Bonus Content: An Exit Interview with Naomi Neville of Allagash Brewing

28:57That is who you far and away, number one, need to be appealing to. And that can be tough because look at what that group of people looks like. So you've got to make sure that you are explaining, you know, newer marketing trends to some of the more old guard members of the middle tier in a way that's appealing. Like I remember when Truly was new and Erica Taylor, who was on Truly then and is now in charge of Twisted Tea, had to explain influencers at ABPs. She did a great job, But like it was tough because like these guys had no idea what an influencer was. Right. So you've got a few things. You've got to appease the distributors.

29:39You've got to make sure you've got something that's going to work at retail. And you also need to be talking to consumers at the same time. And a lot of these messages can be different. And that's hard because they all need to ladder up to the same goal. And this is why I was a terrible beer marketer because it's very difficult. And I can't remember how many years ago, but it was Corn Gate, which came out of the Super Bowl. It blew up the last category awareness, you know, unity effort, which Molson Corps pulled out of. And there was a whole, a whole mess and a lawsuit and everything in between.

30:11So I just thought that that was something that, you know, was worth talking about, because there is definitely a relevance issue that, you know, you're bucking the trends on. And it takes those larger companies to sort of do the heavy lifting marketing toward consumers. And I guess, you know, we're talking about chill trains and stuff like that, you know, and will that resonate with the new consumers? It probably has a better chance of resonating with the core, like 55 plus consumers. But I don't know. But I'm just glad that, of course, it's going back into the, you know, backlog of its marketing.

30:51We're going with the train and not the twins. There's going to be a very angry twin out there. Well, fight me in my email. All right, let's play another round of tabbing out. We're going to stick with the Super Bowl commercial theme, at least for this week in the marketing. Anheuser-Busch has released several teaser trailers for its ads. It's going to focus on Bud Light, Michelob Ultra, and Budweiser this year. No other brands. two and a half minutes of ad time, which is supposedly the most of any BevAlk supplier out there. And they're leaning on some big names. And one of the ads features Jason Sudeikis, Ted Lasso himself.

31:32So they are investing a lot. They're pulling in a lot of celebrities. Are you buying another round that Ted Lasso, the Clydesdales, Dan Marino, Lionel Messi, a soccer playing dog and whoever else they or whatever else they dig up in the next few weeks can help AB turn around its image? Or are you tabbing out that these efforts are going to appeal to folks who are sort of digging their heels in? I feel like if there's anybody that can thread the needle between the two Americas, it's probably Ted Lasso, right? Potentially. Yeah, he does have the Southern charm, but with some more kumbaya. I believe the most streamed show last year was Ted Lasso.

32:25I don't know. I'm just so sick of talking about A.B.'s attempts to fix whatever situations it has going on. And I don't think consumers really care as much as we might think they do about these things anymore, like about like Super Bowl ads or marketing, at least on television. It just doesn't seem to stand out as much anymore. and then sponsorships potentially do or collaborations with influencers as we've seen do like those things that can kind of be more of a part of your day-to-day life that you're seeing all the time but i just i don't know i don't think i might be a pessimist about this but i just don't see it having any significant impact and i'm greatly looking forward to when we get to stop talking about it.

33:21I guess I'm over it. Pop quiz. Who was in last year's Bud Light Super Bowl ad? Did they even have one last year? They did. Couldn't tell you. He was a very popular actor at the time. They were on hold. His girlfriend was in the ad. Oh. That guy. What's his name? Miles Teller. And his girlfriend, who honestly, they should have brought that back because Miles Teller's wife, who's in that commercial, is very close friends with Taylor Swift and has been in the box several times at Kansas City games. And they could have totally capitalized on all the momentum that that is getting. And they kind of failed there.

34:06I mean, I think the people who are mad at Bud Light are also probably mad about Taylor Swift. Yes, there's the whole liberal agenda conspiracy going on about that as well. So AB is spending a ton of money and they have to, you know, it'll be interesting to see what happens. I will, you know, Justin, when you named all of these people and also animals who are part of these ads, there was one thing that stood out to me. And I don't know that this is a problem for AB to fix right now, but it felt extremely male. So far, definitely. Yeah. Extremely male, intentionally or not, also during a year when there might be a significant uptick in female watchers at the Super Bowl.

34:54But is Taylor Swift going to make it to the Super Bowl in time from her concert in Japan? I think they've done the math and said yes. We know she's no stranger to private jets, so I think it might happen. Have you guys heard the theory that the whole reason she started dating Travis Kelsey was so that because he had a game at the Jets coming up and it was if she goes to the game when you Google Taylor Swift Jets, that's what you get instead of her private jet. Have you heard this? I did see that. Yeah. Conspiracy. I was going to say, get your flight trackers out. Yeah. Well, and in the same vein, apparently the reason that the Disney movie Frozen is named as such was to get the SEO off being, you know, Walt Disney and his Frozen head.

35:39No way. Yeah. So if you search Disney Frozen, it's not going to be Frozen Disney. Yeah. Wild times. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we'll see. Like, I always enjoy watching Super Bowl commercials more so than watching the actual Super Bowl. I have not watched any football to get a glimpse of Taylor. You know, I went to see her movie. I know what she looks like. I don't need to see her on the TV. But I do ask my husband, have you seen Taylor yet? And he will tell me yes or no. We'll see what happens. I don't know. I mean, AB needed to do something big and it sounds like they're trying, but. I mean, this is what Nick is talking about, right?

36:15It feels so like old school strategy. And I just don't think that works, which is fine. That worked 20 years ago. Right. It definitely is part of the old playbook of injecting humor, leaning on celebrity sports stars. is I haven't thought about Dan Marino since maybe Ace Ventura. I hadn't thought about Ace Ventura. And then it was on a couple of weeks ago. And we watched a little bit. And it was honestly traumatizing. Because it just put me right back in middle school, where every boy in my class was just quoting him nonstop for years. I grew up with dudes who built their whole personality on imitating Ace Ventura.

36:56It was terrible. Wolf. My skin is crawling. So with that, thanks for listening, everyone. Okay, let's get to our featured interview with Allagash Brewing's very own Naomi Neville. Today we're joined by Allagash Director of Sales Naomi Neville, who has recently announced that she'll be moving on from everyone's favorite Maine-based Belgian-inspired craft brewery after 14 years spreading the gospel of Allagash White. Naomi, first of all, it's always lovely to see you. How are you doing, buddy? I'm good, Jess. Always good to see you too. Yeah. So I'm excited for the continuation of your adventures.

37:39But before we started recording this podcast, you and our technical director and audiovisual wizard, Joshua Pratt, were discussing our collective shared history, which long predates my time at BrewBound. So why don't you tell us and our listeners a little bit about the history that Brewbound and Allagash have together. Yeah, it is. It's a long time. We should have asked Josh how many years ago it actually was that this happened. But I guess day one of Brewbound was a, like a bus tour, like a coach. Bunch of people came up from Boston. I believe they went to Harpoon first. Then they came up to Allagash.

38:20Then they went to Shipyard and Gritty McDuff's and then got back on the bus and went back to Boston is how I think it happened. There was a musician on the bus who played, I think, on the bus and then definitely played a couple of songs at Allagash. It was way before we had like a proper tea-stay room. So we had like this basically tiny little closet area with a couple of taps and it was on a Saturday. So we weren't really open. I just came in or a Sunday. I just came in to show them around. And I think, you know, Justin mentioned he has a photograph of me with a big sort of loud Hala microphone thing.

38:54that was because it was a whole the whole bus was packed of people so it's like 40 odd people just me trying to corral everybody around and show them around the brewery and basically yell at them through this like loud healer kind of thing but yeah and I I wanted to give uh Josh's wife a shout out because I still own my brew band coaster look at that nice sport coaster that is made to last because I have used that on a daily basis since Oh, my God. So Josh just sent me a note to say all this went down in March of 2010. To put this in some context, in March of 2010, I was still writing for a newspaper at the Jersey Shore.

39:33Justin was maybe in Kansas City, maybe in Iowa. Yeah, maybe. And Zoe was in middle school. Yeah, I was in seventh grade. it. So we've all come so far, but you know, based on my account, you were also pretty new at Allagash at that time, right? Yeah, I was, if it was March of 2010, I was just about a year in. Okay, wow. I mean, so you've been in Allagash for, you know, 14, 15 years. That's the equivalent of several lifetimes in craft beer. Yes. In that time, Allagash has become a powerhouse. What has the ride been like from your perspective? Because we hear this story about the rise of Allagash from founder Rob Todd's perspective a lot, but I want to hear it from what it's been like from your vantage point.

40:20Okay. Yes. You're probably going to say very similar things to Rob, but when I first started in 2009, I was the first salesperson to start that Allagash hired. Before that, we were using brokerage firms around the country. And so I was the first person in sales. Up until then, Rob would travel around and he would talk to the brokers and work with them all across the country. So I joined on and did half kind of sales analysis with my time and then half sales in Maine, Massachusetts and New Hampshire. When I say sales analysis, this is when distributors used to, I'm going to say really old right now, but they used to fax us depletion reports.

41:05And then we would take these depletion reports and we would basically enter them in Excel spreadsheets to see our trends. So this is, you know, before the advent of VIP IDIG and all the good stuff that we just flip our keys on now. This was very manual entry. And before I got here, it really wasn't happening. So there was just folders, ring binders full of these faxes that I had to go back a few years to try and figure out where our beer was going, where it was being sold, how quickly it was getting sold, and just try and get a handle on what was happening. Because at the time, I think we were in like 26 states and we were spread really, really far and wide without any official sales teams.

41:49You know, our beer was in places it probably shouldn't have been at that time and, you know, places that it was getting old. And at the same time, we couldn't keep up locally with the demand. So I would go out up to Northern Maine, have a really great sales day, come back and like, we don't have a beer. And so, you know, from 2009 to 2011, you know, I was talking with Rob a lot, like we can't keep doing this because we're shorting people where we have the sale, where it could be fresh, where we could support it. But then sending our beer to states where it just wasn't making any sense. And we were paying for the shipping for those places.

42:22So 2009 to 2011, we did start pulling back from territories and in not so scientific way, really. We basically took a pen and drew a line where the Mendoza line of like, if you sell enough, you make it and we'll keep shipping to you. But if you don't, then we'll just part ways for now. The only exception to that was New Hampshire, which actually fell below the line at the time, very far below the line. And it was like, we can't not sell to New Hampshire. You've got to drive through it to get to Massachusetts. So we still sold to them. And that's kind of how we ended up with this, what you might call a pretty bizarre distribution program at the time with California, Illinois, and Maine to Georgia.

43:08So it was definitely not exactly how most people would do it, but we were selling so much in some of these urban markets that we just couldn't pull out of California. We couldn't pull out of Illinois because the brand was really resonating. This is something Rob has talked about is, you know, it was a lesson in going deep rather than going wide. But it still ends up in a unique way, as you pointed out, is there are these major metropolitan areas that you're still selling quite a bit of beer in. I mean, obviously, Santa Monica is one of our favorites. Shea Jay, you know, the draft account there is just invaluable to us.

43:45But talk to us a little bit about, you know, the realization that it was better to go deep than wide at a time where everybody's sort of shotgunning everywhere. Yeah. One of the sort of awakening moments for me was going, we got invited to a Whole Foods event in Austin, Texas. and we didn't have sales reps. So I went down and I did the event and we pulled samples from a distributor at the time there. And it was just old beer, nothing against them, a great wholesaler, but we didn't have the support down there. And we were just one of many brands sat in their warehouse. And I pulled old samples to that event.

44:25You know, we didn't win. It was like a staff tasting event because one reason the beer was really old, but that just like brought it home. Like we're shipping beer to these places and it's sitting and it's getting old. And if we can't keep supplying local markets where it's fresh and people are really it's really resonating, then it just doesn't make financial sense. And, you know, you're probably aware how much shipping costs now back in the day. I mean, it wasn't as expensive, but to just send a truck to somewhere like Texas or Oregon. I mean, it is a considerable cost on top of the beer. And we just couldn't support it.

45:03It's not easy. I remember right, it was like right before COVID shut everything down, but Rob was giving the keynote address at the New England Craft Brew Summit. So like February, March, 2020, and he'd showed a slide and I had gotten those images. I used those images to make a story. And that picture pops up on the internet a lot. It's two side-by-side maps. And then one of them is Allagash's sales map in 2005. So before your time, but distributing to 26 states and only selling 5 ,000 barrels. And then by 2020, which was when Rob made the neighboring map, it was Allagash's current map at the time was maybe 17 states selling 100 ,000 barrels.

45:45So in 2022, according to BA data that I just pulled, Allagash produced almost 120 ,000 barrels sold in 20 states. And some of them have only been added in the last few years. So you talked about retrenching. What was it like to go back to those states that you began to re-add in the last couple of years? What were those conversations with wholesalers like to say like, hey, we want to come back and here's our plan? How did that go? So great question. Thank you. I think which states we've done this in. So Wisconsin happened during the pandemic. We were with a Shein house up there, Beachwood. So we've got a really good relationship with the Shein organization.

46:24so this was a very sort of COVID game time decision of like hey like we need to sell some beer during this you know very tumultuous time where you know 70 % of our business had gone away so we opened that in COVID again it's like don't ever open anything in COVID we also opened Florida in COVID but during the time that we had pulled out and going back in again the distributor that we had had sold or closed, I believe. Quite honestly, that if we were going to go back to a lot of the states that we pulled out of, that would be the case in a lot of them. We were with very small craft distributors that have since, you know, sold to a large one or closed or merged with someone.

47:08So that was a very different experience because that was meeting with distributors and analyzing the market and actually having the freedom to go back with whoever we wanted to in that state. So Wisconsin and then Western New York, we went back in with the Shein Network five, six years ago now. And then Western Pennsylvania, we opened pretty much as COVID happened. We actually hired someone who ended up not coming to the brewery to train for two years because we hired him like two days before the world shut down. And big shout out to Alan. He's awesome. And, you know, it was great when you actually met him in person two years after you actually hired someone.

47:48So yeah, going back in is a mixture because the markets change so much and the distributed networks have changed. Unbelievable. Unbelievably. So, I mean, what's the difference between working with like the Sheeans and Reyeses of the world versus like the smaller craft guys? What's the experience like on both levels? Because I'm sure a few people have had the experience of working with both of them, but what's that been like for you? You know, what do you do with one versus what do you do with the other? yeah it's uh definitely very different even within she and tarea it's very different every distributor has their pros and cons so you go in when you're trying to evaluate a market that you want to go into you go to retailer a they'll rave by one distributor and then you go to retailer b and they'll rave by the next distributor i don't think we've ever gone into a state and it's been unanimously you've got to go with distributor a there is always pros and cons People like their reps.

48:46Sometimes delivery days don't work for them. Minimums don't work for them. So there's all these things to weigh up. Really, when we find that we go from a smaller craft-focused distributor to a bigger one, SKUs are rationalized. You know, it makes sense. They have to be productive. They have to be as efficient as possible. Selling any kind of sort of specialty beer gets a lot harder. That's why your Allagash is changing to a real sort of old school seasonal program next which is different for us, but very much understood within the industry. So it's just a different mindset. They might not be as excited about craft beer and that's, you know, that's your job as a supplier to get them excited, to tell them why they should be selling your beer.

49:33Speaking of SKUs and rationalizing things, not only has Allagash done like the wholesale business a little bit differently in where you distribute, but also innovation a little bit differently. And we've seen that Allagash has been a little bit more hesitant to put out some trendy styles. Like we didn't see an IPA come out from you in that core lineup till most recently and really sticking true to those Belgian inspired beers that Allagash is so good at. How does that come up from your side when you're talking potentially on like these sales calls or people asking you like, hey, can you please come out with some of these other things?

50:13Are you having to defend that approach? What is people's responses to that strategy? I think that's a really interesting question. And also the answer has changed over the years. I think, you know, maybe even five or six years ago, we got a lot more of, come out with this, come out with that. Why are you doing this? Line extend wide, do this, do that. And now I think in the last couple of years, it's been like, we are so glad that you stuck with our guide and you're putting all your resources behind that. you make it easier for us to sell you know when you go in and distribute a network and they've just picked up 20 brands from a sale like we go in and just be like just sell allagash white beard you have it in these package sizes and these two draft sizes here's the tab handle go and when you don't have something that is that powerful a brand i think it makes it very hard to gain mind share so it has kind of flipped every year we do the tamron survey and that's always a question you can put these individual questions in.

51:11And that's always a question that we ask because we're always interested to see. And, you know, we have done some things that have been brought up from that survey, 19 twos, IPA. So we always want to see what our distributor network wants from us. But I would say it's started to be like, just focus on white, focus on white, keep it simple. So with that strategy and having such a powerful brand that still isn't in some markets, namely one with a lot of corn. What is the runway that you see still for Allagash White ahead? I do think it would be possible to be a national brand with Allagash White.

51:55We are fighting at the heels of Shock Top right now. And, you know, that's a national brand and we're in 19 states and DC. So we've got a strong selling story. You know, it wouldn't surprise me if we're bigger than the shop top next year and the off-premise scan data, but, you know, fingers crossed. I do think that a brand like Allagash White is relevant everywhere across the country. I mean, you see the success of Blue Moon over the years. They've done a great job with their marketing. They've done a fantastic job of telling people that drinking cloudy wheat beer is a good thing and they will enjoy it.

52:28And, you know, we benefited a lot from that because, you know, back in the day in 1995, nobody wanted to drink that style of beer. But, you know, Blue Moon, Millicors, they invested. and they taught people about it. So I think it's a very relevant style. I think the taste of Allagash White as well, it's not your average beer taste. I feel like it can now as people come into beer from other categories like Fruited Punches and Selsas, it can appeal to people that that kind of flavor is forward. It's not too poppy. I think it's very approachable style. So I still think it's possible. I still think it's possible to have a national brand with one brand.

53:11Maybe not the whole portfolio. I think that's a stretch these days, but I do think one brand is doable. I think you're right. I think there is opportunities for some brands. And like you said, one brand in a portfolio to make that play. Yeah. Yeah. Keeping it as simple as possible for distributors right now. I just, I think that's my advice for anyone in the craft beer industry right now. Like get behind it, get a selling story, get data behind it and use that to help your distributors sell your beer. I mean, I think if you wanted to open Iowa, somebody else in Massachusetts wouldn't have to mail your beer there for somebody else's birthday every year.

53:54Co-op missions to ship some Allagash. It does make it easy to know what to send. Yeah, yeah. I don't know who's doing that. It's certainly, you know, not a law abiding citizen. No, it would not go through UPS or USPS. Definitely not. No, no, no. So Naomi, this next question I struggled with because I feel like it's a little cliche, but I think we do still need to talk about this stuff because, you know, I spent a part of my morning on a hundred person Zoom call of women in the beverage industry. and it was clearly something everybody wanted to do and something we need. So you've been a really highly visible woman in the male-dominated world of beer sales.

54:37How do you think this has affected your approach to sales calls? And how has it made you different as a leader? Well, when I started as a sales rep and on the streets, I don't think our main wholesalers had one woman on the sales team, you know, and they were wine and beer houses. So it was very unusual at the time in this area, even as far down as Massachusetts. And, you know, in areas like Philadelphia, it was just more advanced. But it's definitely over the years, you know, definitely opened up. There's a lot more women in the industry. It gives you another perspective. Like, I think if you don't have women in your company, if you don't have women in leadership in your company, you're missing out on, you know, what is it, 51 % of the drinking population right now and a part that's growing.

55:24So I think you absolutely need to have women, you know, on your board or at the executive level, as well as all throughout your company. It needs to be a mix. I mean, like, how is it if, like, change your approach to sales calls and how does it inform your leadership style? Sales calls, honestly, there are still people that if you walk in with a male, will look at the male thinking that they're the one that's in charge. And I don't know if that's ever going to change. So you have to be, you know, strong in your sales goals and strong in your knowledge. And you have to be prepared to be like, no, I'm the one talking to you right now.

56:04Again, it's just a different perspective. You know, like I work with so many great male leaders. I've seen them all throughout the industry. And I've seen some really great female leaders too. It just, it helps to get different perspectives. I have really enjoyed leading a team here. I think it's encouraged more of a diverse applicant pool. And I don't know if it makes me a different leader. You know, a lot of people are like, don't make her angry. But, you know, if I get angry, I'm really angry. So don't make me angry. So there's a, but I don't know if I'm any different to how a male would lead, I guess.

56:38I have a lot of compassion for people, but I've met male leaders exactly like that too. And I'm always excited when someone on my team excels or someone moves on and gets a sales director job somewhere else or sales management. It's really nice to see people growing within an organization and then forming their own careers and paths after that. I want to rewind a little bit to the start with you. when Rob met you and pitched you on joining Allagash, what was that pitch? Because I imagine in 2009, there was a lot of education that still needed to go into telling people what a craft brewery was.

57:24But as far as a job goes, what was his pitch to you on joining the brewery? How did he sell it? I absolutely love that question, Justin, because Rob definitely did not pitch me. I pitched Rob for probably about two years on me joining his company. So that probably informs my sales style. I wanted to work for Algash. I saw a company that wasn't young at that stage and we've been around for a while, but was making phenomenal beer and was struggling to fulfill orders at the time. And, you know, that was affecting the chain of bars that I was working with at the time. And I knew that, you know, all the pieces were in the right place to be a crazy success and to see growth.

58:10It just needed some organization, I guess. And that's I was like, oh, I would really love to work for Rob and Jason, our brewmaster. They used to come into the chain of art that I work with a lot. And, you know, they're just such nice people. I was like, I would love to do this. A local main company. I see a ton of potential. And so I pitched him over a couple of years. And then eventually he said yes. So I don't know if he had to talk me into it. I think he was like, you want to drop that? Okay. What was the winning pitch? What turned the tide? I honestly think it was what I said to him. Like, you've just lost a draft line in a really great Irish bar down in New Hampshire because your distributor did not get back to that account in the appropriate amount of time and did not follow up.

58:58Like, people want your beer. you got to get it to them. And I think maybe that was the winning pitch. I don't know. Maybe I just wore him down. He's like, stop bothering me. Yeah, it was a very different company at the time. I think there was 13, 14 of us. And we all sat around the break room table on Fridays and drank beer together. So yeah, very, very different, very small company. And that was very appealing to me at the time. Well, since then, you've now grown that sales team to 35 reps now yeah somewhere around yeah that's a lot and that's a lot of like growth in that and when you were looking for those people that you wanted to bring on and join that team what were you were looking for what were the characteristics that fit into somebody who would be a good sales rep for Allagash and did that change at all as the strategy for Allagash adapted over the years yeah I mean you always want to work with people that are hard-working passionate but you know what they're passionate about it used to be back in the day everyone wanted someone that was passionate about craft beer and now you just want someone that's passionate you know someone that like can work hard so you know is really caring can do the job well is reliable like if they can sell something else, that's good too.

1:00:19I don't think coming in with this craft beer love and passion is as important as it was. I think you have to learn to, sales reps have to take a lot of rejection and you have to be okay with hearing no and saying, okay, then I'll come back next week. How about this? And so it's always worried me when we've hired people from our tasting room that really want to get into sales because people come to the tasting room because they want to taste your beer. And when you move people out into the trade without that support system and they hear no five times a day and they can't shake it off and they can't pull through it, like that can be soul destroying people.

1:01:02So you got to make sure that the person you're hiring is prepared for that and can fight against it and will come back positively the next day. And we've had some really awesome success stories of promoting people from the tasting room too of people that have like nope i i get how hard this could be but i want to do it and we've had i mean all five six people from our tasting room join our sales team over the years and it's been very successful but it's not for everybody like being rejected is not for everybody that would not be for me i'm gonna pass on that one i can do it face to face but like i could not call people up and get rejected you know I just that way like tell so but face to face I feel like I can shake it off a bit more I am one of those tasting room tour center to full-time job people and that pipeline like you said is it's not very populated but you know I would still do Saturdays at the at the tour center when I had my marketing job and whenever we would talk about styles or whatever I would be like oh well we had this beer on and people really liked it this weekend or somebody came in for a tour and they said this and they really like our brand.

1:02:13And occasionally somebody would have to think, hey, Jess, like these are self-selecting people. Like they're coming to our brewery because they already like us. The learnings here aren't what you think they are. That's a really good point. Yeah. They are the super fan because they have come and they have sought you out and they have spent hours on your premises tasting your beer. Yeah. It's not how everybody treats you. No. And that was like one of my biggest learning curves was to be like, what? Not everybody loves Boston lager with a burning, fiery passion. Like what? It was a rough day. It was like finding out the truth about the Easter Bunny.

1:02:53So Naomi, we've talked, I don't know, we just talked about your leadership style. I mean, like you've led this team through some really challenging years in beer and, And, you know, Allagash and particularly your HR director, Celine, has been really, really like open about like mental health struggles. You know, you guys allotted company funds to allow anybody that wanted to go for counseling to go get some therapy nearby. Like, that's great. But what have you learned leading a team of very social people during a really challenging time for that? And what advice would you have for other leaders of people going through similar situations?

1:03:27Yeah, I mean, the immediacy of the shutdown of COVID was pretty tough for people. Like you just said, these are social people. They like to be out. They thrive on interaction. And to go from like 100 to zero overnight was really tough. we just try as hard as possible to keep in communication with everybody because you know it's so easy in an outside sales rep job to feel like you're on an island and it's only you but if you lose that connection to the brewery or anything that you sell in an outside role like that's when you know bad things happen you know you really want to keep people as connected as possible try and do as much team interaction as possible we have you know full sales calls we have in-person again full company meetings where the sales team fly in from all over the country so we get to hang out with them for a week and we do some training and then just a lot of it's about interacting with different departments going to see a hop yard or going to see a malt house and going downtown portland and grabbing beers and just like really creating a sort of like a community when they come back in to make sure that they are felt supported by us but it has been hard and And honestly, the mental health resources that Allagash has provided have definitely been used and definitely been appreciated.

1:04:48I think, you know, as one of my friends left a brewery up here recently and started his own like mental health in the beverage industry sort of help out sort of classes. I was like, that's great because there is so much sort of need out there for that kind of thing, especially right now. But just try to keep people as connected as possible in varied ways. It's just, it's been a challenge, but it's also a really fun challenge to be like, oh, we got the sales team coming in. What are we going to do this time? And, you know, give them these experiences that they wouldn't get if they didn't work for Allagash.

1:05:22So that's always the fun part. That's fantastic. So we know craft has been challenged. It's no surprise to anybody. The last couple of years have been really challenging. But I'm going to steal something from NBWA chief economist Lester Jones and ask you this question. If you were a life coach for the craft beer industry, what would your advice be for it on coming out of this challenging period? It may not be the same advice that anyone else would give, maybe, but mine would be keep it simple. I think that we have made craft beer incredibly complicated over the last 15 years that I've really been involved in it.

1:06:07Every time I go to different countries, I'm made more aware of that. So craft beer exploded, flavor exploded, and we went off into a million different tangents and then a million different pieces of innovation and then innovation building on innovation. And it has gotten very complicated. And I think that the best thing we can do is simplify, you know, like create styles that people want to drink that you can have more than one of and just really keep your portfolio streamlined. That's going to help you. It's going to help your distributors. It's going to help the retailers. Like, let's give the retailers brands that are going to sell and pull through.

1:06:43And let's not try to force 15 other brands on them that aren't going to do that. Like, I think that would probably be my that does sound like a life coaching, right? Keep things simple. I feel like that's good. Yeah. Absolutely. Get some exercise. I don't know. Stay focused. Stay focused, yeah. Definitely. This might be a little contradictory to what you just said, but, you know, we talked about how Allagash is super disciplined with their approach to innovation. Was there any styles or any particular trends that you had like FOMO about that you wished there was an Allagash version just for your own personal pleasure?

1:07:21sure it's still a trend but I would love a non-allagash white for sure so my brother doesn't drink anymore and I want to be able to like have allagash beer with him and I I think yeah I would I would love that I would love that too I would have loved that a year ago now you need the alcohol glass now now we need it so one thing that's always interesting to me about craft is that we can say that like generally by and large the trends start out west and move east but our little corner of the world in new england has started some trends of its own lately but you know how has being in maine shaped your view of craft beer you know what maine is a really friendly craft beer state.

1:08:15I know that's not always true. I travel around a lot for work, so I know it's not always the case, but I have really been lucky that I grew up in craft beer in Maine because it's so supportive and it's a great group of people and people are really friendly here to each other and want to see everybody succeed. It's been interesting, honestly, the effect on tourism that craft beer has had. I mean, I don't know the current stats on this, but it's a huge part of our economy. It's a huge part of why people come to Maine. And then obviously you have the New England IPA trend. So that's not a beer style that I particularly like, but it's a hazy beer and we do a hazy beer.

1:08:56So it's interesting to see what develops where and why it does. It doesn't necessarily seem any primal reason why New New England has that style, but it is a really exciting state for craft beer. I mean, I don't know if last time anyone came to Bay, but like you're in like a little country road now. You're like, that's another brewery opening. And you're like in the middle of nowhere. And like, how is this possible? But yet it is. They keep opening. So there's a lot going on here still. Yeah, it's exciting. I'm very happy that it's so close to us so we can have our little escape to Maine. you can never get to all the breweries in just like one trip it has to be multiple trips there's no way like there's breweries in east portman which is like the most eastern part of the u.s and lubeck main and like places you know middle of nowhere really it takes you like five and a half hours to get to from portland and they're everywhere it's amazing i'd just be happy to get a buttered lobster roll at Eventide in Portland.

1:10:00Should we send you that? We can send you that. I don't know. Does it travel very well? Yeah. How long does that hold up? That could be a new birthday gift for Justin. I'm a whole ballet lobster roll. That's a good idea. File this away, Zoe. Okay. Noted. This is like an advert for Eventide. So it's been, you know, a nice career at Allagash. what is your favorite memory i guess over the last 14 years that you're kind of going to walk away with oh you know what this is a question that i was like i should probably think about it because i could have asked me i was like there's too many memories oh i mean if it's the day that bruban visited you none of us will be sad yeah maybe it's my last bruban conference that i went which was very, very fun.

1:10:53Well, now we're going to cry. Oh, it's a great conference. Well, hopefully it's not your last brewbound conference. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Last one with Allagash, I guess. But I don't know. I mean, probably the first time the sales team came back into town after COVID. Because we didn't do all company meetings for a couple of years. We were pretty safe. But I just remember that first time of like, God, I've seen you in like little tiny boxes for two years. And like over the years, like you become close to people, you know, you watch them get married, have kids, send that kiss to school, you know.

1:11:31And then it's like to finally see them after two years, there was a lot of hugging. So that's probably one of my favorite memories. So now that you're stepping away from that and you're going to have some time to breathe and maybe some time to figure out what's next. what are you sort of interested in or you know what what do you sort of want next for life for this next chapter well i'd love to write for blue band and do that podcast just kidding i mean we could talk i'll retire so i honestly like talking to people about this like it's been 15 years so you know there were some jobs 15 years ago that don't exist anymore and then a whole bunch of jobs that weren't around 15 years ago that now exist so like i haven't thought about another job you know i haven't thought about what i want to do um so i gotta take some time to figure it out and you know maybe got another 15 years left in me work-wise so you know what's next for the next 15 years but yeah i'd like to stay somewhat connected to the industry um i was in bars and restaurants before so it's hopefully either hospitality, beer beverage.

1:12:41I'd be very interested to stay. You know, that's what I love is, you know, this side of the industry. So yeah, it'll be something like that. But who knows? Well, we're glad you're going to be sticking around, it sounds like in some manner. Yeah. And like geographically, where do you want to be? You're hanging out in Maine. I'm hanging out in Maine. Yeah, that was another question. I get asked a lot, but it was like, this is where I live. And that's the other thing. It's like, you know, it might have to be more of a remote job because, you know, Maine has only a few jobs in certain industries. But yeah, I am sticking around in Maine.

1:13:17We'll see in the next election cycle, but I plan to stay in America. So we'll see what happens. Fair, fair. So we can meet for Beers and Oysters somewhere in New Hampshire. Yes, let me know. So final, final, what's your favorite Alec Ash beer after 15 years? Oh, I'm going to answer this one, like Rob Todd. It's Allagash White, of course. When I first started, I was trying everything. All the sours we made, I was obsessed with everything. And over the years, it's gone more and more and more to white. I like some of our stouts. I love our Haunted House releasing again this year. And our North Sky Stout.

1:14:00But day-to-day, Allagash White, hands down. Awesome. I had a feeling that's what you were going to go with. I know. That's not like somebody lying. Like that's actually. Naomi, this has been a pleasure. It's like I said at the beginning, it's always a delight to see you. And we're so thrilled that you join us for like your exit interview. But we can't wait to see what's next. We hope you stay close. And we've just loved getting to know you and, you know, hanging out with you and stuff and drinking Allagash Whites, of course. Well, thank you so much. It's been great getting to know you all too.

1:14:34And thanks for, thanks for conducting my accident interview. Oh, of course. We'll just pass this over to Rob Todd. Yeah.

1:14:47So that is our show for this week. We are so thankful to Naomi for joining us. And so thankful to Allagash for introducing her to this world for all of us to get to know. Justin Zoe, you guys are the best co-hosts anyone could ask for. Joshua Pratt, our technical wizard. Where would we be without you? Absolutely nowhere. Also, big shout out to our tech buddies, Joe and Ryan. And that's it for this week. Hope you enjoyed the podcast. Let us know. Podcasts at brewbound.com. And we will catch you next week with another fresh episode.