If Gatekeepers Move The Goalposts, Sharpen Your Aim

0:28。 marinades, and seasonings. If it feels like you're navigating a constant evolution in how retail buyers measure traction and determine metrics for success, you're not alone. Jason Burke, for one, has been wrestling with the issue for years. Jason is the founder of The New Primal, a better-for-you meat snack brand that debuted in 2013, and also sauce and seasoning brand Noble Made, which he launched in 2023. The new Primal is best known for its 100 % grass-fed beef sticks, along with all-natural chicken and turkey varieties, and is carried at retailers nationwide, including Whole Foods, Sprouts, Giant, The Fresh Market, and Lazy Acres.

1:14Noble Made markets a range of clean ingredient products, including lower-sugar barbecue sauces, dairy-free buffalo sauces, meat seasonings, and a, quote, sloppy Joseph skillet sauce, many of which are available at the same retailers as the new Primal. Although Jason and his team have built the new Primal into one of the best-selling natural meat snack brands in the U.S., he is consistently evaluating its retail strategy in ways to enhance its product standing among buyers and consumers. In the following interview recorded during a leadership event hosted by Manitri, a global investment firm committed to improving human health through nutrition, and an investor in the new Primal, Jason spoke about how he articulates incremental value to retailers, the impact of mission as a differentiator, why he views multinational and legacy brands as his chief competitors, and how he is increasingly using his personal platform to create and develop authentic relationships.

2:16Relationships with consumers.

2:21Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio right now. I'm honored to be sitting down with Jason Burke, the founder and CEO of The New Primal. Jason, great to see you again. Always good to see you, Ray. Yeah, we had such a great conversation about a year ago, and I'm really excited to sit down with you once again. A bit has changed with the company. You have a new brand that is essentially the sister brand of The New Primal. Yeah, you know, and by the way, last year's interview was one of my favorite conversations. of the entire year. So I do appreciate the time that we spent together and the candid conversation that we had.

2:51Thank you. And I would agree. That was one of my favorite conversations of, I was going to say of 2023, but really of the entire time of doing this podcast. I appreciate that. It means a lot. You know, we didn't just dream up Noble Maid, but we did. Which is your new. Which is the new brand. So the new Primal started as a company looking to take the gas station out of beef jerky. You know, we were, I believe, first to market in grass fed beef jerky snacks. And so that evolved over time into other forms like meat sticks and then mini sticks for kids and things like that. One of the things that happened in that journey is we were trying to scale up beef jerky manufacturing and we had to outsource our marinade production.

3:27And in doing that, we realized that the marinade that we used for our beef jerky made for a pretty darn good everyday cooking sauce. And I happened to show it to a regional Whole Foods buyer who liked it, who took a new job at Whole Foods Global and then became the category manager for condiments and then said, you know, I really like that product. I'd love to innovate with you and bring it in. And so that started this journey of like, well, oh, my gosh, we just crossed the category. And so we didn't want to pass up the opportunity to partner with a retail partner like Whole Foods. But there's big questions around, do we cross category?

4:02Do we create confusion? Are we going to get distracted and all of that? And very candidly, all of those things are true. And as a small brand, I would probably not advise most people attempt to cross a bunch of categories. But, you know, we did. This year, what happened was we had developed a line of sauces, condiments, seasonings, blends, and we sort of kind of straddled the fence with the new Primal, the new Primal Marinades, Noble made by the new Primal, and sort of just kept straddling the fence with this entire process of, you know, do we have one brand? Do we have two brands? And this year we just drew a line in the sand.

4:41And I think, you know, some of that was research-driven, some of that was, you know, consumer behavior-driven, and some of that was just simply branding. And so we felt like the Noble Made brand could stand on its own and probably deserved its own shot within the categories that it serves. And we felt like the new Primal could continue to serve in the Meats Next category. So it's unique. I think it's unique to sort of, you know, kind of have multiple brands within a platform, particularly at our size. But our team has navigated it really well. And so far, it's working. How exactly have they navigated it well?

5:16And how have your retail buyers understood your strategy, understood your vision for the dual brand concept? Yeah. So the team is just extremely resilient. And, you know, I'm really grateful for who we've attracted to our organization. We've found ways to sort of, you know, segregate duties and tasks based on brand. And the team has just really embraced it. You know, they really bought into the vision of, hey, look, we've got two disparate brands here, and we're going to find a way to keep this thing going. I think it's can-do attitude that drives their productivity, that drives the things that they do, that makes it work.

5:51On the flip side, what we found with retail partners is that there is a challenge in communicating a very clear story across both brands. I mean, it's a real challenge. And so we've landed on, you know, we make everyday snacks and pantry staples that people love using real food ingredients. And so it's real food, it's low sugar. And those are sort of like the two pillars that we stand on across both brands. Obviously on meat snacks, we have high protein. So there's a third that we can kind of really stand on, but there's not a lot of protein in buffalo sauce. So, you know, the pillars are really, it's real food ingredients and it's low sugar.

6:27And that sort of, that connects the two. Now, all that said, not every retail partner gets it and not every retail partner understands it. And sometimes what's worked to our benefit is that if, you know, for whatever reason, there's not space, the partnership's not there, they're not reviewing the category or for whatever it might be. And let's just use meat snacks as the example. If Whole Foods isn't reviewing meat snacks for the year, but they are reviewing condiments, I can still have a meeting and I can perhaps get my foot in the door with a line of condiments or a handful of SKUs over here that I have a priority to do.

7:04Right. And then I can go back to them when it's time for meat snacks and show what we're able to do in condiments and show the level of commitment of our partnership, show that we're, you know, we're good partners, we're driving growth, we're driving growth in these categories. And so you should also give us a shot over here. So it really gives us two swings of the bat. And that's where I think from a small brand perspective, I think that's a benefit, gives us some optionality. You know, it cuts both ways, though, because it's still multiple brands. It's still resources spread out, you know, across multiple brands within a small organization.

7:34You get two swings of the bat, but retailers are often, I guess, changing how they evaluate brand story and brand traction. You know, we talked about that this morning. Is it unit sales? Is it dollar sales? Is it innovation? You know, what's driving retailer interest in a particular brand or category? How are you navigating the constant changes and evolution in what retail buyers are expecting, how they measure traction, what their metrics are for success? I think it's one of the most difficult things that we do as early stage brands. But what is helpful is that we're small enough to be very nimble.

8:13So on one hand, it's a real challenge because the tides do sort of shift. And I've been doing this now more than a decade. So we've seen this happen a few different times over the course of my journey. I think we just have to stay true to the fundamentals of business. You and I talked about this in our last conversation. We have to stay true to the fundamentals of business, know where we provide value to the categories and the consumers that we serve, and be able to articulate to those retail partners why we have a right to exist, why we have a right to win, why we're valuable to those categories.

8:51But then, you know, at the end of the day, they also have metrics to measure. And whether that's unit velocity growth or dollar velocity growth or, you know, a certain amount of innovation they need to bring into the sets or it's category share they need to claim. We also then just need to be, you know, we need to do our research and know what they need. And we need to find ways to articulate how we can be helpful to their internal goals. I also think that it's a good opportunity when these metrics or metrics of success sort of, you know, they shift or they become focused on one particular area over another.

9:22I think it's a really good opportunity for, for emerging brands to reassess their priorities and make sure that, hey, you know what, XYZ retailers really focused on this this year. And maybe I don't want to launch new products this year. Maybe I want to wait. I think the trap for founders like me, and I've fallen into it a million times, is you want to be everywhere and you want to be everywhere all at once. And, you know, you got to launch here and you got to be in this retailer and you got to be that retailer. And I just don't think that's true. I think moments like this where there's a little bit of a shift occurring right now where metrics of success are heavily skewed towards unit velocity.

9:58And let's face it, most premium brands are not going to drive the same unit velocity as a conventional brand that's been in the space for 50 years. They don't have the brand awareness. They don't have the loyal consumer base or any of those things. But we've got to be able to articulate where we bring value, whether that's penny profit, whether that's dollar velocity, whether that's an incremental customer that we bring to the category. I think it's incumbent on us to ensure that we're communicating how we provide value, why we have a right to win, and why we should be included in that particular set.

10:31How do you articulate that incremental value that you're bringing to a retailer? How do you talk to them about, hey, that customer isn't coming into your door unless my product is on shelf, or you're going to get more customers coming into your stores because my products aren't shown. Well, today we use data. At our stage today, we purchase data, we partner with organizations like Spins, and we look at the consumer trends. And so we use data to try to tell that story as best we can. You know, early on, it was a lot of gut instinct. And it was a lot of just like rational conversation. And I remember my first ever retail meeting was in Publix.

11:07It was my first ever like time I sat in front of a category manager, which is kind of rare, I think in this space. and all I did in that meeting to sort of differentiate myself is I walked into that meeting, and maybe this isn't unique, but I was selling beef jerky, and I bought a single bag of every product they had in their stores, and then I brought in mine, and I walked into a conference room, and I threw everything down in the middle of the table, and basically started the meeting like that, and I said, is there anything on that table that stands out to you, and he grabbed our product. And he said, this one does.

11:42And it was so clear that the category had just had the same old, same old, everything looked the same, all the branding looked the same. There was no real differentiation or added value to the consumer. And I had to educate that buyer on grass-fed beef. And back then, I think the question was, well, what is grass-fed beef? What does that even mean? And I had to educate why we thought that was coming. And I had statistics that showed the groundswell of grass-fed beef. And then I use my own personal story as an example of, I shop in Publix. I walk by your beef jerky set. I have to drive to another store to go buy a high-protein snack because you don't carry what I need.

12:20If you had it in the store, it saved me the trip. And so I think you have to be creative and scrappy early when you don't have access to or don't have the funds to buy data and look at consumer panels and do all the things that might really truly truly validate your story. And so I think earlier on, you've got to be a little more scrappy with it. So we've done it both ways. Today, we try to use as much data as we can. I wonder how much your mission impacts your ability to get into a retailer and convince a retail buyer that you should be in their stores. I'm looking at your LinkedIn profile and your, I guess, tagline, for lack of a better phrase here, is disrupting a broken food system with delicious, low-sugar pantry staples made from real food.

13:05Disrupting a broken food system is essentially the mission. How much of that makes a difference? I think it makes an enormous difference to retailers that know there's a next-generation consumer that's coming that requires something very different. It's a fine line to walk. You know, on LinkedIn, it's a little bold for me to just flat-out say that we're going to disrupt a broken food system because, you know, they're big legacy brands that in my opinion, some of them, you know, make products that aren't helping consumer health. And so it's my job to come in and create as much disruption as I can.

13:39And hopefully that creates a better outcome for people. And so I have to be careful not to come in and just bash other brands or anything like that, right? That's never part of the strategy. And, you know, I think consumers deserve choice. Just show them the options like you did with a Publix buyer. And that's all I ask for. All I ask for is the opportunity to just give consumers optionality, create true anchor mentality. Again, as a consumer, I will pay a little bit more for products that are a little bit better. And not every consumer is that way, and that's okay, but there are consumers out there like that who are willing to do so, and I just think they deserve options at the shelf.

14:13So we're here at Manitri's Leadership Summit in Vail, and yesterday there was a representative from General Mills, happened to be their M &A chief. And there was a poignant moment in this Q &A when you had said, look, I'm competing against you guys as much as I'm competing against anyone. I'm paying the same slotting fees as you. I'm going after the same retail buyers. And that's got to be so frustrating, I'm sure, for an emerging brand founder, thinking that I'm going up against multi-billion dollar global companies. But sometimes it just feels like you got to put that aside and just kind of stay focused on what you're doing.

14:50Is that, I mean, is that your process? Is that your approach? Have to. And look, it's, I really enjoyed sort of, you know, poking at him a little bit. It was fun, actually. I enjoyed challenging him a little bit on some of their, you know, thesis, but he and I, you know, hugged it out at the end. But, you know, look, the thing is this, yes, two things can be true at the same time. It's okay to acknowledge that my slotting fees aren't any different than the slotting fees, a big legacy brand base. The cost to run promotions, I pay the same ad rates as they do. In almost every case, there's very, very few exceptions where there's a different bar.

15:29And that's okay. I'm not crying about the playing field being unlevel in any way. I mean, that just is what it is. So it's okay to acknowledge that. But I think for me, what I have to keep in mind is that, you know, when I think about like meat snacks, for example, there's some really good meat snacks brands. I mean, they're brands that I admire. Chomps, I admire. I admire what they're building. Country Archer, I think, has done a really fine job in the space that they're doing. I don't consider either of them my competitors. I mean, sure, we sort of compete for the same shelf space to some extent, but to me, they're a part of a rising tide.

16:00My competitor in meat snacks is Slim Jim. You know, if I'm true to my mission, my competitor is like, let me clean up some ingredients. Let me give consumers more choice, more access, more opportunities to make different decisions for themselves. And so, you know, they are my competitor. So when I think about like competition and what like fires me up and gets me going, I'm thinking about the big legacy brands. I'm not thinking about my natural products industry peers at all. But if you want to be everywhere, like Slim Jim is, and if you want to have that kind of visibility and distribution, it helps if you have a strategic partner.

16:38And this is part of the conversation we were having yesterday with the General Mills M &A chief, which is that you know, they're not necessarily looking to acquire companies unless they are at a certain scale. And they're looking at, can we do this in-house? You know, can we incubate our own brands? Can we do it better perhaps than the existing brands that are out there? And I think about what is the true point of differentiation? What's the innovation? What's the defensible proposition that emerging brands have? How much do you think about that in the context of wanting to be, you know, a better for you slim gym that's everywhere.

17:15I go to bed thinking about it. I go to sleep thinking about it, right? It's, it is a constantly thinking about, you know, in a defensible way as you put, like, how do you, how do you sort of state the differentiation and gosh, I might get in trouble, but what I would say about the strategic CPG brands, the ones that might go out and make acquisitions of emerging brands. And what I would say about them is, is that, look, there's no denying what they've created, the success that they've built, the brands that they've built, the iconic legacy brands that will live on in perpetuity. There's no denying that.

17:53I just believe there's a next generation consumer that doesn't give a shit. And I think there's a next generation consumer that isn't loyal to the brand their parents were loyal to. I think that there's a next gen consumer that wants to connect philosophically with the brands that they support. I think there's a next generation consumer that cares about what's on the back of pack. They care about the macronutrients. They care about the ingredient panels. They care about the sustainability of the product, the agriculture. I think that that consumer really cares. And I think they want an authentic connection with the brands they choose to spend their dollars with.

18:28I think that differentiates all of the natural products industry today over some of that. And so I would argue that the big legacy brands, the reason why they make these acquisitions is because typically they can't do what we do in-house or aren't willing to dedicate the resources to what we do in-house or can't move as fast as we might be able to move. You know, the past couple of years, we've seen their appetite for acquisition temper or the goalposts for where they might come on and buy a brand that has to be a little bit larger in scale change. And I think that, you know, COVID and some of the economic ebbs and flows and things like that have impacted that.

19:06But at the end of the day, growth and innovation comes from scrappy brands like ours that come in and choose to disrupt, choose to do really, really hard work. And it's really, really hard to recreate some of the brand enthusiasm that brands like Good Culture can create. Like, is anyone going to get that enthusiastic about cottage cheese? And so I can't see, I don't see a world where a big legacy brand comes in and innovates in a category like that and creates that kind of brand enthusiasm, which creates a long-term consumer. So I think the secret sauce is in the authentic connection to the core consumer.

19:46And the authentic connection that core consumer has to the founder. I don't think anyone knows who the founder of Slim Gym is or cares. They just, you know, it is what it is. But when people think of the new Primal, I think you've done a really good job, Jason, of being in front of the brand, TikTok, LinkedIn, you're starting your own podcast. I mean, all these things. I guess, how do you think about your role in creating that authentic relationship with consumers? Yeah, right. I ignored it for a long time. And I chose to sort of operate in the shadows for a long time. You know, I mean, I would go to conferences and meet my peers and things like that.

20:21But from a from like a social media standpoint and some of these other ways that you sort of get your name in front of people, I did a really bad job of that. And it's just more recently, I would say in the last 24 months, there's been a pivot in my mind that, no, I think people really care. And I've spent an enormous amount of energy specifically in the last six months to really ramp the message that comes from me directly. and yeah, I'm willing to use every channel that's out there that's possible for me to convey this message because I do think people care. And, you know, it's funny, TikTok's really foreign to me, but I've started to, you know, post some things out there and people really like to get behind like the underdog, you know, and people really like to like, I posted something on TikTok that just showed, you know, a picture of our products at Whole Foods and a picture of my face and a funny little video with a caption or whatever.

21:12And I can't tell you the hundreds of people that came on and commented and were like, oh, that's you? I didn't know that was you. And, you know, and we're commenting about, you know, what they liked about the brand and all of those things. And so it just validated that point, I think, with some exception. But by and large, there are brands in this space that should really, really make sure that founder is out in front and articulating their story and articulating as much and as often as possible. And so I sort of, you know, kicked myself out of the nest to go and do that. Well, stay tuned for Jason's podcast, which is launching when?

21:50TBD, but probably the second week of February. Okay. Second week of February. So hopefully people will be able to tune in after they tune in to this interview, but I know you got a flight to catch. So Jason, thank you so much once again for sitting down with me. Always just fantastic information and insights, advice that you share with our community. Really appreciate it. Appreciate you, Ray. Thanks. that brings us to the end of this episode of taste radio thank you so much for listening taste radio is a production of bevnet.com incorporated our audio engineer for taste radio is joe cratchy our technical director is joshua pratt and our video editor is ryan galang our social marketing manager is amanda smerlinski and our designer is amanda huang just a reminder if you like what you hear on taste radio please share the podcast with friends and colleagues and of course we would love it if you could review us on the apple podcast app or your listening platform of choice check us out on instagram our handle is bevnet taste radio as always for questions comments ideas for future podcasts please send us an email to ask at taste radio.com on behalf of the entire taste radio team thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next time

23:07Thank you.