it. It was just, you know, and here was another one, and it just, all of them kind of captured an interest in me, you know. So Detective Steger and I, through Detective Mills, became acquainted, and so I started, anytime I had anything that I could give him, I would call him then, you know.

40:01Mike Boudet:Just a reminder, this was quite literally a random, unemployed woman calling to interview people, taking notes, and reporting back to authorities. and they were taking her seriously. This should tell you something about the state and effectiveness of government more than anything. That is, if you're smart enough to pay attention. The audio you've been hearing, by the way, is from her testimony at Quincy Cross's trial. That's how deeply she was integrated into this case. She was definitely a key piece of it. They really didn't have much else. They had some circumstantial evidence that even after it was disproven, they clung to, and they kept reinforcing it and hitting the jury over the head with it, figuratively.

40:46And, you know, but there's so much to process because it's such a crazy web of lies and corruption. And, you know, and nine people arrested for this crime under these whacked out theories. And, you know, several of whom ended up in prison. Quincy's the only one who's still in prison, but some of them, you know, there were people who were forced to testify in a certain way and then have recanted all the witnesses have recanted. And there's no physical evidence of any kind. All these years later as we know now, there's none. There's zero evidence connecting any of the people who eventually were targeted and I believe framed for this horrible crime to the crime itself or to Jessica.

41:32And what we know now is that most of them didn't even know each other at the time that they supposedly committed this crime together. Things that make you go, hmm, right? That pointed towards, you know, some of the people who ended up in the crosshairs of law enforcement. But how those things unravel is breathtaking.

42:23Mike Boudet:When 18-year-old Jessica Curran's body was found behind a Mayfield Middle School in 2000, the crime scene was handled sloppily, to say the least. Evidence went missing. The Mayfield Police Department was corrupt, and as a result, they dropped the ball. And the ball fell through the grate and into the sewer. Their original suspect, Jeremy Adams, slipped through their incompetent fingers. Then, after a year of stagnation, a new storyline formed around Susan Galbraith, the local sleuth. Suddenly, memories started to change. With Susan's help, Victoria Caldwell and a few others came forward to law enforcement with their new story, that Quincy Cross had killed Jessica Curran.

43:10Mike Boudet:But there are glaring issues with this second attempt at justice. We know the justice system is flawed, but digging into the intricacies of a case like this reveals just how deep the roots of corruption can grow. This is a complicated story, but if you've been listening to our show for many years, he'll keep up just fine. You're not a sword and scale regular listener and you don't know what you're doing, right? I mean, that doesn't mean you're going to be right all the time, but you're more informed than 99 % of the general public if you're listening to sword and scale on a regular basis. So I'm a podcast fan and true crime podcasts are my jam.

43:47And maybe that sounds terrible, but it's true. But this one, I believe, is as good as any that you've ever heard that I've ever heard.

43:56Mike Boudet:Jason Flom isn't just a huge name in the music industry. He's one of the founding members of the Innocence Project. I'm sure you've heard of it. And I'm not just being nice to him because he's kissing my ass. My origin story goes back to 1993 when I randomly picked up a newspaper on my way in a taxi to go somewhere. And there was a story about a kid named Stephen Lennon who was serving 15 to life on a nonviolent first offense cocaine possession charge in a maximum security prison in New York State. and it was in the paper because his mother who was just a mother who wanted her son back right she wasn't like a any influential person had no particular means she was just a regular everyday person from rome new york and she had been petitioning for clemency for her son he had already been in for eight years he was 32 i was 32 at this point i had been sober almost eight years and i was like this is too close for comfort that could have been me right i'm not a religious guy but there before the grace of whatever you believe in goes I, right?

44:56So a major political figure at the time had asked the governor to grant clemency to her son, and he had refused, which is why it was in the newspaper. So I just thought, this is insane. I didn't know that we put people in prison for 15 years to life for a nonviolent birth defense cocaine possession charge. Like, ah, I was like, this is, you know, it freaked me out. And I decided I had to try to do something, knowing nothing at all. I'm a 32-year-old A &R guy aspiring to make my way in the music industry. And I called the mother on the phone. Her name was Shirley. Her number was in the phone book, luckily.

45:32I offered to send some money to get a new lawyer. She said they exhausted all their appeals and was hopeless. And one thing led to another. I called up the only criminal defense lawyer I knew at the time, a guy named Bob Kalina. He represented Stone Temple Pilots and Skid Row, and they were getting arrested weekly back then. Those are your listeners who are old enough to remember would remember that. Got him to agree. He agreed to take the case pro bono. He said it was hopeless, but he was going to try. And six months later, we ended up in a courtroom in Malone, New York. And I sat there holding Mrs.

45:58Lennon's hand. Her husband Stan was on the other side. Stephen was there in shackles as if he was some, you know, serial killer or something, right? And it's a nonviolent first offender. And the judge was this old guy with white hair. And I was like, this is not going to go well. But it did. And he banged that gavel down and sent Stephen home. And that was my moment. I said, I didn't know I had a superpower, but if I do, this is it. And I'm going to use it as much as I can for as long as I can. And I've never looked back. I've never stopped. That's literally half a lifetime ago for me. So from there, I learned about an organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums, now called FAMM.

46:34I became their first board member. And soon after that, I learned about the work of the Innocence Project. Barry Sheck and Peter Dufeld had started the Innocence Project in the early 90s. And what I saw on TV was even another level of insanity, which was a case where this guy had been scheduled to be executed. And these guys, these two geniuses had come along with their law books and their microscopes and their knowledge of science. And they found the DNA and they identified it and they proved that he could not have been the person that committed this crime. And he was not only not executed, he was freed.

47:05And I said, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. And I rushed down to their office and I walked in and I said, I don't know what you guys need me to do. but I'll do it and I'll do more. And so myself and a guy named Jack Taylor became the first two board members of the Innocence Project. So founding board member, not the founders, because the founders are Barry and Peter, but who are heroes of mine. And so I've been working on these issues ever since, and I'll never stop as long as I'm breathing.

47:33Mike Boudet:Jason's decades of experience have helped him and his team to suss out false claims of innocence. Sometimes a guy saying he's been wrongfully convicted really did commit the crime. In fact, that's often the case. But Jason is confident that this isn't what happened with Quincy Cross. I'm so glad I got the opportunity to tell you the story. So after I heard about the case from Sherlock Homeboy, there's another case, another Kentucky case I've been working on for some time of a guy named James Mallory. and he's been in prison, oh my God, for, I mean, pretty much since he was 11. I've been working on trying to help free him.

48:14And I happened to be on the phone with him not too long after I first heard about this crazy case. And I said to him, James, you're not going to believe this. I just got involved in another Kentucky case. It's this horrible case where this poor girl was 18 years old and, you know, just a beautiful young girl starting her life and, you know, was set on fire behind the middle school. And he goes, oh, you're talking about the Quincy Cross case? I'm like, yeah, Quincy Cross. He goes, oh, man. He goes, that motherfucker's innocent. I'm like, he's, I go, what? He goes, oh, yeah. He says, he's definitely innocent.

48:51I know he's innocent. I go, how do you know he's innocent? He goes, man, I was in jail with him. He says, he's a good dude. He goes, I read his transcripts. I know the case inside and out. That guy's definitely innocent. I go, he's definitely innocent. He goes, no, I'm telling you, he's really, really innocent. I go, how are you saying he's really, really, really innocent? He said, well, because, dude, he goes, the actual killer was my cellmate. He goes, look it up in the DOC records. And he confessed to me and everybody else in the jail. And he goes, I know every detail of the case. He told it all to me.

49:25And he goes, and I'm from that area. So I recognize, I know some of the people.

49:30Mike Boudet:The cellmate this guy said had confessed to the murder was Jeremy Adams. I was like, oh my God, what are the odds of this? And, you know, the first thing I did was call, actually called Barry Sheck at the Innocence Project. I said, Barry, is this hearsay? He goes, no, that's a statement against interest. If he actually, and I said to James, I don't want to put you in a bad way. Like if you're, you know, I don't want you to be labeled as somebody who told on somebody who confessed. He said, no, no, in this case, it doesn't matter because he confessed to so many people and everybody here knows that Quincy ain't the guy.

50:06So he goes, I'll sign affidavits. I'll do whatever you want. I don't know the exact number, but there could be as many as 15 people who have come forward either with affidavits or with statements that Jeremy confessed to them.

50:21Mike Boudet:And let's not forget that Jessica's best friend, someone who hasn't changed her story over the years, told police that Jessica knew her baby's father had to be one of two men. She had a paternity test done and it came back negative for the first guy, so, you know? But let's now take a moment and revisit people who did change their stories, because that's the crooks of the case. There were witnesses who have come forward and talked about how the Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, state police, threatened them with really terrible things. Taking their children away, sending them to prison for the rest of their life, jabbing them with a needle.

51:03They conducted these very unorthodox interrogations in a hotel instead of at the police station. You know, the whole thing is really pretty grotesque. And when you hear, which you will hear, these people come forward and tell their truth. The pain is palpable as they talk about how they were made to lie under these threats. And they were kids, you know, so they were kids. Some of them were troubled. One was a crack, you know, was addicted to crack. And that's how you end up in this situation.

51:41Mike Boudet:Jason hosts his own podcast called Wrongful Conviction. He's the founder of the parent company Lava for Good, a media company that partners with the Innocence Project. His team spent several years digging into the case, and the result was a full season of their show Bone Valley. Go check it out on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. At first, when the team reached out to interview Victoria Caldwell, she seemed almost afraid to talk about the case. I don't know. I'm not allowed to talk about it. I don't want to piss these people off, and they're very powerful. Piss them off in what kind of way? What do you mean powerful?

52:21You're making me nervous.

52:22Mike Boudet:Maybe I should rethink having this conversation. They're two very powerful people. Eventually, they coaxed Victoria and others to talk. I really feel like my, I guess my statement that I gave on video would stop. Lots of times when I was told what to say. And people could see the scratches. Who was telling you what to say? From Ron Hillier to the KBI. How did they get you to say what they got you to say? What happened? They told me they'll stick a needle in my arm on the elevator at the tree. It was kind of like Jury Ann in Paducah, Kentucky. In case you couldn't understand what she was saying in context, Victoria says they threatened to do all this at the Drury Inn in Paducah, Kentucky.

53:14Mike Boudet:That's the hotel KBI conducted the interviews at. Venetia Stubblefield, the peripheral witness who corroborated parts of Victoria's second version of events, signed an affidavit admitting that she gave false testimony at the behest of law enforcement. Another witness admitted that she had been willing to testify for money and said that officers threatened to put her in jail or take her kids away if she didn't keep lying. And remember, all of these people were implicated by the story. They served their short sentences and years later they've recanted. Sounds like a bunch of shitty police work if you ask me.

53:55Mike Boudet:But hey, what am I other than an internet sleuth? They took plea deals because Quincy went to trial first. And when he was convicted and sentenced to life, for the other people, they were looking at a similar fate. And when they were offered a deal, it's the Sophie's choice, but you can't blame them for taking it. um this is some this is some small town stuff and you know if you're if you're looking at uh you know basically a living death sentence right um and the prosecution certainly in princy's case asked for him to get the death penalty then i you know that's that's a that's a choice that you can i hope nobody that's listening ever has to make that choice but you can you can understand how that choice could have been made by people who are actually innocent it happens all the time.

54:45Well, unsurprisingly, the lowest sentences were the ones who testified for the government. Two of them, and there's so many people, there were nine, right? And I can't even keep them all straight in my head. But when you hear the podcast, you'll know, because that's the awesome power of the government, right? They can say to you, you give us information on so-and-so and we're going to make sure things go well for you. So the sentences were, I mean, almost ceremonial in those cases, right? Because if that's the right word.

55:14Mike Boudet:And the power of the government doesn't stop there in this case. Jason's team at Lava for Good and the Kentucky Innocence Project separately uncovered evidence that Victoria Caldwell had been paid by the state and was essentially put in their witness protection program relocating her to North Carolina and funding her entire lifestyle while the case was being built. Records show that the Attorney General's office and Kentucky State Police were reimbursing her from February 2007 through January of 2008. Almost a year. They paid for rent, utilities, groceries, restaurants, gas, car repairs, clothing, phone cards, and even purchases from places like sex shops.

56:04Mike Boudet:Yeah, yeah, that's where your taxes are going. believe it or not. I read an article from some time ago that there was a rumor that some cop named O 'Neal, that name's out of America. Uh-huh. Was there ever any monetary exchange between you and him? What do you mean monetary? Money. Did he send you money at all? He's always giving me money. Okay, when you say money, what kind of money? Are we talking like a couple hundred bucks just to get by, Are we talking about a couple grand to help? More than a couple grand, but he's always taking care of me. Is it cash? Check? No, cash. Always cash. You meet in public places or he comes to you?

56:51How does that work? No, he comes to my house.

56:54Mike Boudet:At trial, when the defense asked about this, KBI downplayed it, acting as if they'd only paid for rent and utilities. This wasn't an isolated incident either. Another state witness said officers paid her$100 to make controlled calls. Cash for cooperation. All while she was in the grips of drug addiction. But all of this is just the tip of the iceberg. Let's get back to Susan Galbraith and Tom Mangold for the moment. Susan was actually the very first person to put Victoria Caldwell in touch with the Kentucky Bureau of Investigation for a second round of questioning. She steered the narrative prosecutors eventually ran with, and she had a motive much deeper than just a cursory interest in this case.

57:44She was in a relationship with the mother of the obvious suspect, Jeremy Adams. And it seems like she found something to do. I think she was bored and she found this opportunity to become famous, important, whatever it was she was after. And at the same time, help to steer the cops away from the son of her partner relationship, whatever they want to call that, you know, to her lover. and then of course in order to finish that job she had depended on somebody else.

58:33Mike Boudet:And to think that this woman was allowed behind the crime scene tape. She was given backstage access to the evidence rooms, told authorities who to interview, sat in those very same police interviews, discussed her theories with the Kentucky State Police, and even testified at Quincy's trial. She inserted herself into this crime to a degree that is unprecedented. I don't think we'll ever know all of it because there weren't records made of all the conversations. But what we do know is that she was given a level of access that is confounding to say the least. And not just access, but influence.

59:20She was allowed to steer the investigation as if she was some senior official empowered to run roughshod over this whole thing. And, you know, all those years later, she starts building this case based entirely on circumstantial evidence and rumors and innuendo. And then that takes on a life of its own when the authorities get involved and start getting these people in a room. Again, a room in a hotel. It is a hotel, but I don't want to conjure up something fancy. It certainly wasn't anything fancy. But why? Why, why, why? I mean, wouldn't you want to, I mean, how basic is it to take someone to the police station?

1:00:03and do it there.

1:00:05Mike Boudet:But hotel interviews are really at the bottom of the list when it comes to the issues with this case. It's really heartbreaking, not just because of what happened to Quincy, who got the worst of it, because he got life without parole, and he's been in for almost a quarter of a century. But what happened to these other people, you know, the ones who were forced to testify or the ones who just got caught up in it because of Susan. I mean, Jeff Burton, you know, who's, who's a white kid, um, who got caught up in this. He never met Quincy. You know, he doesn't know anything about this. He didn't, you know, he wasn't a troubled kid.

1:00:48He was a good kid. He was a young father making his way. But when, uh, when Susan became convinced that there There was a couple of white people involved. She just went searching for some white people that she could sort of rope into this thing. And she found out that there was a couple of parties in Mayfield, one of the knights in question. She found out he was at one of the parties, and that was good enough. And so literally, he knows nothing about this. And he ended up serving, you know, many years in prison and still suffering to this day. And the ripple effect of all of this, how it hurts the community, taking him, just take Jeffrey alone, leaving aside, you know, so many of the other people who were wrongly targeted and ultimately so badly hurt.

1:01:40You know, Venetia, Victoria, Jeff Burton, we talked about, Tamara, Caldwell. Each one of those people has people that love them. Some of them had children that they left behind. all of them have scars that don't easily heal, you know, from this horrific experience of being betrayed by people who their taxes go to pay in service of somebody who skated.

1:02:13Mike Boudet:Quincy was convicted in 2008. He lost his first appeals by 2010. After three more attempts to get his case revisited, He was denied. For several years now, Jason, his team at Lava for Good, and the Innocence Project have been pulling out all the stops trying to free him. I called Joe Curran. I spoke to David Cross, the dads of the victim and the wrongfully convicted man. I believe he's wrongfully convicted. Again, listen, make your own judgment. And I said, I got to help. And one of the things I've done over the years is try to appeal to governors and even presidents for clemency in situations where I know wrong has been done.

1:02:59And it's a power that's vested in these people because they are the last stopgap in the system that gets it wrong far too often. You know, there's that great saying from the English jurist, William Blackstone, who said it's better that 10 guilty men go free than that one innocent should suffer. And so in this case, I thought, let me try to reach out to the governor, you know, because this has got to change. And when you've got the victim's father advocating for the guy who's wrongfully convicted, that's powerful. You know, that should go a long way. I feel connected to Kentucky. You know, my wife's father is Muhammad Ali.

1:03:34So, you know, he's a Louisville. So I reached out. I don't know the governor. I met him only once, actually, at the Ali Center in Louisville, but only for a minute. but I didn't know him back then. I'd never met him. But I was able to get somebody in a position of significant power and influence in the highest levels of government, I won't name names, on the phone. And I figured he'll give me three or four minutes just to, I don't want to say humor me because there's nothing funny about it, but to, you know, placate me. And I ended up speaking to this person for 26 minutes. I remember that because I remember looking at my phone and going, And damn, that was a long conversation.

1:04:15And he was like, oh my God, this is the craziest case. And, you know, Mayfield, Kentucky, there was a tornado there recently. And, you know, we know the mayor and, you know, we're going to get involved. Like this, this has got, you know, he was like, he was almost breathless. And I've never had a conversation with a person in a position like that. I've had a lot of conversations, but never with somebody who's like so enthused to get involved and help. Usually it's very, you know, monotonal, you know, relatively curt. And then he called me back that night at home. Kids running around making noise in the background.

1:04:51He's like, I just want to make sure I got this straight. And he's going through details of things. I'm like, oh, my God, I called Mr. Cross. I'm like, I think we're going to get somewhere with this. I mean, I hate to say that because you never want to raise expectations. But I was like, this is unbelievable. It really seems like they're really interested in this injustice. And then he ghosted me. Never heard back again. Tried reaching out. And I'm the farthest thing from a conspiracy person. But one might speculate that perhaps he was excitedly talking to somebody else, I don't know who, who said to him, Back off.

1:05:35Leave that one alone.

1:05:37Mike Boudet:Victoria Caldwell has flipped back and forth over the years, recanting her statements and then turning around and saying that she was actually telling the truth. Jason's team uncovered emails between Susan Galbraith and Tom Mangold from all the way back in 2012, where Tom wrote that there's a, quote, teeny-weeny, itsy-bitsy chance we've got this whole fucking murder story wrong. In public, though, he doesn't want to talk about the case. After the Kentucky Innocence Project got involved, CNN covered their progress. They reached out to Tom for comment, and he said, quote, If your project is any attempt or reference to the fact that Quincy Cross and all the others who were convicted of Jesse's murder might be innocent, then I want nothing to do with it.

1:06:26Mike Boudet:If it's anything else, I'd be pleased to help. Quincy is still in prison. I spoke to him today, actually. He's excited that we're today as we're recording, not today as anyone's listening, as people listen whenever they listen. But yes, I spoke to him today. I've spoken to him many times. He's relentlessly optimistic. He's not bitter. He really just wants his story to be heard. And he wants justice, not just for himself, but for Jessica and for the others. I've interviewed hundreds of people on the wrongful conviction podcast who've been either you know who are either on death row or they're in prison for life or they've been they've been freed after serving 10 20 44 years more 48 years like Glenn Simmons in prison and every one of them is you know optimistic thoughtful even I mean they they exude this sort of grace, you know, and it's just mystifying and inspiring to hear them.

1:07:30And it puts, uh, it puts gratitude in my attitude and puts any other problems that we all have in perspective. There's still, uh, some legal remedy. I'm trying to remember what it is. Um, but he does have, yes, he does have some court proceedings still to come. Um, there's some discovery being done. So follow along. And I believe that there is still a strong chance. I have to cling to that belief that he can be exonerated in court. But the other last option is if that's what it takes, then I hope that the governor, this governor, the next governor will take a hard look at this case and see what now is clear to anybody who takes a serious look at it, which is that the wrong guy's in prison.

1:08:23And he's been in for a very long time.

1:08:25Mike Boudet:For Jessica's parents, the system's failures have a different cost. The paperwork. The headlines, the endless retellings, none of it brings their daughter back. When they tell you, you know, well, something good will come out of this, and things will get better with time, and you get asked my wife, and it's just like it happened last week. It don't get better. You learn to live with it, but it never gets better. We're going to miss her until the day we're gone. No doubt about it. and so will everybody else in our family because she had that big of an impact on all of us. And I would say most of her friends.

1:09:09She was just that kind of person.

1:09:13Mike Boudet:The fire that took Jessica Curran's life never really stopped burning. Susan Gobreth reignited the sparks, maybe hoping the flames would clear the debris and reveal the truth. or maybe to burn away evidence that pointed towards Jeremy Adams. In the end, those flames weren't a tool of justice. They were chaotic, aimless, driven by something other than truth. And they, eventually, consumed everything in their path.

1:10:02Thank you.

1:10:26Mike Boudet:and this year. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll be back after a short break.

1:11:11Mike, what's up, my man? This is Ken from Tennessee. Listen, first thing I got to say is that as a law enforcement officer, it truly makes my blood boil sometimes when you say that you don't, and people on your show should not talk to cops. As much of an advocate as you are for the victims that you portray, that are led on your show, you're saying don't talk to the cops, it's totally bad backwards to me. But nonetheless, I got to say, I was one of those guys who never liked podcasts. I thought they were for weird people who had no good taste in music. But when I was introduced to your show, I got to say, I was into the show.

1:11:50Obviously, I drive a lot from my job. So when somebody gets in my car, they hear what's on the radio. It looks like you're a pretty staff. So from your law enforcement fan base, I say to you, stay safe and keep up the good work, my dude. Thanks.