She Built A 'Nation' Of Millions In CPG's Toughest Category

24:34It is very exciting and it's a little different for us, but still in line with our values. So our values are always the lowest possible sugar that we can possibly have while still using the cleanest, simplest ingredients. And that's always been this white space in the industry. And it's something that I never got before I got into the industry. And now I know, and it's very, very, it's ridiculously difficult to do from an R &D perspective, but we've got it down to a science now. But it is very, very difficult to create products without natural flavors. They're in 90 plus percent of packaged products in the grocery store.

25:09And for us, it's less about like, ooh, ingredients, bad, good. Like we're not really like calling them out in the same way. It's more about transparency. That's really what it is for me. And I just, I want to know what I'm consuming. I want it, even I consume natural flavors because you have to. There's very difficult to eat or drink anything unless you grow it yourself. So besides BTR, I have to eat other things. I want to know what I'm putting in my product that I'm feeding to millions of people. Yeah. About 10 years ago, I sat down with the founder of Spindrift. Oh, yes. One of the only drinks I can drink.

25:42Yeah. So they had started out as a soda company, evolved into a sparkling water company. They sell soda now, ironically, but one of their tenants for formulation was that they were not going to, this change in 2016, was that they were not going to include natural flavors anymore. And the reason was because every single time they went to a flavor company, they just didn't get a good answer as to where this product or where this came from, or is it actually natural or is it manipulated in any way? So I said, okay, we're just going to use fruit juice and purees and it's more expensive, but I think it enhances the premium feel and nature of who they are.

26:24Yeah. And people are willing to pay for more and people are willing to pay for products that they feel they can trust. Yes. How did you start to build trust among your initial consumers and how did you get them to sing the gospel of BTR Nation? Oh, it's a good question. I know a lot of founders say it happens organically and it's like, and people on the other side of this listening are like, but what does that mean? and I'm going to say the exact same thing. It does happen organically, but here I think is my biggest tip because I want to make sure I'm giving out tangibles. I am in the DMs and I know people are going to listen to this and be like, you can't scale that way.

27:04And I get it. And I know, I know. And I have definitely taken a step back. I'm a marketer and I love marketing. I have people on my team that are in marketing, which is wild to me. But being in the DMs, giving a little bit of time, like I said, 30, 35 minutes a day, even if it's, I mean, I don't own a car, so I have the luxury of like taking public transit or Ubering. So even if it's there, I like to spend time talking to our customers. They will tell you everything that you need to know, and they will tell you why they love you. And then they want to talk to you. You know, I do feel like this very, very minor celebrity, I'm putting that in air quotes, to our customers, not necessarily in the industry, but to our customers, they feel, I mean, I met someone in the aisle last night that was like, oh my goodness, this is, they didn't even know who we were, but I talked to them, stopped them.

27:58I was like, why are you buying that bar? Just curious, love to get all the insights. And they started following us on Instagram and they were like, oh my God, that's you. So if I message you, like, will I talk to you? And I'm like, not all the time, definitely not all the time, but sometimes sure. Like for now, right. As we're really head down building and getting to know our customers. And now we know them. We know what they want. We know what they're looking for. And they sell the product for us. So I see this a lot of demos where someone will come up and be at our demo table. They'll try it.

28:30And they're like, you got to try this, right? So it's either because of taste, because of story, or because of product attributes. And we have all three. And that's really good. That's great for us. Yay. But when you're looking to build that community, you have to, or you or someone from your team, right? Someone has to be there that has a face. It really goes back to the face. If we're looking at, you know, there's so many creators that are making products and not all of them are going to be successful, but there are some that are really successful. And I think a lot of times as founders, we say like, oh, it's because they're a celebrity.

29:04And sometimes it is, but sometimes they're really out there hustling. They built that community. sometimes 10 years on YouTube or Instagram, like they earned those followers because they spoke about themselves. They built this brand around themselves and now they have a product. And how do founders that don't have that compete? We do it, right? So it's like Gary Vee had this amazing Instagram reel yesterday that I saw. And it was like, people want people who are vulnerable. People want people who are people. There's so much right now in the world. The world is such a heavy place. And it's because people feel like there's a lot of frauds out there.

29:44So the way not to combat that is to show who you are and just to be authentically you. And that is, it seems like so basic, but it can literally start from like propping up your phone or taking a selfie and posting that and being like, let me do a reintroduction of who I am and why I started this brand. And I can guarantee that that post is going to get way more likes and comments and shares than a post of a recipe that someone made. And it gets better over time. I mean, the first time you do it, as you talked about before, it may not be perfect, but it's a starting point. And eventually you'll get better and better and better at it.

30:19Now, when you were talking, I was thinking of a brand that is famous for their founder forward approach to social media, that's Midday Squares. And they just very much built that brand as a reality, almost TV show brand. And people know them. They feel connected to them. And that's important. It's critical. They're people. And I don't think you need to necessarily go as far as they have gone in showing everything, you know, being all transparent behind the scenes about what they do. But you do need to create a bond with your customers, with your consumers. And I think DMing is one surefire way to get connected to people in a really tangible way.

31:00Yeah. And quick and easy. It's like, oh, your dog is so cute. I use that as an example because we're people, right? When we're consuming content, why are we scrolling? I see this. I like to observe when I fly a lot. Everyone is just scrolling past things, but they're consuming the contents before they scroll past it. So for us, even if they're creators we're not working with, or we definitely can't sponsor because we don't have the budget for them, I'm still like cheering them on, right? It's because maybe they'll see a message and that message like becomes something else. And then they're like, oh, wait, I spoke to the founder of that brand and they pick up the product in Whole Foods and they try it and then they share it organically.

31:35And then we have a thousand sales, right? It really does work like that. Do you feel like the DMs and the work you do online really enhances your digital presence in e-commerce as much as it does brick and mortar or does it affect one more than the other? That's a good question. And as we expand nationally and roll out more, I know it definitely impacts retail. I mean, our Whole Foods launch has been incredible. And the first 24, 48 hours was wild. And it's still every day. It's amazing to see on Instagram and TikTok, specifically hundreds of people messaging us through either DMs, commenting.

32:13And this is daily, which is really, really exciting. And it's because either they've heard of the brand and we're not necessarily in their area yet. And they're just so excited to go and support. Or they're new to the brand. They're like, oh my goodness, this product is blowing my mind. How did I not know about this? So it's a flywheel. So what we see in store, people are like, oh my goodness, let me come online on our website, Amazon Thrive and buy more products because now I'm obsessed with this product. And because we're building this product portfolio, we're not just one product. And it gives us an opportunity to, okay, people who love the bars, now they're running into Whole Foods to buy all the product and sell out the shelves, which is, it's a nice flywheel and it's working all together.

32:53The more that we grow, we are going to be doing like certain exclusives, right? We'll do certain exclusives for online, certain exclusives for retail. And that's operationally very heavy, but also really fun. And it gives consumers want the new bright and shiny stuff. So it keeps people on their feet. And it's, in my opinion, I think maybe 20 years ago, you could have this like hero product and you could ride with it, right? Like Heinz ketchup is a great example. That's not 20 years ago, but centuries ago, you could do this. And now it's a little different. I feel like people want new drops. They want things that are exciting and it's, we see it in brick and mortar.

33:29We see it with like the crumble philosophy, right? And it's, that's, these new drops are exciting and it keeps people buying your existing product, but also trying something new. It increases average order value. It gives you new retailers. So for us, that is a model that we are really excited about. And that is how we're building our business. As we launch a new product line, we're pretty much thinking we're sticking to three verticals. And we've been working on this vertical for like 13 months. So it's no natural flavors. It takes a really long time, but we got it and we're so excited. Well, good news.

34:00This episode is going to drop right before or right as soon as the expo launches. So, you know, I hope N1261, come and try it. N61? N1261. N1261 in the North Hall. Well, North Hall is always the the crazy haul, especially when the show gets started. Do you want more repeat buyers on Amazon? Well, this free resource in collaboration with Straight Up Growth will help your brand turn first-time buyers into long-term subscribers. Download Winning the Repeat Purchase Game on Amazon now at tasteradio.com slash sug. That's tasteradio.com slash s-u-g to start building retention-driven growth for your brand on Amazon.

34:43If you're developing a cannabis beverage, formulation choices matter, especially early on. Source Technology's free guide shares practical insights on stability, dosing, and scale-ready development. Download the ins and outs of creating a cannabis beverage today at tasteradio.com slash cannabis. Paid ads is something that can be a really scary and complex process for a lot of entrepreneurs. And you penned something on LinkedIn that I thought was brilliant. Thank you. Got a lot of good engagement talking about the power of meta ads. And now, you know, people have their own opinions about Facebook and Instagram and meta as the company overall, but it can be a very powerful way to reach new consumers.

35:31Talk about what you've learned about your meta strategy over the past year. Oh, we've learned a lot and a couple of things. So the first thing is if you're scared to try it, the algorithm will know. So - How do you mean? You don't necessarily have to put a lot of budget towards something, but you have to go in on creative. And that once again, doesn't necessarily mean that you need to invest in a super expensive agency to create all of your assets. I mean, our best performing meta ad in 2025, which drove hundreds of thousands of dollars of sales, one ad, and I designed it in Canva in five minutes.

36:07What was the content of that ad? It was about ingredients, right? Because it was super controversial because everyone has something to share and ton of positive feedback, but we also can get negative feedback and that's good too. So a lot of times people will, a big one is when people make fun of my voice. So hopefully no one's thinking, I know. I think my voice is pretty like natural. People are so mean. It's good though. It's good. So, and I also, so sidebar, I see a business coach slash therapist once, twice a month to process all of this, right? Because it's not easy. Like it definitely, like in the moment when when I see something where it's like, oh, this lady's voice is so annoying, or, oh, you know, your hair is so bad.

36:43That's another one, my hair. I have no idea why. Go get a haircut. Because the internet is full of trolls. They are, they are, but those trolls are good. They're good for engagement. So sometimes I'll take that comment and then we'll be nice about it. And I'll be like, okay, well, you have a nice day too. Right? Like our brand is not super sassy. Like we have to stay aligned with our voice. I'm not really sassy. Like I'm not really good at comebacks, right? So I'm just gonna say like, be as nice as I can and be like, you know, that's really mean, but thanks for stopping by. You could have just kept scrolling.

37:12Something that simple. But we have people that come to our defense. Like this is a woman owned brand and like she lost her parents. And how could you, and like people come to our defense and that helps with engagement as well. So this particular ad though, that didn't have anything to do with my hair or my voice, but it was controversial because it said, because every ingredient matters and we listed what was not in the product. And very different than sometimes when people are like, okay, here's what's in the product, right? This is what's not in it. and obviously people loved it, excited about it, but it also sparked conversation, right?

37:42It's like, no soy. Oh, why don't you use soy? Or no natural flavors, big one, right? That is, we actually have an ad running right now that's really about like, what are natural flavors? And people in the comments are like, what are natural flavors? Like, I always feel like it's interesting that I see them and I don't really like know how to avoid them, but like, I wanna know more. And people want that and they want that conversation and that helps engagement in meta. so that overall anything that can spark some conversation is really helpful. So for us, we don't have a lot of unboxing videos.

38:14Sometimes they work and they might work very well for brands. We've tested it. It's not for us, right? I don't get it. I don't, as a consumer who buys a lot of products and loves this industry so much, I would not be influenced to buy something when it's like, okay, here's the product I got in the mail and here's a bite of it. And oh my goodness, look at the texture, right? And I get it. And that might really get some people, but for us, that doesn't work for us. So for us, it's either a very simple, static, like one, two, three message points about what makes us different or like a full video, right?

38:45Video content that's B-roll, usually it's voiceover. But I mean, we sell a bar almost every seven seconds on our, I should do a LinkedIn post about this, on our website alone. This doesn't include other e-commerce channels. So it's working. It's working. And of course, you know, we started spending like$1 ,000, right? And now it's a lot more than that. Okay. When you think about return on investment, what's your strategy? How do you gauge whether a particular spend is worth that investment? So Meta actually is really good at attribution. So you can actually see your ROI on every single ad. And the thing that's really important that I want to stress is don't get too attached to the creative and like constantly be creating.

39:34And we see, you know, we see this from major e-commerce brands. So I like to take a look at all of the brands that are crushing it in retail, all of the brands that are crushing it at e-commerce and be like, this is amazing. We're a hybrid. And I want to take the best in class strategies and the best in class strategy from, you know, top tier e-commerce brands. like you take a look at Groom's, they are testing constantly, constant creative, right? And even if your budget cannot match, because our budget can't match a Groom's budget, that's okay, right? Because we can still identify the strategies that are working, right?

40:07Which is a lot of creative. And when creative isn't working, even if it's like, oh, I really thought this would work. I see this a lot. I thought this would work. It's so perfect. It's aligned with the brand. It's beautiful. Like it's a beautiful image, right? It's professional photography. It should work. Kill it, right? It's got to go. When you say, does it work? Are you just talking about in terms of engagement? Is it generating sales? Generating sales, okay. It's important, definitely. But because if it's not getting reach, but Meta knows, right? If it's not getting reach, also kill it. That is how we've been advised as well.

40:35So if it's not getting the reach, it's probably not going to get the sales because there's not enough eyeballs on it. But you can actually see the ROI that you're generating in Meta's platform. So you can also create unique discount codes if you're directing to your own Shopify site. It's totally different when you're generating revenue and pushing people into store. And we actually do have, and we invest heavily in store campaigns because it really works. So with our nationwide launch in Whole Foods, we're directing people in store. We're running all of these awesome ads in Whole Foods. It's really exciting.

41:07This is how people are also finding the brand. And then that's where the attribution, it's a little tough to see. And that's why we're constantly, constantly reviewing our data. I mean, if I could on an hour by hour basis, I would, but on a daily basis to see where are we geo-targeting, which region is performing even better than the others, which ads in which regions, right? It's so granular. And as a small team, it is very, very difficult. So yes, I do work like a hundred hours a week, but at the same time, we've grown our team too, right? To help with this. So it's, you gotta be in the data constantly.

41:41How much of the data that you're able to pull from Whole Foods is applicable to say a Costco? So every channel strategy, even within retail is so different. But when you have a customer and you're seeing those velocities, you can take that data story and we do, right? We take our data stories and we're bringing it into every retailer pitch. So we take our e-commerce data and we bring it into retailer pitches. So we can say, hey, you have all of these stores in these zip codes. Look at how many sales that we're generating monthly. Look at all the subscribers that are in those zip codes, you want us.

42:19And it is a much easier data story to tell because data is so important and so valuable. It's everything. And you also want to make sure for us, we're BTR nation, but we launched as BTR bar. You want to make sure that you're coded correctly. So for the first time we bought data and that's important as well too, because now not only do you have your own data, which is critical. We always have our own data. We know how we're doing. It's great. you have competitive data. And that is the most exciting thing to see. So especially when your velocities are crazy high, because now you have this data story where it's like, oh my goodness, look at our last 52 weeks, look at our last 16 weeks.

42:54It changes the game. And data, yes, it is expensive. It's something that you have to justify. It's something that you have to make sense for your company. But when the time comes, nothing tells the story better than data. I love when analytical data is available to brands because it can tell a big part of that sales story. It can tell you where you're performing best. Perhaps it can even tell you where you might be best merchandised in store. Yes. But it might not tell you about how people feel about the brand. The anecdotal data is so critical, especially when it comes to your packaging. Your packaging, everyone says this, this is your billboard, right?

43:35This is like, this is your first sort of entry point for a consumer. So when they see your dark chocolate almond butter hearts, which are amazing, by the way. Thank you. For me, this is your Valentine's packaging. But for me, I see the chocolate. I see the texture of the chocolate inside. Two grams of sugar really speaks to me. There's something about it that says, hey, pick me up. That's good. That's what we wanted to say. Yeah. Hey, pick me up. We're in a comfort zone here. Like we're in a safe space where you don't have to feel like you're being intimidated by whatever's in here. Exactly. That's exactly what we're going for.

44:08Yeah. And when you started out, I remember asking you in Elevator, talking about where'd you get your packaging from? Like who designed this? Because this is brilliant. And it seems like everything that you've done since has been built from that initial package design and that whole feel. So talk about your branding and talk about the kind of feel that you're trying to. I mean, it sounds like I'm experiencing what you intend. Yes. Yes. It's good. it's good. So we want it to be approachable and accessible. So packaging is so, so critical. And we are always iterating. We're always tinkering, especially as retailers also share a lot of feedback too, where, you know, we're in our fiber era, right?

44:44We're, oh, I don't know if the protein error will ever end. And it's, I mean, I love protein, right? Like we make protein bars. I get it. It's going to dampen. I feel like everything is over proteinified at this point. There's protein, there'll be protein in the chair you're sitting in before, before it's all said and done. Someone's going to want to eat it then. It's pretty wild. It's pretty wild. And we definitely we're seeing obviously an influx of excited new people that are like, oh my God, protein and it's clean. Like people do love that. So we're definitely benefiting, but we had our core, we are not a protein only brand.

45:18We make protein bars that are the cleanest bars. That's what we're going for. And this is a change too. So from our original packaging, We have now, because we make our high protein line called Protein Plus, we needed to differentiate our, which we always called them superfood bars, but we needed to differentiate it even more. So superfood became the hierarchy. If you remember, we used to have energy, recharge, bliss, vitality, rest in peace. I love them online. People love them. In theory, people love them. You have 0.5 seconds in a grocery store to get people's attention. And people are like, oh, this is because they're superfoods, right?

45:53And over and over and over again, we demoed. And I have personally done over 100 demos. I was like, yeah, it is because there's superfoods in them. And it was just so clear to me and so easy. The other thing we wanted to point out to people that was not in our first iteration of our packaging is that we're a nut butter bar. There are not many nut butter bars in the market. They're either, you can only make a bar in basically three ways. Dates, nuts, or lots of artificial junk, right? There's really only three ways to do it. And it's really - What's Nougat? I've always accepted nougat. You know, like in Snickers bar, they say, you know, this chewy nougat.

46:27What is that? I was waiting for you to say nougat. Something with a lot of gluten. Maybe it's nut-based? I don't know. It's not. It's probably gluten-based or just like, yeah. Yeah, it's probably gluten-based. Yeah. It's probably like the cookie piece of it. Yeah. But being a nut butter brand, yes, absolutely. That also speaks to me. It's very clear and nuts are healthy fats, but there's not a lot of nut butter bars in the market, right? It's us and Perfect Bar. And I love Perfect Bar because it's, I mean, clean ingredients, simple ingredients, right? Like that's what we're trying to go for. But I knew from the image, the visualization of the packaging that came to me, right?

46:59So I tinker a lot and I still actually like mock up packaging for our brand new line launching at Expo West, debuting at Expo West. I'm sorry, launching a little later, end of March, April. I tinker. I actually mock it up. I draw it. And then we work with a designer, same designer since we started the brand called Riser. I'm going to shout them out. I love them. and we consistently get the same questions from founders that are like, oh, but packaging is expensive and design is expensive. And I get it. I get it. It's not cheap. But we do, I try to do all of the legwork as much as possible. And then Riser has been amazing.

47:34And they're a duo. There's two of them and they're just wonderful. And they take everything that's in my brain, everything that's on paper, and they make it look like this. But all of the color schemes, that is me. So that's like, just comes to me in my brain. and based on what we want you to feel when you're eating the products. That's really what I go back to. And actually I love packaging design, but I definitely need to be in like a creative headspace to get it done. And I do a lot on planes because I travel so much and it's great. It's a great way to like get stuff done. And there I am with like a sketch pad and people next to me are like, what are you doing?

48:07But I've actually also met some CPG founders sitting next to me on a plane. So it's, yeah, make friends that way. Can I talk about innovation for a sec? because you've alluded to the new product line a number of times now. I was actually a little surprised. This was a fancy food show. I think it was two years ago in New York City when you introduced your chocolates. And I love them. I remember you're like, hey, wait, try these. And I'm like, oh my God, these are incredible. A lot of bar brands that I know, that's all they do. They just stick to bars. What gave you confidence that you had the permission to go into different product categories?

48:37I do ask myself this every day, especially because we take some leaps, right? And obviously our chocolates going nationwide, right? Now we're launching a new line. We are very, very hyper-focused. And we also, we know the split of revenue, bars, chocolate. We're constantly looking at it. We're a portfolio brand, right? Like the whole, we're a better snacking portfolio and platform. So when I take a look at icons like Simple Mills and Siete that are better snacking platforms, Like that's who we aspire to be with our specific value prop with as little sugar as possible, no added sugar, no refined sugar, and the cleanest, simplest ingredients.

49:19So we're not going to stray from that ever. Chocolate for me was very scary because chocolate is so operationally heavy to make. I know a lot of brands that share about this all the time. We had a really, really rough cocoa market, much, much better now. But in 2024, it was a terrible cocoa market. my mom's favorite candy was peanut butter cup. It really comes back to thinking about my childhood, things that I ate in my childhood and how I want to make them better. And if other brands are already doing them. So like I have a ton of friends in the industry and if other brands are doing them really well, we're not going to make it.

49:55I don't want to say never say never, but like there's no need. It's there. I consume that product. I love that brand. We want to do things that people aren't doing because that's how you become a timeless brand and you stand the test of time. So that's what we want. We don't want to make exactly what already exists on the shelf and slap a new label on it because then it's just a battle of who has more money. And that's fine too. But for us, that is not where I'm coming from with the brand. So for us, chocolate was definitely scary. It paid off. So it was definitely a big risk. But because we make our own chocolate from scratch, we don't use off-the-shelf chocolate, which is its own whole thing.

50:29We make our own fillings from scratch, right? These are, it's an operationally complex product, but that is what gives it the depth, the boldness. That's why when people say, oh my goodness, I've never tasted anything like this besides like a very premium upscale chocolate that also has a ton of sugar, that's what we're going for. Like we wanna be that premium, I'm indulging, but for a much more cost-effective, much more relatable, approachable, we don't sit in the premium chocolate set, we want to sit next to the Lilies, the Unreels of the world because that's the type of product we're trying to commercialize this really cool indulgent experience.

51:04and scale it up massively, which we have done. Knock on wood, very exciting moment, but it's scary. And if you want to serve people better food, they have to be able to afford it. I think so that's a really good point. So when you start out, do you start out thinking about price as much as you are in ingredients and formulation? So it's a good question. I'm super transparent. We do, we're always thinking about price and we know, especially in retail, we need to be competitive. Otherwise, it's just, it's got to move. And people are super price sensitive, especially in retail, where you can easily compare a price very different than an online price where people are looking at shipping.

51:40Is it an all included cost, right? So for us, our chocolates online are much more expensive because we offer free shipping. And it is a strategy that we do. And our conversion rates are literally like 100 % higher than the industry average because we offer free shipping. And I imagine your costs are a little bit lower because you control warehousing and logistics and fulfillment. Exactly, exactly. Exactly. But the price is more expensive than, I don't say much more, but definitely more expensive than what you would see it on shelf. But for us, this is great because when people are walking into a store, they're going to buy it automatically from the store.

52:11That's obviously amazing for velocity. So price, we are always thinking about it, but we think about ingredients first, ingredients and taste first. And then we sometimes take a leap and are like, okay, well, we got to get this to making, you know, 3 million units. Cool. This is where we're going to be making 3 million units. Let's go. I mentioned at the top of the show, I'm supremely honored. I really am. This is my favorite story to tell. It's my favorite conversation to have. Thank you. Someone who I met when they were, yes, brand new. Yeah. Didn't even have product. Didn't even have product.

52:42And now here you are. And so I feel like if we can be a tiny, tiny part of that story, it just makes me really happy. And I hope we can continue to be a part of that story as you continue to grow. I'm honored. I mean, I could talk for at least another hour with you, Ray. But I will spare the listeners. I'm just so honored to be here and so grateful for everything that you do for this industry. I would love to talk to you for another hour, but your phone in the corner has been blowing up. I'm worried actually now because I'm thinking, oh my gosh, Ashley has a lot to do and I'm taking up all her time during the day.

53:13But no, in all seriousness, thank you so much. Thank you, Ray. Thanks for making the trip. And I'm thrilled to share this conversation with our audience. I'm so excited. Thank you so much. Thank you.

53:25That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNet.com Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cratchy. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt. And our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smirlinski. And our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. and of course we would love it if you could review us on the apple podcast app or your listening platform of choice check us out on instagram our handle is bevnet taste radio as always for questions comments ideas for future podcasts please send us an email to ask at taste radio.com on behalf of the entire taste radio team thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next time

54:22Ashley Nickelsen:Thank you.