Own & Infer – Behind The Scenes Of A 'Perfect' Brand Refresh

0:10Hello and thanks for tuning in to taste radio the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage. I'm Ray Lateef, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and with my co-hosts for this episode, John Graven, Jackie Brugliera, and Mike Schneider. In this episode, we go behind the scenes of a high-profile brand refresh with veteran designer and Sweet 9C founder Paula Grant, along with Yanni Huffnagle, the founder of Lemon Perfect. Together, they share insights into the collaboration to elevate the label and packaging of the Enhanced Water brand. That was right after our Taste Radio NYC meetup.

0:50We were on the cusp of our Taste Radio Austin meetup. If you hear the echo, that's because we're recording in the kitchen at our Airbnb here. A cavernous place. Our bachelor pad. It is bachelor pad-ish. I'm not really too familiar with bachelor pads anymore. Right, me neither. Yeah. Anyway. For the record. Yeah, yeah. Hey, did you guys get into any of the Dolly the Sheep cloning technology that Yanni's been using? You know, we met his clone, Seth Rosenberg, the founder of Lemonuka at the Beverage Forum. There's a guy who's making this new lemonade beverage. It's a lemonade and it's a tea. And he's a 15-year-old kid.

1:29He's a good dude. Okay. Well, I have not heard anything about that, but thanks for sharing. They wear the same outfit and Yanni's like mentoring him. He's such a good dude. I can't wait to hear the conversation. Yeah. Wow. I'm expecting we're going to be sitting down with Seth for a future episode of Elevator Talk, our bi-monthly series that highlights early stage and disruptive brands from across the food and beverage industry. Going to see a bunch of new and interesting brands at our Austin meetup tonight. Thank you so much again to our partners for the event, Torchy's Tacos, Matriarch Wealth Management, Sovereign Flavors, Better Sour Skew, and Golden Key Ingredients.

2:05Now, the weather is supposed to be nice tonight. Well, hot and sticky, but, you know, sunny. Wow, we're in a tornado watch. I know. During the event. Everyone buckle down. We're on a patio, too. So we'll see how that goes. Get blown away. Yeah, it's raining. It has been pouring since we got here. I was hoping, coming from our respective places of Boston and San Diego, that we would have mildly better weather here in Austin. But no, no, not at all. Nope. It's coming down in sheets. It really is. But at least the food is great. You know, the food here in Austin, well known as being delicious. We went to one of the best, in my opinion, restaurants in Austin, the Dead Rabbit Austin.

2:48This is their branch out here in Texas built out of their location in New York City, their iconic location in New York City. I should say the one in Wall Street or in the Wall Street neighborhood. I feel like it did the New York location justice, but it was a restaurant onto its own in Austin. So really great stuff from the food to the cocktails, the service, the ambiance. Everything was fantastic. Get zero and the flatbread. How about the fish and chips? Shout out to that. I know, the fish and chips was delicious. And the deviled eggs with lobster on top. All good. I mean, they do a great job.

3:22And, Jackie, the oysters. Oh, the oysters were really good. P-E-I, oysters. I know. People were a little skeptical of our choice, Ray, but I think we made the right decision. I leaned in. There we go. Most definitely. and we got a little inside information that they get their oysters on Mondays and we were there on a Monday. We knew. I assume they get their oysters other days of the week as well but it's not just Monday. Ray was worried and then she's like, nope, today's the day. They were delicious. Hopefully we'll get back there at some point because I got to get back to Austin out of this day and a half of gloomy weather.

3:58Hopefully we'll come back here and it won't be that way But I'm very excited to head back to New York City for BevNet Live summer 2025. Really, really thrilled at the announcement that Dan Lawrence, who is the co-founder and CEO of Ghost, the brand of energy drink, hydration beverages, recovery beverages, will take the stage at BevNet Live following the company's majority sale to Keurig Dr. Pepper. Do you all remember that? That was in October 2024. The company at the time of the majority acquisition was valued at$1.65 billion. So not too shabby. No. Yeah. So Dan's going to talk about how to make your brand attractive to strategics.

4:43So that now live June 11th and 12th, New York city, right around the corner, Ray. Yeah. Right around the corner away. Is it? Yeah. Oh man. Five weeks. Five weeks. Well, as of this recording, It's not far off. Yeah. It'll be 4.5 weeks. Yeah. I mean, when you publish this episode. Yeah, because May has 31 days. You know, it's the next day. Complicated math, right? Yes. Exactly. Nice work, Ray. Exactly. Big news in the business of Yerba Mate. And you know who else is going to be taking the stage? Yerba Madre? Well, Ben Mand. Ben Mand, who is the CEO of a company that we all used to know as Guayaquil.

5:23It's no longer known as that. It's known as, as Mike said, Yerba Madre. That is pretty amazing. Now, the writing was on the wall because we started to see Guayaki move away from their logo on their cans and more prominently feature the words Yerba Mate on their cans. And so last week they made the leap and announced that they're becoming Yerba Madre. Wise. I think this is wise. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people don't know how to say Guayaki, you know, and they were just calling it. Yerba, because that's the main ingredient. Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is something you really don't see, though. Like, I mean, the company's been around for, jeez, how long?

6:0415 plus years? It's unprecedented. So changing your name after that period of time, as well as, I think we've, I feel like we've seen more companies that try to break away from having their brand literally tied to a specific ingredient, and they're just doubling down. So, yeah, not saying that's a bad thing. It's just, I think, a really unique strategy and also, I mean, a pretty amazing kind of turnaround for that brand too. We always tell brands it's not the best thing to name yourself after your ingredient or your product because you might want to extend yourself. But I think at this point they kind of know who they are.

6:44They're clearly not extending. Clearly they know who they are. Yeah, they're not going anywhere else but the Yuramate category. I read a great post penned by our friend Fred Hart, who will be joining us on stage at Bevanet Live as a judge for the new Beverage Showdown. Stay tuned for that. Nice. Fred, as most folks know, is a brilliant designer. He's been working with beverage brands and food brands for quite some time. You might know him best for the creation of the Monster Energy logo. So he knows a thing or two. But yeah, in this post he had mentioned, for years Guayaquil fought two uphill battles, teaching consumers about Yerba Mate and familiarizing them with how to say and remember Guayaquil.

7:27So for him, he described this movie as a masterclass in brilliant brand strategy. I think it remains to be seen. You know, we don't know for sure how this is going to pan out. But I do think it's bold, and I think Ben Mann should be congratulated on taking on such a challenging and probably needed endeavor, but one that is, to say the least, bold and unprecedented. So, yeah. Good job, Yorba Madre. I was about to say Gwaii Key. Also in the news, GoXL, so GoPuff, has decided to create a new platform or extend their platform into supersized sales. So they're going to be selling, I guess, Costco-ish sizes of products that they typically sell.

8:26So instead of selling one Uncrustable for$1.99, they're going to be selling 10 Uncrustables for about$10. So, you know, multi-packs of— Wait, 10 cases of Uncrustables or no? No. Just 10. Just 10. Interesting. That's XL. Yeah. I love GoPuff. That's your contribution to this conversation? Well, this is why I like GoPuff here. Let me show you this little screenshot here. What is it? Eggs? Yeah, everything's eggs. Oh, look at the prices. Look at the price. They are affordable, yes. $2. $2 eggs. They are on sale. I don't know if I want to put that on. No, they've always been$2 in the past. Well, that's because they are lost leaders.

9:08That's what I'm saying. But it's a sneaky little thing that they've been doing that I think is pretty genius. Well, you know what's a great hack for eggs? Go to Wegmans. All right. Inside humor, long-time listeners, loyal listeners of the show will know what I'm talking about. No, and anyway, I mean, so they're going to have multi-pack lines of bulk products, about 300 items available for home delivery, including Chobani yogurt, its own. Basically, they have a basically private label line. It's called basically Nissan Cup Noodles, chicken flavors. I got to wonder, is this a harbinger for things to come?

9:45Is value the name of the game for 2025? I think so. I mean, have you ever been to Costco or BJ's? They're always swamps. Like it's never not. Yeah, it's never not busy. I think people are like maybe cooking at home more. They're buying in bulk. They're trying to maximize savings. Groceries are expensive. Why would that be? Why would they want to maximize savings right now? I can't think of a reason. I have no idea. I mean, they are trying to outrun the tariffs right now too. Yeah, I think. So stock up on stuff. Yeah, it's weird though, because GoPuff has been known for convenience, for instant convenience.

10:20It never has really been known for a place where you would stock up on things. Even if those things are things you eat on a regular basis, I guess it's a good move. I don't know if there are customers who are asking for such things as a GoPuff customer, John. I mean, is this something that attracts you? No, I mean, I use GoPuff a lot. And it's not a place that I associate with bulk buying. And if they can change that, I think that's pretty smart. Yeah, it might be smart for them as a business model to make less trips to the consumer and save money on that front. Well, if they have the inventory, it's certainly testable.

10:52They just have to, you know, do a little bit of tech. There's probably some, you know, AI stuff helping them figure out the extensions of their technology now. And, I mean, it just seems like a really nice move for them. Well, again, it remains to be seen if customers start thinking of GoPuff as a place not only to get instant convenience, but 12 packs of toilet paper. I like that that's Excel. What else could they have called it? Well, I think for them it's smart because what you think of as GoPuff is like John said, you're getting like, oh, I need a Snickers right now, GoPuff. It's weird. Yeah, but you do need toilet paper in an instant.

11:30So you might need 12 rolls of toilet paper. That was, if you step back. After the dead rabbit. What? No, no, no, definitely not. No, no. Yeah. Anyway, I'll leave that. No, the oysters are very fresh. Yeah. We'll move on to something that's decidedly less controversial, Kimbala. John and Mike had the opportunity this morning to go meet with the founder of Kimbala, which is a maker of ready-to-drink chai products. Tell us all about it. Yeah, we got to meet with Madhu this morning and had a great conversation with him about operations of his business. He's a great product guy who has a sense of the things that he wants to do and the things that are possible.

12:17And, you know, we kind of talked a little bit about what's next for his brand and where's it going to head. And it was just a great conversation. He's always a good person to catch up with. For sure. For sure. I'm really excited to meet a lot of other early stage founders and established ones or founders of established brands tonight at our meetup. This episode will be published after the event and we'll talk about the event in next week's episode. But once again, thank you to everyone who's attending. Thank you to our amazing partners for the event. once again, Torchy's Tacos, Matriarch Wealth Management, Sovereign Flavors, Better Sour Skew, and Golden Key Ingredients, the best in the business.

12:55Quick break. If this episode has you thinking about what's next in food and beverage, explore BevNet and Nosh Insider, our subscription platform with deeper insights from the BevNet team. Visit tasteradio.com slash insider to learn more. All right, it's time to dive into our featured interview for this episode, a conversation with Paula Grant, the founder of creative studio Sweet 9C, and Yanni Huffnagle, the founder of enhanced water brand Lemon Perfect. Together, they unpack the collaborative journey behind Lemon Perfect's recent refresh of its packaging and visual identity. With an eye toward positioning the brand as a billion-dollar contender that can, quote, go anywhere, Paula and Yanni explore the dynamics of their creative partnership, the power of visual storytelling and the importance of designing not just for today, but for the brand's future.

13:49Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now, I am honored to be sitting down with Paula Grant and Yanni Huffnagle of Sweet 9C and Lemon Perfect, respectively. Paula, great to see you. Hi, great to see you too. Again, we've hung out at least 18 of the past 24 hours. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Thank you for your event last night. The Taste Radio event in New York City was off the hook. We got to mingle with a lot of entrepreneurs. And then luckily, some of the people came here for an after party. So thank you so much for hosting the event in New York City. And we were proud to sponsor it and coming to Suite 9C after.

14:21Yeah, we are here in Suite 9C in Soho. And we did have a little bit of a post event gathering here, which you were so gracious to host. And it was outstanding. So thank you so much again. And you invited Yanni. Yes. The following day to come out here. And here we are. It's so great to see you, Yanni. How are you? It's awesome being here. I feel like I'm in the presence of genius with Paula and with you, with what Paula's done here at Suite 9C and throughout her career and what you've done to build not only Taste Radio and this podcast, but the entire BevNet organization. So impressive. Thank you so much for saying that.

14:54I'm pretty sure at this point, everyone knows what Lemon Perfect is. And Yanni, you and I sat down about three years ago for Taste Radio, and I really loved our conversation. How's the brand doing? I mean, since over the past three years, I know it must feel like chaos all the time, but where are you at right now with Lemon Perfect? Well, I don't think I've ever been more excited for our future than I am sitting here today. And Paula and Sweet 9C deserve so much credit for me feeling that way. Look, we're in year seven. We've sold a hundred million bottles. We had a really challenging 2024 driven by some product quality issues that we had to go through.

15:31Look, we have made some incredible improvements to the product. And we felt like when we reintroduced the improved formula and the protected bottle, now we have oxygen scavengers, UV blockers, nitrogen dosing, all those things to ameliorate any of what we went through with the product issues last year. But we felt like we had to refresh the packaging to re-announce ourselves to the world. And that's where Paula and her team came in. And the resulting artwork product is, the response has been unlike anything that I would have thought. I mean, outstanding. Paula, before we hopped in the mics, you were talking about how that design process can feel so strict for founders sometimes in that they don't have a lot of options.

16:18Why do you feel like the design community sometimes can put clamps on a founder in terms of what they want out of their design. Right. Well, this was a conversation that we were having about the amount of work, what's in the proposal, how we come to the table as designers. And I actually love what happened with Yanni and we try to do this with entrepreneurs. I do a lot of like sitting side by side. We talked about this, designing in hand with people. It should be collaborative, right? Like Yanni created this product. He's a creative person. Entrepreneurs, when they come to the table with something, it's like they have a lot of stuff in their head and they're inherently very creative people.

16:58It's almost a disservice to hire an agency where it's like, oh, I'm going to come back at you with like five ideas and this is what we think. Well, being an entrepreneur myself, I think that's what maybe makes it a little bit different. I was an entrepreneur myself. I know what it takes to build a brand. And sometimes you're even listening to a retailer. There's a lot of things in play and designers and design agencies often come at it like, I'm a designer and this is what I think and this is what you should do. And you get like four options. That may sound like a lot, but four or five is really not a lot.

17:28No, it's not. And it's not collaborative either. I want to put like 20 things out on the table and mood boards or whatever, exactly what we've done. And say like, we've explored every single, I'm going to swear, fucking possibility that there is in the world. Lemon Perfect wanted to own lemons. right? That means owning yellow. They wanted to come at it with this tastes good. Okay. How do we make it taste good? On the package. On the packaging. You have to look at it. You have two seconds to introduce yourself to somebody on the shelf, right? Like, do I taste good? Am I impactful? Is lemon my superpower?

18:04Right? So we had to explore this in many, many, many different ways. And so Yanni had to sit through this process, which I think he liked where it was like, you know, a gazillion things on the table and on the wall. What I really love is the co-creation of the whole thing. And I have to say like Yanni as a founder, making a bold move, exactly what you said, where it's like recognizing that you need to make change, not only in product and formulation in order to evolve, but then in packaging. And he has a board. He has people like, why are you making such a big change? But he was very bold in that.

18:37And we worked together and we were able to do that. I think collaboration is the way to go. So for all designers out there, collaborate with your founders. If you're lucky enough to work with founders, they're brilliant, collaborate. It's a really good point you make. I think sometimes founders don't necessarily know what they want. It can be hard to figure out, especially if you don't have a lot of data, focus groups, survey information from folks who are telling you this needs to change. You have to have kind of a large sample size to figure out. Is everyone saying the same thing sometimes? But did you have a sense, Yanni, of what you wanted to see out of the new package?

19:15I'm reading from an article that my colleague Brad Avery posted in October when Jeff Hopkin came in as the CEO, and the headline says a lot. It says, new CEO says scaling is the top priority as the brand looks to, quote, go anywhere. So how does that factor into what you wanted to see out of the new label design? Ray, for me, it was how do we come out of this with a package and a product that feels like a billion dollar brand, right? That feels like it could scale violently. That feels like what Lemon Perfect felt like in 2020, 2021, 2022. And then we lost our way a little bit transparently, right?

19:57When we raised our first dollar of capital and every dollar that we raised since, my promise to our investors was that we would do anything and everything to get this thing to a billion-dollar-plus finish, right? To make Lemon Perfect ubiquitous. And I think to do that, you have to start with a package. And when I say package, a bottle and a label, so artwork, that feels like it could go anywhere to Jeff's comment. And I think we've done this. And we could have only done it if from day one it was very personal to Paula and to her team. And you don't get that from agency often, if ever. They had yellow in their blood from minute one.

20:45And there was never a discussion as to when we decided to go and refresh the packaging. There was never a discussion about who we would go to. My dear friend, Jerry Rita, who's the president and chief operating officer at Big Geyser, iconic distributor here in the New York metropolitan area, years ago introduced me to Paula back at the Flood Creative Days. So there was always a seed in my mind that when we refresh the packaging, if ever, that it would be Paula. I don't think any of us would have imagined that it would have been so transformational, what we've done here, right? If you look at our new label versus the old one, the purchase intent is plus 20 points, the refreshment perception plus 25 points.

21:30I thought we had something that was iconic. And only when we saw this for the first time, did I feel like, my goodness, we really have something here. And now this product's been on the shelf for the last three, four weeks. And Lemon Perfect has had the best now two weeks in company history. So it's working. Yeah. It's still very early. I always find that we do a lot with early entrepreneurs, right? And there's always like, my cousin helped me. Yeah. I did whatever. So I think for young entrepreneurs, like at the point when they're ready and really to focus on it, like the design actually works.

22:08Totally. And Ray, you know, I've said this often, taste will always find an audience. But if you don't have the right packaging, you're not going to drive the trial, right, in food and beverage. And so for me, it was how do we create the most commercial packaging that's going to drive the most trial? I often also say, like, people don't like to read. We talk about this all the time. How much can you infer? You're on shelf. Can you infer that you're powerful? Can you infer that you're about lemons? Can you infer that you're delicious? Yeah. Well, there's a fruit on it now, so it looks delicious.

22:41You don't have to say the words. Nobody wants to read. Nobody's reading anything. So whatever you can infer through design, that's why design is so important and so impactful. And it's not only like the label, it's the form that you sit in. I'm talking a lot right now about protein and what that means. Protein waters, protein shakes, everybody wants protein. There are category cues and visual elements that if you have a good design firm will infer more than you say in words. It's such a good point. And I think one that gets overlooked because nowadays everything has some sort of functional component to it.

23:16And we're being told left and right that consumers want functionality as much as they do want refreshment. But that education is expensive in so many different ways. It's cost so much to put all that on a label. It costs so much to educate the consumer to actually say you should be reading this on the label. So simplicity is definitely important. But the elements of simplicity, when I'm looking at this new bottle, original is the name of the flavor. Organic lemon water, zero sugar, USDA organic, the seal, the picture of the lemons. Again, this is the original. And the brand, the brand name. That's all you got.

23:49It's very simple. It's very easy. You don't have to think too, too much about what it is. But people overdo it so much. In my opinion, you get so much information on the front of a package, you just get lost in there. How do you do simplicity in a way that really attracts the consumer, gives them enough information, and makes them want to buy your product? Again, simplicity sounds great and all, but sometimes it can be really hard. Well, that's it. Pick three things to say and then infer other things, right? And don't discount structure. Whether something is in a bottle or a can, is it fizzy or it's not?

24:23Like you can infer a whole bunch of stuff just by the visuals of what you're looking at. Actually, now it's a new day as well because now we have like brands coming online with influencers and everything. So that's a whole nother conversation. But I think now is a very interesting time because you go to the shelf and it's getting more and more complex, right? Like I go to the Mulberry Market right here in Soho and the shelf is intense. there's kombucha there's a non-alk there's non-alk with thc there's fizzy water there's coconut water there's just seltzer there's cold brew right it's like where do you fall in this spectrum of things and how do you stand out there's relaxation drinks like recess it's crazy so it's becoming increasingly hard to stand out i do think right now like giving Lemon Perfect, the brand color of yellow, was really important because there's a whole bunch in the world of Poppy.

25:21Poppy nailed it. Different color, different skew. There's a bunch of rainbows out there in the world. So now we have to swing back a little bit. The fact that you're like, Lemon Perfect is held by their yellow and I own something, I stand for something, is really important on shelf. And you have your little brand block. We have to look at trends that are happening and you have to look at the shelf space. When Yanni was looking at work, it was not just like work on a page. We're looking at it in shelf set and how it stands out. And how you carve out that space. Because I do think that's how you should be making decisions for your brand.

25:51Where are you living? Where do you want to live? Where's the most important place you're living? And how do you stand out in that place? What are you communicating? So yeah, pick three things to say. Infer everything else visually. Pick your place. Pick where you want to stand out. And see if you can stand out visually in that space. We've been talking a lot about the positives. And how this all worked. And why it all worked. I'm sure there was a time during this period of creation. where you might have butted heads or said, hey, you know, we want to change this or here, or maybe your board said to you, Yanni, you know what, I think Paula needs to go in this direction.