A Definitive 5 For '25. These Things Will Happen. We Hope.

0:10Hello friends and thanks for tuning into taste radio the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. I'm Ray Lateef, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and I'm here with my co-host for this episode, John Craven and Mike Schneider. Here from the frozen tundra of Boston, where I believe it's nine degrees outside and it feels like it's negative one because of the wind chill. That's nine Fahrenheit. Yes, nine Fahrenheit. Exactly. Yes. For our UK listeners, that's wicked cold. I think they're pretty aware that we're talking about Fahrenheit here. But yeah, as we enter the end of the year.

0:48I can expect that we will have even colder weather, but hell, that's what we get when we live in Boston. Perhaps we'll consider half a year in West LA instead of just a week and a half. I think that's something that I would love to see in 2025. John Craven, what do you think? I would opt out for that one personally. Why's that? I don't know. It's a little, it's kind of like, you know, being in New York City for too long. It's just not for me. It's not chill. Boston's your home. I mean, I live in the Burbs, but I could be in San Diego for half a year. I love LA, but once I have to drive around too much, I'm like, no, I don't live in LA.

1:30Okay. I can only eat at Juista so many times. So 10 out of 10 days that you're there, you can eat at Juista? Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and some of those days I eat at Jelena and shop at Juiceda Goods or Market or whatever. It's totally kidding. But anyway. Well, I mentioned hope because, you know, a lot of folks are doing predictions at the end of the year about what's going to come in 2025? What's in my crystal ball? What am I thinking that we need to have happen to have a successful industry or brand? And I want to take a slightly different tack. Is it because you have no hope for Manchester United even in 2025?

2:13It's just, you know, the funny thing about it, I'm just going to quick tangent here. I just want to, it's every Arsenal supporter can't just focus on their own team and say, oh, I'm happy we're doing somewhat well, but we'll never win a trophy. And instead have to always go after the Manchester United fans. I have a lot of respect for Manchester United, and I like playing against a good Manchester United better than I like playing against a bad one, so I hope they do well in 2025. And I hope that your charity shields are nice and polished so that everyone who goes to Emirates can see them in the glass cases.

2:54And our FA Cups and our gold trophy. All right. What I wanted to talk about today are five things that we hope to see in food and beverage in 2025. So not necessarily here's what's going to happen, here's what we think is going to happen just a five for 25 about what we really would love to see food and beverage companies do what we'd love to see perhaps regulators do and what would perhaps love to see in terms of trends that would improve our industry that we love so much i will start and i'll start with something that's relatively benign but something that we need more of and I would love to see more collaborations between upstart brands.

3:37Obviously, we've seen Fly by Jing lead the way with this. Fly by Jing has done collaborations with everyone from Fish Wife to Little Sesame to Daily Crunch to even bigger legacy brands like Lundberg Family Farms. I have my hand here. A Chili Crisp Rice that was launched by Lundberg Family Farms earlier this here it comes in a pouch ready in 90 seconds you put them in the microwave you can also put it into this uh put it into a stove top pan and instead of having not calling Ludberg family farms rice bland but you know bland rice in general you have this amazing delicious meal in 90 seconds i love this uh you know instead of adding your own sriracha to hummus you have a great collaboration between Little Sesame and Fly by Jing where it's an enhanced flavor.

4:30You see that there are two brands involved in this product and you learn more about both. So, you know, we've also seen this with Graza. Graza did that olive oil martini with Ouroboros. They collaborated with Rind on a granola. You know, certainly I'm leaving out a bunch of brands that have done some amazing collaborations. Maybe you guys can name a few. But I think the more we see smaller brands prop each other up and work together the better off we're going to be fair yeah i mean you know we've seen this at high levels like i wouldn't necessarily call them collaborations or more licensed brands that we see in energy drinks c4 well yeah those are those are licensing deals right those are like really those are not collaborations ghost as well ghost for sure you know but those are licensing deals i would love to see more just brands work together i think one of the things that we've seen is brands helping brands.

5:25You saw when there was the great chili crunch debacle of 2024 that brands jumped in to help one another. And I think we're seeing that, particularly a lot of cultural brands, bonding together to help one another grow. And that's how categories are built. So collaboration is great, but also just being together, having common goals and understanding how to help one another has been just a phenomenal thing that we've seen a lot of in 2023 and 2024. And I'm hoping that brands will double down on that in 2025. That's a good point, Mike. I like that. Brands helping brands, I think, is the common theme here.

6:07Brands helping brands, founders helping founders, people helping people in the industry is one of the reasons that I came into this industry in the first place. didn't see as much of that in tech as I see in food and beverage not that tech doesn't have you know people who help each other but it's a different kind of it's just a different kind of feel for me and that's one of the reasons I love food and beverage I want to help you right now Mike how by noting that your second button down is unbuttoned missing is missing is it missing it's missing oh okay that's exciting I thought you were going to superman out of your shirt there and rip it over yeah it's missing no oh the second one's unbuttoned and the third one's missing okay having some too much detail for a podcast too much detail but we'll keep going all right john craven i know you have some hopes and dreams for 2025 what's yours well i didn't know it was supposed to be five things but i i came up with three things okay um the first thing i would really hope for or like is to see some sort of meaningful more permanent direction for the cannabis regulation.

7:12Since I think, you know, that category as a whole has a lot of great products, a lot of great entrepreneurs in it who I feel like at this point just deserve some path forward that, you know, hopefully is reasonable, has, I don't know, age restrictions, some common sense guidelines and we can just move forward. I mean, I think it represents a massive opportunity for the CPG industry for growth and one that, again, would be nice to just have that on a path that, you know, everyone feels good about. I think the second thing I'd like to see are some more deals. I mean, we had some pretty good ones.

7:53We haven't yet had those mega, mega deals that we've talked about on here, but I feel like they're going to be coming. There's going to be some more in 2025. And, you know, I think that will be, again, well-deserved for many of the brands and people behind them who've, you know, built some pretty impressive stuff these past couple of years. And it also will help out the next generation because it gives confidence for investors and the people who put the money behind these brands that, you know, there is a positive outcome. And I guess last, last but not least, I feel like we're, you know, we've been at a point on the beverage side of things where there's been a lot of kind of blurring of lines and, you know, categories converging.

8:39And I think seeing a lot of new ideas get tried out that don't yet have sort of like maybe meaningful or, or I don't know, consistent revenue, let's say some of the like na cocktails for example and you know it'd just be nice to see some meaningful progress on that front too or you know consumers sort of let these brands know like really what they want and you know what they're going to get behind i think you know that's something that we need to get to maybe it won't be in 2025 but you know in the next probably two three years i think there's again a lot of opportunity in the na and and you know whatnot so yeah just feel like would really love to see some progress on that isn't that going to require buy-in from the big alcohol retailers though so you go into a total wine you go into a bevmo and not only do you see alcoholic beverage options but you see bigger more vibrant and visible spaces for na i mean i think it's a little bit of the old chicken and the egg sort of situation of like you know you can't get to what i'm talking about without buying from the retailers, but the retailers aren't going to buy in unless you have some sort of clarity from consumers of, again, what they're going to buy into, right?

9:57And I think there's also sort of the on-premise factor for these products too, which now that we're not in the COVID era, people are going out to restaurants and bars again. Maybe there's some opportunity for a brand to break out that way, much the same way that spirits brands used to use that as a place to break out. So we'll see. I also think that if there is a legacy established player that comes out with an NA option that is actually close to or very, very close to the quote unquote real thing, that would also help move the needle. We've seen this in beer for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think to To some extent, yes, it is also something that would benefit from continued innovation or product development, be it from a startup or from one of the big, you know, liquor brands who, to your point, I mean, you look at something like a Guinness Zero, right?

10:55And I think if someone could truly do that on the spirits front, yeah, that would be a game changer. I'm not totally sure that we're going to get there, but, you know, I think there's, again, I think there's a lot of stuff out there that's already in the market. It's just sort of a, you know, question of which ones are really going to go big. Yeah. I mean, we have seen, I'm forgetting which gin brand it was, but there is a gin brand out there, a well-known one. Again, I'm forgetting. I think it's Tangeray, actually. I think it is Tangeray. Tangeray that has a zero-proof product. And I think gin is probably the easiest place to start because, again, most of the time, juniper berry is that predominant flavor.

11:31Easier flavor to replicate, for sure. For sure, for sure. All right, Mike, we've heard four hopes and dreams, three for Mr. Craven, one for me. What do you got? I only have one wish, Ray. And that's for material change in the way that institutional investment is delved out. we still are at 1-2 % of money going to women-founded, black-founded, AAPI, mean-owned businesses. Anyone who's starting at a different starting line than the ones who are getting most of the institutional investment, I want that conversation to become a hell of a lot easier for them in 2025. That's my wish. I mean, I think that's a wish that everyone has had for some time.

12:14I think the question is why? Why is it happening at such a turtle-like pace? Why is it going backwards in some ways? What do we need to do to make it top of mind for the industry, to make it a priority for the industry? Who do we need to advocate for specifically to make it such that it's clear that we're doing a bad job in that regard? It's not an easy question to answer, Ray. Part of it is, is that people give money to people like them and the people who have the money aren't necessarily like the founders that are asking for money. So we need more success in the industry for the kinds of businesses that I just talked about first.

13:05And then we need people to just be more open-minded about the conversations that they're having and probably to network a bit more outside of their general friends and family networks that people tend to network in. So it's definitely a complicated issue that, you know, that's why I wished for a change because you need a genie to make the kind of change that I'd like to see happen overnight. but we'll have to keep just making people aware and trying to do our best to help people get into more meetings. And we have to keep the problem top of mind for the people who are investing because unfortunately I don't have my own fund.

13:52You do have a podcast though. I do. I have a platform to speak on but we just have to continue to call people out or ask the question. Why don't we lead every episode of Taste Radio in 2025 with 1.7 % of venture capital funding goes to women-led brands, women-led CPG companies. If you want to do that as part of your, hello, thanks for joining us on Taste Radio. Remember, we're at 1.7%. I mean, that will at least get people to either turn off the podcast or have that top of mind. I don't know what would happen there, Ray. And I don't think that's going to necessarily solve the problem. It will bring awareness to the problem.

14:39Awareness and action are two different things, though. For sure. I think awareness is important, though, because I don't know how many people know that that is the number. It used to be 2%. It actually went down to 1.7. And it's a real problem. Everyone talks about it, but you're right. The action is lacking, to say the least. So good, good hope, Mike. And I hope the same. It's not like the businesses aren't out there. There are great businesses that, you know, when investors look at them, they'll say, well, this needs more, more help than other businesses or whatnot. I mean, like, that's what they're coming to you for.

15:16They come to you with a good idea. And, you know, you're the kind of investor who can help a business. You can open doors. You can, I think we have to be a little bit more patient and learn how to teach too. so you know when a business doesn't check all of your boxes you maybe tend to move on but maybe maybe change your boxes oh i like that i like that all right i said we'd have five i think i have a bonus one here okay and uh i just i i want to be very very clear about this and so i wrote a bunched down. As I mentioned, this is something where clarity is quite important. This has nothing to do with the recent election or who's in charge of the federal government next year.

16:02We've talked about this in past episodes. My hope is that the FDA finally takes action on the use of artificial ingredients, food, and beverage. We know there are alternatives. We know this because if you go to Europe, packaged foods do not contain these ingredients. And yet, they look the same, they taste the same, the texture is the same. Upstart food brands have already led the way. Big food companies, however, continue to incorporate artificial ingredients into their food and drinks. Now, food scientists could come back and say, well, there's plenty of evidence that artificial ingredients pose no risk to consumers.

16:39Okay, fine. Does that mean we shouldn't look for natural options when formulating recipes. Now, conglomerates of the world, shouldn't you be focusing on natural formulations first and foremost? I mean, I think this is something that I have talked about over and over and over on this show. And, you know, we've heard some rumblings that the federal government next year will take action on this. Again, I am not advocating for one group of politicians or another. But I think when it comes to this issue, we should be united. Is there another group at this point? Yeah, right. Just saying. I think we should be united in this regard in saying that natural should lead the way and natural should be the standard, not the backup, especially when it comes to the most consumed food and beverage in this country, which happened to be soda and snacks made by the very largest of conglomerates.

17:40Sydney Karmes-Wayner, who's the founder of French Squirrel, did a piece this morning, a reel on Instagram talking about calories and how calories and health kind of go together. And then she talked about it as one of the biggest propaganda pieces for the U.S. food system, because you talk about low calories and then you plummet in all these cheap artificial ingredients. And so you're saying, hey, it's low-cal, so therefore it's healthy. Not true. Not a whole food. to your point right and i think that's what makes me really love the nosh community in particular where they're you know they're trying to put change the food system in it's a really hard food system to change but it is possible to have better food just look at america's hat canada they have a better food system just call just call canada america's hat yeah america's hat Oh, geez.

18:34I'd never heard that before. You never heard that. Or we just went to London. The food there, I ate a lot of the same kinds of foods. It's just better. You feel better when you eat there. You're not eating all those artificial ingredients. And I don't know, maybe it's also just we were there and it's a great vibe and all that stuff. But just easier to put good stuff inside of you, which is what everybody wants to do on a daily basis. You have to eat. Yeah, absolutely. And I think this goes back to your last point where awareness and advocacy go hand in hand. And we do need to put pressure on the big food companies to do better.

19:20We do need to, I mean, I think people have been doing this and it hasn't been heard. We do need to put pressure on the federal government to take a closer look at why there is such a disparity in standards and regulations between Western countries like the United States, like Great Britain, like France, like Germany. Why these countries seem to know more than we do when it comes to including artificial ingredients in our food. How does your lot in life determine how good your food is? That's crazy, man. Like, that's crazy that the quality of your food is determined by how much money you make. Yeah, I mean, if you look at this from a really global perspective, I mean, that is a problem that we need to look at as human beings.

20:09But if you look at it from a global perspective, in other countries some of the best food is just the pedestrian food right the peasant food you could call it like you're getting great food but we don't have that in the u.s because americans don't consider themselves peasants we're more than that sir all right you know what i mean it's not it's a it's a it's a category of food but it's like one of the best categories of food too Like the kind of food that everybody eats is often the best food. Ask Anthony Bourdain. Quick break. If this episode has you thinking about what's next in food and beverage, explore BevNet and Nosh Insider, our subscription platform with deeper insights from the BevNet team.

20:56Visit tasteradio.com slash insider to learn more.

21:02Well, we have a few products. I know we're close to the end of our show here, but I definitely want to highlight a few things that were sent to us over the past week here. John, you have... What is that? Is that a box of hosts? H-O-S-T-E? The brand that participated or one of the brands that participated in our cocktail showdown? Yes. That's a beautiful box. Perfect Manhattan. Have you had this yet? I have not. I have it all boxed up for a special occasion, which unfortunately is not hanging out with you guys recording a podcast. Damn! But yes, they sent a bottle of their perfect Manhattan as well as their old fashioned.

21:45I've tried the old fashioned. Gold fashioned. I have you for correcting me. It is very, very delicious. That is a perfect looking box for that product. It is, it looks really high end. So we should be clear. You can tell what it is from here just by, just by, you know, just when you get, when you lay eyes on it, you know that has to be. Do you know what a perfect Manhattan is? uh let me give you a shot at explaining what a perfect manhattan is before you do that i want to explain what host is host is a maker uh large format cocktails ready to serve is what they call them they come in 750 milliliter bottles they're made with very high quality liquor and ingredients and they come in beautifully packaged dare i say giftable yeah uh bottles and boxes high-end whiskey yes high-end whiskey look in this box when they sampled at the cocktail shoot on they sampled their gold fashion which is an old-fashioned but made with very high quality ingredients and spirits and they also sampled their mezcal negroni also equally impressive so this perfect Manhattan is what John Craven well a perfect Manhattan ray I thought you would know this well it's made with rye I assume yes that's not what it makes it the perfect manette Okay, what makes it perfect?

23:00It is a split of sweet and dry vermouth. It's perfect for that. Oh, wow. I never knew that. Yeah, which if you have not tried that, listener, and you like a Manhattan. Did you say listener? We have more than one listener. No, I've looked at our stats and there's only one out there. He's talking straight to the listener. Apparently, they're also a Tottenham supporter too. So anyway. You said dear listener. Yes. Dear listener. but yes if you are so inclined to have a Manhattan over the holiday or holidays a perfect Manhattan is a good choice after the last match any Tottenham supporter should have a couple of those I would wholeheartedly agree because Host makes some great products and kudos to them for sending us their perfect Manhattan did they send us more than one?

23:45no but I could maybe pour you a little off darn 6-3 to Liverpool Tottenham I want you to hold on to that and just please give us the update on the next episode. I saw these upstairs. Is this a new brand? It's Dandy's. No, no, no, no. Not a new brand. No, we've had Dandy's. I've never heard of Dandy's. So Dandy's is apparently a maker of vegan marshmallows. I'm assuming you just don't buy marshmallows like ever because if you did and you shop at Whole Foods, this is basically the brand. Okay. And all of their marshmallows are vegan, which just means they're not made with gelatin. And how about this?

24:24At the bottom of this package of mini vegan marshmallows that are vanilla flavored, it says no artificial flavors or colors, no corn syrup, and no gelatin. Well done, dandies. They do come in a variety of formats. There's a peppermint flavored vegan marshmallow, which comes in a smaller package than this vanilla one. They actually have fluff, which I guess you can't call fluff because it's probably trademarked, but they have a marshmallow cream that's also vegan. Well done. This looks really good. and I love the fact that the only ingredient on here that might give me pause is carrageenan, but I'm not going to complain about that.

25:01There's like seven ingredients in this bag of vegan vanilla-flavored marshmallows. All right, before we wrap up here, I want to give Mike a holiday gift, which is he said long ago that he wanted to have a Twinkie fight, so I want to give him a Twinkie fight. There you go, Mike. There you go, Mike. Yay. Twinkie pie. Oh, you're bad at this. You hadn't even hit me once. I mean. Ow. The irony of you having a box of Twinkies after your rant of five minutes ago is pretty good. That's what they're best for, though. Hostess sent us these a while back, and I never ate them, obviously. And I figured this might be the best use for them.

25:42Oh, it's the mystery flavor. It's the mystery flavor that we talked about a while ago. That is what they're best for. Not eating. That's good. Tossing Twinkies. All right. I was plinking myself this whole episode I just wanted to shout out to Max and Luke two of the best people in the industry if you have a chance to meet those guys just really really great people thanks for everything you do and thanks for the plink absolutely and speaking of great people also shout out to the founders of Happy Pop okay good people that tangerine dream looks really good Dustin and Maya thanks for the tangerine dream love it and thanks to our dear listeners we love you guys so much we really appreciate you tuning in every week we're excited for 2025 we're excited to see you at all the upcoming trade shows as well as our events please definitely stay in touch that's how we know what's going on with you and your brands send us a note send our editorial team a note i always say it's really difficult to follow the 500 active beverage brands in the States, the probably 2 ,000, 2 ,500 active food brands in the United States.

26:48It's really important for you to stay in touch with us and for us to stay in touch with you. And that happens if there's some back and forth constantly during the year. So please let us know how you're doing. Happy holidays to all. We'll see you next year. That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNet.com Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cratchy. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt. And our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smirlinski. And our designer is Amanda Huang.

27:24Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. check us out on instagram our handle is bevnet taste radio as always for questions comments ideas for future podcasts please send us an email to ask at taste radio.com on behalf of the entire taste radio team thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next time