Is A Warning On Booze Misguided? Plus, The 'Fatale' Journey Of An NA Brand.

0:10Hello friends and thanks for tuning into taste radio the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. I'm Ray Lateef, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and I'm with my co-host for this episode, John Craven, Jackie Brugliera, and Mike Schneider. In this episode, we feature an interview with Julie Cielo, the founder of pioneering non-alcoholic cocktail brand Firm Fatal, who discusses the good, the bad, and the complicated of being a first mover. I remember when Julie graced the stage at BevNet Live as part of our new beverage showdown competition. I think that was in 2015.

0:47I hadn't seen a product like that. Of course, now we see thousands of products like that. And of course, we see them even more so because it's dry January, dry January, 2025. Everybody seems to be doing it. Mike is ahead of the game. He's been doing it for some time. He's been doing dry January, October, November, December. Well, I didn't do a dry December. No? I had some cocktails at Christmas and it reminded me why I don't like cocktails. Oh, okay. I like to have too many cocktails. Didn't you have some wine at Bevanette Live, or am I imagining? I did, yeah. Because I kind of vaguely remember going back to the hotel, and you were like slumped over on a park bench.

1:23Oh, jeez. Yeah, I had two sips of wine. I called security. He got rid of you. He was fish-faced. You were in the marina at Marina Del Rey? I was swimming in the marina. I was surfing at 4 a.m. You can't surf in the marina. Yeah, I know. That was the problem. There's no waves, yeah. So drunk, had no idea. I almost thought that John Craven was doing Dry January. I saw your post on Instagram about you mixing some stuff on a Friday night. And I was almost going to DM you and be like, what is with you, man? Just know that I was holding a beer while taking that photo. Oh, jeez. No, our dear chief operating officer, Carolyn Craven, the so-called better half.

2:02Something like that. The better half. I think we can call her the better half. I would definitely call her that or she's going to come for you. I won't be back for the next episode. Yeah, she's going to cut my legs out. But no, she's doing the dry January. Doing the dry January. How's that going? Pretty good so far. We've been, you know, going through a bunch of the products that I had a pile of products that had come in for dry January back in like December. You know, PR companies getting a jump on things. Sure. Yeah, we've been trying to mix some of the products up. So I have found that what works really well, though, real pro tip here for dry January users is substitute any sort of sparkling water with like Magic Cactus or Breeze.

2:48Okay. Or another cannabis beverage and you'll have something that works pretty good. California sober January is what you're saying. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Jackie, how's your January going? So far, so good. I've went into it thinking I'm going to do a damp January. So far, it's been dry and I've just been, you know, drinking water. But I think by next week, I might be craving a little bit more, you know, of a buzz. Huh? Yeah. You might be craving some dampness. Yes. Some dampness or, you know, California buzz. Okay. Well, there's the, what is it? Quitter's Friday or whatever. We'll have a couple more meetings, Jackie.

3:26I'll have you wanting some alcohol. Oh, no. I have a feeling that some folks, even those who are doing dry January, will be imbibing toward the end of the month. That's when a couple of big events are taking place, at least ones that we're attending. Beginning with the Winter Fancy Food Show in Las Vegas. Love that show. It is happening beginning on Sunday, January 19th and going through Tuesday, January 21st. John will be there on Sunday and Monday. I'll be there on Monday. Very excited for that show. First time I've been there in a couple of years. Very easy show to navigate. It's one hall. It's a brand new hall in the Las Vegas Convention Center.

4:05You can walk in about a day, day and a half. I'm really excited to see folks. If you are attending, if you're exhibiting, if you're walking the show floor, please let us know. Send me a note. rlatif at bevnet.com. You can tell John as well. Just send us a note at askatasteradio.com. DM us on the LinkedIn's and the Grams. You guys know how to do it. the following day, Tuesday, January 21st, John, myself, Jackie, and the WCB crew, that's the West Coast branch crew, will be at Naturally San Diego's exclusive pre-party for the UNFI Spring and Summer Show. It's happening from 6 to 9 p.m. at Venue 808.

4:44Networking celebration, 20 buyers, UNFI staff, and of course, BevNet will be on hand. Hey, we're a sponsor. We are a sponsor. We are. Our sponsorship. We love, we love Naturally San Diego. We do a bunch of stuff with them, including this event. Very excited to see folks there. I'll be doing interviews with attendees. So if you are attending, please let us know. We would love to sit down with you. We're going to be doing some short interviews. We're doing some long interviews. We're doing some social media content. We're doing everything for three hours. We want to know who you are, what you're doing, what you're up to, because we're going to be.

5:18We want to know your shoe size. Recording all that stuff. Yeah. I would not want your shoe size. What you got for Christmas. We want your free stickers. I don't know. Your swag. Your swag. Your swag. Yes. Some samples. And just to let you know, if you're a Naturally San Diego member, you can get in for$95. Non-members,$115. Always save money. $20. Goes a long way. $20 might buy you a sixer. A sixer of Patagonia Provisions. Kern's new Kenza Golden Brew. It's a non-alcoholic brew that they partnered with Deschutes Brewery on. I love everything that Patagonia Provisions is doing. They came up with a bunch of new products.

5:54They sent me some, including this Kernza Golden Brew. Did it come with a free backpack, Ray? No, I wish it did, but it did not. It's so sad. Okay. Remember that time we got backpacks? Yeah, we got free backpacks. And then COVID happened like a month later. So karma's kind of a bitch there. But anyway. In honor of Dry General, I figured I'd pop these out. Sorry, Jackie, as always. Kernza. So as I mentioned, Patagonia Provisions and DeFute made these with Kernza. Kernza, according to the company, is a soil-saving, carbon-capturing perennial grain. They also made it with organic Helios and Adena hops, certified organic malted to row barley, and regenerative organic certified rye.

6:33This whole thing, the beer itself is USDA certified organic. That is good. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited to try this. I chugged it because it said it was wildly drinkable. That's the reason you chugged it? Yeah. I got to say, this packaging is giving mad other brand vibes, too. It doesn't look a little bit like it goes right next to Athletica. It's Athletic-ish, but I think it's fine because I think that's kind of what people are expecting to see when they want a non-alcoholic brew. I do say that if I tried this without knowing it's not out I would think it's just a regular beer which is great I would say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and also this tastes great I mean Deschutes from my days of drinking Deschutes beer I know you can do no wrong and this is this is phenomenal Deschutes based in the great city of Bend Oregon is this a limited release or this is going to be?

7:33No, this was actually launched in December and this is my first time trying this. Um, excuse me. It was launched in September, not December. I've been waiting for samples of this. I, now I know where they went. Yes. They went redirected to Ray's house. Yes. They're actually in my, uh, I keep them just like in the glove box of your car. No, no, no. I keep them in the crawl space under my porch. So Patagonia makes amazing tinned seafood products. They have a new sardine flavor. It's sardines and tomato sauce. I don't have the tomato sauce one with me i forgot it i'm sorry inspired by putinesca uh yeah you lost you lost me at sardines okay sorry yeah there you go i was gonna bring some project it wasn't that he lost oh jeez no the putinesca i love it if it was just a can of putinesca i'd eat that well you can try it with tomato sauce capers onions olives and garlic you can eat it straight from the can i tried these sardines and beans the other day sardines plus black beans corn and salsa it's delicious i just love the prime sardines and beans a combination you never think of but i feel like patagonia does a really good job of just being very specific with the products they're launching like as someone that's hikes a lot like these are all things that i would be able to bring hiking like a non-alc beer i always want a beer at the end of the trail and now i can use their beer in dry january see you have the proper use for it ray on the other hand i've seen him probably he's going to do this on the flight to vegas sitting in the middle seat just reaches in his bag he cracks open his can of sardines sitting in the middle seat you got the wrong guy is seat six six a just want to be very clear about that he's that guy mashing the tv in your headrest the whole time anyway no i i really do respect and love everything that patagonia Provisions is doing.

9:18I sat down with the CEO of Patagonia, the entire company, Ryan Gellert, last year at Expo West 2024. And he and I, alongside Paul Lightfoot, who is the GM of Patagonia Provisions, we chatted about the vision, the execution, everything that they're trying to do and how it is very tied to their ideals and their focus for Patagonia, the apparel company. So if you have an opportunity to listen to it, it's called Patagonia's CEO Shares the Playbook on Preservation and Provisions. You can find it on Tasteradio.com. And you don't even need to be a VIP to watch or listen to that episode. I can't believe you've been hiding this from us.

10:01This is phenomenal. It just came in. Okay, he's talking about the beer. The beer. Yes. But I do want to note that if you are a Taste Radio VIP, you will be one of our best friends, as in you will be a friend who we consider the best. Taste Radio VIP enables you to receive monthly newsletters that keep you up to date on everything going on with the podcast, our live events, our meetups, where we're going to be, etc. It also gives you a whole bunch of information about my hopes and dreams. And, you know, these are things that I know people want to know more about. like what's inside you, Ray Latif?

10:37And how can I get in there? So this is really selling it. How can I get in there? Yeah, this is really selling it. No, in all seriousness, it's a really good way for us to stay in touch with you, to share opportunities for you to be on the podcast, to highlight what you're doing. Just head to tasteradio.com slash VIP to sign up. It'll take two minutes to do so. And once again, you'll be one of our best friends. Ray shares his goals for 2025, his New Year's resolution.

11:07We can guarantee that Jackie edits all the weird shit that Ray tries to put in those. Cut like 20 % of the football jargon. Yeah, she just deleted like 80 % and, you know. Maybe insert something about women's basketball, you know. Okay, here. You know what? Here, I'll explain. Picture of Mike chained to his desk. In our most recent newsletter, I will explain, and this is in the newsletter. I'm looking at it right now. Now, why, when I was asked in college what I wanted to do after graduation, I said I wanted to start a brand of Better For You sodas. True story. So read all about it in the newsletter.

11:42Oh, you got me on the hook. I'm going to have to read it. Yeah, it's a fun story. It's a fun story. I think she was being sincere, but I don't know for sure. I don't think so. I guess you'll find out next week. Exactly. Well done, Jackie. Well done. I like this new Jackie for 2025. The sarcastic Jackie? The sardonic Jackie? A bit of evil. Here, I'll throw one back at you. You know, I was really surprised about this. And if you want to be kind of skeptical and cynical about something, I would suggest this. So it turns out that Native, which is a simple, clean and effective personal care company, according to this press release, has partnered with two very well-known beverage brands.

12:27Haritos and Dunkin' of all brands to bring you, I can't even explain this, apparently products that smell like Dunkin' Donuts coffee and Haritos soda. So I'm reading from this press release about the Haritos partnership inspired by the juiciest flavors, good Lord, bringing refreshments from the Fiesta to your shower routine. The collection includes deodorant, good God, body wash, hand and body lotion, shampoo and conditioner in a variety of fruity scents. Okay. It's available exclusively at nativecos.com and at Target. Now we wouldn't be talking about this unless I saw this and they do the exact same damn thing with Dunkin' Donuts, except the Dunkin' Donuts stuff is available at Walmart exclusively.

13:13So, uh, well, and, uh, and their website. I mean, at least you'll smell delicious. Yeah. The Dunkin' Donuts stuff, you have a strawberry frosted, a vanilla sprinkles, a blueberry cobbler and a Boston cream. You have a Boston cream that you can get in deodorant, shampoo, conditioner, and body wash. So it's just the cream and the shampoo. I like it. What? It's the cream from the Boston cream. Can you imagine washing it in here with Boston cream? I mean, don't do that, please. Please try it and report back, Ray. Okay. No, I'm not going to try this. I can't imagine. I mentioned this to you guys last week.

13:44I can't imagine why Native, which is a pretty well-respected brand within the natural channel, among natural channel consumers, would partner with a soda brand and a coffee brand, a coffee brand Dunkin' Donuts of all coffee brands. I can't, I don't know. I don't get it. And it's pretty expensive too. Like I think I bought a two-pack other deodorant. It was 15 bucks, you know, and I don't know if I want to smell like Dunkin' Donuts and Jarritos. Yeah. Are you going to end up with like birds trying to peck at your hair and stuff if you're if your hair smells like fost and cream donut sugar these companies sell like fruit flavored stuff i mean natives owned by procter and gamble anyway so you know big company it seems like the big company playbook a little bit okay do some collaborations with other big brands and you know it's effective we're talking about it so we wouldn't be talking about it if they had a new like i don't know like one of those things flavor or something okay well scent whatever.

14:43Okay. I guess I would just maybe guess that they would go for more premium brands to partner with rather than Dunkin' Donuts and burritos. I mean, tasty things, but, you know, maybe not like... You notice she moved away from Boston before she started talking crap about Dunkin' Donuts. I used to drink a lot of Dunkin' Donuts. Yeah, I was going to say, you would not say that if you were standing here. No, clearly they're trying to reach out to more mainstream consumers. The CEO of Native in this press release, specifically about the Dunkin', noted that together we're elevating everyday essentials with a lighthearted touch to bring joy into personal care and fuel your routine.

15:20I feel like he's speaking to the Walmart consumer directly and saying, hey, if you haven't considered Native, but you buy Dunkin' Donuts, you buy Dunkin' Donuts coffee, you know, consider us. This is an opportunity for you to consider us. I mean, to be honest, Dunks has probably better brand recognition than Native. That's how you know he's from Boston. He calls it Dunks. Dunks. I mean, it literally is called Dunks now. No. Yes. They didn't change their name. It's Dunkin'. Well, whatever. I mean, they dropped a donut. Who cares what it's called? True or false? John Craven has been behind the counter at a Dunkin' Donuts.

15:53True. I know he did that. I fought the manager. I climbed over the counter. No, John. I paid my dues in dining services. Slinging coffee and ice cream. Okay. So I think what needs to happen here, though, is we need to order some of this stuff. And when I worked there, we could definitely have used a little more soap. I'm just saying. Jeez, I don't even want to think about it. Oh, man. We're going to have to order this stuff. And by the way, Jackie, the deodorant, the Dunkin' Donuts one, you get one for 13 bucks. The body wash is 10, shampoo is 10, conditioner is 10, hand and body lotion is 14.

16:31So maybe we buy some of this stuff, use it for a week, see how our families feel about this, see how each other feel about this. Yeah, and then kind of go from there. No? Sure. Is it a deal? Yeah, go for it. I'm down for it. We'll do a challenge. We'll do a seven-day challenge. I'd like to know if anyone would even notice that you smell like Dunkin' Donuts. Yeah. Probably not. I don't know. Maybe it's just like, you know, like the body wash that's just vanilla sugar, you know? It's just like a normal scent, but they Dunkify it. Last week, the Surgeon General of the United States called for adding a cancer risk to health warning labels on alcoholic beverages and called for, quote, a reassessment of the guideline limits for alcohol consumption to account for cancer risk.

17:20And I don't think a lot of folks saw this coming. I know there was a lot of talk about alcohol leading up to the new year because of a variety of reasons or for a variety of reasons. There was a report that came out a couple of weeks prior to the new year that talked about the potential health benefits of drinking alcohol, at least a limited amount weekly. And so, you know, you think about the really big brands out there and how they're affected. You think about some of the smaller brands. You think about how consumers may rethink alcohol consumption. And at the end of the day, I kind of see this as being a short-term impact more than a long-term consequential statement or assessment of alcohol.

18:05Yeah, I feel like the timing of this is impeccably bad, I would say. Just in that, you know, we're about to have a new administration come in and this seems like, you know, putting it out before another event that is going to make people forget that this probably ever happened. Also, just as maybe a cynic of how our system works with lobbying and whatnot, I think the chances of this happening are probably near zero anytime soon. And beyond that, I don't know, you know, there are other countries that have warnings on alcohol and it's not like people have stopped consuming alcohol. It's pretty different than like tobacco where, you know, it's on a package that people hold and carry as opposed to like, I don't know, it's probably if you go into a bar and order a beer, like one of those signs, like, you know, the ones in California, outside of everywhere that say there might be cancer causing things.

19:05does that really dissuade anyone? You know, probably not. Or the, or your favorite, the, uh, don't go in the hot tub if you have active diarrhea, which I know has never, never stopped you, Ray. But, um, you know, I think it's, it's just one of those things that it, it, it seems so far away to believe that that will happen right now. Yeah. I think that. Why Ray? Well, that's, uh, why are you doing that? Well, because I... Sorry, Ray. No, it's okay. I took a photo of the hot tub at the Marriott in Anaheim. No, you stole the sign. No, I didn't steal the sign. Was that Jeff Kleiman? No, Jeff stole the sign.

19:41But it was a different kind of sign that we're talking about. But no, I think as funny as that is, I think there was some truth there. I mean... There's some truth to what you do. I think there's... Your habits? Somehow none of this is going to be cut and I know how. Ray goes in with a bottle of booze with a warning and some cigarettes too. No rules. I mean, at the end of the day, like the risks of smoking tobacco have dramatically impacted the sale of and consumption over use of tobacco in this country. You know, that took decades and maybe in decades we will see. It did, but I think the other difference with tobacco versus alcohol is that the direct and immediate impact on others of you smoking a cigarette in a public place and how it impacts me, who's not, is instantaneous.

20:34Whereas if you're going to get cancer from having too many drinks, do I give a crap that you're sitting next to me slugging down whatever? No, I don't. You actually have to get up and punch somebody for it to impact them. Well, or get in a car, you know. Or something like that. Yeah. I mean, do something physical to the other person for it to impact them. For sure. For sure. Well, the big beverage alcohol companies took a bit of a hit in terms of their stock prices and their value, so to speak. But again, I don't see this as being a long-term impactful decision. Memory is short now. And you might be right, John, in that once a new administration comes in, which ironically probably will be sympathetic to this statement.

21:20I just don't see it being the kind of thing that's going to really shatter Americans' perspective on alcohol. I mean, look, I put it in the same camp of, you know, federal legalization of marijuana. It's just one of those things that I think constantly falls in the lower tier of what the most pressing priorities are at any point in time. So it constantly like, will it get talked about again? Probably. But I just feel like it's one of those things that like actually putting these things in action is sort of complicated. It's going to have a lot of people that don't want it. It's going to have certainly, again, the lobbyists and whatnot, which, you know, beverage alcohol is strong in this country.

22:04So. And to be clear, yes, Congress will have to act to add that. So I mean, maybe someday. And I'm not saying it's not the right thing to do at some point, but it just isn't like an immediate freak out type of thing. I'm sure stocks will recover. And I feel like as far as like consumers and what they're thinking, people are already, they already know that alcohol is not the best thing for them. So I don't think that they're going to be spooked by this one, you know, piece of news or this one piece of legislation. It's just like, you know, everyone has vices and what's the lesser evil? I mean, people transition from cigarettes to now they're vaping and there's always going to be something.

22:44And I think people are just going to try and pick the best option for them. Well, in Mexico, I recall they added a warning label to sodas, didn't they? Because of the amount of sugar that is in sodas. Yeah. A lot of places have it on sugary stuff. Yeah. And I think, you know, yes, you should not consume too much alcohol, But for me, just being in this country as an American, I think obesity is perhaps a bigger issue. And the amount of sugar that people consume on a daily basis would be, for me, the target. But anyway. We'll see. We'll see, indeed. We just picked a more obvious enemy, that's all.

23:19There you go. Is it time to try products? Yeah, there's lots of products to try. I have Caffeined. It's a new startup beverage. I believe that they are in like Juicet Grocery right now. it's c-a-f-i-e-n-d and they have these cute little like caffeine fruits on the front so they have a little watermelon guy and a little pineapple guy and it says kindly geeked so the whole idea is that it's an elated tea it's like low caffeine 50 milligrams i believe from black tea and then it has a bunch of adaptogens like l-theanine ashwagandha it also has like lion's mane powder and marshmallow root powder. How do you spell it again?

23:59It is C-A-F-I-E-N-D. Caffeined, interesting. And it's definitely, you know, early stages. I think they have like some things to evolve on the packaging. Some of the call-outs are like that are important are on the back. It's a black and white can versus, you know, maybe doing some more color call-outs based on the flavor rather than just these little guys in the front. And you have to look at the back to actually see what's in it. like the adaptogens and all the goodies because the ingredients are actually really great. And the font's not doing them any favors either. Like from our vantage point here, like that's the equivalent of it being on shelf, I'd say.

24:37And it's, is it tasty? Is it like one of those things where the liquid's great and, you know, they can make the package tweaks? Yeah. It's nice and light. It's like a nice light, like kind of juicy tea. So the taste is there. Let's get them on the horn and help them out. The ingredients are there. I think just some package updates and they have all the, you know, trending adaptogens and things that people are looking forward to. Oh, caffeine. I get it. I saw the label and I was just like, okay. Those little guys should be a little more evil looking, you know? Yeah. They're too friendly. They're too friendly.

25:17So slow. You did go to BU, so it's okay. Oh, that's also in the newsletter. Oh, yeah. Yes. All right. Well, moving on. I've got a great product. You know, when you get a product press release and you're kind of like, is that real? Are they ever going to make that? Well, that's what Barbarian Water is here, which has a very unique ingredient I have not seen before. 50 milligrams of bovine blood powder. I got to be honest, because I received that same outreach from the same PR person and I declined samples. Well, I did not. I got you plenty here. Oh, God. This is the Bleed to death blood orange flavor Bring it I have brought a bottle of water too Ray's gonna pours on so there's no extra Things in here 750 milligrams of sodium That's a lot of sodium Look at that I don't understand what it is 50 milligrams of potassium 60 milligrams of magnesium Is that a calcal reaction happening there?

26:18It looks like you're making a shake I added water in it Oh, my. It's like frothy? What? Yes. It definitely looks like a. It looks like a. Like a frap. One of those Ramos fizz cocktails. I got to try this. I mean, it smells like orange. It's got stevia in it, too. Slide that down here. Oh, my God. I'm getting some of the. No. Okay. I mean. I inhaled some of the powder. Oh, gosh. I'm not going to lie. It's hard to get past the thought of bovine blood powder. Not for me. I don't know if 50 milligrams is an efficacious dose or not, but. I just feel like water is the wrong term for this. It doesn't look like water.

26:54Can I have some water, please? There is some water. I mean, once you get past the head of the beverage, it's watery. All roads bleed through a barbarian. That's the tagline. What are the benefits? What are they claiming the reason you need this in your life? Oh, here we go. Learn the barbarian. Earn the barbarian. Uncage your mother effing barbarian. there's a lot of there's a lot of f words on this thing it's giving me very bro vibes i mean it clearly is like a hydration product it's promoting sodium potassium magnesium certainly i think ingredients with merit in here the flavor is a little i don't i just don't know about that weird foam the foam is kind of where i'm getting hung up i am yeah it's very easy to get hung up on the foam it looks like cinnamon what is that flavor also i don't think blood i don't think barbarians consume stevia leaf another one that i was like is this for real this is the new ai energy drink from um those of you who probably remember bang energy drink jackowalk's new company i think there's like four flavors i've got a wow peach and a grape anyone sure that was definitely designed on ai oh god we keep doing this we got to have a better way i like i should have put it on the side and roll it but yeah i want to see mike's flavor reaction here so it's just called ai energy it's got jack on the side too i love it well jack was on the side of the bank cans wasn't he don't recall unfortunately oh wow that is this is powerful cheers jack so what what flavor is that you're drinking uh mike great oh he's got peach i have grape wow that's a lot of peach why does it say 18 plus only are you not supposed to be drinking this if you're a younger consumer i Yeah, what's in it?

28:34Well, I mean, he's maybe trying to learn from the past here, but, I mean, it's labeled as a supplement. I can't read how much caffeine's in this. I'm sure it's a lot. Ooh, it's got my favorite sodium benzoate. Taking the high road. You probably shouldn't be selling this to people under 18. Justin Procknow would have or take some issue with calling it a drink, which the Instagram handle is AI Energy Drink, and having a supplements facts panel on there. I mean, my only thing with the name is that trying to find this drink in a search for AI and energy probably are going to yield something different than this drink.

29:14And there's a lot of noise around the phrase AI, which is being used on everything. Right. So I kind of wish it had like another word to it. But, you know, we'll see. I would never. I'm sure, you know, knowing what Jack is capable of, this will at least be it'll be interesting. And it'll be something that I'm sure he'll be out there pounding the pavement, trying to make this thing work. So good luck to him for sure. I'm sure it'll be interesting for us to cover. And I think we already, we just covered an interview with him. You asked me how it tastes. Tastes good. Okay. Yeah, I mean, these are like candy, kind of candy-like approachable flavors.