Billions In The Can, Tallow In The Fryer. But Who's Buying?

0:10Hello friends and thanks for tuning in to taste radio the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. I'm Ray Lateef, the editor and producer of Taste Radio. And with my co-host for this episode, John Craven, Jackie Brugliera, and Mike Schneider. We're recording this on August 12th, but our Chicago meetup is on the 14th. And our expectation is that everything went well. There you go. Yeah. Thanks to everyone who showed up and is listening right now, as you should be after an event like that. Just want to note, as always, we have more meetups coming up in the following months.

0:47September 16th in San Diego at the West Coast branch of BevNet. In San Francisco in the Dogpatch neighborhood. Two days later on September 18th. And in London on October 2nd at the offices of Trip in Notting Hill. Notting Hill. So much travel. So much fun. Yeah. So much networking. So much going on. And I do want to note that we're still looking for a handful, a handful of select partners that would like to join us and help us put these events on. Because guess what? As much as we love to put on free events, it costs money to do so. So companies out there that would like to help us out and perhaps participate in a live interview at these events, have your logo featured in everything related to the events.

1:39that includes social media assets, banners, etc. Emails. Just let us know. Ask at tastradio.com. You can also send me an email to ourlatif.com. For ourlatif. Should we maybe mention the other events we're putting on after that while we're talking about events? We should. Let's do it. Yeah. I mean, let's just... Only free events. There are only Taste Radio events. There are no other events that exist. If you want to know if there is an event in your area, just do tastradio.com slash your city and it'll pop up or it won't. I mean, forget Mike's bad advice. tastradio.com forward slash meetups has all the places we're going.

2:20Not backslash? Whatever. I mean, you want to use a backslash on your computer and knock yourself out forward slash. Before we mention the other events, I do want to note, we've had a really, really great response to the announcement of these events, the ones that we're holding this year. And I'm getting emails weekly, if not daily from folks who are saying, hey, you should hold an event here in this city or that city, or we've got a great event space. Keep those emails coming because we are planning our 2026 calendar. That's right. And we're thinking about cities where we're going to hold our next meetups.

2:51And it seems like we've got a good list of places to go. So I'm excited. Nice. Yeah. What's up, Mike? You were about to stop me. I was just going to encourage people. Your arm out all the way was like, stop. Almost grabbed my microphone. You've got San Diego, or as you would say, San Diego. San Diego's coming up. San Francisco's coming up. London's coming up. Did I not say all that? You did. I just want to say it again. Mike's doing the cliff notes. He's in his own little world. Let's talk about those other events. No, so I am thoroughly excited, as always, for BevNet Live in Los Angeles. The 7th and 9th of December is going to be, I feel like, one of the biggest things we've ever done in BevNet history.

3:32Because the New York event, if there was any indication, I mean, come on. That was an incredible event. Just so all of you know, it's going to be the 7th, 8th, and 9th, not the 7th and the 9th. Did I say the 7th through the 9th? We're skipping over it. I think you said the 7th and 9th. Yeah, we're skipping a date. We'll do the 8th. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. It's going to be big. 7th through the 9th. Mark your calendars. How about the other two events, Ray? Nosh Live is happening on December 4th and 5th. And of course, our wonderful beer-centric event, Brewbound Live, is happening on December 10th and 11th of this year.

4:07So Brewbound Live, just to be clear, you know, it's not just about beer. Beer and beyond. Beer and beyond. We're talking about seltzers, hard seltzers, that is, cider. RTDs. RTD cocktails, malternatives. What do they call them? FMBs? Sure. Flavored malt beverages. Probably talk a little about cannabis. Craft beers, macro beers, cannabis, NA beers. All kinds of stuff. I mean, it really is. I feel like BrewBound is one of the most underrated events I've ever been to. Because I think people don't realize the amount of information, the amount of networking, the amount of just incredible work that the editorial team does in hosting this event.

4:42If you haven't been to BrewBound Live and you're considering, just do it. Especially because it comes right after BevNet Live. I mean, we've already got some great people signed up. I mean, for all three events. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know Do we have that on the website yet? I mean, you're coming You're going to the events, right, John? So, I mean You know That's like part of the list Of incredible people, right? Gotta check my schedule Check your schedule Check my schedule Make sure Pack a toothbrush Looks like I'm free Do you use, like, the regular toothbrush Or do you use, like, the Sonicare stuff?

5:11I never wanted to bring the Sonicare stuff What if it starts buzzing? What if it starts buzzing in your bag? And then all of a sudden They gotta, you know Oh, goodness The TSA's gonna be like Hey, what's going on here? That's why you don't use an electric toothbrush? No, no Or you don't travel with one His reason is he needs 14 blazers, at least twice the number of blue shirts. What else am I forgetting? Oh, probably... Razors. 3 ,000 Listerine strips. Razors is kind of a weird thing to say. Listerine strips. Not razors. Don't forget the Listerine strips. The whole suitcase. They do not sell those in California.

5:39They sure don't. Got to bring them. Just in case. Canned cocktails. Lots of canned cocktails. Canned cocktails. Yeah. Love canned cocktails. Smoking jackets for the evening. You definitely can bring those on the plane. No, you can. You can bring the small ones. The tip top. I believe it. You just can't drink them on the plane. Yeah. I mean, I can't bring on the down low. I can't bring a full can of Lake Hour cocktails, canned cocktails. Lake Hour is a brand of canned cocktails. They include vodka and tequila seltzers. Well, I mean, we're kind of splitting hairs here between what they are and what they're called.

6:06Canned cocktails are seltzers. Pro tip for traveling with those. You just order a cranberry juice, then you go dump it in the lavatory and refill it with a Tigroni. Okay. Well, I mentioned... Never done that for the rest. I mentioned Lake Hour because this week we featured an interview with the founders of the brand, Wyatt Russell. You probably know him if you're a Marvel fan as U.S. agent in the film Thunderbolts and other Marvel movies upcoming. Son of Kurt Russell and? Goldie Hawn. There you go. There you go. Also, producer Richard Peet is a co-founder of Lake Hour. I sat down with both gentlemen for a really, really fun conversation, an eye-opening one, and one that I didn't expect.

6:44I'll just say that. So take a listen. It's available everywhere. You can listen to Taste Radio. That includes Apple Podcasts and Spotify. But just going back to... And please leave a review. Please leave a review. And just going back to our events in December, we're going to be having a lot of Taste Radio content at the events. If you want to be interviewed as part of our Taste Radio studio, you got to come and you got to let us know so we can get you on the schedule. All right. In the news this week, I've talked about this in the podcast. I'm not a regular consumer of energy drinks. I mean, it's never really did a lot for me.

7:20I'm a coffee kind of guy. I don't know what it is. Also, in fairness, we're drowning in energy drinks here. I'm not sure that's the reason I don't drink them. Well, I'm saying you've sampled probably many over the years. This is true. This is true. I've probably had my fill for this in my life. But I mention this because it seems like demand and sales for energy drinks is just through the roof. It's nonstop. Case in point, Monster. It was announced this week that Monster hit the$2 billion milestone in Q2. In other words, it did$2 billion in quarterly net sales in Q2 for the first time in the company's history, reporting an 11.1 year-over-year increase from 2024.

8:05Our dear colleague Brad Avery wrote about this story. $2 billion and a quarter. Okay, so that's one thing. Marty Caballero talked about the amount of demand and sales growth that we're seeing for energy drinks in convenience stores. And Celsius, Celsius, which acquired Alani New earlier this year, reported that sales were up 84 % in Q2. Who's buying all this stuff? I'm trying to figure this out. Not you, obviously. Not me. I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Maybe in this area, in the Northeast, I just don't see a lot of people drinking energy drinks. A lot of junk and donuts, Starbucks, what have you.

8:43I think that comment in particular just shows also like how ubiquitous they are. They're not really products that at this point like stand out. Like if you do look around and really look at what people have, you will see a lot of energy drinks. If I stop and smell the roses is what you're saying? Yeah, sort of. And yeah, I mean, there's also, let's not forget, you're like, where's all this, these dollars coming from? I mean, there was this kind of pretty big energy drink brand that just nuked itself. And those dollars had to go somewhere. Okay. I mean, obviously you're referring to Bang. Maybe.

9:20Am I? Perhaps. No comment. So that's fair. But that would assume that we're still just getting the same demand. But it seems like the demand is rising. Sales are rising. I mean, look, the energy drink category was born essentially from the CSD category. I mean, they are CSDs, carbonated soft drink sodas with functional ingredients, right? And as you looked at the shift in consumer tastes over the past 20 years, like there's been a lot of runway for functional beverages in the energy drink category is the main beneficiary of that. And the other thing that's always been true of that category is there are kind of the stalwarts of Red Bull, Monster, I don't know, the handful of others, Celsius, et cetera, that have had high sales.

10:07But there's a lot of smaller brands that still make up a chunk of the category that I feel like is always kind of up for disruption. So I don't know. I mean, it doesn't seem like that category is close to running out of steam, to be honest. And I think, you know, Monster is a great example of like, they've done a great job of pushing energy into like all these other categories, you know, Java Monster is like one of the biggest RTD coffee brands. Yeah, I think energy is obviously always been a thing. People drink coffee every day. I think people are looking for cleaner, better for you options. They're looking for maybe not a crash.

10:43So they're looking for something that maybe has L-theanine or other adaptogens in it. And there's a bunch of energy drinks that are doing a really good job with their target market. Gorgie, for example, is really focused on women and beauty. And Alani Nu is also focused more so on women. And there's energy drinks for gamers. There's like an energy drink for anyone. And they're being drank throughout the day, too. So it's not just in the morning. Is there an energy drink for dog walkers on Saturdays? Probably. There probably is. No, no. See, the thing is, Jackie's spot on. I think what's interesting is that the niche is even working in energy.

11:24We're finding pockets of space where brands can see and develop and cultivate a new consumer base based on what their lifestyles and needs. That's just mature launching of a beverage, though. I mean, if you focus on too many markets when you start, you're going to run out of marketing dollars. So what we're seeing is companies that are coming into the space focused on gaining a niche, messaging around a niche, because that's what somebody wisely advised them to do so. Well, I think it also, as much as that is true, it's also historically been a bit of a ruse in that, for example, there have been countless attempts to launch healthy energy drink, which seems to be a thing that never worked.

12:09Never really. Well, no, look, I mean, I think there are niche ideas. And then obviously anyone who's starting with a niche idea hopes that their niche idea becomes a mainstream idea. And that's one that really has struggled as a company gets a little bit of a beachhead as a better for you energy drink to step on the gas and have it go mainstream. And I think that's, I mean, it's obviously a challenge with almost every CPG category. It's kind of like, is your niche like a path to mainstream or is it just one that kind of puts you in a nice little niche that you're going to have to protect? Yeah.

12:46And that is the other key. It's like once you have established your niche and you figure out what the ceiling of said niche is, are you at the ceiling? Do you pump more dollars into marketing against that niche or do you have to expand your messaging at that point? And that's a good strategy. And I think it's all like we've talked about incremental innovation. Like Celsius might not be the best thing for you, but it feels better than a Red Bull. And it has some other functional ingredients in there that moves you beyond just drinking a Red Bull. Jackie just threw down the gauntlet right there.

13:15You see that? She's like, just smacked Red Bull. Celsius, better than Red Bull. That's just Jackie's opinion, obviously. Again, yeah, it's one of those. Anyway. Red Bull just flicking Jackie away. well jackie have you seen our race cars well i mean one thing i i bring this up because how many new energy drink brands do we see come to market every year how many new brands do we have send us samples and i would say it's probably the over-under is like 100 every year i mean it's quite a bit and i would say 90 it's a high percentage i don't i'm not gonna i'm not gonna say no it's a high percentage of them that are not going to be back in year two yeah but that's that's true That's true of everything.

13:59I do want to just... But you're also seeing brands that have energy as a benefit that aren't positioning themselves as energy drinks. For instance, like some of these tea beverages that we've seen coming out recently. They're not overtly saying, hey, we're an energy drink. They're positioning themselves as a tea. They have caffeine. That is an energy drink. But they know that trying to position themselves as a better-for-you energy drink is going to put them into a niche spot. So they're trying to take on the tea category. Right. But I do want to kind of poll the group here and see if we can just identify.

14:30And I know this is a tough thing to do because it's pretty subjective. But just I try to identify where there might be some white space. And, John, I want to point out that you contributed to an article on ESPN about Throw In Sport Coffee, the coffee brand that's backed by NFL star Patrick Mahomes and launched and developed by Mike Fideli, who has a ton of experience in history, vitamin water, body armor. So you've got to plug your episode with him. What's that? So you got to plug episode. What number is it? Of course. Well, it was in 2024. It's hard to miss. Just type in Patrick Mahomes into the search bar.

15:01You'll find it. I mean, you had some comments in that article about what it takes to differentiate in that category and how they can stand out. Certainly, if you have Patrick Mahomes on your side, it goes a long way. But what if you don't have a celebrity? I mean, how do you stand out in a really crowded category like energy? Well, I mean, if there were a direct answer to that. Well, I'm just pulling. I'm just saying I said it was subjective. It would be a pretty easy CPG world. There's four people. There's four opinions here. Yeah, look, I don't know the answer to that. I think it's one of those things that if you look at the brands that have been successful, Alani, Ghost, C4, I think these brands that, to be honest, in their early days, no one was like, oh my God, this is 100 % going to blow up, but they did.

15:41I think it is, you know, the classic stuff we've talked about before. It's like finding that niche, being just cutthroat, meticulous, never giving up and, you know, figuring out an execution strategy that works. And getting all that stuff to line up is, it's pretty hard. And, you know, the energy drink category is one that, unlike other categories where maybe you have one big player that you're after, it's got a whole pile of them. it's a pretty cutthroat like you need to be well capitalized to go after it that means you have to have a lot of money yes i know i mean you should it's true you should it's true you know i think there are other categories that are maybe a little more uh i don't know forgiving but you know where the next one comes from that's that's a great question i mean i think ultimately it's what sort of base of consumers align with this category and don't really have a brand that speaks to them I mean, just to dumb it down, make it sound way, way, way easier than it is.

16:40Well, I mean, in my opinion, I think the growth is going to continue to come from zero sugar and really, really low calorie drinks. So people are really conscious about consuming calories and sugar in liquid form. And I think in energy, if you want the function, why would you want the calories and sugar? so I think that's why Bang I mean aside from their branding and aside from the way they marketed themselves they always leaned on that zero sugar well they did it also had like a lot more caffeine than the mainstream brands too so I mean that's a lever that's worked for some of the other successful brands is like higher caffeine functional performance sort of ingredients but I think that sort of market seems saturated at this point.

17:24Yeah. Yeah. I think caffeine source and maybe the amount of caffeine, like where's the energy source coming from? Like for example, so many people have been going down the green tea route and the matcha route, trying to not have the jitters and have more sustained energy over time. So I think people might be focusing more on that. I personally am focusing more on that. And that's something that you could drink consistently throughout the day. So if you want someone to drink more than one, that might be, you know, a better option for you rather than just cracking yourself out with like 250 milligrams of caffeine in one go.

18:01That's a really, really good point. I love that because your remodere, I had not typically been a Guayaquil consumer. They obviously have since changed their name to your remodere. But at BevNet Live in New York City, I felt so good drinking that product because the caffeine didn't crack you out. It actually gave you more focus or gave me more focus than I ever imagined I would have. And so I think that kind of balance, which is energy plus focus, can really also go a long way and energy and focus coming from a natural source. Also, your celebrity isn't your strategy. So to the points here, the product first has to be a good product because you can put any celebrity on it.

18:40And if people don't like the product, they're just going to, you know, at the end of the day, not continuously use the product. So you have to be thoughtful about that first, which is what Jonathan Ralph and Gemma Fear and Ellie Goulding did with their EveryState product. So they created this. What's the name of the brand? EveryState out of UK. So this is a mushroom coffee that has a caffeine version, a non-caffeine version, and a matcha version, which is designed for different states of the day, which is something we've seen tried, you know, for different moods or different times of the day. And they have Ellie Goulding on board, which gets you eyeballs.

19:16But that celebrity needs to be an operator and a continuous push on it and actually use the product. And the product needs to work. So, I don't know. One of the things we've seen about the UK is that they're a lot more thoughtful about what they put into a product when they build something that has like a benefit. They think about the benefit. They don't just like throw a cocktail of mushrooms into something. That's because they actually have an approval system. They actually have an approval system. I wouldn't say they're thoughtful because they want to be thoughtful. They have no choice. I think it's a combination of the two because I think the consumers demand it as well.

19:47But I hear you. It's not thoughtful for thoughtful's sake. It's thoughtful because they have more constraints. And as I like to say, constraints can set you free. You know, blue sky is the enemy of creativity. I like it. I like it. Well, a lot more to discuss on this topic, but I think we've talked it out as much as we can. I think this has been a good conversation. I think it's going to be a helpful conversation for folks who are thinking about entering the space or already in the space. So, you know, appreciate the conversation. Now, this is an interesting conversation that I didn't expect to have in 2025 or maybe any other year of BevNet.

20:23There's a brand called Jesse and Ben's, which I love. Jesse and Ben's is a maker of French fries, house cut fries. You got all the samples at home, right? My freezer has, I'm down to like 11 bags. So sad for you. Yeah, I'm a little upset about that. But anyway, recently, I'm trying to figure out when they came to market. I want to say it was within the last two or three years. And they make French fries with better for you oils, I would guess, for lack of a better word. They have classic sea salt house cut fries made with avocado oil. And they also have a product that's made with grass fed beef tallow.

21:00All right. Got to make the bros happy. I'm not an expert on beef tallow. Who knows what beef tallow is? Just like fat. I do. Sure. Yeah. It's essentially that. It's fat from a cow. Yeah. Rendered fat. Rendered fat. It's not lard because lard comes from a pig. Right. So beef tallow is like the new healthier fat. Healthier, is it? I mean, that's... Did I say healthier? I think you did. Okay, that's... Better for you? I probably should not say healthier, but it's considered to be better. It's a lifestyle choice. Trendy? Trendy. It's definitely trendy. It's within certain communities. No knock on Jesse and Ben's.

21:34They make amazing products. But they recently closed a seven-figure round of investment designed to support its expanded retail footprint. Our dear colleague, Lucas Southard, not Southard, Lucas Southard. Oh, man, that's another one I was mispronouncing like Latif. Yes, exactly. Latif. Oh, sorry. See, I can't even say that. Yeah, covered this story. And there's been a lot of buzz around the brand because they're one of the first to use beef tallow in a consumer packaged brand. brand and really cool looking branding really really good looking yeah i don't know if i've sampled the product maybe at a trade show but would love to you're never gonna get any i know it's at home i'm just i'm just subtly hinting i'm just waiting for it to expire and then i'm gonna bring i love it classic remove yes so uh you know according to this article co-founder and ceo jesse might pronounce his name is spelled k-o-n-i-g i'm gonna say koenig Jesse and Ben's has created a groundswell of interest, particularly in organic social media posts, which has fueled its growth so far.

22:39I can understand that. Why? Because in social media, people talk about eating better and ways to live a healthier lifestyle. And it's French fries. And it's French fries, for sure. But I don't know. Is this, are we going to be talking about beef tallow next year? Uh, probably. I mean, is this part of a fried food revolution? I well there's other ways to consume it without fried food with a spoon in a bowl I mean you could okay but I like this as a concept that you know the core of the product is like I mean if you if someone comes up to your demo or booth at a trade show and is like what's this I don't know everyone knows what a french fries right to basically describe it as a premium french fries is pretty straightforward, right?

23:27Sure. Doesn't need a long explanation. Well, if they're not fried in seed oils, I mean, again, seed oils have been talked about to death on social media and beyond. And people are trying to avoid... That's kind of my point, though, is I think there's also... And debunked by Melissa Urban. It is one of those things, we've talked about this on Taste Radio, but I think, you know, a lot of times if you're championing something different and there's kind of a greater movement that's also championing that, that's perfect. And I think avocado oil has that. Beef tallow is starting to get that. So what they're preaching is pretty easy to understand.

24:02And there's kind of growing market demand for it and beautiful branding. And I assume tasty product that should work pretty well. If only we knew. I know. If only they'd sent us samples. They did send us samples. They sent me samples. They did? I hate the samples. I'm sorry. Ray's hoarding samples? No. I don't want the company to think they didn't send us samples. Come on. No, they emailed me and they said, we're sending samples. Somehow they had my home address and my PO box and my UPS, you know, place where you can pick up your packages. Your doorman's cell phone number. How does that happen?

24:34Doorman's cell phone number. Yes. They had my butler's. The keys to your Ferrari. They had my butler's mother's maiden name. We need a PSA here that it's like sending samples to Ray is like, I don't know, it's like throwing your samples on a black hole. Tickets to. Are we not talking about Jesse and Ben's on the podcast right now? Tickets to your private box at Old Trafford. It's like writing a letter to Santa or something. Anyway. Wait. Santa's always responded to my letters. I've always gotten what I wanted for Christmas. Anyway. Okay. Well, well done to Jesse and Benz. And last thing on this.

25:08Thanks for keeping Ray's freezer stocks. I was speaking with the founder of Brightland Olive Oil. And she's going to be featured. Aishwarya is going to be featured in a future episode of the podcast. and she was talking about how her packaging was sort of the Trojan horse to getting awareness and building education about her brand. Because her packaging is phenomenal. It's so beautiful. It's just gorgeous. It's that white bottle that really stands out on shelf or really anywhere. And I wonder if, you know, French fries are kind of the Trojan horse for beef tallow, right? I mean, again, everyone knows what French fries are.