It's Not Just You. Everything Looks The Same. Is That A Bad Thing?

0:10Hello and thanks for tuning into Taste Radio, the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. I'm Ray Lateef, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and with my co-host for this episode, John Craven, Jackie Brugliera, and Mike Schneider. I love how Nate always does this. Every time I start screaming into the microphone. He runs away. Doing the intro, he comes and closes the door to the studio. He's like, I can't stand the sound of that guy's voice. Gotta get under a table. Yes. Every week, I start screaming, and he comes and closes the door. He scurries into the catacombs.

0:41Yes. No, he's doing a great job. We love Nate. He's running the AV, making sure that everything's working. We all look as good as we can possibly look and sound as good as we can possibly sound. That's about it right there. That was a microcosm. No, we're not. Yeah, that's, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, welcome back, John. Welcome back, Mike. Thanks, Ray. I almost forgot your name. Yeah, I know. It's like your dream. Hey, here it is. It looks like you got that t-shirt in Puerto Rico. Is that right? Yeah, I got this. 413 is the road to Rincon. that goes through Rincon. Rincon is a town? Rincon is a surf town in Puerto Rico.

1:17You went surfing? That is where I went. Nice. I surfed, drank as much Caribe kombucha as I could. Stuff's really good. I thought you were going to say you drank as many cocktails, and then I paused and realized that you weren't probably drinking that many cocktails. No, I was basically, I was too busy surfing with the turtles. What? Sea turtles. There's turtles? Like big turtles? Yeah, there's hawkbill turtles in Puerto Rico, and they just, they pop their heads up when you're surfing. Okay. Chill. Yeah, they're awesome. So all the cocktails you didn't drink, John, I assume you had a few for Mike.

1:46He did. On his behalf. I saw. I had a few. Yeah. You were in Mexico? I was in Mexico in Cabo. But there's the war on sugar in Mexico, so. There is, yeah. Basically, every margarita is like a skinny margarita now. Is this true? It seemed to largely be true. There's giant warnings on, like, soda and stuff down there. Really? I like that. Nice. I basically existed on ceviche. Okay. So it was a good time. Did you find the garbage can of ceviche you've been dreaming about? No, I saw a ceviche bar, though. That was kind of... Ceviche master? Yeah. I'm curious about this. So, like, you would see a warning label on a can of soda like you would on a pack of cigarettes here?

2:23They have these, like, high-calorie... I think it's a high-sugar warning, too. It's, like, these black... Oh, I see it. Excesso calorías. Yes, yes. Azucares. I am fluent. I'm fluent in Spanish, as you can tell. Yes. it's interesting how like even i mean beyond packaged you know beverages there's still even with a mixed cocktail which you're not really privy to what's going in there they're still trying to dial down the sugar it's important i mean i think i wouldn't be surprised if we start to see some momentum for something like that here in the states but well i don't know if big food would allow that to happen someday there was a time when people thought big tobacco wouldn't allow those kinds of things and now you see like you know a terrible person's like a lung like those like literally black lungs on on cigarette packs in europe for sure you see those but it's time for a ray rant come on yeah yeah right are you okay this is your chance i think i made a mistake this morning because i wanted a little bit of zen so i saw this bottle of ohm gently zen on my desk and ohm is a maker of mushroom superfood supplements and this one is made with ashwagandha and gaba powered by reishi though.

3:32Because normally you'd be like, big food, sugar children, they shouldn't be eating any of this. That's exactly what I sound like too. And then he bust out a package chocolate cake. Never going to let that down. And then I had my caplets, my caplets of om zen with a swig. Yeah, what'd you put in there, booze? No, a swig of coffee. Coffee? No, so I'm not sure what I did to myself. Who takes pills with coffee? I don't know. This was a huge mistake. A huge mistake. I think your brain's currently calibrating. You know, you got the caffeine and the Zen and it's trying to figure out what to do right now.

4:04Conflicting drugs in his system. I also got my leader of green juice. You love that stuff. It's not, you know, like leader of cola. Like that's what it is. And what's the name of that movie? Leader of cola? Yeah. Leader of cola. Oh my goodness. How are we? Super Troopers. Oh, Super Troopers. I don't remember that one. Leader of cola? I don't remember that one verbatim right now. Yeah, sorry, Ray. That's not a verbatim. That's a very famous quote from that movie. Oh my gosh. It's not a good movie. Anyway. Okay. You know what? But people are going to send you an email. That's fine. And lots of people.

4:32That's fine. All right. Let's talk about the wine in Mexico. You told me that you almost spent$300 on a bottle of$10 wine. Is this true? That's not what I said. He said, I think he said he could. That's what they call a leading statement in question. I said I witnessed some tourists spending$300 for wine labels like La Crema. Now, to be fair, those are fine bottles of wine. They're just not$300. I mean, if they're like$10 and you're at a gas station. $10 bottles. Come on. A gas station. I mean, that's the kind of stuff you find in like a wine shop in Vermont to put on your table. You know, it's like$15,$12.

5:07Why Vermont? That's where I find it. That's weird. But yeah, Mexico has some pretty, pretty solid wine. I got a bunch from this winery that last summer when I took a trip with Jackie down to Mexico, we went to one called Casa Magoni, which is like pretty solid stuff and relatively widely available in Cabo too. So enjoyed that. It was only, I think, 50 bucks. Yeah, I recall you guys talking about the wine scene in Mexico and how it is up and coming, which is really cool to see. You wouldn't think in that kind of climate, I'm making big assumptions here, but I'm assuming where you were was pretty warm, that you could grow good grapes, good wine grapes out there.

5:43Yeah, there's some different climates down there. I mean, Mexico City is like a mile high city. So there's definitely elevation in Mexico. And in wine country, like in Valle de Guadalupe, like there's a lot of valleys and things. So similar to, you know, Sonoma where there's some cooler climates, even though it's like a hot area. So they grow a variety of grapes. And even in San Diego, a lot of restaurants are serving a lot of wines from Valle now. It's trendy and it's new and a lot of like new winemakers coming onto the scene. Well, guess what? I'm going to be in your neck of the woods later this week, Jackie, and I'm going to have to find myself some Mexican wine.

6:20Yeah, if only you're here longer, I could take you to Mexico. man I was thinking about doing that because I'm going to be in LA next week and I'm going to be in San Diego later this week and so I said okay well why don't a normal person would say I'm just going to stay for the weekend you know Ray's such a jet setter I'm going to be in LA I'm in San Diego I was just about to know now I'm a jet setter I mean you know this is all this is all work related if I were if I were a real jet setter I would be in LA you are the Taylor Swift of food and beverage We need a BevNet private jet for Ray. BevJet.

6:50BevJet. BevJet. We do have the idea for the beverage copter, which I think is, that's ahead in the queue, isn't it? Beverage copter gets you nowhere, though. Yeah, it's true. But it's really cool. Yeah, you can go cross country in the beverage copter. No, that would be a rough trip. I demand a BevJet. Let's start with an iPad. Can I get an iPad? You've got an iPad. I've got one waiting for you. Yes, we've got you an iPad. All right. Well, Mike mentioned Vermont. And of course, Vermont is famous for many things. Skiing, cheese. Whiskey, maple syrup. Maple syrup. It's also famous for a very well-known spirit brand.

7:24That spirit brand is Whistlepig. No, no, no. Whistlepig. Are you whistling a little when you talk about it? Correct. Whistlepig. John has at his side a bottle of a very limited edition whiskey that was recently launched. I don't even know if it's been announced, but it was recently launched by Whistlepig, which is called, drumroll please. Say it, Ray. Oh, God. It is called Badonkadonk. Whistlepig Badonkadonk. Now, for those of you who don't know what a Badonkadonk is, I'm going to get fired if I say it. So, Jackie, you probably should say it. Okay, go ahead. Say it. So, Urban Dictionary's definition is buttocks of exceptional quality and bounce.

8:10Doesn't David Chappelle say it's junk in the trunk? Yes. I believe he goes by Dave, but yes. Mr. David Chappelle. I don't know him, so I don't think I'm allowed to call him Dave, okay? Fair enough, fair enough. Yes, exceptional bounce. So I wonder if this just bounces on the tongue, you know? Oh, jeez. It's a great... Nobody ever thought Badonkadonk would be written in such a font either. It's amazing. Look at this font. I mean, this box is like... It's heavy. Does it have any Badonkadonk to it? We should kind of describe this for people who are not watching the video. This bottle comes in a very heavy wooden crate, which opens up in the front.

8:48And it says Whistlepig, age 25, on the little door handle, which opens up this crate. John is pouring some out right now. What's the retail price of a bottle this way? Well, hold on now. Okay, all right, I want to know. Let's lay it out here. All right. So this is a small batch pot still single malt whiskey. This pours about$100. That'll put it in perspective. Finished in Silver Oak Cabernet Barrel. Silver Oak is the name of a esteemed winery. All right. Yes. All right. Let's drink this. So the retail price on this bottle is$1 ,999. Wow. I just love that. It's like such a fancy, expensive product with such a fun name.

9:33They're just like kind of making fun of the fact that it's super expensive. Yeah. I mean, it's very nice. I probably should not have had some of my own mushroom caplets and some coffee beforehand. Your box is$200. I know. Send the box back. You're not keeping that. This is awesome. I'm not keeping that. Oh, Jesus. Don't nuke my bottle here. Don't break the box. It doesn't even slide. I mean, it doesn't even slide. You basically need to be a bodybuilder to lift that box. You need a forklift. But this stuff is exceptional. I actually sat down with two of the key leaders of Whistlepig in an episode of Taste Radio published in July of last year.

10:08Those folks are Liz Rhodes in Megarin, Ireland, who are the head of whiskey development and chief blender, respectively, for Whistlepig. It's a really interesting conversation talking about how they are leading the brand forward amid just different trends and changes in the world of spirits. So also really cool to see two women leading this brand or part of the leadership team of Whistlepig as well. So yeah, exciting stuff for the brand. Mike, I know that you've, you know, going on vacation. You got to get back into the swing of things. Yeah, got to get back. Got to get your immune system back into gear.

10:46If only there was something that could get my immune system back into gear, right? Do you have a suggestion? I do have a suggestion. What is it? It's Amuse. Amuse, of course. I-M-M-U-S-E. Amuse is a dietary and food ingredient clinically shown to stimulate immune function at the cellular level. Amuse is the primary sponsor of today's episode of Taste Radio, and if you incorporate Amuse into your innovation strategy, you will help your consumers optimize their health throughout the year. Learn more at amusehealth.com. That's I-M-M-U-S-E health dot com. Pretty impressive you got through that after all that whistle-pig it just did.

11:21I did not have more than, it just like basically coated my palate. Well, this is going to boost my immunity right here. Okay, it's going to kill all the germs in your mouth, yes. What do you have? You have a magazine? I've got more. It's more like a coffee table book. It's by our dear friend, Mike Lee. Can I pause for a second? I said, do people still read magazines? You know, it's kind of funny, though. That we have a magazine. No, we have a magazine, but people love the magazine. They do. People like our subscriber. Our subscription rate keeps going up and up and up. And people are like, I want to be in the magazine, the magazine, the magazine, the magazine.

11:53It's like if you see your name in print, you see your brand's name in print. Somehow it's just like you've made it. Do you know you can get the magazine for free? You can just go to BevNet.com. all this time I've been paying for it, 13 years I've been paying for the magazine. This is crazy. We've been docking his pay since he started here. We'll send it to you. Just go to the website, sign up for the magazine. BevNet.com slash magazine. Magazine. Made it really simple. Super easy. Also in the magazine, I'm going to keep going for one more second. Yeah, go for it. I'm sure we're going to be letting people know that registration for BevNet Live is ending.

12:27Early registration. Early registration. Early, not registration. Early registration. It's going to sell out anyway, but I mean, early, excuse me, early registration. Can you let a professional handle this, please? Jackie? It's the whistle pig striking you out. It's the damn whistle pig. This is early, early registration weekend is ending, and Jackie has literally begun every meeting that I've been in with her, which has been a lot with, hey, everybody, early registration. It's like a holiday for us, you know? When is early registration ending, Jackie? It's ending this Friday, which at the time of this recording, well, by the time people listen to this, it will be today.

13:02So it's ending today, but I'm known to be a little bit lazy. Oh my God, you guys. I forget to close it down. So if you're listening to this, you need a little extra time. You got the weekend. You guys, there's like two times of year that Jackie gets like ridiculously lazy. We're like, damn it. Midnight on Friday, this thing closes down. Jackie, you got this? Yep, I got it, Mike. I got it. I fall asleep or something, you know, and I forget to turn it off. She's like sitting on the couch, watching basketball, watching like basketball replays, eating trashy chips, you know, I mean, which is the new Pulp Pantry, by the way.

13:44The new name of Pulp Pantry. she's rebranded it Caitlin Mogentail or Mogentali or maybe that Mogentail is silent it's just Caitlin for the chips but she's rebranding to Trashy and Jackie's just sitting on the couch garbage mouthing these chips and she's forgetting to do her job yeah it's okay let's come full circle here for everyone's benefit April 26th yes April 26th early registration for BevNet Live summer 2024 is ending and it's your last chance to save how much money, Jackie? At least$100 per ticket. So$100, even more if you're an insider. Yes. That is possibly a train ticket, a seat upgrade, a dinner.

14:27So if you're going to come, why not sign up now? And if you're not going to come, I'm not sure why you wouldn't be coming because this is going to be the event of the summer. And I can pretty much guarantee that at this point. And book your travel now. I just booked my flights. I booked my Broadway tickets. You know, you can start saving in multiple ways. What are you going to see this time? Hades Town. Nice. Hades Town? It's about hell? It is about hell and the soundtrack's amazing. A musical about hell. Yeah. I love it. I love this. This is my dream. Why am I not going? You know why this segue is so perfect?

15:01Because Mike opened up his Mies magazine. I opened up Mies magazine. And no, you were at the perfect page. Gordon Ramsay. Gordon Ramsay was... No, not only is it Gordon Ramsay, it's AI Gordon Ramsay. So this is a... It's kind of... Ray said it was like a magazine. It's more like a coffee table book. Maybe it's somewhere in between, but it's by the, you can only describe him as one of the industry's top creatives. And this is Mike Lee. He describes himself as a writer and designer, but I think of him as much more his aesthetic. Like if you follow this guy on Instagram, he finds like the coolest stuff.

15:34So follow him on Instagram, check out his story. And also check out this, this, uh, future of food magazine called me's. It's got stuff on AI, soil as a service, entrepreneurship, and more. It's a beautiful book. And Mike, thanks for sending this along. Full disclosure, he sent it to me so I could take a look at it. I haven't really gotten too much of a chance to dig in yet, but what I have dug into, it's been fascinating. The Future of Food. The Future of Food. So it's not a trend report, so to speak. It's just more of like musings on things that could happen. Mies is spelled M-I-S-E, by the way, on the future of food Mies.

16:10Anyway, check it out. There you go. Now, the future of food, I want to say for the last two or three years, has included package design that looks like it has embraced a 70s or 80s aesthetic. Not it looks like it has. It has embraced a 70s or 80s aesthetic. Seems like everything we see these days has that retro feel. And, you know, you think about a brand like Graza. Graza is like the ultimate example of this. There it is, yeah. Now, I pulled these from the sample room. These are their olive oil chips. We've talked about these. We don't need to talk about these anymore. But the logo of Graza just feels like it's that groovy 60s kind of vibe.

16:45There are trend aesthetics that people follow. And, you know, this is just what's hot right now. Yeah. You can be even more in your face with this kind of stuff. There's this alcohol-free wine that I pulled from the sample room called Tethos. T-E-T-H-O-S. Tethos. This is a black tea Shiraz. Great liquid, by the way. Is it? I'd like to try that. and literally this variety has a polaroid an image of a polaroid camera on the front and a cassette don't forget this one yeah the Sauvignon Blanc variety has a cassette tape on the front so they're really laying it on pretty thick alcohol free hangover free black tea Shiraz get in my belly go ahead there you go yeah I want to try this I mean people are listening to you know cd players again they're listening to vinyl like that's all recycling themselves like Mike was saying fashions recycling.

17:37Like what am I wearing right now? It's like ripped jeans and like an acid wash shirt. You're in the eighties right now. You know, I have bell bottoms to, you know, when I feel like being in the seventies. So no longer shaming Ray for his use of a VCR. So that's where we're at. Yeah. Ray also has laser discs, you guys, because he found three laser disc players on the side of the street and also the laser disc. I would love to have a laser. you know those things are pretty rare laser disc players yeah there's even a more rare rare type of laser disc player where it's it's like it's a record it's actually i think it's made out of vinyl but it plays video somehow it's this weird weird dance anyway if anyone has one of those machines and wants to get rid of it's in their basement please let me know i'll i'll pay for shipping and handling i also saw in the sample room this really interesting actually this was in the what they call it fridge upstairs that the danger fridge yes even though this is not a danger fridge type of beverage it's called wineio which is a non-alcoholic sparkling rosé but even this i mean i think that the brand aesthetic looks very throwback and retro john what do you know about this one nothing nothing nothing okay it's a i think it's wine uh wine uh yeah wine uh like that's an oh with the slash through it or it's like the oh with the umlaut yeah but it's very very minimalist on the front it's a very uh red like cherry red can yeah very cool that also looks How about not beer?

19:02So not beer is an interesting one for me. I feel like that does have some of that retro aesthetic, but it, I mean, it looks like a can of Budweiser and it's intended to look like that. Yeah, I mean, it looks like American lager, but it's American sparkling water. That's exactly what it's described as. So not beer, I'm sure a lot of our listeners have already seen this on the Twitters, on the Instagrams and stuff. I mean, it's very much of that cheeky liquid death kind of mold where they're making fun of you know sparkling water and uh just poking fun at the fact that this is nothing more than what it is just water just water yeah it's chill yeah and on the side of the can it says never a bad time i'm assuming because you're not going to get a hangover from drinking this product and i just like to put my thumb like this covering the knot so i look like a real no because then it says beer american water yeah but i wonder if they gonna get in trouble for that because like budweiser it looks budweiser ish but it doesn't look enough like what's there's a trouble what exactly like it doesn't look exactly like it does not what are you i mean you clearly have colors from no it has the same oval uh white front it's got the same chicken on the front look tonight instead of having a nice glass of bordeaux or whatever you do just crush a couple of bud heavies and you'll see they do not look the same How about this 90s fruit snack aesthetic here?

20:27Nature's Garden, probiotic strawberry. These are called Yogi's. They're excellent. I like them. Yogi's. Oh, it's a yogurt covered fruit snack. 80 calories a pack. And probiotics. Just what we need. Probiotics. Yeah. But yeah. Probiotics. Give it a try. 2 billion probiotics. 2 billion CFUs. 2 billion probiotic culture. Oh, it's pretty tasty. Yeah, these are tasty. They also have a trail mix too. here you go i don't know i when i'm seeing this stuff though i mean like the package design and you know getting back to that for a second i'm trying to figure out you know how much longer this is going to last and i'm not saying this is a bad thing i'm just wondering you know for all the stuff that we're seeing you know that is intended to be a little differentiated is intended to appeal to younger consumers and you know their embrace of retro aesthetic you know what's what's really what's really standing out anymore i don't think almost anything is because everything kind of looks the same i mean this is always the case though it is there's always trends where you know i think the majority of brands tend to gravitate towards and i think now the colors that we're seeing you know the design aesthetics or i don't know there was a stretch where everything was like green you know and now it's like we've got a lot of like you know yellow orange gold red sort of stuff going on um and i think there was also a stretch where things were trying to look like i don't know kind of tech and like you know lots of straight edges and now we've gone away from that so but i think it's usually like it's like a slow boil and then it's very noticeable and obviously that presents an opportunity for brands that don't look that way to stand out right i mean that's kind of how it always works yeah i think also it's just who they're targeting i think the brands that are really going for younger consumers are going with the retro vibe because that's what gen z is all about right now and what they're doing what they're wearing and what they're consuming whereas like brands that are maybe targeting some older like an older demographic might not be tapping into that.

22:41But and then again, it's like, we'll see this and then slowly it will shift and we won't really notice the change like right away. But it just kind of like flows into the next trend. Then you've got like the go against the grain art project that just pops in like case or something like that. You know, it looks like they've got the Mr. Do Apple, which I've talked about before. And then, you know, they've got their little yin yang, awesome logo. And it's just like, what's going on here? It looks a lot different than the rest of the aesthetic you see out there. Also pretty tasty with their bedazzling.

23:14It's a jasmine tea beverage. I mean, I think it's a beautiful brand. I think it's a great tasting brand. But I feel like it does very much fit into this mold of, I'm just going to call it what it is because it's been on that tip of my tongue, these snack shot type products. And, you know, Andrea Hernandez has been following modern package design or contemporary package design for the past four years now. And it seems like when you go onto her site or follow her on Twitter or Instagram, you see a lot of these types of label designs, which almost always use like one of four different fonts. And yeah, I mean, they really do.

23:51And have this sort of counterculture copy. Well, there's also just the hierarchy is usually different on these. There's a, you know, it's probably something that somebody with an art degree and less experience in food and beverage put together. Somebody who's a designer, somebody who, you know, knows a little bit about making something that's eye-catching puts these together. And you're also looking a lot of times on Snackshot at Rev Zero packaging. So it's like the thing before they actually have a full release. And so you get a chance to see, you know, the renders in some cases before somebody's actually put a package before they put something into an actual package or you're seeing like really rev zeroed out one that they're trying to get some feedback on too.

24:45So I like that about, I like that about the quote snack shot aesthetic. Yeah. Beyond just like the retro, like aesthetic too, I think brands are like one of the brands you were showcasing are going for more minimalist packaging because there's so much marketing. There's so many like messages out there and people and consumers just want to know exactly what it is and what's the function or why should I drink this? And I have like heel tea right here too. And very minimalist packaging just says exactly what it is, but has like RX bar on a can. Huh? It looks like RX bar. Yeah. It literally just, you know, says exactly what's in there on the front says caffeine free organic says that it's peppermint and dandelion which are you know people know those as functional ingredients in tea so i think what's roe water everything's roe water yeah not sure about that one reverse osmosis okay i i would think it would be capital l but okay yeah it's a it's the new rohan ozo

25:51does he cry for your information it's the main ingredient most beverages gotcha rohan oza doesn't cry though he's such a happy dude that is a really random tangent there but hey just quickly going back to the what you said about good enough mike you know but good enough for the first mover yes but is it good enough for a mainstream audience and i think probably not yet well a lot of these products we see at your Erewhons of the world. And then, you know, there's a drop-off, pretty significant drop-off in terms of where we see these products. Yes, they might be available direct to consumer, they might be available on Amazon, but how do you create a package for the long-term that has lasting value beyond those initial independent or...

26:35You have to listen. I mean, that's what social media is all about. You have the chance to, you know, get feedback by putting renders of your packaging out there. You can try a lot of things with, with just, you know, putting the designs out there to try to sell your, sell your can. So do you have to necessarily deliver the exact package that you quote sold? I don't think so. I think all I would like to add to this is also that, you know, package design for every brand is, it's an evolution and part of the journey. You know, I think a lot of times entrepreneurs are like you know thinking about like their package being this lasting thing but you know in reality the needs of a brand trying to get its foot in the door versus the needs of a brand that's trying to scale or trying to exit are very different things and I think if you look at you know a lot of the brands that do eventually exit relative to where they started out it's quite different in some cases like almost unrecognizable like I saw on Twitter yesterday someone posted a picture of a Celsius can from 10 years ago and was talking about you know if you put 10 grand into this company you'd have I don't know what it was like three million dollars today but like the whole entire you know design of Celsius which 10 years ago was like pretty damn awful like cannabis it's just burn calories it's just this ugly crazy thing compared to like their beautiful white like polished you know branding of today that looks like a mature brand um and I think you know for a lot of brands also like yes there's really bad packaging that needs to be fixed but i think some of the things you're talking about even with you know case mike you know i mean these are small things that are not going to make or break that brand like what's going to make or break them or certainly like the overall idea and the execution more than like you know the little things on the package which doesn't mean you shouldn't be pedantic about those but i think Some companies sometimes over-index on aesthetics is really the reason I'm saying that.

28:34Right. And what you need to choose in the beginning is, are you trying to sell your brand or are you trying to sell a flavor that someone recognizes? I think those are just two things that you have to ask yourself when you're putting together your label hierarchy. And then, I mean, the other piece, and Jackie and I talk about this all the time, you don't really decide your brand long term. You get to decide it in the beginning, but then who picks up on that? I mean, the consumer. Exactly. The consumer picks up on it. And they decide what they're doing with your brand. And if you listen to them, you adapt to their lifestyle.

29:07And Graza is a great example of like a brand that is kind of retro aesthetic, but has gone more mainstream, is in a lot of retail stores because they do a great job on their social media. People know what the product is. It's very clear, you know, and people like the product. It's a quality product. People have to find these products at retailers, though. And retailers, I'm going to give a lot of praise to Sprouts, which has worked with a lot of early stage emerging brands and brought their products into their stores. I see and hear from founders who are either making small inroads into Sprouts or going store wide, chain wide in Sprouts and really innovative, interesting brands.

29:50I think that route used to be very much Erwan and Foxtrot, right? And Foxtrot, we just learned this morning, is ceasing operations. Now, obviously, this is a developing story. We just learned about this news. We just mentioned Andrea Hernandez from Snackshot. She broke this news on her site. Really don't know too, too much about it, but disappointing. I guess not totally unexpected because Foxtrot and Dom's Market, which is a specialty grocery chain based in Chicago, had merged a few months back. And it almost seems like this could have happened. It's just shocking that it did actually happen.