Not Preaching, Just Better. A New Pitch For Moderation & Wellness.

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0:39Hello, and thanks for tuning in to Taste Radio, the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. I'm Ray Lateef, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and I'm joined by my co-hosts, John Craven, Jackie Brugliera, and Mike Schneider. In this episode, we return to an instant classic networking event hosted by Naturally San Diego earlier this month. I sit down with beverage industry veteran Kevin Clock, who's back in the game with his moringa-infused brand, Orange Toucan. And Keegan Fong, founder of Woon, a modern CPG brand inspired by his family's beloved Chinese restaurants.

1:21I didn't get to try any Woon, but supposedly their restaurants are pretty damn awesome. And I would love to visit them. They're in L.A. I think both of them are in L.A. We've got to make this happen. We're going to make it happen. Press junket. Is that a thing anymore? 2025? I don't think they're going to pay for us to go out there. Oh, well. We're looking for any excuse to get out of here. Jackie, not so much. But in the Boston area, we were hit with a major snowstorm. I think we got 20 inches, which is not fun. Everyone's been digging out for the past two days. So I figure, why don't we just take a road trip down south?

1:52How about south Florida? How's that sound to you, Mike? I mean, I'm not driving. Yeah, you're flying, right? I'm pretty happy about the snow because I still need to cool off after the United win over Arsenal. Okay. Hey, you want to go there, huh? I already went there. All right. All right. You guys watched the Patriots game too. Yeah, that was crazy. Yeah. Well, I've been on kind of a high because, yes, United did beat Arsenal in another instant classic. It was a really great game. No, that was a great game. Great goals by United. They took their chance. They're doing all the right things right now, and it shows.

2:22Yeah. I'm not gloating. You brought it up. No, it's true, though. To all United fans who are listening out there, I'm glad we're in the midst of a nice week. because anytime United wins, it's like the greatest thing that has ever happened. Three more wins for a special haircut. Exactly, exactly. Now I mentioned we're going to head down to South Florida, specifically to Miami. We're going to be hosting yet another meetup in that amazing city, this being the first of 2026. We have seven scheduled for this year, and South Florida will be our first stop. February 18th, that's a Wednesday, the live podcast and networking event is going to be held at Casa La Rubia.

2:59which is in the city's Wynwood neighborhood. We're going to be there from 5 to 7.30 p.m. Industry networking, adult and non-alcoholic BEVS, Mike. But of course, Mike, John, and I will be there to mingle and to muse. Jackie is unable to come because she's hiking Everest. Is that right? That's why you can't come? Yes, yes. Currently training, actually, for Everest. Yes. And you don't really hike Everest, by the way, folks. No, just casually on a weekend. Just head on over. Day tripper. Once again, Wednesday, February 18th, we encourage you to BYOS. What does that mean? It means bring your own samples.

3:35So if you are a founder, you're an operator, you're someone who works for a CPG company, please bring samples of your products because we want to try them. And of course, other attendees want to as well. So if you want to attend, you're more than welcome to just to show up. But we would prefer, please, if you could register, please do so at tasteradio.com slash events slash Miami. But I think we can shorten that. We'll probably shorten that to tasteradio.com slash Miami. No, no, not happening. It's just tasteradio.com slash events slash Miami. Okay. Obviously we need the dot com on there. Okay.

4:09Also, huge thank you to our partners for the event itself. Obviously, Casa La Rubia. We also have vibrant ingredients in matriarch wealth management partnering up with us for Miami. So thank you so much to all of those amazing companies and firms. Casa La Rubia owned by AB InBev too. So I don't know. Thank you to them as well. Yes. Thank you to them as well. If you're listening and you're interested in partnering with us for the Miami event or any of the other six meetups we're hosting this year, which include New York, Austin, Chicago, San Diego, San Francisco, and London, just let us know. We would love your support.

4:49We would love to host you for an interview and help you get the word out about what you're doing in this amazing industry of food and beverage. So just send us an email. You can reach us at ask at taste radio.com. You can email me directly. Our Latif at BevNet.com as well. So Madonna. I'm going to go there. Yeah. Just going to put that out there. Madonna. Yeah. I really haven't listened to much Madonna music in a while. So I'm kind of an old school Madonna fan. 80s, some 90s, but mostly 80s. I could see you voguing. Vogue? I'm not. Come on. Let's see it. I need an AI video of that. No AI videos of Ray.

5:25Ray. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I ban those. I ban those. Ray is a material girl. Would you settle for me? I love material. That's a great song. I would settle for any of you voguing. Okay, we'll work on that. Yeah, okay. I never really loved the song Papa Don't Preach, but it's a good song. I like that song. Very popular song. It's a good song. Yeah. Weird song, but good song. I think CPG companies are heeding that message about not preaching. I just feel like there's a lot less specific marketing about not drinking alcohol, particularly for this month itself. and companies are trying to find new ways to communicate moderation, self-guidance, and optionality when it comes to consumption and lifestyle habits.

6:04I mean, I think the need for the companies making the products to be educators of things like dry January or sobriety is becoming less and less. I mean, it really probably isn't even necessary at this point. Although Dry January certainly presents an opportunity for awareness or, you know, new products and whatnot from companies that are producing adult non-alcoholic beverages. So, but very different than a couple of years ago where I think, yeah, some brands were trying really, really hard to get signal over Dry January. So. It's still a thing. We're seeing companies just treat it differently.

6:43They're saying, who cares about Dry January instead of, As John said, just really leaning into it. Yeah, I think consumers are more focused on balance. I think a lot of consumers are burnt out on like bad. You know, there's been so much advertising about sugar's bad, fat's bad, alcohol's bad. And I think people just want to be able to be more fluid in their decisions. So why not damp January? You know, why not just make better decisions? You're seeing people drink less alcohol, but still drink alcohol. you're seeing people be flexitarians because, you know, they just want more flexibility in what they're consuming.

7:19You know what really did not help dry January? What's that? In the Boston area, 20 inches of snow and Patriots going to the Super Bowl. But anyway. Damp January. You can drink for that. No, I mean, I don't know. I think it's one of those things where, you know, it's kind of like there's some people who like, you know, if you belong to a gym, it's like loaded with people in January who were like, I'm going to turn over a new leaf, try something, you know, whatever, get healthy to start the year. I think that's kind of where dry January is at too, which, you know, the question with it is obviously with the gym thing, there's like a lot of people that trail off and, you know, do people trail off or are they looking at it as, you know, lifestyle change or just something of, you know, maybe They'll moderate once in a while.

8:04But yeah, it's definitely at like a different stage at this point. Yeah, I think dry January also aligned a lot with New Year's resolutions. And I've personally seen a lot of people maybe going away from resolutions and just being like, what do I want to do generally in my life that is, you know, attainable, not something that I'm just going to do for a couple weeks and then get, you know, bummed that I didn't continue. Part of this is just the fact that people are a lot more in touch with their emotions and their goals, going to therapy, talking about it with everybody that will listen. And so goal setting goes right along with that.

8:38So it's just a part of people's lives now. I think that companies are recognizing everything that you guys just mentioned and are tailoring new marketing initiatives to meet that consumer with whatever it is they're experiencing at this point in their lives. Recess, the brand of modern beverages, including their Mood line of beverages, which are infused with magnesium and tended to help you chill or relax or what have you. They also market a great line of mocktails. They launched a new campaign earlier this month in which they just put out their perfection is a terrible New Year's resolution. And they talk about how January doesn't need a new you, just a more balanced one.

9:24And the last part of the message is a drink, meaning recess, for people tired of pretending January changes everything, which I think is really the truth here that no one has really wanted to say out loud, but people feel more comfortable saying that. Well said recess. That was much better than I said it. Yeah. And so, So, you know, Ben Whitty, who's the founder and CEO, spoke about this in a story written by our dear friend and colleague, Martin Caballero. He said, it's always been my view of recess that we are one of you, not above you. We're not trying to speak down to you. And I think people connected with that idea because it's representative of reality.

10:03I do think alcohol serves a purpose in people's lives. And I think the whole conversation about the death of alcohol, even amongst Gen Z, is dramatically overstated, which I think he's hit the nail on the head on that one, in my opinion. I also thought Athletic Brewing did a really good job with their campaign where they used to say, you know, do a dry January or whatever it was. And they crossed out the word dry and inserted the word athletic. And I think it's really more about, hey, try to be a better you or a better version or a healthier version of you than like a different version of you that didn't exist before January.

10:42And it speaks to athletics emphasis on helping people live better lives throughout the year versus just one month. Because as we know, so many people start out doing January and having an idea of what they want to accomplish from a lifestyle or wellness goals. And then they end up stopping mid-month or doing it for a month and then going and, you know, engorging on food or alcohol once February 1st begins. Lastly, I had an opportunity to speak with the brilliant Amy Taylor, who's the CEO of Zevia. We featured that episode or featured that interview in an episode that was published on Tuesday of this week.

11:19Folks who know Amy know that she was a longtime marketing executive and president of Red Bull North America for almost two decades. She was with the company almost as soon as they came to the United States. Now she's the CEO of Zevia, which is a brand of modern sodas that is sweetened with Stevia. Now, I know people have preconceived notions about Stevia and Zevia, but in this interview, you'll understand why you might want to give it another shot. But their campaign this year was titled Zetox, and they were trying to get people to detox from their high-calorie, high-sugar sodas. And I love this.

11:54I love this headline, or at least this tagline, quit soda with soda. So they're not telling you don't drink soda. They're just saying drink a better version of soda. And one of the most poignant moments in the interview with Amy was when she said, don't lecture the consumer. one of the reasons we were so specific about what we put on our package is that we're going to say what we are on our package and if in an interested if an interested consumer wants to go deeper they can double click on our website but beyond that the most credible form of communication is other people talking about us in other words the more you talk about yourself as one thing or the other the more people are going to tune out unless it's someone they trust like people don't necessarily trust brands.

12:38Like we always talk about this, like how do you build trust with a consumer? You build trust by other people telling you about why they should like this product or why they might take a second chance or a second look at a brand like Zevia. I like them telling you what it is as well, because there's so much this isn't, this isn't in marketing right now that I think we've forgotten to really be able to explain what we do simply. And that's, that's the key. Yeah. I think you really nailed it there, Mike. There's so much of what we are not or what we don't have, but what are you? I mean, this is a real big problem in politics, right?

13:12I mean, everyone always talks about, well, that guy's doing that or this person's doing that. And someone's like, well, what are you doing? Right? I mean, that is an issue for sure. that's one of the one of a few issues that are happening in modern american politics look i think it it's pretty hard to really truly do that in kind of like an absolutist way though like xevia still will call itself zero calories right so like you're kind of doing it right there and you know i agree like for marketing copy like talking about who you are versus what you aren't is good but yeah i think that's a real a real challenge right now for brands across a lot of different categories how so i mean just that it can't truly be like a positive like this is what we are and completely avoiding what you aren't here's what i'll say and we've talked about this ad nauseum on the podcast but i'll bring it up one more time plant-based meat right plant-based meat often talks about what they're not when they're not animal-based protein but what are you.

14:14And I think once they get into the what are you, what are your ingredients, what comprises this quote-unquote meat that you're selling, that's where they really run into trouble. It's hard because they always have to compare themselves to the texture or the taste of animal-based protein. And once you start digging in a little bit, you're like, okay, well, if it tastes like this and the texture is like this, but it has 18 times the number of ingredients, I'm a little wary of that. So I think that's where what you're kind of referring to. Another important thing to do is to not throw the kitchen sink at your marketing too, because if you try to talk about all the things that your beverage is or your, or your food is on front of pack, well, you're going to end up with an, with an eye chart.

15:04And so it's important to make decisions, which I think is another thing that trying to do here. I would advise folks to continue thinking about moderation and giving the consumer sort of self-determinism in how they think about and use your product. And certainly we're seeing a lot of that in terms of user-generated content on social media and how that is enhancing and informing marketing campaigns for CPG companies. So I imagine in 2026, we'll continue to see a lot more of this. Let's help the consumer make a good informed decision versus telling them what to do. Obviously, dry January is an opportunity for a lot of folks to try new non-alcoholic products that they may not have considered in the past.

15:52And I, ironically, visited the Mohegan Sun Wine and Food Fest this past weekend. Now, it is what you might expect it to be. It is a festival, three-day festival, where they They feature all kinds of wines from around the world. They feature celebrity chefs who are there cooking up delicious foods. This could be branded the Ray Latif Festival. I was there for a handful of hours on one day, so I wasn't there very long. But during the grand tasting part of this event, in addition to all the wine producers they have at this tasting, they had a number of distilleries and breweries that were marketing their products.

16:33And so there's a local company here in the Boston area known as Bully Boy, Bully Boy Distillers. If you recall, we sat down with the founders a few years ago at their location in New Market Square in Boston. So they have some fantastic whiskeys. They make a great bourbon. They also make some great bottled cocktails. They have a Negroni and a Manhattan that are fantastic. They recently introduced some spirit-free cocktails because I think they recognize that not everyone is going to want to drink bourbon and Negronis all the time. So they have two varieties. These are called intermezzo. Great name, right?

17:12Sure. Intermezzo. So they have an Alpine highball and they have a sunset spritz. Let's start with the Alpine highball, which is inspired by the flavors of Alpine Amaro and crafted without the buzz for those in-between moments. and if you notice on the can which is beautifully designed they have a zebra on the lower right hand corner of the label why zebra striping right does everyone know what zebra striping is yes i do jackie you look confused when you alternate drinks yeah well you go in between alcohol no alcohol yeah all right so that's darker than i thought it was going to be the salpine one it doesn't have it's not cold sorry guys it's okay all right that's for mr craven that's over the laptop

18:00pretty solid that's very tasty yeah it's good stuff i bet it even be better really cold but uh or the splash of booze geez guy wow okay let's try this uh sunset spritz which is inspired by coastal Italian libations and crafted, again, without the buzz for those in-between moments. All right. I like the way that sits with you after you've already sipped it. Yeah, this feels very much like a Campari spritz or an Aperol spritz kind of product. That's what it looks like, I assume. Yeah, it certainly looks like one. Just a scotch. That's good. You don't want to get all banged up? No, I got to drive home.

18:38Okay, well done. I think I like the first one better, but that's solid too. I think I like the Sunset better, but they're both good. Yeah, the first one is definitely a different type of cocktail. I don't know what the comparison would be, what the comparable cocktail would be for the Alpine one. Some sort of other spritz, I don't know. Okay. Uco spritz? I don't know, just throwing out names here. Weird cold vibe going on. Bully Boy Distillers, fantastic brand. And so I also learned that they're going to bring more of these to market, as well as their own canned cocktails that we'll be seeing in the months to come.

19:10ahead of major trade shows food and beverage professionals across the industry are turning to bevnet and nosh to stay informed if you have a brand update share it with us at submit.bevnet.com forward slash news i've got a product i like it already it's called pretentious coffee with a tagline of probably too good for you. I mean, I don't know. That's kind of preachy, right? Yeah. We'll have to have a, I don't know, barista test after here. It's in tennis ball cans. I like it. Yeah, it feels like a tennis ball can. Are those beans? It's coffee beans in a, I don't know, kind of has the footprint of like a 19.2.

19:56Like a Pringles can? Jeez, bro. Oh, my goodness. Wow. Yeah, it popped open. It exploded. Whoa. Maybe we had it too long. I don't know. Okay. I'm going to explain. Maybe you shook it up. Explain to listeners exactly what just happened. Unfortunately, I didn't get hit by that. Yeah, that was wild. No, like, okay. I'm sure you're supposed to slowly open it, and I just yanked it. So did you know, do you recall Blue Bottle had a similar? That smells pretty awesome. It says roasted to perfection. Don't screw it up, and look what you just did. I screwed it up. I already screwed it up. Do you recall Blue Bottle had a similar package where they sealed their beans in a can just like that?

20:37And as soon as it was on the market, it was off the market. And I wonder if that's the reason why. I mean, because that's why when you buy coffee beans, they have that little vent ventilation thing on the front of the back. Yeah, and those little seals are like crowned. Yeah, there's no ventilation here, hence the explosion. Well, I don't know. It smells really good. But it almost killed you. almost kill me i really like the idea of artisanal nihilism that's pretty great on the on the can here and i'm excited for this one to blow up too so so yeah we're gonna have a cortado test uh real quick what are the two skews we have here oh reserve and this is just this is just whole bean coffee and that one's reserve yeah all right pretentious coffee pretentious in all seriously interesting packaging format i do want to hear from the founders about how you should open it without.

21:26Let's put the lid back on and let's try it later. Okay. Moving on to a snack product. Okay. Fresh from the mailbag here we have Munches tortilla chips with beef tallow. Oh yeah. What's the name of the brand? Munches. How do you spell it? M-A-N-C-H-A-S. Munches. Okay. Let's see here. Munches. Anyone? Yes. Beef tallow. Okay. So these are tortilla chips. Oh look at that. I like the design there. It's a little throwback ish. It looks like a what I would describe as a cowgirl riding giraffe slash horse weird interesting that is accurate it's supposed to be a horse but it does look giraffey I mean definitely tastes like a tortilla chip with beef tallow I did try one potato chip one time with beef tallow and it's just the beef tallow really is very strong it's assertive it's assertive yeah yeah I like this Can we talk about beef tallow for a second?

22:26Yeah, go ahead. Are you going to start rubbing it off? Only a second. Are you going to start rubbing it off your face? I'm good. I know beef tallow has been a hot ingredient of late, particularly for fried products, potato chips, tortilla chips, what have you. You know, it's used a lot in London or in England when they're making fried fish. I think that's the traditional way of frying fish is using beef tallow. I think for as much enthusiasm as there is for the ingredient in our industry, I think there's going to be a massive education hurdle for this to become a mainstream thing. You know, we're already seeing it pop up in frozen foods, French fries.

23:03You know, Jesse and Ben's is a good example of a frozen French fry brand that uses beef tallow for some of their products. Again, especially with all the Maha stuff going on, I almost feel like it's going to be kind of divisive beef tallow. So I would caution brands that are really embracing this ingredient before they go too deep. It's definitely a test and learn kind of thing for me. It is. I mean, I think if I were giving constructive feedback to manchas, I think there are two things that stand out for me. One is the actual tortilla chip isn't like the fanciest tortilla chip I've ever had. And two is just the size of the bag seems really, really small relative to like your standard giant ass bag of tortilla chips.

23:43It's packed. It's a packed bag. It is. And it's not, you know, a lot of tortilla chips come into those bags. A hundred percent. Tons of air. I think that's just one of those things that from a shelf presence perspective, I think is kind of like a proven thing in the chip category. The chips are kind of mini, but they're still good dipping chips. Yeah, definitely would be good dipping chips. I appreciate that. Because they're thick enough. Yeah. At this point, it very much feels like a specialty food brand, a brand that you would definitely see in Erewhon. I think as they continue to think about scaling, they may have to move into a different size package for sure.

24:17They might have to think about their giraffe horse. It's a cute photo. I mean, like, it's a great art. How would you describe that art? It's like caricature art kind of thing? Yeah, character art. Artisanal character art. I like it. Okay, fair enough. Jackie, what do you got over there? You got all kinds of, like... I have a couple things. What is that? Oh, I saw those in the office. Yeah. Yeah, so these guys were at Fancy Fair called Long Weekend, and they are a line of instant, premium instant soups. So all the ingredients are freeze-dried. You just add hot water and then you have a delicious soup and they have carrot ginger.

24:54They have minestrone. We got Thai coconut curry. And then we also have tomato bisque. And I tried these at the show and they were really, really good. The flavor was definitely, you know, nuanced and complex and very low calorie too. Like a whole thing of the Thai curry is only 200 calories. And everything else looks good on the ingredient panel too. I'm really liking, you know, just dehydrated, freeze-dried products these days. I think, like, they've been really tasty. Like the Cumin Club, they have really good products, too. That's phenomenal. You just add water, and it's like, wow, this is delicious.

25:33So, yeah, and it's shelf-stable. Can we talk about the Cumin Club for a second? I mean, well, I grabbed those, by the way. When I saw 12 to 16 inches of snow coming, I grabbed the Long Weekend, because Long Weekend coming, obviously. so oh i just got that human club i used to kind of like you know the trader joe's packs of of doll and uh masala and that are not freeze-dried right that are not freeze-dried yeah and now that i've had cumin club i can't even eat those anymore because cumin club is so good it's so good and it's so simple like you just add water and in a couple minutes you have something that tastes delicious in a couple minutes you're at the shum we featured cumin club in a recent episode of Elevator Talk that was published on January 21st.

26:18Brilliant episode. I highly recommend you check it out. It was co-hosted by our dear friend Caroline Grace of Product and Prosper. And we also featured a brand called Green and Sunny and Shuka Sauce, which everyone knows Shuka Sauce if you attended Nosh Live. What an episode. Yeah, it really is a great one. And just a pitch for Elevator Talk. If you're interested in participating in a future episode of that show, just let us know or you can head to taste radio.com drop down menu you'll see a tab that says elevator talk and how to apply if this was a video show we'd definitely have uh joe go back to when john opened the can and have it blow up again why are we why are we coming back to that that was very scary actually i was not prepared for that it was awesome yeah it was awesome oh geez mike's got a shot i've got a shot today with an interesting name it's boop b-o-o-p which is pretty close to another word.