Do What The Others Won't. It's Why This Brand Works.

16:14Issamu Kamide:I think the most important thing for WonderWorks future is going to be first, the juice itself. The wine. The wine. How it's made for us, natural wine is going to be table stakes. Sustainable organic farming, minimal intervention, no additives, that sort of thing, table stakes from here on out. Nobody's going to want highly manipulated products. And then from leaping off of that, it's being a part of the culture. Like you said, looking at all these other categories, how they weave themselves in and out of people's lives, that's the key thing for us. And, you know, for so long, especially recently, wine has sort of talked down to or looked down on younger generations, sort of in a, I wouldn't say condescending, but, you know, there's a little bit of some complaining going on.

17:02Issamu Kamide:And really that's more about sort of waiting for people to come to them versus going to them and learning from them and speaking with them directly and engaging with them. You know, the most successful brands out right now do exactly that. And young people want that, you know, they want the brands that they buy to represent them and align with all the other aspects of their life. And that's really key.

17:24Andrew Lardy:To me, Wonderwork feels like a brand that you don't necessarily have to teach to someone. I think a lot of what you sell is pretty intuitive. But if you do think about consumer education and what you have to do to get people aware of and interested in your brand, it's not going to be in the same way that traditional wine brands have done in the past. You're not going to be talking about AVA and vintages as much as other brands might. So what do you talk about? What does the consumer want to know about your brand? What do you have to educate them on?

18:01Issamu Kamide:Honestly, it comes down to, does it look cool and does it taste good? And can I afford it? Those are sort of the three pillars that kind of guide everything we do. When it comes to our labels, we try to design them with names and look and feel that when you see it, you kind of already understand what it's going to taste like. For example, we have this wine here, Purpolator.

18:22Andrew Lardy:It's time for the Purpolator.

18:24Issamu Kamide:It's time for the Purpolator. And on the label, it says it tastes like purple. It's really cut and dry. It's really simple. You open it up. We actually made this wine. It's 70%, you know, regular wine, 30 % Welch's Concord grape juice that we fermented. We called up Welch's and said, hey, would you sell us some juice? because we wanted to create that purple grape drink flavor, but in a wine. And so we take, it's very simple approach, honestly, make it look cool, make it look and sound like it tastes. And you've already gotten past the first four or five barriers to entry for people. And then to your point, it's like, we don't beat you over the head with varietals or how it's made and AVAs and appellations and all this stuff, because that to us, if you want to go down that route, go down that route for sure.

19:15Issamu Kamide:Get deeper and deeper in the wine, learn about Barolo, learn about Bordeaux and White Burgundy. But we're also talking to people who maybe have never actually bought a bottle of wine on their own. So what is it that's going to get them into the category? And I think just being sort of simple with it, being upfront with it, just letting them know, hey, automatically, this is a good product. It's high quality. It's better made, but it's also fun. Give it a shot. And then invariably, people love it. We go all over the country, not just on the coasts. We're going to Austin. We're going to Chicago.

19:47Issamu Kamide:We're going to Cincinnati. We're going to Tampa. We're going to Portland. We're going to the, we just did a big event on the San Juan Islands. For us, it's like getting out to everybody and just showing them that wine can be this fun, social, cultural beverage that they can enjoy and doesn't have to be intimidating. I know that's a very common refrain in wine, that wine is intimidating or, you know, I don't know enough about it. You know, we hear that all the time and we say, hey, you don't need to know anything about it. Do you know how an hazy IPA is made? Good point. I'm at the airport. I see guys come up all the time.

20:20Issamu Kamide:Can I get a hazy? Can I get a hazy? And I'm thinking to myself, do they know how a hazy IPA is made? Do they know what makes it hazy?

20:27Andrew Lardy:Do they know why it's called hazy in the first place? Exactly. You know what the initials, IPA stand for.

20:32Issamu Kamide:Right. Yeah. They don't. And so beer has created a massive subcategory of hazy IPA for people that just love it. They love the way it tastes. Now they sort of find their breweries that they like or whatever. But when you talk to a brewer, it's a very complicated process about like temperature and timing and when hops are added and all this stuff. But beer never led with that. Right. You know, wine, there's a long history of it. A lot of it dates back to like the rules of the old world and the rules that dictate how things have to be made. But, you know, for us, the beauty of California and the beauty of natural wine is that we can be more creative and we can create things differently.

21:11Issamu Kamide:And we don't have as many rules. You know, we try to break out of some of the dogma. And that really resonates with people where we just say, hey, does it look cool? Does it taste good? Do you like it? Can you afford it?

21:22Andrew Lardy:It resonates with people, but which people? Because I think the existing infrastructure for wine and wine distribution might look at a brand like yours and say, I don't know if this is going to work. I don't know if this is right for us. I might be reading into things. But do you feel like breaking out of the mold applies as much to the positioning of wine as it does the business of wine?

21:47Issamu Kamide:Yeah. I mean, when I talk about those structural issues that are affecting the wine industry, particularly in the three-tier system, it's just trying to get creative. People know where they can buy wine and they understand how to go out and find it, but getting in front of them first and foremost, not waiting around for them to come to you, understanding that, you know, people 25 to 40 don't care about points.

22:11Andrew Lardy:And you're talking about rating, the rating system. Right, rating system. So sometimes when you'll see, oh, this was rated 95 by so-and-so.

22:19Issamu Kamide:Yeah, for most people, they're going to be like, well, what does that mean? Who rated it. I don't see that in any other aisle in the grocery store. I don't see, you know, gold stars on Kraft Mac and Cheese being like, this is rated, you know, 97 points or whatever. So I think like just understanding that people, especially young people shop differently, look for things differently and bringing that back into the three tier system when you're working with your distributors or your sales reps and really being like, look, there's a playbook for wine and that worked for a long time. And now we need to write a new playbook and we need to think outside the box.

22:52Issamu Kamide:And for Wonder Work, that includes things like sponsoring music festivals. I'll give you an example. We just did Just Like Heaven and Pasadena, Strokes for Headlining, LCD Sound System. We served 4 ,000 glasses of wine in one weekend. And, you know, that was stellar for us. And some of the other beverage sponsors were big wine houses, but they weren't serving wine. That was really interesting to us. It made us feel like these big wine companies that now have RTDs or now have other products are leading with those and they're not leading with wine. And so for us, we see that as opportunity. Like if you're going to sidestep and not promote wine to young people and try to lead with RTDs or whatever else, then we will fully take up that space and introduce Wonder Work to as many young people as possible.

23:41Andrew Lardy:calling all uk listeners join us for a live cpg meetup in london wednesday october 21st at trip hq it's free rsvp at taste radio.com slash events the angel group was among the first believers in

23:57Issamu Kamide:brands like poppy bachans goodles and siete the next generation of great consumer brands is being built right now learn about investing alongside other industry professionals at we are the angel group.com.

24:11Andrew Lardy:For beverage brands, a co-packer can be far more than a place to make your product. Silver King beverage company is building a model around flexibility, efficiency, and partnership for making and filling cans under one roof to helping brands launch, scale, and innovate. Stay tuned till the end of this episode for a bonus interview with Silver King CEO, John Sackstetter to discuss the evolving role of co-packers and what brands should expect from their manufacturing partners. Like what you're hearing? Put it into action at our winter events. Nosh Live, BevNet Live, and BrewBound Live in Los Angeles this December.

24:52Andrew Lardy:Register by October 23rd to save$100. Head to cpgmedia.com slash events. If I were an investor, if I had any money, I'd say, hey, you know what? I think WonderWorks got something. I think that you guys are onto a concept that will resonate with consumers, especially younger consumers in the years to come. But at the moment, some investors might question your strategy, might question your approach. How have you been able to get people on your side from an investment standpoint?

25:23Issamu Kamide:Two things. We show them what it looks like out into the world. I think a lot of people in wine in particular or investors are like, you know, they read the headlines. and the headlines tend to be very negative. But we say, hey, we just had a 600-person party in LA, everybody under the age of 40, drinking nothing but wine. Here's what it looks like.

25:43Andrew Lardy:And you hosted this party or was it another party that you just sold the wine at or served the wine at?

25:47Issamu Kamide:Yeah, we host them. We partner with different venues. We partner with different bars or restaurants, a lot of different party promoters, party groups. You know, this stuff is happening all over the country if you look for it. But you have to be, again, you have to be embedded in the culture. You have to be with the people. And then on the sales side, I think our numbers speak for itself. This summer, we learned through Nielsen that we're the second fastest growing premium wine brand in the country. Outstanding. And that is really outstanding for natural wine. When a lot of people in the wine industry sort of look at natural wine as like a niche or something that wouldn't leave the hips or confines of Williamsburg.

26:27Issamu Kamide:But it's like, no, No, natural for us is just, you know, better made, higher quality, that sort of table stakes I talked about. But it's really like the juice itself, the packaging, the brand is what people are getting towards. We're growing year over year. Our velocities are doubling year over year. And that's a big thing for us to make sure that not only are we bringing people to the brand and bringing people to the category, but they're coming back and buying it again and again and again.

26:52Andrew Lardy:Earlier, you had said that the brand has to look good. The wine has to taste good. And it has to be affordable, relatively affordable. Right. What does relatively affordable look like? How do you determine price point, especially when there are other options out there that might not be as good an option as WonderWork, but might be a little bit more affordable for the everyday consumer?

27:15Issamu Kamide:I mean, for us, it's really, we try to hit, you know, depending market by market, 20 to 25 on the shelf.

27:21Andrew Lardy:That's sort of a sweet spot. And it's a liter too. You're serving 33 % more than the average wine bottle.

27:28Issamu Kamide:Yeah. For our big wines that are leaders, yes. We also have 750s, but... Most of your business is leaders, isn't it? Yeah. Most of the business is leaders. We have big orange, big juicy, big crispy. For us, that connotes value and shareability. It also works really well on premise for buy the glass. Like you said, you get 33 % more wine per bottle. You know, people look for value. and when they see something is better made, higher quality, fun, tastes great, and hits that sort of right sweet spot on price, it's a no-brainer. You know, I think when you start to dip lower, people tend to question the quality, and then obviously anything above 30, you know, is really out of the reach for most people.

28:08Issamu Kamide:So I think we've sort of dialed it in and kept it in that $20 to$25 range because it's still premium, but it's still accessible. Yeah.

28:17Andrew Lardy:I'm on your Instagram page now and I'm looking at a past party, the Big Wines Pool Party featuring Wonder Work, Saturday, August 8th. That must have been fun.

28:25Issamu Kamide:yeah i mean hey we do 10 to 20 events a month you know all around the country we're either sponsoring things or we're popping up somewhere we have tons of people reaching out to us all the time being like hey our audience used to be drinking white claws and stuff in their dorm room but now they they want something a little bit nicer a little bit more their speed and that's where we come in this upcoming weekend we'll be doing portola fest shout out aeg and golden voice 60 ,000 people in San Francisco. And we're stoked. And I think we're going to sell a ton of wine. I hope so.

29:00Andrew Lardy:You don't only operate the brand. You don't only own the brand. You are the brand. When I'm looking at Instagram, you and Andrew are pretty prominently featured on the site. You exude a certain lifestyle that seems to be very much in line with Wonder Work. Are you comfortable with that? Was that something you had to grow into? Or did it feel like a really natural fit putting yourself out there?

29:25Issamu Kamide:I mean, we, I guess we walked the walk and talked the talk. We came from a party background. We were young rave kids in the DC metro area. And when we moved to LA, tons of our friends were DJs and promoters and it just came naturally to us. So that was the avenue to access people who want to have a good time. And when people want to have a good time, that's where you'll find Wonderwork. And now we're on the back of every single bottle. Right on. I think that's kind of our little riff on Bartles and James, you know, like we're bringing it back.

29:57Andrew Lardy:That's an old brand for you younger listeners. Yeah. It's an old wine cooler brand, another dated term.

30:04Issamu Kamide:But when we did that, you know, we designed the label. We're like, oh, yeah, that looks cool. We should put ourselves on it. And then my wife was like, how many bottles are you on? I was like, 350 ,000. Wow. Yeah. But I think it's great. I think it helps personalize it. You know, a lot of wine can feel really impersonal. It's all cursive. It's an estate. It's a vineyard. It's a legacy name. And it's not something that people can easily connect with. But we always tell people, like, here's our number. You can call us, talk to us anytime. DM us, shoot us a message. We'll always respond. And again, that's just part of that idea, that, you know, real belief that you got to get down with the people.

30:42Issamu Kamide:You got to be amongst them. And ultimately with the brand, you know, we try to be good for like people's self-esteem. They want to feel confident in their purchases. They want to feel confident in the wine they gift somebody. Or, you know, if they're throwing a dinner party for the first time, what are they going to serve? That kind of stuff. And I think we really find our place in that.

31:00Andrew Lardy:Being out there and in the trenches with your consumers, how much of that gives you insight into innovation and new product development? Do they talk to you about what they want in terms of flavors, perhaps even certain styles of wine? For sure.

31:16Issamu Kamide:like maybe three or four years ago, everybody was like, you know, what is orange wine? What is, so that gave us the idea of...

31:25Andrew Lardy:And to be clear, let's clear that up for listeners who don't know what orange wine is. Orange wine is?

31:29Issamu Kamide:Orange wine is skin contact white wine. So think of it as like a white wine made the same way you would make a red wine. The orange color comes from the juice itself during fermentation, having contact with the skin, the skins of the grapes, and all those sort of polyphenols and there's a little bit of oxidation that happens and it turns the juice orange.

31:50Andrew Lardy:And for white wine, they do not include the skins.

31:52Issamu Kamide:Right. White wine is just direct press, straight juice. But orange wine is extremely popular with young people. We did this analysis of every James Beard Award and nominated restaurant over the last three years. How many of them had a skin contact section on their wine list or orange wine section on their wine list? And it was like 92%. So if you think about it from that sort of like culinary restaurant world going out space, young people are coming in contact with this all the time. You will not see it on the menu at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse. So when people were like, what is orange wine? We created our one liter big orange that's designed specifically to answer that question.

32:32Issamu Kamide:We say it's the wine for the orange curious. Somebody who's like, I've never had a blah, blah, blah. And so we pour that for them to say, here, now you have an idea of what this sort of subcategory or style of wine is. You know, it's like a white wine with a little bit more texture, a little bit more oomph, a little bit more aroma, and it really hooks people. Honestly, I think for the younger generation, orange wine is like the new buttery chard.

32:55Andrew Lardy:Even though buttery chard is vilified by so many people otherwise. Well, I don't know. Buttery chard can definitely be divisive among certain consumers.

33:05Issamu Kamide:Right. But what, you know, what they're talking about is like a white wine with texture, a white wine with body to it. And I think that's sort of what people are going for. But yeah, like when we're down in the trenches and we're with people, they give us all sorts of ideas. They, they really tell us about how to talk about wine, you know, because they'll come and they'll be honest and they'll be like, I don't know about this. I don't know about that. And we'll say, well, we can explain things. We can get as nerdy as people want us to get, or we can just say like, just try this, get a feel for it, get an idea for what it is.

33:34Issamu Kamide:And then next time you're in a wine shop or you're in a Whole Foods, you're in a grocery store, look for something similar or look for us. So that kind of stuff. And then in terms of innovation, I mean, that's really driven by all the stuff coming out in other categories and us always asking ourselves, what if we did this? Or wouldn't it be cool if we did that? And that sort of leads us to where we try to head with creating new products or creating new flavors?

33:59Andrew Lardy:It's truly outside the box thinking. And I think, again, this goes to the entrepreneurial mindset of breaking the glass ceiling and finding out what you can do and where you can go with a brand or a product. And I think Wonderwork is the personification embodiment of that. So I know you've mentioned you're big fans of Taste Radio. We're big. Oh, I'm in particular a big fan of Wonder Work and I'm thrilled that we had this opportunity to sit down and talk. I think there's a very big future for your brand and I'm so excited to see where it goes from here.

34:34Issamu Kamide:No, I appreciate it, Ray. Shout out the whole Taste Radio family. Everybody's awesome over there. You guys keep us all up to date, educated on what's happening. And also if you're just a big CPG head like we are, you know, that's that's what you have to tune into. And yeah, I mean, we're very excited for where Wonder Work is going. The future is bright. The door is wide open. And I think you'll see more and more people drinking wine. On that note, cheers. Cheers. Thank you so much.

35:04Andrew Lardy:That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNet.com Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cratchy. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt. And our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smirlinski And our designer is Amanda Huang Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio Please share the podcast with friends and colleagues And of course, we would love it If you could review us on the Apple Podcast app Or your listening platform of choice Check us out on Instagram Our handle is BevNetTasteRadio As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts Please send us an email to ask at tasteradio.com On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.

36:06Andrew Lardy:Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now, I'm honored to be sitting down with John Sackstetter, the CEO of Silver King Beverage Company. John, it's great to see you. Hi, Ray. Thanks. Thanks for having me. So what is Silver King Beverage Company? Well, Silver King Beverage is a Copac facility in Salt Lake City, Utah. What's unique about us is that we actually produce aluminum cans and fill aluminum cans under one roof. So that's unique in North America. A model that we thought would be great to service the western part of the U.S. where canned supply was more limited, as well as Copac capabilities.

36:45Andrew Lardy:And so the facility was built. We're about 1.4 million square feet over two buildings. And we kind of provide an end-to-end service for our customers filling beverage products. Our goal is to be a one-stop shop. So we produce the can here. We fill a can. We can variety pack the cans and also provide warehouse services for our customers. So there's a lot of flexibility in our manufacturing process, different MOQs that have enabled emerging brands and new brands to come to market with a lower MOQ, but then also scale and be produced on our high speed lines as well. It seems like there would be a lot of advantages for beverage companies of all sizes to work with Silver King and its integrated model.

37:31Andrew Lardy:But why specifically does it matter? I know you mentioned one specific reason, but what are the other reasons that a company would want to work with you and the integrated model that you provide? Sure. And we hope that's the case, right? We want to be a provider that, you know, is focused on quality and service and trust, right? I think that's such an important part of this is that brand owners are entrusting that process with us to make the product in the liquid that goes in a can and goes to a consumer. But I think, you know, when you think about aluminum can manufacturing and getting product for the West Coast, there's a freight savings, a logistics savings in that.

38:08Andrew Lardy:You know, we're not a national provider. You know, we know that we have a regional focus and logistics and that cost of transportation on inbound materials, as well as an outbound, getting it to the consumer, ultimately, is a big part of the puzzle for a brand owner. And I think that's where we service a niche in the West. And by providing a can, in addition to the rest of the services we mentioned, there's a tremendous freight savings when you're not shipping, you know, air across the country to fill somewhere else, right? It's all here. So you save that leg of the supply chain. Do you work with companies that are brand new?

38:45Andrew Lardy:Do you work with companies that are more established, that are, you know, large strategics? What size and stage of company is ideal to working with Silver King Beverage Company? You know, really, really, it's all of the above. And I think that's another strategic advantage that we have. So we have very, very large brands that work with us to supply a regional portion of their network. Right. So that's that's great. The big volume. But we also have helped emerging brands and companies who are just starting out and that we're the first time they're making their product. And we have some low MOQs on both can making and can filling.

39:21Andrew Lardy:So we have three can fill lines and one is 250 cans a minute with only a 50 ,000 can MOQ. So that lets those new brands produce at a scale that's more appropriate for them with the hopes that those brands are successful and then can graduate to the higher speed lines. And we've seen that. We've had some great success stories where brands have started here and then just really exploded and have moved from our slowest lines to our fastest lines. And we've helped them build. And eventually, those same customers end up finding other Copac sites on the east coast of the country because it doesn't, you know, again, it doesn't make sense to produce here for the east coast and ship liquid that far.

40:01Andrew Lardy:So we help support that process as well. We're here for the customer and our brand owners. Clearly, flexibility is a key advantage of working with Silver King Beverage Company. But in your experience, why is flexibility such a critical factor for beverage companies? Great question. You know, and I came from the brand side of things. So I work with co-packers and I help build plants to support big brands. Innovation drives this industry, right? So whether it's new flavors or pack sizes, can sizes, whatever it happens to be, that really does drive the consumer. And so that is really important for the brand.

40:42Andrew Lardy:And I think what we've created here is that ultimate flexibility. So we can produce almost any can size you can imagine. We can fill those cans, provide a multitude of variety pack options for customers. And then we also have the ability to take on different types of beverages. So we do a lot of sparkling water, energy drinks. we're doing a ton of protein drinks right now. We have our hemp license and are helping customers that have hemp beverages. And we're also getting into flavored malt beverages here. So it's being able to provide all of those services to the brands and be really quick and nimble as well, because we're a small company.

41:19Andrew Lardy:So being quick and nimble on the innovation front and helping customers through launching new products, new flavors, I think is a place that we excel as well. I've spoken with a lot of entrepreneurs who look at co-packers as pretty much one-dimensional. You make my product. In your case, you've sort of changed the model such that it's about so much more. But at the end of the day, it's really about trust. A relationship has to be built and based on trust. How would you advise brands and their owners to think about relationships with their co-packers and what they should be expecting from their co-packers?

41:59Andrew Lardy:Yep, great question. And I think, you know, ultimately it sounds a little cliche, but it is about a partnership. It's not just a, you know, a supplier and manufacturer kind of working together to create a widget. It's about a partnership. You know, we have under the same roof here, we also have laboratories and an R &D center. We help companies kind of recreate their brands and make sure formulation is most efficient, right? So that we help them reduce costs. And that comes with trust in a real partnership where there's been companies that have come here and said, hey, this is the way it has to be.

42:33Andrew Lardy:This is the way we do it. And we respect that and we'll do that. But then we'll offer suggestions to say, hey, we think we can actually make this more efficiently if you are open and willing to try A, B, and C. And then working together, we do that. And I think we've had a lot of success there. So it's really about building the trust. And that's around quality and service, I think, is where it starts. You know, cost is always a big part of this equation and discussion as we bring on new customers. Everybody wants to drive cost as low as they can. But it has to be about much more than that because we all have to survive.

43:07Andrew Lardy:We all have to make a little bit of money along the way here. And I think, you know, in the Copac world, it's some tight margins. And so there has to be a mutual respect that we all have to kind of share in the process here. And I think when we work together to find ways to take out cost, we all win and it's more successful. Absolutely. So thinking about the future, how do you see Silver King Beverage Company as fitting into the future of manufacturing? You know, we want to continue to provide great service and be known for quality. And then as an employer, I think that's important, too. We're building a place where we want people to enjoy coming to work and be proud of the work that we do.

43:49Andrew Lardy:And really, I know when we do town halls and we survey employees, they're proud to go into a grocery store and pick up a can and see the Silver King logo on there and know that they helped put that onto the shelf. And so it's number one is building a great company that focuses on safety and quality and building trust with our partners. And I think for our partners in the industry, it's continuing to be super flexible, understanding the changing environment and what's really needed in the market. You know, I mentioned some of the things that are evolving, like protein drinks, the hemp, again, variety packs, I think continue to be a big player in the market.

44:29Andrew Lardy:So I think we have to stay in tune with our customers and understand what's driving their innovation for the next two, three years. With our really close partners, that's what we do. We have a connection into them where we're talking about what's coming down the road and how do we prepare as a co-packer to be able to address that. And we want to be the first ones they come to to try new things. So we have some really big customers that have little innovation offshoots that are kind of off the beaten path, I'd say, within their company. And they come here to try on our smaller lines. They'll run those tests and they'll do market trials.

45:07Andrew Lardy:And, you know, we actually can print cans, but we can also sleeve cans on our small lines. So we really, again, built a tremendous amount of flexibility so that customers can come here. We can be a bit of an innovation center and partner for them. And I think that's what, you know, is going to drive the future. I would say so. Innovative ideas need innovative partners. And it sounds like Silver King Beverage Company is just that. The website is silverkingbeveragecompany.com. There's a contact us link on there. Is that the best way to get in touch with you and your team? That is. And we monitor that daily.

45:40Andrew Lardy:And so we try to get back to everybody really quickly within 48 hours. And again, we're excited to continue to grow and provide a great solution for new business in the West part of the US. Outstanding. John, thanks so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it. And let's definitely stay in touch. I appreciate it. Thanks, Ray.