F1 Academy Managing Director Susie Wolff | Driven

0:06Welcome to the Talks at Google podcast, where great minds meet. I'm Matthew, bringing you this episode with the F1 Academy's managing director, former professional racing driver, and one of the most respected women in motorsport, Susie Wolff. Talks at Google brings the world's most influential thinkers, creators, makers, and doers all to one place. You can watch every episode at youtube.com slash talks at Google. Today, Susie joins us to discuss her book, Driven, an inside look at the competitive world of Formula One and her trailblazing 20-year career, taking readers from the driver's seat and the F1 paddock all the way to the future of the sport.

0:55After cutting her teeth in kart racing, Susie went on to make history at the 2014 British Grand Prix by becoming the first woman to take part in a Formula One race weekend in 22 years. Following her retirement from driving in 2015, Susie launched Dare to be Different, a call to action aimed squarely at driving female talent by inspiring the next generation and increasing female participation in all levels and aspects of motorsport. Then, in March of 2023, Susie was appointed as the Managing Director of the F1 Academy, the all-female driver category that aims to develop and prepare young female drivers to progress to higher levels of competition.

1:41Now, please enjoy Susie Wolfe, Driven. Thank you all for coming and thank you for having me. Yeah, I know. So excited to get to have the discussion. And so, Susie, to start us off, you've described the sensation of driving an F1 car. And you did it so vividly in the book. And now meeting you in person, it just sounds impossible. So challenging physically, not even getting into the mental. But you said it felt like five times your body weight, ricocheting your head around, your lungs are pushing against your rib cage. after that level of physical intensity. What do you miss most about that feeling?

2:21And what do you definitely not miss? Definitely don't miss all the training sessions. You know, my neck took a lot of strain because when you're driving an F1 car, you're strapped in so tightly and the seats obviously molded to you. But the only thing that isn't obviously fixed is your neck. And people don't realize that in an F1 car, there's power steering. So it's not actually the force of turning the wheel, which is tough which is difficult to comprehend because when you see the size of the car and the tires you think well it must be hard to turn but because of the power steering it's actually very light and a driver can very much play with how much power steering they want in the car so you get huge forces coming through your your neck and I remember in one of the the test sessions I did at Barcelona I was doing a race distance and I came to the first braking zone and you hit about 4.5 G and 1 G is your own body weight.

3:14And my head got thrown forward and I thought, I got 74 laps of this. But you get accustomed to it. But the training is really relentless. And I guess because I knew a lot of people questioned whether a woman would be physically fit enough to drive an F1 that I certainly didn't want that to be the barrier that stopped me. So I was very disciplined in the training and that is one thing I don't miss at all. But when I was discussing with my brother how to open the book, I very much, because I love reading autobiographies regardless of whether it's sports or business because I love real life stories.

3:55And when I looked at the books which really drew me in, which I really enjoyed, it's when the author brought me into their world and took me on the journey. So when we were discussing how to open the book we knew we didn't want it to just be a motorsport book that chronicled the kind of journey through racing and my brother said people I would love people to know what it's actually like because I would love to know what it's like to drive an F1 car so we opened the book by really trying to bring you on that journey of what it's like sitting in an F1 car driving for the first time but certainly now when I wake up and decide whether to go to the gym or not I love the fact that it's my choice that I'm not forced to go and put huge weights through my neck.

4:38No, that's great. And I remember in the book where you're trying to decide if you add the neck cushions or not add the neck cushions. I'm glad you joined and put in the neck cushions. I'm glad too. And I have to thank Lewis for that one because there's a long right hand bend at Barcelona and it's notorious because it's long and you have to hold your neck. And he said to me, during a race distance get them to put the neck pad in yeah paint it the same color as a car so nobody can see that it's there and he said don't even try and keep your head up through turn three first lap lean the head because if your neck goes it goes and there's no getting it back so it's actually really good advice and I never actually worried getting through turn three because the minute I turned right I lent my head and I yeah breezed through that corner not having to keep my head up.

5:31Yeah, maybe it wasn't a breeze, but it certainly didn't stop me from doing 74 laps. It's just crazy. It's just kind of like inconceivable, the strain on your body. Well, I loved also in the book how much you shared about your personal experiences and your family and just growing up in Scotland and that your parents really created this environment of try everything. And I listened, had the opportunity to listen on the audio and get to hear your cute Scottish accent saying, you know, give it a go. And I just really love that, that I could hear your mother probably saying that to you. And right alongside your brother, like all the challenges you got to go through together, that was really amazing.

6:11So how did you feel, you know, that early environment in your career where you had family supporting you so much to push you to try things, to try things when you're in a room where people didn't look like you? How do you feel that impacted your life and the opportunities that then you went on to create for yourself? Well, you all look very young. Do any of you have children? Yeah, very few. That's the age group here. I look back and I'm so grateful to my parents because I have an older brother who's only 15 months older than me, but they didn't differentiate between son and daughter. And he had a little motorbike.

6:52I wanted a little motorbike. I got one. I never really, because my dad had a motorbike shop. And I never really realized that I was a tomboy. I still loved Barbie and I obviously bring Barbie to life in the book because my whole journey with the color pink and Barbie. But it was important for me because I certainly went through a spell in my career where I thought I had to kind of shy away from my femininity because I wouldn't be taken seriously. And I'm sure many of the women in this room maybe feel there's moments in their career where they're not sure how to turn up, how to be, because you get judged so much as women as to how we turn up.

7:27And I went through that battle. You know, if I was too feminine, would I be taken seriously? Would they think I meant business? If I didn't make an effort on my appearance, then that wouldn't be great for the kind of whole commercial side of the sport. So it was a real balancing act kind of going through that. And I'm just grateful that the environment I grew up with really gave me that solid foundation. and I think culturally in the sport we've seen a huge shift in the last five years where there are more women and it's more acceptable the environment isn't as macho and male-dominated and F1 academies playing a big part in that change but I'm really happy to see that change happening because I think it's a sport where we've seen so many more young female fans I loved racing as a little girl and was lucky that I didn't have an environment around me telling me that I couldn't be in the world of racing.

8:21But I think there is still this stereotype that we have to break down that it's a male-dominated environment that isn't welcoming to young girls because it absolutely is. And I can share with you, we did a Hello Kitty collab at the Las Vegas Grand Prix last year. It sold out really well and beat some other collaborations we know with Disney. And it's about bringing this whole femininity and it's okay to like pink, but still love racing. And I think that's something which is important. So if I go back to my childhood, I was lucky to have that environment, but not everybody does. And we as a sport need to make sure that we speak to that new, young, next generation.

9:04Right. And I thought it was interesting how you said you were all pink and then realized you were standing out and kind of getting targeted for that. So then scaled way back on that. And then once you had established yourself and had earned everyone's respect for your abilities, then you could transition back into being a little more pink. How did that whole sequence feel to you? I had a really big love affair with the color pink. I mean, I drove a pink car when I raced for Mercedes-Benz in German touring cars. And at the time, I hated it because it was so cliche, female, blonde racing driver in a pink car.

9:42But I realized more young girls came to the track because of that pink car. And I think that's when I realised that representation matters, that it's actually bolder and more confident to go out there and fight against these stereotypes and not let it speak to my ability in the car. But I also think I realised quite early on, and I've said this very often, that performance is your key power, regardless. In my sport, we wear a helmet, so I actually don't see the driver out on track. but I'm sure for all of you that are in your work environments if you're really good at what you do it kind of becomes irrelevant if it's a male or a female that's that's in your team or sitting in a meeting with you it's about being really good at what you do and I think certainly we are in a situation where women are getting more opportunities but fundamentally it doesn't matter if you're a man or woman just be really good at what you do and that's what I I realised that would cut through all the noise about my gender, about all the opinions of whether a woman could be successful in a male-dominated world, because we're one of the few sports that isn't segregated in the world.

10:51There's sailing, which obviously involves a big boat, horse riding or jumping, which is a very big animal, and motorsport, which involves a big car, because I'd be the first to admit, put me on a running field against a man, and I'm never going to win the race. Men have 30 % more muscle. But I think in a sport like motorsport, motorsport it just comes down to the fact that there's so few women racing the talent pool is so small that you just get very few climbing up through the ranks i liked how you surprised some people on swimming too if you want to share that little anecdote from the book i felt it was important to put that story in because it kind of showed my character from an early age because i was never the most talented at swimming but i had a lot of tenacity and i was very very competitive so my brother and I would go to swim training three times a week in the morning and it came to the coach picking the squad and we were all lined up and of course my brother got picked my best friend Heidi got picked and I didn't get picked and I remember hating that feeling of everyone having pity for me saying oh poor Susie don't worry next time hated that and in my head at the same moment I was thinking coach you just made a big mistake and I am going to show you that you made a big mistake so I started training really hard and when the first gala came I of course beat some of the girls that had made the squad and there wasn't really a recognition of me then being put in the squad he just said to me one day come on you're training with the squad and you go because I think he he realized that with my character there was no way I was going to not accept being in the squad but that competitiveness that resilience to fight back when I failed ultimately I'm so glad that's in me because that held me in really good stead because there were so many moments throughout my career that I did fail and I remember doing a little speech for my son's school and an audience of nine to eleven year olds that's a tough audience I kind of for eight minutes spoke about driving and racing and we put the questions to the floor and all these little hands went up and I picked this little boy who looked like he had a really friendly face and he said so how many races have you actually won?

13:19I was like whoa tough. I said well you know I've actually lost way more than I've won because if your name's not Lewis Hamilton win you know there is only ever one winner to any race and it's it's really tough to win but you know I learned from the races I didn't win I came back stronger you didn't look very impressed and then the second question was from a little girl who said well what character trait do I need to become a racing driver what what do you think is the most important and I'm pretty sure she thought I was going to say you know hand-eye coordination or balance but without having to even think twice I said you've got to have grit and determination you've got to have resilience because there's going to be so many tough moments whatever sport you choose and it's the ones that pick themselves back up in those moments of failure that defines whether you make a career or whether you become successful over a longer period because there was definitely and I bring to life some of those really tough moments in the book but I don't want anyone to think that my journey was plain sailing and only full of big successes because there were definitely more tough moments.

14:28Yeah, no, definitely you highlighted many of them and I thought there was another comment which I really appreciate I think in here too Will, just as were some of us our mothers, but that 85 % of executive women played sports while they were young and it wasn't the winning or losing, but the grit that it teaches you and how important building that skill is, I find, you know, having grown up being a competitive athlete as well, all of those determination things come so full circle in the work setting, which I know you carry over into your work setting as well. 100%. So there's any women in the audience who are not doing sports, quickly start playing something because you will learn some really good things for your for your business careers but I definitely think you know my little son is also karting now and who knows if he's going to be good enough over the longer term but I just see how much it helps his character you know putting yourself out there whether it's in a team sport in an individual sport there's just so much you can learn in that environment and certainly in this day and age where let's be honest it's it's tough sometimes I think building up that resilience and them coping with failure and you're not shielding them from the difficult moments that can come.

15:44I think for me as a mother, that's really important for him to have. Yeah, that resilience for sure. Well, let's spend a second. You highlighted as your professional career was taking off and you had met Lada and she helped you find a rib protector that actually fit for your body. And I know it seems like a small detail, but I really loved how you described it as really a turning point for you in the book and finding someone who really understood the challenges that you were going through. So can you tell us a little bit more about that, about finding sponsorship, even in the small moments like that?

16:20Definitely. You know, Lotte was a very successful cart driver. She was Swedish. She was about, at the time, probably 15 years older than I was and she was the only cart driver that I knew that was female and that had been very successful and I ended up driving for her team and I think just seeing someone who was achieving what I wanted to achieve was already hugely important on my journey that whole if you can see it you can believe it I'm definitely a big supporter of creating those strong role models because I could see how it opened up especially at that point where I was around 14 it really opened up the fact well if Lotta can do it then I can do it and it's quite funny when I looked back because at the age of eight you know I was racing I had Formula One drivers up on my wall of course they were all men but I never once thought that I couldn't do it just because I didn't see any women but I do think as you get into your teenage years everything becomes a bit harder you may be lacking confidence at certain points in your life it is really important to see those female role models and then you know Lotto was tough because she knew how tough it was to be successful in racing but she really put an arm around me and in those key moments helped me and it was like this idea of a sisterhood where she was looking out for me and she was someone to look up to so I saw firsthand how powerful that was and that's why I feel very privileged to be in a role now at F1 Academy where I can be that for the next generation and I'm certainly older now than I than let's say that I can be very close to what the experiences they are going through because the sport is definitely different now to when I was racing but I do love the fact that they can see someone that's achieved and they've got other women around them who are achieving, who are going through the same journey as them.

18:23There's a certain camaraderie in F1 Academy. Yes, they need to beat each other on track, but they're all going through the same lived experience, the same pressures. And I think having other women, even not just women, but other people on the journey with you who can pick you up in the tough moments, can be cheering for you on the sidelines in the great moments it's really important who you surround yourself with and I was lucky to to have some great people male and female throughout my journey but certainly I always say to the next generation be very conscious of who's around you because that can have such an influence yeah for sure and what you've created with the F1 Academy is amazing maybe just spend a minute in case everyone isn't aware of it what all include that's a really good question now for our audience who is aware of F1 Academy?

19:13That's really encouraging. Yeah. So F1 Academy was started by Formula One. I don't take the credit. It was Formula One who said, okay, we have got a real shift in the demographic of our fan base. I mean, 42 % of the global F1 fan base is now female. Fastest growing fan demographic is the 18 to 24 year old female. So the sport really recognized that shift. They wanted to start F1 Academy to create opportunity because in our sport there's a very high financial barrier to entry and we fully fund the 18 young drivers well over 80 % fully fund the 18 young drivers on the grid and we segregate because we only want to really help the female talent because there's so little female talent but we also race alongside F1 to give the exposure to make sure that the next generation the parents of the next generation also that's very important see that the sport is inclusive see that there are opportunities for young women and it's not just about the racing drivers we try to open up every aspect of the sport and really break down the stereotype that there's no opportunity for women and certainly we've seen a big cultural shift in the sport more and more very talented women in the paddock not always in camera facing roles you don't always see them but I've certainly from being in the sport for such a long time seen such a shift and probably never expected to see such a shift in such a short space of time.

20:38So I think F1 Academy, and obviously we have the 11 Formula One teams on board. And I think that's quite a testament to how the sport has shifted because those 11 Formula One teams have never given their name and livery to anything outside of the F1 cars they build. So for them to commit to F1 Academy, to commit to supporting a young female driver, that's a real, I think, credit to where the sport is and how much they mean business. It's not just a diversity box ticking exercise. I think we all know those when we see them. But this is something which I think really, if one realizes it's fundamental to its long-term growth and popularity.

21:22No, it was an amazing effort on your part. And you're very humbled to not take as much credit as I think was so critical for you personally being involved in getting all those companies to sign on. And, you know, we at Google, we spend a lot of time. We're building first of a kind everything all the time. And it's a collaboration, chaotic environment. And I think everyone in this room has the experience of trying to get something done where you had to corral and deliver influence on people and get something done. And maybe talk a little bit about how you were able to do that and just get all those 11 companies who have never signed something together to do that.

22:03Because in our daily lives, we're constantly faced with the challenge of trying to drive a result. But our only stick is influence. Yeah, when I had this, so I can take you back to the beginning of the journey. And I obviously put it in the book. I remember when I took on the role, I drove to the first race. we raced not with Formula One at the time. And it was at a circuit called Paul Ricard, so not far from where I live in Monaco. And I remember getting near the track thinking, it's strange, there's no cars around, it's so quiet. And I drove in and I thought, have I got mixed up with the dates or something?

22:41Because I've never been to such an empty racetrack. And I drove in and it was literally just the F1 Academy trucks and nobody there. And I'd never been at such a deserted racetrack before. and I got out of my car and I immediately got met by two of the team bosses who said listen this is not working we're not finding any sponsorship so we're out at the end of the year it's like okay great to see you and then some of the drivers came to see me and said well listen we're supposed to pay for one third of our budget but we also can't find the money so I'm just telling you now that I can't pay what I owe you it's like okay guys let's take a step back here and I spent the day and the next day there and I called Stefano the CEO of Formula One and said well this is not going to work because nobody's finding sponsorship money it was set up that Liberty would pay one third of the budget the driver one third and the team one third so we had a flooded market of everyone searching for sponsorships some asking for five thousand euros some asking for five hundred thousand euros and it was just so disjointed and obviously no sponsor is going to pay to be in a race car that's racing in front of an empty audience like literally nobody on the grandstand so Stefan will kind of say well what do you want to do about it I said well I need to figure out how how we turn this around into something which which can really have an impact mid to long term and be financially sustainable and I went away and spoke to a lot of people I respect in the industry some that I knew were against Defone Academy I wanted to hear why but I really got a lot of opinion leaders together to figure out okay how could we build something I went to the governing bodies of certain countries and asking them well how many young women are you seeing coming into the sport what are the challenges you face I tried to just bring as much knowledge to the situation and then I went to Stefan when he's his F1 management team and said okay we need to race with F1 and we need to get the 11 F1 teams on board and we need to bring all commercial assets in-house.

24:40So I got the green light and I kind of said to Stephanie, so shall we approach the F1 teams together? I said, no, no, no, you can do that. So obviously I had one at home, but the one at home is my biggest supporter, but also my biggest critic. And he said, well, you know, I can't be the first, so get six on board. You'll have the majority, then I'll have to do it. Great. Great. Thank you for that. Thanks for your help. But I have to say, when I went to see Fred Vasseur, who I'd known for a long time at Ferrari, it was kind of also a little bit his idea because I said, would you consider coming into F1 Academy?

25:21He said, yeah, and we can paint the car red. I said, okay, paint the car red. What about a little Ferrari sticker? But I had Ferrari and then Zac Brown and McLaren was hugely supportive. And then at the time, Christian Horner ran Red Bull. That had the potential to be tricky, given his lack of relationship with my husband. But he was actually very supportive. I had friends at CAA who worked very closely commercially with Red Bull, who had kind of explained why this was such an important project for F1. So suddenly I had four teams. I had got two more on board. and suddenly I had that magic six.

26:03That meant I could count total in. That was seven. The last three, and I don't mention their names in the book because I feel it's not fair in them, were very dubious. So I said to them at one point where just things weren't moving, well, we're going to go ahead without you. Ooh. And they said, well, you're just going to make, you know, you put our backs against the wall, you're going to make us look really bad. Yeah. Maybe you're going to look bad, but that's something you're going to have to live with. so to cut the long story short we started legally getting the documentation together for with the seven teams seven sets of f1 lawyers trying to agree on the same document there was a lot of late nights with the f1 legal team and it was challenging in a way because they were also unknowns they challenged us well how are you going to cope with this and i would have to really sit down with the legal team and say well how do we cope with this because it was uncharted waters how would we set this up that worked for the F1 teams, worked for the promoter, worked for us.

27:01So there was a lot of kind of figuring it out as we went along. But we got to the point where we had a document all seven agreed on. Then the last three, I kind of said, well, you're signing it now because you're not changing it after we've spent three months trying to get where we are. And then suddenly we were at the point where we could announce. And it was also a pinch me moment for me because I wasn't ever hugely confident that we could get it done but we did and I think that was definitely down to a lot of tenacity of refusing to take no for an answer and then I had to go out to the promoters and figure out how we would piece together a calendar that raced alongside F1.

27:44We had some that were hugely supportive from the get-go and surprising maybe for some of you but Saudi Arabia, the first to sign up to say, you know, just seven years ago, women couldn't drive in our country, but we absolutely want to be at the forefront of supporting women's sport. And then one by one, we pieced them together. I won't lie, Stefano did have to call a couple and say, they're coming. There's no way you're going to stop them. But it was in that first, I would say, 18 months, really, really tough because it did feel like I had one other person in the team at that time. We felt like we were a two-woman show just trying to break down doors, and we just refused to take no from an answer.

28:24I was very lucky to have Stefano's support and the support from F1. But then suddenly the tide turned and we got more momentum. I obviously, with the F1 teams on board, had 10 cars covered, but I still had six liveries, so I needed to find six commercial partners. And I remember I woke up on the 1st of January and thought, how am I going to get six sponsors on board by March? And I kind of said to Toto, this is going to be really difficult. And I'll never forget, he said, you'll figure it out. And I hate when people say that because they have this belief that I will somehow figure it out. In that moment, I didn't think I knew how I was going to figure it out.

29:07But I very famously got through a contact, a friend of a friend, to Charlotte Tilbury, the makeup brand. within four minutes of the first conversation i knew we were going to do something became the biggest sports and partnership announcement of that year and suddenly the momentum came everyone talked about that partnership tommy hilfiger someone that had been in the sport a long time i called him and he said i'm with you then suddenly american express and then we had puma and it was just uh a momentum you know the wheels started turning and suddenly it all came together but there were still moments to your point of being a team that has to come up with new solutions it has to find a way it was tough at times because I was navigating something completely new and and it's all very nice to now sit on a stage and say well look where we are now but there were days at the very beginning where it was tough and it didn't look like we were going to turn it around in such a short space of time so thankful that we got there in the end.

30:09Yeah, that was amazing. And there's this little thing called AI going on right now. You may have heard. No, I didn't hear about that. Maybe it may just be a fad like the internet, but it doesn't, you know, everyone in this room is kind of being challenged to think about it in all new ways. And we're really all in uncharted waters, making it up as we go along. So as a leader in that uncharted water area, are there a couple other tidbits you'd share with us as we're all feeling around our way through it? I mean, I feel like I can't compare what I did to what you were doing because the scale is slightly different and you are, I guess, doing something huge in the world right now and it's transforming the way we live.

30:52But certainly I was quite honest when the F1 teams and the legal teams challenged me, well, how are you going to cope with that? I would quite often say, that's a really good question. I don't know yet, but let me go and sit with the people who do know and we're going to figure it out and come back to you with a solution and quite often we would come back and the legal team would say well that works but then we can't have our logo sitting you know things like the garage setup all the F1 teams had to sit next to each other there wasn't going to be walls so how would their logo sit so lots of areas where they really voiced their concerns and we said you're right I get that we don't have the answer right now let us come back to you and figure out a solution it was never the first solution that was acceptable but it was very much okay let's collaborate let's find a way to get to the solution and that did take compromise and certainly there was a couple of occasions where f1 who protects its ip so so carefully had to make concessions because i said we're not f1 we're not a 75 year old brand that's globally recognized and one of the biggest sporting platforms in the world.

32:02We have your logo in our name with F1 Academy, but you can't treat F1 Academy the same as you can treat F1 because we need our logo out there. We can't charge people to show our logo and we need the teams to have the right to use the logo. So lots of firsts also for Formula One, and they had to take a leap of faith to give us the right to use the IP in a way that was very different to how F1 did. But I think that idea of collaboration being honest when you don't have all the answers but figuring out solutions and compromises to get to the end product that is a win-win for everyone and then of course when I was signing the F1 teams it was on a vision F1 Academy wasn't set up to be what it is now so they had to take a leap of faith but I on the other hand said if it doesn't work you can walk away you know I'm not going to bind you to something that if you see after one season is not giving you a return on investment is not the right place for your brand to sit, you can walk away.

33:02So that they never felt that they were being handcuffed to something long term. Of course, all of them have now signed up long term and it worked. But I think that idea of giving them also the flexibility to not be bound to something that wasn't yet proven was important at the very infancy. So good communication, ability to compromise, flexibility. All good things. All good things. You spend a fair amount of time in the book just talking about the relationships you had with your teammates, with your colleagues, with people you support. Got a million questions on all of that. But the one I found just really powerful was what a great partner your husband is and how you guys have gone through the journey together, figuring out the hard things and how he's challenged you.

33:48But share with us a little bit because I think it seems like I didn't see many kids in the room, So maybe folks here don't have partners yet. But tell us a little bit about that journey and how it's benefited you. I'm not going to put you on the spot and ask you who's got a partner or not or who's married or not, because that could be really awkward. Hand half up, hand down. It's complicated. It's complicated. Oh, it's always complicated. I recognize that. No, I think not just for the women in the room, but the men in the room as well. I certainly think one of the biggest factors that not just influences your career, but your life is, of course, who you choose to spend your life with.

34:30And I was, I think, definitely very lucky that Toto met me when I was already racing for Mercedes Benz in German touring cars. So he knew I had this, you know, fighter spirit in me and that I loved racing and I was very competitive. But he was great at not wrapping me in cotton wool. You know, there's the famous story that I put in the book when we arrived at the British Grand Prix. He was obviously running Mercedes F1 and they were going through their dominant years, so hugely successful. And I was going to do the first free practice session for Williams. It was the first time, I think, in 22 years that a woman would be on track on an F1 weekend.

35:06I didn't care about that stat. I just wanted to do a really good job. But we arrived at the track together and I kind of left his side to go to Williams and said, OK, I'll see you later. and he said, well, the next time I see you, you're going to be out tracking an F1 car. I said, yeah. And I could see his face. I thought, here comes the big pep talk. He's going to, you know, dream you up. And he looked at me and he said, don't be shit.

35:33Talk about pep talk, words of encouragement. And in that moment, I thought, don't be shit. I will show you. I will not be shit. so I think you know that is his Austrian humor as well but he never wrapped me in cotton wool because he knew how tough racing is and that you had to be good enough and even in the business world now he you know he wasn't the first to sign up for F1 Academy so when you got six then I'm on board but you've got to figure that out and he's great at challenging me but also very much inspiring me and he was someone that he is someone that as much as he's my biggest critic he's at the same time my biggest supporter and I do think it's so valuable to have that by your side because certainly for me there had been tough times when I became a mother.