Maybe Momofuku Doesn't Deserve This Heat. Then Again…

0:10Hello friends and thanks for tuning in to taste radio the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. I'm Ray Lateef, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and with my co-host for this episode, John Craven, Jackie Brugliera, and Mike Schneider, who is sweating buckets over here to my left because there's a big game, big soccer game on this afternoon involving his favorite team, that of the Arsenal Gunners and the German Giants of Bayern Munich. Look at you, just hydrating as much as you can right now. Look at me sweating buckets right now. What is that? What are you drinking?

0:47I'm having a local weather. I really like this stuff. Local weather. Yeah, local weather in the aluminum bottle can thing here. And look at that. There's a soccer ball in the front. There's a soccer ball in the front. The only problem is it's blue. I just need a red can. I'm going to use the word. This is the wild berry flavor. I'm going to choose this word carefully. Clowns go direct to a random football match. Random. when there was like it is definitely not random like an NCAA women's championship a men's championship a goddamn solar eclipse we've been talking about a random we're talking about one of the biggest by the time this airs no one's gonna they're gonna be like what was that we should take a survey it's like I'm very curious about the percentages of like what people care about you know like what percentage is like really focused on the eclipse right now versus women's basketball I mean and then the question for football will be just hard stop no more soccer of football, whatever.

1:43Let's eclipse gone right now. Anyway. Okay. I did sit in like four and a half hours of traffic getting home from... To see a dot. Just to go stare at the sky for... So we know what you were focused on. 90 seconds. Yeah. I mean, I was at a brewery drinking beer too, but we won't talk about that. I mean, we talked about the NCAA Women's Tournament for a couple of weeks and it's a little disappointing. Jackie and I are sad. I know. I want to keep Clark to win. We want to keep Clark to win. South Carolina, undefeated season. Yeah, that was pretty sweet. They crushed it. And Don State was the most amazing coach.

2:16So I'm happy. Either I was happy. She couldn't even speak. I know. She could say nothing. She was so just overtaken by emotions. Yeah, their redemption year after losing last year. So very, very impressive sporting events, as in the Women's National Championship or Women's Basketball National Team Final. But who's starting for Arsenal? That's a good question. The NCAA Women's Basketball National Championship won by South Carolina. The men on the men's side, Connecticut went back to back with a really impressive tournament run. Yes, the eclipse was yesterday. We're recording here on Tuesday, the 9th of April.

2:56The equally impressive eclipse, I guess. But I do want to note. Mike's retinas are still burning. We've covered all tournaments now. He put magnifying glasses on. Very quickly. That's what I thought you were supposed to do. John told me that. Yeah, I did. Very quickly, I do want to note that this afternoon's game between Arsenal and Bayern Munich is part one of two matches. It's their two legs. So we have to hear about this again. Yes. So this first match is at Arsenal's home stadium. It's a very important match for them to win. And if they don't have a great result, Bayern is going to have a significant advantage.

3:29Got it. So why is it two matches? Like, is it a series? Because it's a knockout. Yeah. It's a knockout round in the Champions League. So you play two matches and it's an aggregate. So they aggregate the number of goals. That's pretty cool. Let's say they each win a game and they have the same number of goals in the aggregate. Then they will go to extra time. If it's still tied, they'll go to penalty kicks. This only happens leading up to the final game. The final game is only one game. Okay. So they could suck today and still, you know, figure it out. It's possible. But the home field advantage really does mean a lot.

4:02It doesn't mean as much as it used to because of away goals. We won't get into that. But anyway. Yeah, we've got to talk about CBG stuff or we're going to have to change that intro to the podcast for no one with anything useful to do in the CBG industry. For people who are twiddling their thumbs with nothing better to do. I didn't even get to say we are top of the league. We are top of the league. Come on. But anyone who is a Taste Radio VIP will know that we do love soccer. We love to talk about the sport from time to time. And if you are a Taste Radio VIP, you will get benefits that few other listeners get.

4:35Well, actually, there's a lot of people who listen. We have a good percentage of our folks who listen on a regular basis that are part of the VIP group. But for those of you who are not yet part of VIP, it's very easy to sign up. Go to tasteradio.com slash VIP. You'll find benefits, including discounts to trade shows, other events that happen throughout the year, including one that's coming up in San Diego. We'll have fun and exciting ways to incorporate your brand into the show and highlight your products at conventions and trade shows like we just did at Expo West. A lot of the folks that we did highlight on Instagram and LinkedIn, Taste Radio VIPs.

5:13Once again, sign up, tasteradio.com slash VIP. And as we like to say, Ray, just for listening, you're already a VIP. We just want to make it official. We want to be able to give you some special, you know, special attention for being a VIP. Absolutely. Now, I heard from a lot of Taste Radio VIPs about a recent controversy that's been all over the news. That's involving Mamafuku. Mamafuku, the well-known chain of restaurants and consumer brand founded by David Chang and helmed by Marguerite Zeber Mariscal, who we featured last week in an episode of Taste Radio. Now, this controversy hits home for a lot of folks because essentially Momofuku trademarked the term Chili Crunch.

6:08And in doing so, they alienated a lot of smaller brands that use Chili Crunch to describe their products. Momofuku is being called a bully by some folks. And whether it's fair or not to be called that the representation of the brand right now and how people are viewing their business practices doesn't really seem to be in the best place. Marguerite Mariscal, the CEO of Momofuku on this very podcast, said days before the cease and desist was issued that the rising tide lifts all boats. I mean, right there, that's, that's confusing, Ray. That's confusing. It is confusing, but I will say, look, I mean, Momofuku trademarked Chili Crunch.

6:58You know, they mean they, they trademarked that term. If other people are going to use it, they have to defend it, right? Otherwise you're going to lose that trademark. They spent, no, no. Well, you don't think so? Well, I mean, look, we have trademarks on common things here like nosh which is impossible to just trademark the word nosh right so i guess my own kind of insight on this is like yes you have to defend your trademarks but you can also kind of work with other companies so in the case of nosh like we have agreements with other companies that are using the word nosh in totally different fields because it is a trademark that on its own is sort of loose.

7:37And at some point you risk, you know, someone fighting your actual trademark. Now, I would say in the case of this, like my, you know, from my experience and just seeing this, I mean, there's probably whoever handles their trademarks that decided to file for it when it was a thing that was pretty, you know, unique and new. And, you know, I think if this were a tiny little startup company that had managed to trademark Chili Crunch, like we might see it differently, but David Chang and Mama Fuku are who they are. They are sort of culinary icons that I think the optics of this, regardless of whatever, you know, the actual trademark lies, it's kind of time for them to just, I don't know, take a loss on this and accept that this is probably something that they should let go and, you know, either have agreements with these companies or just let the trademark lapse.

8:30Because I don't think that this is doing them any good to be perceived as this kind of anti-small business, anti-entrepreneur company, when in reality, like Mamafuku's CPG company, like, is a small entrepreneurial, like, upstart in itself. Like, they're just going to hurt themselves here. So... Yeah, I don't see the point of defending a trademark and becoming a litigation company when they have all kinds of great food to make, and so do these competitors. It's also chili crunch. It feels pretty generic, just like, I don't know, aspirin, yo-yo, cellophane, other products that were previously trademarked, but then became common use because they're generic.

9:09Yeah. The last thing I'll say on this is I think, you know, there are scenarios where you would just let whoever's handling your trademarks like file for things that they feel are relevant or that you should be protected on. But stuff like sending out, you know, cease and desist and pursuing, you know, the defense of the trademark, there's no way you just have your, you know, law firm like on autopilot doing that. Like that costs you money. Like those are decisions that it would be impossible to believe that those weren't made at like the executive level. So, I mean, again, they're sort of, I think getting the backlash they deserve for this.

9:46And at some point, like they should probably either just, you know, apologize and move on or I don't know. If it was a mistake, we would have heard something by now, but we haven't. And to Mike's point, like where it's kind of generic, I mean, obviously the cultural element of it, like they're trying to trademark something that is almost like a food group for certain cultures. So there's like this feels like this like cultural insensitivity, like trying to create barriers for like founders to create foods that they grew up with, you know, and to use the name chili crunch, whereas they're trying to trademark that and then, you know, enforce it.

10:27And my other question is like, I guess you want to protect yourself as a brand and you want to submit all these trademarks. But what was even the idea behind trademarking Chili Crunch? I mean, I think part of it was to differentiate themselves from Chili Crisp, which is a pretty commonly used term as it relates to oil and pepper sauce or oil and pepper, marinate, seasoning, whatever you want to call it. And to be clear, I mean, I think, you know, I believe that the brands affected, including Homia, including a brand that I hate Mila, including, you know, this little goat, a lot of these brands that are women and minority owned, I feel for them.

11:07And I feel like they should come into an agreement with Momofuku. I will say, however, that, you know, to your point earlier, John, yes, they could choose not to defend the trademark. And yes, they could work with other companies, you know, to allow them to use that term. But had those other companies come to Momofuku knowing that the trademark was out there ahead of time, maybe this wouldn't have been an issue. Well, I mean, some of that just in terms of the timing of all this stuff, sometimes it's not super easy to fully understand every possible trademark risk that's out there. I think, you know, typically you'd be focused more on like the brand name as opposed to like a product that's just a combination of two words and i think you know having thought about this and looking at the mama fuku product i have to guess that they're part of you know just as a kind of innocuous explanation for like why they trademarked this is that it kind of felt like they maybe were considering making the actual brand chili crunch and downplaying Mama Fuku, which is still pretty small on there, which is probably not the best, you know, path for them to take.

12:22But, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I have the jar in my hand of Mama Fuku. I mean, it's interesting for a company that's really like, you know, hell-bent on this trademark. There's no like TM or anything on here, which you would typically do when you're trying to tell people that you're at least in the process of trademarking something. I don't know if it's fully, if that trademark is pending or actually registered, but, you know, they have nothing on here. Yeah, I think a lot of these younger brands are just kind of surprised. It just seemed like it came out of nowhere and they weren't expecting this to be trademarked because, again, it seems kind of generic.

12:56So I think there's just like a level of surprise and kind of just all these brands asking why. It's not just Caleb and Jen from Mila and Michelle from Homia who are upset. you've got Jing Gao from Fly by Jing and Vanessa Pham and Kim Pham and Kevin Lee and other Asian founders jumping in here to say, you know, why are we fighting each other? Yeah, Jing Gao, who is an investor in Homia, posted something on LinkedIn four days ago when she said that the chili crunch trademark should never have been granted like chili crisp, but is a generic and descriptive term for a culturally specific condiment, one that has existed in Chinese culinary culture for hundreds of years.

13:35I'm disheartened to hear that Momofuku is using a trademark with a validity that is tenuous at best to go after numerous brands, including small minority and women founded businesses. Get all that. I do want to bring up, so I had a few different jars of chili crunch that I hoarded at home. And, you know, there's another brand out there. I mentioned this brand, this little goat, which was founded by Stephanie Izard, who is the well-known chef appeared on and won the uh competition top chef uses chili crunch as the descriptor for her products interestingly though now hold on now john has in his hand a jar of hines culinary chili crisp crunch whatever you want to call it but they don't call it chili crisp they don't call it chili crisp they don't call it chili crunch they call it culinary crunch That is interesting.

14:27That is just, that's like a word, well, a mini word salad of nothingness. I have to think, however. I mean, isn't every product culinary by definition? There's some lawyer out there who came up with that name. Do they have topical crunch, too, that you put on your skin? Because Mike would like that. Snacking crunch? Just as a point, I have to think that the folks from Heinz and their attorneys saw that chili crunch. There's seas of attorneys, Ray. Probably trademarked. Okay, okay. Probably trademarked. Hold on, let's go to the first step, which is the focus groups, where probably they had some people who were like, Chili Crunch, what the hell is that?

15:03What if we call it Culinary Crunch? Oh, I don't know. And then the lawyers had their better words. But then there's a statement of identity, too, that is Chili Pepper Crunch on here. And then they also have Crunch Sauce on the side. Now, what's interesting is this little goat partnered with Hidden Valley Ranch a year ago to create a ranch-flavored Chili Crunch. I would think that the lawyers from Hidden Valley would also have seen that Chili Crunch was trademarked and advised them not to use that term. This stuff looks really good, by the way, this little goat. The other thing about the homey that's interesting is it's sambal, which is, you know, traditional Singapore Chili Crunch that you can't typically get.

15:41It's kind of hard to get. It's so tasty. And she's trying to figure out, you know, okay, where does this fit? What is it? okay, it's a chili crunch. So I'm going to put it in that category. The point that we always make on the show, and I think the point that Marguerite was also making in your interview with her was that, yeah, the rising tide lifts all boats. So more than one chili crunch means you're taking, you know, these small founders who are building these products, come up with this word that makes a lot of sense to consumers and take share from other places versus from each other. There's one piece of the story we're missing here though, Ray.

16:17Which is what? That Simulio jumped in because he's an investor in Mila and wanted to do blind taste tests with people and said, hey, the winner keeps the word chili crisp. I don't think that's going to happen. How can you do a... It's a joke. He's making a joke. Yeah, I know. You also can't really do a taste test with chili crisp, right? You do one and your palate's like nuked. Exactly. I can do it. Jackie can do it. I am very sympathetic to everything that's going on and how brands are impacted by, you know, what's going on. I think, frankly, I have to look at this from Amafuku's perspective as well.

16:52Sure. And kind of share my thoughts and what they're trying to do. I would advise them if I were an advisor to Marguerite and David, I would say, look, I mean, maybe it is a good idea to drop this and, you know, kind of create some kumbaya among those makers of Chili Crunch and Chili Crisp and call it a day. That would be what I would advise, but it's probably not nearly as simple as that. Anyway, continue to follow this story on nosh.com. If you're an insider, you will hear the full story as it continues to unfold. To become an insider is very easy to go to nosh.com slash insider. The one thing that's missing from all Chili Crisp and Chili Crunch products, I think we know what this is, is an immune function, the functional benefit of immunity.

17:36That's right. This is just something I never get in my chili crunch, in my chili crisp. It just should be in a lot more things. And the way to do so, folks, brand owners and operators, is to incorporate Amuse, I-M-M-U-S-E, into your products. Amuse is the presenting sponsor of this episode of Taste Radio. Amuse is a dietary and food ingredient clinically shown to stimulate immune function at the cellular level. Incorporate Amuse into your innovation strategy and help your consumers optimize their health throughout the year. Learn more at amusehealth.com. That's I-M-M-U-S-E health.com. All right, folks, you probably didn't hear the five minute pause that we just took because Mike couldn't stop laughing about the product that I want to talk about, which is called Gut Nuts.

18:26Somehow that phrase he's going to follow. It's very triggering. He's going into conniptions over here. Gut Nuts is a brand of fermented or a product of fermented almonds and cashews from Philosopher Foods. Philosopher Foods is a maker of nut butters and whole fermented nuts. And they recently revamped the branding and package for Gut Nuts. It used to be in a jar and now it's in this pouch that just looks beautiful. It's in this three ounce pouch. the label itself looks mad pro and looks like it would definitely appeal to younger consumers and those that are looking for just kind of a modern take on whole almonds and cashews i just love this package design gut nuts is like top of the package fermented almonds right in the middle and then you have pictures of the almonds um at the bottom it is just fantastic have you had to have you tried this, John?

19:26Don't recall. Okay, you can rip that open. They're really tasty. I mean, I like anything that's like a little like funky. I feel like they taste like a little funky because the fermentation and the packaging definitely pops compared to I think they were in just like little glass jars before. So they definitely have more real estate to work with on the pouch. Yeah, nuts and glass jars was kind of weird. This is a lot more mainstream, I suppose. Yeah, I just feel like this offers them a lot more mainstream merchandising opportunities as well as those in natural just it gives you a better option in different aisles.

19:57Yeah, it looks like they're growing up from like something that's a little bit more craft or farmer's market to something that can hit shelves. Excellent way of putting it. Yeah, these are definitely pretty tasty. A little tang from the fermentation. Yeah. I kind of like it. Yeah, we featured founder Tim Richards on an episode of Elevator Talk earlier this year in which he talked about the evolution of this product line. And it was a great episode. If you are listening and you are an early stage founder and would like to join us for a future episode of Elevator Talk, head to BevNet or Nosh.com, search for Elevator Talk and apply for the show.

20:37We will get you into a future episode. We'll also put the link on how to apply in the show notes. All right. Mike finally stops crying. What do you have there? It looks like you have some eggs. I've got some mochi love. Have you had mochi love? No. look at that sample look at that there yeah obviously this is a sample pack of mochi love here but i've got the mango and passion fruit mochi treats here and this is um you know you've had mochi before but the difference between this and what you might have had is that this is refrigerated instead of frozen so it's got the squish squish it's got the squish all about the squish squish squish the squish is fun oh can you see the squish oh my goodness can't take this guy anywhere so these are not um these are not market ready products these are this is not market ready packaging these are samples that's a sample okay but i mean have you ever watched um like japanese tiktok i don't spend a lot of time on japanese tiktok i mean just watch watch japanese food reviews watch japanese people review food they talk about different stuff than you talk about they talk about like oil they talk about snap they talk about pop and and squish oh snap like like i feel like mukbangs is a big thing because it's all about like the asmr of eating you know all the sounds there's so many different ways to describe the mouth feel that we don't use and i love it i'm in for it i don't think i would like to hear people chewing i don't think that would be is that is that a thing on tiktok definitely yeah oh yeah no love it like someone crunching into like a crispy chicken wing you know that is satisfying i don't eat meat but that is satisfying And some people, you can watch them eat and it's like, that person is a beautiful eater.

22:21And then you see someone else eat and you're like, I can't watch. Dare I say that is fetishistic. Isn't that weird, Jackie? Or even people with like the long fingernails and they're like. Oh, for Christ. Okay, I'm moving on to the next product here. Everyone's gone out of their minds. Are you going to a straight to booze? We're going to race. You don't want to try that? No, you got to try it. Thank you. You got to try the tequila. So what kind of tequila? This is not your father's tequila. This is Chica Cheetah, which is, I hope I'm saying that right. Chica? Chica Cheetah. Yeah, why not? I don't know.

22:57It kind of rolled off the tongue a little weird, but it's kind of the same concept as maybe screwball whiskey, but peanut butter tequila? It's got like a Madre Mezcal vibe to it. It does. From what I understand... Oh, the peanut butter note on that is... Oh, it's very strong. I got a press release about this a couple of weeks back, and this is a spirit that was created in partnership with Sam Hirsch, who is the president and CEO of Pyrmont Brands. That smells great. And barstool sports personality, Caleb Presley. This is definitely akin to a screwball type of product, screwball whiskey, is that famous peanut butter whiskey, as John pointed out.

23:32It's quite sweet. It is quite sweet. Definite peanut butter and a little bit of, it's got sweeter notes than peanut butter on the nose and some floral notes. It's really good smelling. Yeah, the one thing that I'm a little disappointed in, and of course, you know, you'll probably figure out why, is that it is described on the back as an agave spirit with artificial peanut butter flavor. Now, you know, I'm not sure if any other peanut butter flavored spirit brands use artificial flavors or not. Does that mean that people who are allergic to peanuts can drink it? Possible. Okay, well, there's a reason.

24:08I mean, it doesn't have any sort of nut allergen warning, although typically people who are allergic to peanut butter are better safe than sorry. Yeah. Yeah, folks, which I don't blame them for. I wouldn't try it. It's interesting. It's interesting. Yes. Now, Caleb Presley, who I don't know from Barstool Sports, apparently this is a pretty well-known personality, said that is quoted in the press releases saying it's peanut butter, but better, but being spelled B-U-T. I say but B-U-T-T because Chica Cheetah makes my tonsils twerk and my brain bounce that ass. Clever marketing copy. Do you like the way I read that?

24:52Yeah, you're so matter of fact. With a serious tone. I love it. I don't think half of those words I ever thought were going to come out of your mouth. No, definitely not. Bounce that ass.

25:07Tonsils twerk. No, no. Tonsils twerking. How about one more? We'll have this lapos. L-A-P-O apostrophe S. Non-alcoholic Negroni. Right on my alley. Yeah. Gotta give this a swing. Andrea Hernandez. I saw that on her. Oh, none for us. Straight out of the can. None for us. None for us. Screw you guys. Put that on the Twitter. Delicious. It's good? Yeah. Is it carbonated? I think so. Beautiful looking can. It's so it's got a little tingle do it. It is so 1920s Into the peanut butter. Yeah, just check carbonation. Yeah, what do they call that 1920s kind of? Aesthetic vintage old-school retro. I don't know.

25:53No, there's a specific term associated with it. It's like Rolling I don't know what it is. Roaring 20s Is that what you're going for there, right? Sure. Sure. Okay, there you go it's a prohibition era it's a really something like that it's a really good looking can and uh definitely something i've been intrigued by until john drank it straight out of the can eight fluid ounces and i have an extra can i'm still i'm still intrigued yeah eight fluid ounces in a white can with uh red and gold lettering and imagery uh yeah ice looking product delicious too yeah well you have uh non-alc products over there I have a lot of products over here that tickle the brain.

26:34They are premium cocktails and also THC beverages. So I have Wink, which I love their products. Super tasty. I love that they have two different formats. So you can either have two and a half milligrams of THC, or you can have five milligrams. And it does include CBD too, which I personally have a better experience when you have both THC and CBD in the product. Wink being spelled W-Y-N-K. Yes. And it has a little wink on the, on the package. An eye wink. Yes. An eye wink. If you didn't see Jackie in the video, not to be confused with blinking her eye with her finger.

27:16My eye needed an assist. Does it look a little bit like the bubbly wink? The bubbly wink? What's the bubbly wink? You know, bubbly. Bubbly. Can you look? John, let Jackie finish what she's talking about without crunching into your crackers over here. Just snacking, Ray. Oh, for crying out loud. And then I also have two canned cocktails, RTD cocktails. One is a premium, like, margarita called Sola, S-O-U-L-A. And then one is a premium sake soda called Soke, which is kind of a fun name. Soke, sake. So cool to see some premium cocktails. And they're out of San Diego, both of those products. And with all this, this makes me just think of BevNet Live because we're going to have a ton of RTD cocktail content, hemp beverage content, also hemp and RTD cocktail sampling, as well as non-elk stuff for non-elk cocktails.

28:14Well done. We've just got every drinking occasion covered at BevNet Live. Yes. Everything's going to be packed into the two days. Well, we covered every base there with the Lappos, the Sola, the Sake, and the Wink. Well done, Jackie. And what do you got in your hand there, Mike? I've got an original sin. It says Widow's Tea Cider. It's kind of like a switchel. It's got ACV natural flavors, some raspberry juice, lemon juice, black tea extract, apple juice concentrate, and a little bit of monk fruit. It's pretty tasty. See, they've got a few different varieties. I like the Blackberry the best. Widow's Tea Cider.