Simon Ford Built – And Sold – His Brand By Following A Simple Rule

0:10Hey folks, I'm Ray Latif and you're listening to the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage, taste radio. This episode features an interview with Simon Ford, the co-founder of Ford's Gin, a revered spirit brand served in the world's most admired cocktail bars and restaurants. During my conversation with Simon Ford, he recited an adage that could be inscribed in the walls of any successful company. People don't do business with brands. They do business with people. Simon, who co-founded Ford's Gin in 2012, is keenly aware of the power of relationships. They've served him well throughout a 20-plus year career that includes experience in wine retail, bartending, spirits marketing, and of course, entrepreneurship.

1:02Alongside Ford's Gin co-founder and master distiller Charles Maxwell, Simon tapped his extensive connections in the hospitality industry to develop the 86 Company, a portfolio of high-quality and versatile spirits that could set a standard for modern bars and mixologists. Ford's Gin emerged as the definitive brand within that cohort and was key to beverage alcohol giant Brown Foreman's acquisition of the 86 Company in 2019. In the following interview, I spoke with Simon about his diverse background in spirits and hospitality, what he means when he says that he, quote, never pitches business, the reasons behind successful and unsuccessful relationships, his belief that naivete is a gift, and how he cultivated a strategic partnership with Brown Foreman.

1:54Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now, I'm supremely honored to be sitting down with Simon Ford, the founder of Ford's Gin. Simon, great to see you. Hello, Ray. How's it going? It's going. It's nice. We're in front of a bar slash distillery bar called Standard Wormwood here in Brooklyn. More specifically, the industry city neighborhood of Brooklyn. It's super cool. Why are we here? Why are we here? We are here for the podcast, obviously. I'm here for the podcast. Everyone is here for BCB. Bar Convent, Brooklyn. Yeah, which is amazing. You know, bringing people together. Actually, I think this feels like the busiest it's ever been.

2:29And I think I'm seeing more friendly faces at this one than I've ever done in the past. So it feels good. The vibe's good. Simon Ford is Mick Jagger. He's the Mick Jagger of BCB. Everyone, I've been here for five minutes. Four to five, maybe eight people have come and hugged you, kissed you, just like kneels. When you said Mick Jagger, I thought you meant I'm old, but I still have a bit of energy. No, not at all. The one thing about BCB that I've never understood, why don't they call it Bar Convention, Brooklyn? Why is it Bar Convent? I don't know that. I mean, obviously, the first one was Berlin.

3:01I wonder if it has something to do with the German language, but I couldn't speak to that. The convent stands for convention, no? Yeah. I mean, I've always assumed it was an abbreviation, yeah. Okay, okay. Where are you based? Me, at the moment, I am based between Nashville and London. Okay, that's quite odd. And it's not because I like country music. It's got nothing to do with it. Why are you in between? Well, London makes sense. Nashville, why? London is where the gin is made. And Nashville is sort of close to the mothership of Brown Foreman. Oh, okay. That makes sense. And you are still with, in so many ways, Brown Foreman.

3:39Yeah. So Brown Foreman purchased Forged Gin back in 2019 and brought me on as the managing director of the brand. I oversee the marketing and everything. You have a long history in this industry. wine spirits bar that was just last night but I think you came into your own and correct me if I'm wrong as the founder and owner of a coxhill bar in Brighton wow that's going back some years but it is going back some years yeah yeah I would say that that was certainly my first foray into bartending you know I'd worked in the industry a little bit prior and had met some of the best bartenders in the world.

4:22People like Dick Bradsell, Douglas Ankara, people that had really sort of set the London bartending scene on fire. And they really inspired me. And I lost the job. How'd you lose the job? Well, just the company I was working for went bankrupt and everyone was made redundant. And I was like, this is my opportunity to bartend. And that's exactly what I did. And so Brighton was where I went. There was a guy called Jake Kempston who was wanting to start a bar. He'd come to me and we opened up this Michael Cobra together. But not many people know that. The word Brighton to me represents one thing in particular.

4:57Can you guess what that represents? Brighton Rock. No. Quadrophenia. The Gulls. The Brighton Gulls of the Premier League. Okay. Oh, we're going straight in. They do well these days. They're not a bad team. Yeah. And so the first of my 10 questions that I wanted to ask you is, are you a Brighton Gulls fan? I am not. What's your team? The Brighton goals would be my second team if I, because living there, I would go to see some of the games. It was nice. But back then, they were a second division team, you know, so a long time ago. Before you answer your first, because I was hoping it was Brighton.

5:29If you say Chelsea, we're just going to hang up the phone here. We're done. So please don't say Chelsea. Well, my dad is from Birmingham. Well done. My grandparents had a pub outside a football team stadium. and so I have inherited the team Aston Villa and I'm particularly proud of them the last couple of years actually. You know, for a team that was relegated three, four years ago, was it four years ago? They are just phenomenal. I mean, they are doing some amazing things under Unai. Unai Emery, who's the manager of the team. When I was a kid, it was actually, they were a very successful team and so it was kind of easy to become a fan and then of course, unfortunately, there's this thing called loyalty.

6:12my grandmother and grandfather had a pub okay where the gangsters and the police chiefs and everybody would go and drink it was right outside the grounds and she gave me my first cocktail books wow and one of them was from 1899 and one of them was from the 1950s i had to take it to dave wandridge actually and because i couldn't find a date on the older one until he pointed out that there was roman numerals at the very front and that was the day and i felt very very silly. But he's like, this is a very rare book. And my grandmother would make cocktails in an upstairs lounge and downstairs where they were pulling pints for the majority of people.

6:48But that's what she was doing. Amazing. It was your grandmother who introduced you to cocktails. Yeah. Well, actually, it wasn't that way around. The minute I got a job in the bar, she went and gave me those books. She said, you're going to need these. I've been hanging on to them. Never knew I would find a home for them. And she said, you know, take these books. Amazing. It sounds like your grandmother was an important person in your life. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. You know, gin is a big part of your life as well. It has been for a long time. When was the first time you had a sip of gin?

7:19Actually, it was of legal drinking age, interestingly enough. Is that 18 in the UK? Yeah. Okay. So my first, I mean, everyone starts drinking cider where I'm from. I'm from the West Country in England. So I grew up in a town called Bath. and that whole area is where all the apples are the orchards there's brandies it's where wassail comes from and it's home of english cider so i would grow up drinking cider but then i would get my first job in a wine shop at the age of 19 and i kind of like my palate started to become more and more sophisticated in that moment and i started drinking wine and i moved on to drinking for some reason guinness and gin and tonics if i wasn't drinking wine and that was it and i remember even then, noticing the difference between the different gins in a gin and tonic, I'd be like, oh, that wasn't the same gin as the first gin I just had.

8:10And I would notice it. And so it piqued my interest from very early days, but it's always been one of my favorite drinks. I don't think you could go wrong with Guinness or gin and tonic. Well, yeah, the latter, I think might be a problem. And you know what, that's a good point, because I know a lot of people who are still steering clear of gin. There are people who just like, I won't touch gin. They had a bad experience in one way or the other, and it's just not for me. For someone who founded a gin company, how do you convince someone to try gin? I would come across that a lot, especially about 20 years ago.

8:44And of course, the journey there is so delightful. I would say that I'm not the only one on it. I met countless bartenders that when someone says they don't like gin, see this as this amazing moment to be challenged and go, oh, you don't like gin? I'll change your mind, right? And so for me, obviously, I spent 10 years trying to convince people through education, through cocktail experimentation, through showing people different ways to drink it or just showing them a good gin and tonic versus a bad gin and tonic. right? Obviously Ford's Gin was launched in 2012 and I think I learned a lot from that moment.

9:19I wanted to make the juniper quite delicate and have a supporting cast of botanicals that really sort of highlighted that juniper but also created balance so that people would just enjoy gin and it was, I learned from the tequila guys. I remember tequila was the thing I couldn't drink. Yeah. And it was all these mixtos that weren't so good when I was young and I was doing shots And then someone introduced me to 100 % agave. And I was like, oh, tequila is good. And I feel like that's what I get to do often with Fords, you know. I get to show people that don't think gin is good that it's good just through a blind, neat taste test.

9:56Is there a point at which, you know, you just kind of walk away and say, I can't convince this person. It's not worth my time? I mean, I'm never on any forceful mission at all to make anyone drink something that they don't want to drink. The way I kind of approach it is we're on a journey to encourage people to try new ways to drink, to come on an adventure. Even in the gin category, we say there's life beyond the gin and tonic. Try something new with us, right? If you love a martini, then we might try and convince you to drink a Negroni. If you love a Negroni, we might try and convince you to drink a Southside.

10:30We just like the idea of maybe broadening someone's horizons with something because it's the hospitality from within. it's the bartender from within. And so I think that if you gave it a try, that's the best I could ask. You know, what's quite interesting is we do a program called Oysters and Martinis. And martinis is quite a particular drink. It's strong. If you've never had a martini before, that's going to take you by surprise. You know, it's got a lot of complex flavors. Gin in itself is made up of all these botanicals. The vermouth is not necessarily the easiest of flavors. You add bitters let's add some bitter on top of all of these complex flavors and then let's give it to someone a very high proof albeit nicely chilled with a little bit of dilution some expression of lemon oils on it but try that for the very first time and it's an acquired taste sometimes an oyster is an acquired taste and we give this our people come up and sometimes somebody who's never had a martini or an oyster is brave enough to come up and have an oyster and martini with us and I love that and sometimes they go yuck I'm never having oysters again martini it's a bit strong can you suggest something else we always have a backup drink just in case it is a bit too strong or and they want something else but we like to challenge people to try something that maybe they won't like but they will always remember that moment they will remember their first martini with Fortygin love it or hate it they will remember it and I like that we put ourselves in a position to take that risk with the consumer rather than just go for a crowd pleaser every time.

12:05Yeah. Memories are created using senses. Yep. Taste, smell, what have you. I think memories are also created when a great story is presented. And when you are at a tasting or, you know, experiencing something for the first time, the person who is in front of you has a big role in getting someone to appreciate what they're drinking and eating. Yeah. And I think about that when I visited a lot of really nice restaurants, Noma in particular, Noma during forest and game season, there were a lot of things that I would never in my whole life ever thought I would eat, nor probably would eat since. I'm talking about like, you know, duck brain and reindeer heart and things like that.

12:44Reindeer penis, I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that was on the menu. It probably was at one point. So I appreciated the story. So when one of the chefs would come over and explain the dish and talk about why they created what they created and the ingredients that they used. I appreciate it a little bit more. You yourself, you've been telling stories and talking to people for a long time and you're good at it. What makes you a great communicator? I mean, I think storytelling is at the heart of all good brands. If you don't have a good story to begin with, you know, it's going to be a tough road.

13:19If you create something new, there should be a really good reason why you choose to exist. Can I pause you there for a second? Everyone will say they have a good story. public relations teams will say, this brand has a great story. This founder has a great story. What really makes for a great story? Sorry for the interruption there. So I think a great story starts with, well, there's two approaches I'm going to sort of touch on. One is if you have an amazing history already, and it could be a history that you were able to borrow from or tap into, or it could be a true value of the branding. Your brand could actually come from that place and that time.

13:57You know, there are brands that have been around for hundreds of years. And of course, they've got multiple stories that they can tap into and tell over and over again. And repetition helps, right? That's where memory structures are built. But if you are creating a new brand, then you don't have that history. So you can tap into someone else's history or a category's history. Some people have reinvigorated or reinvented categories that had gone away. But if you're doing something like gin, which is, then why are you doing this when there's such good choice out there already? And I think that's the beginning of a good story is the reason why you were doing something.

14:32For Ford's, the reason why we did it is because we wanted to create something versatile and mixable for the cocktail bartender. And how did we go about that? We talked to hundreds of bartenders for their advice, not just at the beginning when we were formulating ideas, but when we were developing the recipe. we looked at botanicals that would mix very well in the classic cocktails and flavor pair like a good chef would pair flavors and so all of these things build into a reason why we did something and i'm a big fan of the marketing guru simon sinek who sort of says you know start with why you're doing something first that's where the sort of emotions are built on a story you know if you think about gin well it's an alcoholic spirit made of botanicals every gin has botanicals every gin has juniper.

15:21Every gin probably has a master distiller and every gin probably has a nice cute little still and a method in which they make it. So we're all trying to make the best quality product. So the next part of the story is why did you make the gin that you made? And what were you trying to achieve when you did it? And that's where the sort of stories are formed. But you know, you get lucky sometimes. The guy that makes Ford's gin is an 11th generation master distiller. And I I get to borrow some of his history when telling the story of Ford's. You know, we managed to buy, you know, botanicals from a company that had been around for 150 years.

15:54You know, and we get to borrow a bit of their story. The still that every drop of Ford's gin is made in was the last still made by the legendary gin still making company, John Doar. And so, you know, there's things that are fun. And I would say that someone who's nerdy like me would be like, oh, that's cool. But then there's a lot of people out there that couldn't care less. but I think that people would care that we made this so that your cocktail experience at home and your cocktail experience as a bartender would be improved. You mentioned a relationship with Charles Maxwell. I think back to my college days and I had a class called business marketing.

16:31The first word out of the professor's mouth was relationships. The last word. The last class out of his mouth was relationships. You've had a lot of relationships in your time in this industry. What makes for a successful relationship? What makes for an unsuccessful relationship? So we would have this saying that is, you know, people don't do business with brands. They do business with people. And so we've always put the relationship first. Second, And Forge was built out, Forge Gym was built out of the hospitality industry. We see ourselves as an extension of it. So we are trying to act like someone might look after us when we go into their restaurant or bar.

17:15We want to look after them as a customer of ours, right? So that's how we sort of approach our ethos. We just want to be an extension of the hospitality industry. But I think the most important is everyone that we do business with could do business with anyone else. What's important is their business and understanding their business and actually approaching them and their business with what can benefit them and us, right? It's, you know, if we go in with our own agenda, that's pointless. If we go in with an agenda that could benefit both parties, that's probably ideal. If we can come in with an agenda that benefits them, then they're a customer.

17:55So I think it's always good in a relationship with your customer to find out their needs and see if you can accommodate, help, assist in any way, shape or form. And maybe you can't. And that's OK, too. You know, but I think that's what a relationship is about. Thank you very much for that. This is a reoccurring theme on the podcast is when you are approaching a retailer, when you're approaching your customer. the question should always be, what can I do for you? What can I do to benefit your brand, to bring incremental benefit revenue, what have you to your company? Because they don't need you in most cases.

18:31And to this day, I mean, I even had an example from a bartender I was talking to yesterday. To this day, there are still people that go in with their own agenda and they say, hey, can you change that drink to my product? Hey, you know, like I need to hit my number on this product this month? Can you buy this one? Not the one that you want, the one that I want you to buy. And it just constantly happens. And I think the advantage that the team I work with is we've never taken that approach. We've always been customer focused, customer centric, and they're our friends and we want to look after them.

19:05Now, I think that's true across CPG. I think in particular hospitality, when it comes to the spirits industry, a lot of people who are buyers are headstrong. A lot of people who are Our decision makers are headstrong. So if you come in as an aggressive person who's trying to sell, I think it's probably not going to work out very well for you. Yeah. You should never pitch business. You should just tell your story. That's it, you know, and see if it resonates. I like it. Part of your story that I heard, we're going to say this is question five in this technical questions here, is that you're a big martini guy.

19:36I'm a big Negroni guy. In our company, at BevNet, we're big Negroni folks. But brass tacks, martini or Negroni? That is like the meanest question one could ask anybody. I'm so sorry, Simon. Do you know what? Whatever the answer is, it's wrong. I don't think you can offend anyone in our audience, so don't worry about that. I mean, you're right now talking about probably my two favorite drinks, and I have to pick one. I would say this is a politician's answer. A Negroni is probably the one I would order most. a martini relies on the skill of the bartender more now they both do but i want my martini to come from a tried true and trusted bartender it's easy to mess up a martini i find and it's less it's more difficult to mess up a negroni from my palate so i think i would pick a negroni for the drink i would order the most but i think if i had a desert island drink i would probably if he picked the martini and have to pick the bartender that would make it?

20:40I don't think that's a politician's... I think that's a fantastic answer. And I wouldn't even thought to answer it that way. So thank you. You know, it's so funny you answer it that way because I was at the bar at the Chelsea Hotel a year ago. And it's a very sophisticated, very expensive bar. And I sat down in a bar seat and looking at the menu and I see this martini. and it's like$32,$33. I'm like, what is in here that's worth$32,$33? Screw it. I order it. Man, if that wasn't the best martini I've ever had in my whole life, it was fantastic. I was going to say, do you know what was in that martini?

21:20High rent prices. You know, when I first came across Forest Gin, it was in 2012. And I had started at BevNet in 2011. Well, that was the year it was launched. So you're an early adopter. Yeah. Well, when I saw the product, when I saw the press release and I saw the bottles, I was like, wow, this is different. And this is part of the 86 company. Yeah, that's right. We had more. Many different products. But the Forge Gin, the bottle that came in. Actually, I think your rum came in a similar looking bottle as well. They all came in the same bottle. Oh, did they? Okay. Yeah, yeah. There was a streamlining for a bunch of reasons.

21:54You know, one of them was for the environment. You know, we were just like, one was efficiencies in bottling. You know, one was efficiencies in the bar. We made a lot of mistakes, business mistakes. But yeah, all of those products came in the same bottle at the beginning. How did you think about the bottle, the package design, the label design, as being different, as differentiating from other products that were out there on the market, both on-premise and off? It's all about thought. It's all about purpose, right? I feel like what we tried to do when we were looking at the gin, you know, I mentioned earlier that we asked bartenders for their opinions, right?

22:32We looked at the flavors in the botanicals and how they paired with flavors found in classic cocktails so that we could create a liquid that worked well in classic cocktails. Then we got second opinion, third opinion, in fact, over 100 opinions to help us form how that liquid would taste and how it would work in cocktails. It's a philosophy that was created in that moment. So it would make complete sense for us when it came to packaging, which is obviously the second part of the story. Once you've got a liquid, you've got to put it in something to ask the bartenders who are going to be pouring it on a daily basis what they would like to see in a bottle.

23:06And at first, I took all of the stock bottles that were available to my bartender friends, hoping they would pick one. And of course, the answer was, oh, we like the neck on this one. We like the middle on that one. This one holds a speed pourer best. So all of a sudden, I'm like, all right, we're going to have to design a bottle. And we're going to incorporate a lot of people's favorite features. And we even made some, you know, we didn't end up with any of these innovations, but we even tested some design innovations to see if they would make the bartender's life easier. So it wasn't cut and dry as design a bottle.

23:35It looks good on a pitcher. We made and mocked it up. We gave it to our friends to work at and shift, see how it handled, see if it fit in the speed rail. You know, we just made a limited run of 100 bottles and tested and tested until we ended up with one that I would say doesn't really reinvent the wheel. It sort of just takes in some of the best parts of classic bottles that have been out there in the world, you know, a neck that liquid pours with a flow and an air bubble going up, you know, measurements on the side of it so that you can batch cocktails or do stock counts, you know, that make life easier.

24:07So it was that thought process that went into liquid, went into the design of the bottle, and it also went into the label. We said, what do you want on the label? And honestly, honesty is the answer, really. Everyone was like, we just want as much useful and honest information as possible. No secret ingredients, you know, like carefully guarded secrets. They didn't want any of that. They wanted to know how it was done. And it made sense to me because today's bar back is tomorrow's bartender, you know. Yesterday's bartender is tomorrow's bar manager and then bar owner. And then maybe they're going to become a spirits entrepreneur and do something like that as well.

24:42So there's a journey. And so it's my duty because I'm on that journey to share what I can the best I can. Quick break. If this episode has you thinking about what's next in food and beverage, explore BevNet and Nosh Insider, our subscription platform with deeper insights from the BevNet team. Visit tasteradio.com slash insider to learn more. There was a lot of thought that went into the bottle to liquid, and you had a lot of people on your team that could produce that information, to produce that kind of valuable insights, those kinds of valuable insights that would lead you to the development of the 86 company and the products that are a part of it.

25:22How much did founder expertise, that of distilling, that of bartending, again, employees only, two of the co-founders of 86 company are for employees only, which is for folks who are not familiar, one of the best bars in the world, one of my favorite bars in the world. And also, you know, branding, you yourself, I mean, I would say at that point, You knew quite a bit about branding and how to build a great brand. So how much does founder expertise play into the potential success of a brand and the success of Fort's Gin? I think a whole lot, especially Fort's Gin, right? Because it's a brand that's not ever been built on having a huge budget for marketing.

26:00So it's about being nimble and smart with limited resources. And so I do think that as founders, and I wasn't the only one, And there was also the unsung hero behind the scenes, a guy called Malte Manikau, who came from business school, went to INSEAD. And he's the guy that put together the spreadsheets and ran operations. We had a guy called David Goodacre that had come out of operations. And so, you know, I get a lot of the credit as the front man, as it were. But, you know, it's a band. And everyone's expertise played into making the right decisions. Because one wrong decision and the business could have been over.