How CPG Shelves Are Becoming A Sensory Battlefield

0:10Hello and thanks for tuning in to taste radio the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. I'm Ray Lateef, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and with my co-hosts, John Craven, Melissa Travers, and Mike Schneider. In this episode, we spotlight Taste Radio meetups in NYC in Austin, unpack how Mars is working to make sustainable packaging viable at scale for Kind Snacks, and explore the power of color in CPG, how it influences flavor perception and sparks social sharing. We also sample ube and robe nuts, sip on clean, craveable energy drinks, and highlight a new social media campaign that cleverly uses a flip phone to bridge digital engagement with real-world experiences.

1:03I love when people come to the office. We always tell people to come to BevNet headquarters and visit us whenever they can. And we had a bunch of guests here this morning, including the amazing folks or two of the amazing folks from the Angel Group, Adam Spriggs and of course, Chris Robb, who, Melissa, you sat down with for an interview here in the studio. It was a big party here this morning. I sat down with Chris Robb to talk about Supernatural Ventures, which is his investment arm. And something really interesting about Supernatural is that they invest super early stage. So I think so many of the brands in our audience will be interested in that.

1:39So we had a nice long conversation that you'll be able to find on nonbase.com for the Nonbase podcast. And he not only, of course, explained their investment thesis and how they look at potential opportunities, but he also gave some really amazing advice for folks who are starting up brands to kind of just help them with their businesses in general. So if you're not looking to raise money as an early stage brand, if you have 10, 15, hundred million dollars in the bank, do not listen to that podcast episode that Melissa are recorded and we'll be publishing on non-based soon. Yeah. Just rest on your laurels.

2:13Assume everything's going to be fine. Don't see any competition anywhere. Don't even worry about it. I'm just kidding. You should definitely listen to it when it comes up. Obviously, if you are an early stage brand, if you're an early stage founder and you're listening to this podcast, and I know we have a lot of listeners who tune in on a regular basis and are building businesses that are one to five years in, the Non-Bass podcast is an essential resource. And I think the episode that you're going to be releasing with Chris Robb is going to be essential listening for anyone in this industry. So tune in soon.

2:45We'll be dropping in about three weeks. A few weeks, yeah. Yeah. Okay, very cool. Very cool. Well, thank you to everyone who came out to our Taste Radio New York City meetup at the offices of Anshin. Obviously we're recording this, or maybe not obviously, but we're recording this before. Why are you always going to do timelines? Well, because, you know, I'm saying thank you to everyone who came out, but I can't reveal all the details per se because I don't necessarily know exactly what happened at the meetup. I know it's a great time. It's called foreshadowing. It is foreshadowing. And we want to see you at upcoming meetups, including the next one, which is in Austin, Texas, on May 7th.

3:21This is going to be at the office of Nutribolt. Nutribolt is the maker of C4, the majority owner of Bloom. It is an incredible company. They have done really amazing things in the beverage industry and their office is pretty, pretty damn awesome. So definitely check it out. Head to tasteradio.com slash meetups to learn more about the Austin meetup once again on May 7th. Thank you so much to our partners for the Austin meetup, including obviously Nutribold, Vibrant Ingredients, Belay Solutions, Next Foods, and Corner Market Communications. Thank you all for your support. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

3:57Absolutely. Listeners, check them out. Check them out. Chicago, San Diego, San Francisco, and London coming later this year. I mentioned San Diego. John and I will be in San Diego in about a week, a little less than a week. Can't wait to hit the beach. Can't wait to hit the beach. I will too, but not with you. Okay. I'm there for vacation. Can you bring some lattes over? Yeah, sure. Okay. That's all I need you for anyway. April 23rd. That's a Thursday. The fantastic folks at Naturally San Diego will be hosting their annual Naturally Rising Pitch Competition. I will be hosting the competition. John Craven will be one of the judges.

4:41Oh, boy. Oh, can't wait. Yeah, very excited. This is going to be a different kind of dynamic than we typically have for our New Bedford Showdown competitions. Well, maybe it will be the same thing where I'll be like, hey, John, what do you think of this brand? Shut the F up, Ray. Ray, I don't like your question, but here's my answer. I hope it will be different, but who knows? I wouldn't expect anything different if I were you. Yeah. Well, if you're in the San Diego area, it is, and I can say from experience, and John's been there too, one of the best events of the year. It is a raucous, fun, exciting time.

5:14Raucous? Yeah. There's like 400 people that come to this event. I mean, I've seen the - It gets loud and exciting. I was going to say, I've seen the live stream of it, and it's a little, wow, crazy. The first time I was on stage - hosting this thing. I was a little taken aback because I couldn't believe how much energy was in the room. There's a lot of support in that community for sure. Yeah. And everyone was there to support these early stage founders. And if you want to talk about community, naturally San Diego defines it. They have a great organization for sure. This week we released an episode featuring the founder of a brand called Tomb.

5:47His name is Matt Joyce. Tomb is a brand of garlic dips. And And Matt founded this company a little over a decade ago. And this goes back to some of the conversations we had in prior episodes about crazy ideas. And nobody really knows what's going to work. Because if you had said, hey, I'm going to create a new pantry staple that you're going to have in your refrigerator. And it's going to be akin to using ketchup. You'd be like, okay, I'd be surprised if you raised 50 cents, you know, on this idea. But Matt Joyce knew that there would be a place for a garlic dip at some point in America. And he struggled for a long time.

6:26He had to, at one point, move into his brother's basement because he was so focused on making his idea happen, making this business work. And now Toome is indeed a pantry staple in many homes in America and is distributed widely across grocery stores in the United States. And it is an amazing story. And I highly recommend people tune in. The episode is titled Building an Under-the-Radar Superstar. I hear how Toom is taking over. A lot of founders say I'd do anything to have my, whatever their, you know, their baby is succeed. But not a lot of people say I'd move into my brother's basement. And when you think about a product that requires education, I mean, that's a pretty good example, getting a garlic dip like that into so many households, that's super impressive.

7:15I mean, it's interesting. I think when he started out, there just wasn't that much in the way of interesting innovation in that part of the store. And, you know, I think that was almost like one of his challenges in hindsight. You know, it wasn't this, I don't know, world now where there's like cool hummus startup brands and obviously a bunch of other, you know, dip companies out there. and it seems like just having critical mass of sorts fighting the same fight was really kind of key there but you know that stuff is like doom that is i mean it like man that stuff packs a punch pretty awesome product yeah you've known matt and i've known matt for some time and he's been grinding and for a long time he didn't do interviews he didn't really do a lot of stories about the brand kind of shied away from pr because he was head down focused and he said when the time is right, then we'll go big and far and wide with the Toom story.

8:12And that's what he's doing now. And it's a great story, like I mentioned. So tune in Toom this week on Taste Radio. And not just to keep going back to your incredible LinkedIn posts, because we always talk about those, John. It's a requirement of working here. It's a requirement of working here. That's terrible. And not true at all, to be clear. Wow. You wrote something about a week ago about moats and creating a moat around your brand and what defines a, I guess, sustainable moat. Is that the word you use? You know, look, I mean, part of what I was going for also was I think there's a lot of times where someone also doesn't want other brands to follow.

8:53Right. Or they're like, I don't know, trying to patent their formula or some other thing that it's like, it's not what's going to make you win. This is obviously a topic that we'll be highlighting at BevNet Live. BevNet Live is happening on June 10th and 11th in New York City. And over the years, we've heard a lot about how to be and how to represent yourself as new, differentiated, and desired for consumers. How do you find that opportunity space in the market? Exactly. And I think that's what we're going to be hearing a lot about at BevNet Live from folks like Richard Laver, who is the founder of Lucky Energy, formerly, well, I guess once a founder, always a founder of Kate Farms.

9:35I mentioned Tom Furst last week, founder of Nantucket Nectars, now with CulturePop. Mark Rampolla, who was recently announced, founder of Zico, now a managing director and founder of Ground Force Capital. These are people who've lived the experience, who know what it takes to build brands and have these crazy ideas and go through all the struggles of making it actually work. As you said, it's one thing to find the opportunity space and it's another to make it actually work. And they've made it work. And I would be remiss if I didn't point out that it's June 10th and 11th and early registration ends Friday the 24th, I think.

10:11Friday the 24th. Yes. How about that? Yes. I also want to mention, of course, we'll have the founders of Trip, Olivia Ferdie and Daniel Currie. Samantha Fletcher, who is, I don't want to pile on too much praise on Samantha, but she's pretty much the greatest person that ever lived.

10:30The greatest person that ever lived. Samantha Fletcher is the senior category manager for adult non-alcohol at Whole Foods Market. Apologies to Mother Teresa. She takes meetings with everyone. She is definitely someone you want to meet at the event. I don't know. There's going to be a lot more people announced in the near future. Ellie Truesdale from New Fair Partners. She's one of the managing partners at that firm. She's a former Whole Foods-er herself. So yeah, these are people you want to meet. And you can only meet these people, well, at least on June 10th and 11th at BevNet Live. If I had a nickel for every time I heard a brand say they met their investor or retailer at BevNet Live, then I'd be a lot richer than I am.

11:12You should ask for a nickel from now on. I'm going to. From here on in, if you meet your investor or your retailer at one of our events, I would like a nickel, please. Yes. She takes Venmo, too. Right, right, right. She prefers$5 bills. Guessing your margins? That's risky. Belay Financial gives CPG brands the clarity to scale smarter, faster, stronger. Get your free inventory e-book by texting TASTE to 55123 and start making data work for you. Vibrant Ingredients is the natural ingredient partner powering food and beverage innovation, delivering flavor, function, and protection through a science-backed portfolio.

12:00Vibrant delivers purpose-driven solutions that help brands create extraordinary experiences. Discover what's possible with Vibrant today. Visit VibrantIngredients.com. We typically have Kine bars at BevNet Live. It almost seems like it's one of the snacks that's always ubiquitous at our events for some reason. Yes? It's a ubiquitous snack. We've had them. I'm pretty sure we typically have them at our events. Maybe not. I don't know. I just always imagine that we have little things to nosh on and munch on, and somehow I always find myself snacking on a Kine bar. It's on Grab and Go, so probably.

12:38Yeah, probably. They're always in our kitchen, too. Yes. Well, there was an interesting story on Nosh, written by our very own Adrian DeLuca, about Kind and how they're introducing a new paper wrapper for their bars. And the question is, is it really worth it? Is it worth the time, money, and resources that they're investing to see these things come to market? And, Melissa, you have some notes and thoughts about all this. Yeah, I thought this was a really interesting article and Nosh. So Kind has done a month long experiment with Whole Foods Market Only. So that was the retailer they chose to do this experiment.

13:16And as you just mentioned, Ray, they introduced a paper wrapping instead of a plastic wrapping. And there's some really interesting findings that came out of that experiment that were written about in the article. One of them, I think this might have been the most interesting one to me, but they did some consumer research and found that the notes of saltiness, bitterness and sweetness were more favorable in the paper wrapped bars. and, you know, kind of can't tell whether that's just a placebo effect and it's just the perception or if maybe there was some impact of the moisture barrier difference between plastic or paper.

13:57And then the other thing, the third thing, too, is that the manufacturer that was responsible for making these bars only did the paper wrap bars. But I don't know. I thought that was super interesting. So many variables. So many variables. It's hard to figure out. It could be anything. But, I mean, I think it's a good example of how perception really can drive taste. Like when you think about drinking something out of glass versus aluminum or plastic, there really is. And, you know, maybe it's the way that the packaging is affecting the product itself, but there's also a perception there. I'm going to start thinking that that diner coffee that I'm drinking is stumped out.

14:31I'm going to try that. I'm going to try it out. The other thing they found that I thought was really interesting, and I think this is something that nobody's really surprised about, is the fact that the sales of the paper products were unaffected. So they didn't see an increase or a decrease in sales until they ran a promo and they found that the paper-wrapped bars did better than the plastic-wrapped bars, but only on promo. So people weren't necessarily willing to go off on a limb and try the paper-wrapped bars without a promo, but when they had the discount, they chose the paper. That's bizarre.

15:08I mean, it could have just looked new and exciting since no offense to kind, it's kind of been around a long time. A hundred percent. Kind of. Yeah, it improved the sort of natural, high-end perception of the product that wasn't necessarily there with the plastic. It also shows the power of brand and brand equity and longevity in a brand that's been around forever in that probably the people who were willing to try it on the promo were also people who were willing to try any new thing, I would guess. In the paper wrap bars, they had a picture of the product, of course, instead of the plastic window.

15:45The window, yeah. But I would guess that everybody who was buying the paper wrapped product had already tried the Kind Bars before and had seen the product. That might be as well. So maybe a combination of people who try new things and people who had already tried and wanted to sell. Yeah. And recognize the brand. I guess I'd have to see these. And this is really fascinating stuff you bring to the table here, Melissa. As Adrian noted in the story, however, the price point of paper wrapper or substrates is still much higher than plastic, and it would take a large-scale industry shift toward paper materials to bring those costs down.

16:20Now, Kind has received interest from many of its retail partners about the possibilities of paper packaging, including those with in-house brands. I do appreciate the fact that Kine, well, more specifically Mars, because Mars bought Kine a few years ago for$5 billion, is undertaking this mission to introduce a more sustainable packaging for their bars. And I do appreciate the leadership role they're taking and the ability of a brand like Kine to have a trickle-down effect so that people aren't necessarily surprised when they're seeing these things, but expecting to see paper wrapping, expecting to see a more sustainable solution.

17:00And it's great for entrepreneurs because if you come to market with a slightly more expensive bar, or I don't know, if you have a confection brand or a candy brand and you have paper packaging and it's a little bit more expensive, well, maybe people will get used to it. People will appreciate it a little more because they'll understand that this is becoming a bit more, I don't want to call it the norm, but a bit more expected, a bit more of an expected thing to see in stores. I've seen so many instances of brands who are, you know, they're doing their R &D, choosing their packaging, and, you know, they'll want to choose a more eco-friendly packaging.

17:37But then when they see A, the cost, and then B, the impact on shelf life, it just sort of becomes unreasonable. So if brands like Kind are leading the way and maybe making materials like this a little bit more accessible because there's more demand, then I think that can only be a good thing. For sure. For some consumers, sustainability is a big thing. For other consumers, purple is a big thing.

18:04No, it's funny. I mean, you know, Gen Z claimed to be all about sustainability, but I don't necessarily know if they're going to invest their hard-earned dollars or maybe the dollars that their moms and dads give them. But anyway, that's just, oh boy. These kids these days, they don't even have jobs. I kid, I kid. No, there was an interesting article that Melissa shared in the New York Times that was titled, A Must for the Next Food Craze? Be Social Media Gorgeous. And they talked about the impact that Ube has had on innovation strategies and how that ingredient is being incorporated into everything from lattes to cannolis to chips to ice cream to all these different things.

18:48And they pointed out that a big part of the reason that ube has been so successful in demand is because of its bright purple color. I would never buy a product. I mean, that's just me, but you can definitely see it. It just looks different. The first time I tried ube was because it was a purple potato. Yeah. Because it's interesting. I don't know. I mean, I think that's spot on though that it's the purple color you know i mean i think the speed or relative speed with which like ube is kind of crossing even in the mainstream i can't think of a good comparison you know it's hard to like think that it's anything but the purple color well the flavor of ube itself it's it's basically a yam it doesn't have a ton of flavor but also the flavor doesn't suck and you You can do stuff with that flavor too.

19:39Right. Like pumpkin, it works in a lot of different places. It's a purple canvas. It's purple. And then it also has a lot of different possibilities. Part of me feels like the fact that matcha is kind of at this mainstream level and it's like, cool, we've got green stuff and purple stuff. It's also not from chemicals, right? I was trying to think of other examples of ingredients that are more about the color than the flavor. I feel like matcha actually has the color, but it also has the flavor. But then I was thinking about butterfly, pea flower. Why isn't that having a moment? Well, as the New York Times or the author of this article points out, so much of this has to do with the ascent of social media and people wanting to share these interesting products, foods and beverages that have these bright colors that pop on your screen.

20:34I mean, nobody wants to see another, I don't know, glazed donut, but maybe they'd want to take a picture of a glazed donut that's filled with ube cream. All right. I'm completely wrong about the glazed donut. Wait, hold on. Ray just invented an ube glazed donut. Nice work, Ray. No. I'll be the first customer. A glazed donut that's stuffed with ube cream. I'm sure it's been done. I'm sure it's been done. I'm sure it's been done, and I'm sure there have been thousands, if not tens of thousands, of photos shared on Instagram and TikTok. Yeah. I mean, in our, I don't know, future selves that we were talking about earlier, where we've already been in New York City, maybe we've already had an ube glazed donut.

21:09It's possible. There's probably a place in like Williamsburg that you can wait in a 20 minute line to get one. After I read that article, I reached out to Jake DeLeon from Phila Manila just to hear what he's experienced. And, you know, it's no surprise that he's also seen a huge uptick in the demand for his Ube coconut spread. Now, his product has no artificial colors or flavors, which actually is quite different than a lot of the other ingredients out there. But he said that there's a hashtag Ube everything that he's seen, you know, a huge increase in. It's got like 500 million views on TikTok.

21:46D2C is growing. Food service. Oh, yeah, you do. So Mike's showing us pictures of Ube glazed donuts. And who knows, maybe some of that product is phila manila, but he certainly confirmed that. And then at Expo West, I was talking to Sweetie Mochi, and they were talking about how one of the most requested mochi flavors that they had was the ube. They have all these other flavors, but so many people wanted to try the ube. Also, we're going to Bear Donut in New York City. I think Amanda's actually wearing the hat right now, which is our producer, Amanda. It's a sign. Yeah, we're going there. They have ube donut.

22:23Okay, great. Well, Ube Donuts, we have none right here. So if you're a maker of Ube Donuts, send us some, please. Yes, please. We have it at headquarters here in Newton, Massachusetts. In the meantime... Time to sample some products. Oh, wait, we have some Ube right here. You know, I was at Whole Foods and I had just read that article and I thought, well, would you look at that? Hawaiian host, Ube White Chocolate... Thanks, Grandma. But would you look at that? Would you look at that? Dear me, Ube White Chocolate Macadamia Nuts. So they are macadamia nuts enrobed with chocolate and then covered in ube powder.

22:57I thought I needed to try these. You sounded like dear sweet Angeline Schneider, rest in peace. Oh my gosh. I'm channeling all of your grandmother. If you say toodaloo at the end of the show, I'm going to think she's possessed you. Get ready. Oh boy. Those look amazing. Yeah, that looks amazing. Yeah, no, that is something that I would love to gram. They are absolutely, really, really beautiful. It's like, you know, how you think of a cocoa dusted. I mean, it looks like fake candy. First of all, Hawaiian hosts are epic macadamia nuts. I don't recall ever hearing or knowing about the brand Hawaiian hosts.

23:33No? No. In Hawaii. When I look them up, it looks like this is one of their newer offerings, but they have these big boxes of macadamia nuts enrobed in chocolate. But this looks like a... Probably they're a Mauna Loa competitor. Sure. But, you know, just as good. So good. And white chocolate and macadamia, I mean. I'm curious, how much was this? I think it was$7.99. Yeah, it's not terrible for macadamia nuts. Relative good deal. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Just for macadamia nuts, you'd probably pay$8. But for ube and white chocolate coated, enrobed, macadamia nuts. I'll have to double check that price. Maybe that's how much I wish they were.

24:09Maybe it was$17.99. Yeah, it might have been. It might have been. That's one of the best things that's ever been brought to the show. That's really good. Well done, Melissa. Well done. Wow. Yeah. Okay. And there's Ray over there going, I can't have that right now. Or he's like, they opened the bag. Melissa was just coughing in there before. I was, I was. And then I sealed it back up. It's been polluted. Yes, yes. It doubles as a barf bag, doesn't it? Ray, just think to yourself, what doesn't kill you makes you strong. Also, crystal ball is coming out again. Ray had a rough time riding the New York City subway.

24:44No, I love the New York City subway. You're just rubbing sanitizer. Ray went into the bubble. I'll tell you. He was a hazmat suit. You look like Dustin Hoffman in Contagion. Is that the right movie? I haven't seen that movie. I don't want to see that movie. No, I had a revelation. I don't know why this was. Maybe it's two years ago about the New York City subway and how awesome it is in comparison to every other form of transportation in New York. I mean, it's pretty amazing. Look at this guy. Good for you, Ray. Awesome. Way to catch up. I never thought to take it because everyone said it's so dirty and crowded and so on and so forth.

25:20Which, you know, I mean, it's kind of, it is, but so what? It's awesome, man. Yeah. I mean, you want to go anywhere? Just hop on. You can get there. Just hop on. You can get there. That should be their new tagline. Plus, you want to go east to west, but anyway. Oh, here we go. Anyway. Native New Yorker over here. All right. We'll move on. We'll move on. Okay. What do you got? You got some Uma juice? You're not wrong. Yeah, I got some Uma juice. What's Uma juice? Well, it's kind of like a, I mean, this feels like a throwback beverage to me. It's like a juice cocktail type drink. I have one, too.