Is Big Food Catching Up To Startups? And, A Legend Signs Off.

14:26Ray Latif:No, you'd be surprised. You're the operator. I am the operator The operator of Taste Radio That's your new job title I like that What's my opening line? Ray is neither a doctor nor a doctor I'm Ray Latif, the operator of Taste Radio I'm Dr. Ray Latif When you say job title Operator, I think forklift So I love that you put Taste Radio On the same level

14:51Mike Schneider:Well, I was shoveling snow this morning Still You used a forklift over there? No No, no. I wish I had a snowblower. I don't have one of those.

14:59Ray Latif:Your leaf blower was broken for snow removal? My flamethrower was broken. Flamethrower. That's what you need to melt all this damn snow. Yeah. John and I have considered this.

15:08Mike Schneider:You know, Expo West, I know we just talked about the show, and one of the halls I don't visit as often as I probably should is Hall A. You know Hall A? So it's the main level? Yeah, main level. It's the biggest. Yeah, exactly. Big boos. Typically, it's the exhibit hall where humongous big food and beverage companies exhibit super brands. I might roam the aisles this year because it feels like big food might start to be catching up with entrepreneurial brands. I mean, case in point, so Monica Watrous, our dear colleague, wrote a recent article on NOSH about how PepsiCo is introducing a bunch of new, better-for-you products that seem in line with current trends, including Doritos protein chips.

15:58Mike Schneider:Now, I know this is not groundbreaking, but it's something. Smart food, fiber pop, popcorn, SunChips fiber. I'm not saying that they are, you know, at the level of or moving at the speed of entrepreneurial brands. I'm just saying they're a little bit faster than they had been in the past.

16:13Ray Latif:Sure. I mean, I think these are pretty obvious low-risk trends that right now seem like they can be kind of applied to anything. I mean, I wouldn't really say they're catching up, though, in that what you're largely talking about is just enhancing the existing product, which at its core is not necessarily premium. so to some extent like if you take a super processed like mainstream product that's trying to compete with i don't know more wholesome better for you brands this kind of i don't know maybe at a minimum makes a bit of a facade that makes these legacy brands seem innovative or better for you but i don't know i just think the consumer is gonna see through that a little bit I wonder.

16:59Mike Schneider:I mean, those are good examples of legacy brands that people might see through. They might say, oh, I know Doritos. If you add protein to it, screw it. How much better could it be for me? But ConAgra also introduced a couple new products, and these were all announced during the Cagney conference. ConAgra brands introduced Angie's Boom Chicka Pop popcorn cooked in avocado oil. Again, not a stretch. But they also introduced a new line of snack fries called Rebel Roots. So it's a corn and potato-based snack made with beef tallow. Come on. I was going to say, why not just use beef tallow on everything?

17:33Mike Schneider:No, but that's the thing. Beef tallow.

17:35Ray Latif:We talked about that last time.

17:36Mike Schneider:Well, beef tallow is a stretch for me. I don't think I'm necessarily interested in that. I'm kind of surprised that a big brand or at least a big company is getting into that kind of business. I also will say this, John, you know, there had been maybe a little bit of leeway or at least an extra few months, perhaps, that small brands or emerging brands would have to introduce their products like a, you know, snack brand made with beef tallow or, you know. Hey, beef tallow sounds a lot better than lard. I'm just saying. Right, but have you seen a snack fries brand or a corn and potato-based snack brand that is, that's using beef tallow at this point?

18:16Ray Latif:Snack brand? Yeah. Yeah. Which ones? I don't know. We just had a whole slew of tortilla chips that were in beef tallow.

18:23Mike Schneider:Which ones?

18:24Ray Latif:Smaller brands. Okay, perhaps. There's one on Nosh that was covered. Definitely seen another on Instagram.

18:29Mike Schneider:I just wonder if the speed to market thing is less of an advantage for smaller brands than it had been in the past. That's what I'm trying to say. Don't think so.

18:36John Craven:I think also with big CPG, they're always just throwing stuff out at the wall and seeing what sticks. I mean, for example, Smartfood, they came out with Fiber Pop and they have a flavor toffee and sea salt. Like that just doesn't sound good. Like they're just like, let's make this fiber for a brand that's not really known for being better for you. It just feels like a disconnect.

18:57Ray Latif:I don't think they're necessarily throwing stuff at the wall. I think they're traditionally just slower and more like the laggards in the sense that like someone else has to go out there and prove that these things are wanted by the consumer. And also their ability, just product innovation cycles are more complicated and probably have more layers, which I'm not crapping on what they're doing. It's just that that's a more methodical kind of, I don't know, approach than your typical, like, you know, entrepreneur who's like, hey, I really like making this at home or some other type of thing. but i do think that you know bigger cpg getting into the fiber and protein game is probably good for other brands that are you know downstream and smaller just in you know as we've talked about before like they're going to put money behind this in terms of like consumer education and trying to create demand and like you know we've seen how that plays out before which is other brands are going to benefit you know whoever's out there trying to promote this stuff now on their own like it's not gonna be a bad thing when someone else pours tons of money

20:06John Craven:into it yeah and fiber i think is still it's trending but it's still not sexy so i think like it needs some marketing help on that front with like mainstream consumers no i i would agree that

20:18Ray Latif:it has a very different obviously both have a positive health benefit but the positive health benefit of fiber is kind of a it's weird to talk about sure it's not about gains protein you're I'm getting buff and fit.

20:32John Craven:Fiber, it's just like, yeah, you just don't talk about it.

20:35Ray Latif:You're like, man, my gut, it's just stuff going right through it.

20:37John Craven:I just went to the bathroom multiple times. It was good. Good day. Oh, Jesus. There we go. We're going to miss that. That was a Ray impersonation, to be clear?

20:48Ray Latif:Certainly not. She's going for it on the last day. Yeah, well. I mean, you can't get canceled when you've canceled yourself. Yeah. It would take a lot for Jack to be canceled. Yeah. Yeah.

21:00Mike Schneider:Well, a lot of these companies that used to have sort of skunk works divisions and innovation divisions and stuff like that, those seem to have gone by the wayside. And now everything is done at a more corporate level, I would say.

21:11Ray Latif:Well, I mean, look, it's just part of the cycle. Like you can't have this division that's kind of doing cool, innovative stuff separate from your core for like too long. It's also not going to change the fact that the entire industry is a lab for the strategics and they're watching what's happening and they're trying to figure out if they can either should either do it themselves acquire someone or do both in the case of pepsi like with poppy with their prebiotic sodas and then buying poppy and keeping poppy as

21:42Mike Schneider:a going concern well until they fix their i guess branding to not look as corporate as it is because that's I mean that's how you can tell right I mean obviously you've known some of these brands forever and so do you trust that a big brand is actually going to have something that's truly

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23:30Mike Schneider:Well, these small brands that I'm looking at right now, there's one that's called Froobies and one that's called Crunch Club. Crunch Club is a maker of crunchy protein crisps. They have 21 grams of protein and 8 grams of fiber per 1.5-ounce pouch. These Froobies are fruit snacks. This one is a citrus mango flavor. 5 grams of protein, 4 grams of fiber, 4 grams of protein, 0 grams of added sugar per 1-ounce pouch. You know Crunch Club is made by... Yes, that's what I'm saying. Lasso food. Yeah. So there's a company called Lasso. Lasso is basically a tech company that's coming out with new food concepts, including these two.

24:11Mike Schneider:They have the specialized equipment and technology that helps them create snacks and food that are high in protein and high in fiber in particular. Now, they both, again, look like these very early stage upstart brands that you would see at an Erewhon or a pop-up grocer or something like that.

24:32Ray Latif:Well, they're not exactly Mitsubishi. No.

24:35Mike Schneider:But I think, you know, to the point we were all talking about, these definitely feel like they are more trustworthy than, at least for consumers looking for better for you products. These might feel a little bit more trustworthy than the legacy brands. So that's still the advantage, I think, that these smaller brands have.

24:52Ray Latif:I just opened the Froobies because on the back it says, if you were a robot, what robot stuff would you do? Also, how do you know you're not a robot?

25:01Mike Schneider:Oh, mango snacks. Yeah. You guys are going to be full of protein and fiber by the time this is all said and done. These are great. So yeah, I guess what I'm saying is I think if speed to market isn't necessarily the advantage that smaller brands had in the past, perhaps branding and design can still be that differentiator in a way that the bigger brands still haven't caught up to. Last thing I want to talk about is I saw this other story on Anosh about how Tia Lupita is a maker of Mexican-inspired foods. They make chips. They had made a traditional salsa called a salsa hamacha, which is delicious.

25:44Mike Schneider:They have gotten into the creamy hot sauce and Mexican barbecue sauce category. There's really no Mexican barbecue sauce category. I'm sure that's the first one I've seen. Is that even a thing? It is a thing now. No, but I'm saying, was it a thing?

25:57Ray Latif:What do you mean? Did they just invent it?

25:59Mike Schneider:They may have just invented it, especially after the Bachans'$400 million exit. I would have started a barbecue sauce.

26:04Ray Latif:I mean, look, their stuff is all solid. I can't wait to try that stuff.

26:08Mike Schneider:Yeah. But it feels like everything is becoming mayo-ified. Have you noticed this? Hot sauce. Everything is like this. Just all these sauces on everything. And it feels like everyone loves mayo. They just don't want to say it. So now everything's become rebranded and repositioned as creamy condiments. Have you noticed this? Or aioli? Aioli. but like aioli's mayo yeah so but how is this how is this just something that's happening now

26:31John Craven:people like it don't be later bro yeah it sounds tastier i don't know you think of mayo and you think of like crappy mayo on like white bread with like ham and cheese ray's a miracle whip guy no

26:42Mike Schneider:actually i used some hot sauce some creamy hot sauce this morning actually on my breakfast sandwich and it was delicious i just never would have thought to use something like that in the past. And I think it's because I never would have considered mayo on my breakfast sandwich. And essentially what I was putting on there was that plus some hot sauce or hot sauce mixed with mayo. It's a versatile ingredient. Yes. Yes. But interesting to see where this all goes, because it feels like the market is getting pretty saturated pretty quickly with these creamy condiments. All right. Mike has been chomping at the bit to talk about this coffee.

27:14Ray Latif:Yeah, it's Nguyen Vietnamese coffee, cinnamon coconut latte. We got some Ear of the Fire Horse Hong Bao with it, red envelopes, with some cool little Robusta dollars in it, Robusta bucks in it. I'm going in and trying for the first time here. What flavor is that? Heaven. Sorry, cinnamon coconut latte, 70 milligrams of caffeine, plant-based milk, 90 calories. It's coconut milk. It's awesome.

27:45Mike Schneider:I like their brand refresh. I pointed that out on Instagram like a month or two ago. It looks really good. Oh, the cinnamon just keeps coming. This is awesome. Nice. You can get that at Whole Foods? Yes. Nice. Well, I got to shout out our dear friend, J.M. Guthrie, who sent us some of his fuzzy coffee. Sparkling coffee. A sparkling coffee, yes. This is their unsweet black variety. Positioned as both a coffee and an energy kind of beverage.

28:08Ray Latif:We also got sent some beans from North Shore Roasters who are from the South and who actually do the form, happen to do the formulation for Fuzzy.

28:18Mike Schneider:Great, great coffee. Yeah, I love what they're doing here. This is also made with Lion's Mane, ginseng, L-theanine. Sparkling coffee is not something that you'll commonly see, which is why I like what they're doing. Kind of differentiate themselves in that very difficult space.

28:33Ray Latif:Yeah, that stuff's tasty.

28:34Mike Schneider:It certainly is. This last brand I want to shout out is Phoenicia Diner's new buttermilk pancake mix. Phoenicia Diner is a, well, restaurant that's been around for a long time. Let me take a guess here. Yes. They're based in Phoenicia, New York, which is in the Catskills. And they recently got into the CPG game. Love what they're doing here. It looks very special. See, it comes in this brown bag with sort of... A ripcord? A ripcord. No, sorry. Yes. definitely doesn't look like your everyday buttermilk pancake mix but this thing is the real deal well done jackie before we sign off anything else you got to talk about i have a

29:13John Craven:couple products i have ale smith's new hop tails it's a cocktail with hop water which is really cool so it's vodka with sparkling water hops and natural flavors five percent alcohol which i feel like is pretty good for a cocktail it's low and i love hop water and i do spike it occasionally so I think it's kind of smart on their half.

29:34Mike Schneider:That's like the fifth Hopwater brand that you've talked about on the show in the last two weeks. I love Hopwater.

29:39John Craven:Is it big in San Diego?

29:40Mike Schneider:Is that what's going on?

29:41John Craven:Yeah, it's pretty big here. Yeah. But I think this is the first time I've seen a cocktail version, which is cool. And then I have a bunch of athletic brewing, which I feel like they're just cranking out a million different beers now, which is really cool to see. They have, you know, a nitro, Irish style, dry, emerald cliffs. They have an Irish red. they have their cur royale which i'm not actually quite sure what a cur royale is but it says it's a classic cur royale with bubbly light-bodied brew bursting with bold black currant flavor and a pale hot pale and then they also have a raspberry espresso so i feel like it's just like

30:20Ray Latif:you got loaded over there look at that you're just a new shipment not complaining she's just saluting on the way out. Thanks, Bill and Chris.

30:27John Craven:These are going in my car.

30:29Mike Schneider:Don't take the furniture, too. I think you're more concerned about the audio equipment than the audio equipment. No, I was going to say, but if you want to help yourself to any

30:37Ray Latif:Ninja Turtles or comics from Josh's office, be my guest.

30:41Mike Schneider:Well, I do want to try the Athletic Irish Stout. Is that what it is? It's their version of Guinness, essentially. And yeah, I'm definitely interested in that because that would be, as far as I know, the only competitor to Guinness Zero. I had a Guinness Zero last night. that's a damn good beverage it's so good yeah yeah all right well i think we've said all we can uh say about jackie without her getting mad at us for just overdoing it but i just will say one more time jackie we're gonna miss the heck out of you and the show is not gonna be the same without you you know certainly melissa traverse who's joining the team on a permanent basis is going to be well she has been a host you know for for many years and then you know she's going to be rejoining us but just a different vibe for sure.

31:26Mike Schneider:And we will miss the heck out of you. Love you, Jackie.

31:29John Craven:Love you guys. I'll miss you too.

31:32Mike Schneider:That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNet.com Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Kratchy. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt. And our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smirlinski. and our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. Check us out on Instagram.

32:06Mike Schneider:Our handle is BevNetTasteRadio. As always, for questions, comments, ideas for future podcasts, please send us an email to ask at tasteradio.com. On behalf of the entire Taste Radio team, Thank you for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.

32:49Mike Schneider:overview of Baystate Milling and your role at the company?

32:52Jacqui Brugliera:You bet. Baystate Milling is nearly a 127-year-old family-owned company with active involvement from its fifth-generation owners, and I actually have the pleasure of working with one every day. Over the past decade, we've been on a purposeful journey to help build a better food system through next generation plant-based ingredients like HealthSense high fiber wheat flour. In my role as business development director, I focus on identifying and unlocking opportunities with legacy and emerging brands, as well as manufacturers, helping bring better for you, higher fiber wheat-based products to market, and ultimately helping consumers rediscover wheat in a more meaningful way.

33:43Mike Schneider:Well, it's really important to have a great relationship with your supplier partners, especially if you're an early stage brand. So how do you work with emerging brands when say they're zero to two years in? What does that relationship look like?

33:59Jacqui Brugliera:Well, it's one thing I'm very passionate about. We work with emerging brands across wheat-based food applications, supporting them from early ideation all the way through formulation, product development, and scale-up. But we don't approach these relationships as ingredient sellers. We focus on providing solutions. And that means hands-on formulation guidance, problem solving, and connecting brands to the right manufacturing and supply chain partners to really help them grow. So what's truly unique about Bay State Milling is that we show up. We pick up the phone when emerging brands call, even when they're small or unsure of their next step.

34:44Jacqui Brugliera:Many founders struggle to get attention from large manufacturers early on, and that's where our deep, long-standing network becomes a real advantage. We can open doors, make trusted introductions, and help brands navigate scale.

35:02Mike Schneider:Some brands grow faster than others. And in this day and age, you don't necessarily know when one brand is just going to break out or take off. For those brands that are growing really fast and scaling rapidly, how do you work with those folks when they are facing so much demand and so much potential to grow?

35:21Jacqui Brugliera:Yeah, we understand the urgency that emerging brands are under. many founders are early in their journey, not yet profitable and under pressure to prove their concept quickly. So our goal is to help them move fast without cutting corners. And through our technical expertise and trusted partner network, we help brands refine products efficiently, and we help connect them with manufacturers that can support them at their current size and scale with them over time. We maintain a network of manufacturing partners who can work with brands when they're really small, as well as partners who can step in as volume grows.

36:07Jacqui Brugliera:Along the way, we really support trials, we provide ingredients, and we invest our time and knowledge to help brands build products that are both scalable and sustainable.

36:19Mike Schneider:I know you've given a lot of advice on ways that brands can enhance their relationship with Baystate Milling. But if there's one particular thing that you can isolate that would be really helpful for listeners to know about partnering with Baystate Milling, what would it be?

36:38Jacqui Brugliera:Well, I actually have two. So my first piece of advice is simple. Just reach out. We want to talk to you. We are just as passionate about bringing better-for-you products to market as founders are, and whether that's to challenge an existing market that's ripe for innovation, to help build a new one, or just to help consumers eat better. At Bay State Milling, we genuinely want to see our partners succeed. That's very important to us. And just as important, let us help you. Strong partnerships are built over time and brands might start with one or two founders and grow to 100 employees. But we want to be there that entire journey, every step of the way.

37:27To us, partnerships aren't temporary or transactional.

37:32Jacqui Brugliera:They are ongoing relationships. And we are committed to showing up, whether you are just getting started or you are scaling at full strength.

37:42Mike Schneider:Jessica, does Baystate Milling take a stepped or phased approach to growth as brands grow?

37:48Jacqui Brugliera:We take a phased approach to growth. We understand that brands may start with limited inventory just to get on shelf, and we make sure that both our solutions and our partners can accommodate that. We've been fortunate enough to work with brands that once struggled to get a call returned. and today they are category leaders in the grocery channel. That kind of journey is exactly what we are built to support.

38:17Mike Schneider:As you mentioned, reaching out is the first step. It's probably the most important step in developing that relationship. What's the best way to get in contact with you, Jessica? What's the best way to connect with Baystate Milling as an early stage brand?

38:28Jacqui Brugliera:I would recommend reaching out directly to me at jwellnitz, W-E-L-L-N-I-T-Z at bsm.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, so feel free to reach out to me there. And you can also learn more about what we do at Bay State Milling at baystatemilling.com slash healthsense.

38:54Mike Schneider:I love when there are multiple options to connect with a person or team. It just makes it that much easier for listeners to access the vital information and the products that you are offering to better our food and beverage system. And it's so wonderful speaking with you, Jessica. I'm really excited for folks to connect with you and I'm excited to stay in touch. So let's do both.

39:19Jacqui Brugliera:Thank you for having me, Ray.