The Links Between Music, Cocktail Culture & Innovation

0:10Hello friends and thanks for tuning in to taste radio the number one podcast for the food and beverage industry I'm Ray Latif, the editor and producer of Taste Radio, and with my co-host for this episode, John Craven, Jackie Brugliera, and Mike Schneider. In this episode, we talk trends and innovation from behind the bar with the 2023 USBG World Class Bartender of the Year, Renato Tonelli, and Julie Reiner, the owner of world-renowned New York City bars, the Clover Club, and Leyenda. Did you notice I'm extra pumped today? Did you see that? I just kind of like shook with some excitement. What's going on?

0:49Were you crushing Red Bulls? No, I wasn't crushing Red Bulls. I wasn't doing any espressos. And I wasn't doing anything, you know, that you're not supposed to be doing. But no, I'm excited for this week because we're just about two weeks away from BevNet Live. Oh, yeah. And being in New York City in June at the best event in the world for beverages and beyond, it just gets me pumped. I mean, you're always excited in front of the microphone, but when you're on stage with the microphone. Oh, yes. That's when I pee my pants. Yes. Jeez. A whole other level. People didn't know that. People didn't know where it depends on stage.

1:25And then he jumps into the crowd and starts crowd surfing. Yes. I don't know. That would be cool. That would be awesome. That would be kind of fun. Now, I'm really excited. And I'm so excited for people who are attending the event because they're going to get to meet buyers from Sprouts. And Jackie. It's Walmart. Walmart. Yeah. Last week we did say that it was a retailer that started with a W. And it is Walmart. So the largest retailer will be in the room at BevNet Live taking one-to-one meetings with emerging beverage founders. Yes. Very exciting stuff. So much better than Winn-Dixie. Or Wawa.

2:09Didn't you say Wawa last week? I did. I don't know. I mean, those would be great, too. Trying to pull out like a random... Wawa, Wegmans, Whole Foods, but it is the big one. Walmart. Now, this is like an actual sit-down meeting with the buyers of Sprouts and Walmart, but how does it all work, Jackie? So it's really simple. All you have to do is register for BevNet Live, and then you will get an email with instructions into your inbox on how to sign up. It's one click. One click. Oh, it's like Amazon. One click, yeah. Oh, nice. I like that. And the whole thing is powered by SIP and high-touch libations.

2:39It's really cool. Again, this is your time to sign up. I mean, if you want to meet some of the most important people in our industry in one room over the course of two days, you can do so by attending BevNet Live June 14th and 15th at the Metropolitan Pavilion in New York City. Be there or can I still say B Square? B Square. B Square. Okay. Be there or B Square. It's also one giant, giant room, just to be clear. It is. You'll be in the square. Yeah. You're not in like a tiny little room with these people because I don't want to. We shouldn't scare people. No. No. I also do want to plug the Taste Radio studio that will also be part of BevNet Live in New York City.

3:17We'll be interviewing attendees at the show, including you, potentially. Just let us know if you're interested in an interview. Send us an email to ask at tasteradio.com. Obviously, we can only do the interview if you are at the event itself. So excited to see all the folks that are going to be there. And perhaps we will even sit down for a conversation. There should be like a Ray Latif animatronic thing going on in the Taste Radio studio. That would be actually very helpful because I'm usually wiped at the end of these things. They already have one at Madame Tussauds. I can't imagine what it looks like.

3:53John Craven melted. Sorry. No, sorry. They should have been me. I'll probably interview Jackson and Brian Zapp from AFS Applied Food Sciences, the presenting sponsor for this episode of Taste Radio. As we've said before, and it's true, AFS is the leader in innovation for functional, organic ingredients in the natural products industry, and is built on the belief that quality is transparent from seed to label through organic farming, ethical sourcing, and sustainability. You can learn more at AppliedFoods.com, and you can also learn more at BevNet Live, Summer 2023. 23 so i don't watch 60 minutes all the time but uh i happened to catch a segment on youtube that interested me and it was with rick rubin who is the producer producer i'll call him the world famous producer at this point definitely who has worked with some of the top artists in the world he started out in hip-hop working with bands like the bc boys run dmc a little cool j and now he's pretty much worked with everyone since, including people like Adele, Johnny Cash.

5:01I mean, the list goes on and on. If I had to name all of them, it would be here forever. And it was really interesting because he was talking to Anderson Cooper about how he thinks about innovation in music. And I'm reading from a transcript here. And Rick Rubin said, the audience comes last. And Cooper said, Anderson Cooper, how can that be? And Rubin said, well, the audience doesn't know what they want. the audience only knows what's come before, which I thought was quite interesting. And I think there are probably some parallels to what we see in food and beverage. John Craven. And putting me on the spot.

5:38Always. Well, for sure. I think there's obviously a lot to innovation in food and beverage that is kind of going beyond what the consumer is like actively looking for right now. And we've talked about this before, it's sort of like, you know, that long tail innovation sometimes that the consumer, like, again, they just didn't know that such a product could exist. I think on the other hand, you know, maybe in comparison to music, I think consumer adoption of new ideas of food and beverage, like what you're actually going to like put in your mouth, you know, is a little different than maybe what you might be willing to listen to, right?

6:21I'm not sure, is there like a share of stomach equivalent music? Probably, right? Probably, yeah. Definitely. Share of headphones? Share of headphones. I'm sure there are some parallels there. Well, Anderson Cooper followed up by saying, isn't the whole music business built around trying to figure out what somebody likes? And Rick Rubin said, maybe for someone else it is, but not for me. And I think that's where you really do have to be, I don't know, someone who's seen it all and experienced it all to figure out what sounds or what might taste good to a broad audience, right? Well, if you're going to be someone like Rick Rubin, who's had success after success after success, I mean, he helps bands figure out what that next level sounds going to be, but he also does his very best to keep them in some kind of, you know, situation where the mainstream is still going to like them.

7:17So he knows how far to push it without pushing it too far. And I think that's a big thing in food and beverage too, is a lot of the innovation that we see isn't too far afield of what we already have because the mainstream consumer can't handle it. Once you start to get too far down the road in terms of your roadmap, it's either too hard to explain, or it's just you're ending up in a niche that is hard to get out of. That's a really good way of putting it, Mike. And I think, you know, we just did an interview, We just published an interview with the founders of Poppy, Allison and Stephen Ellsworth, earlier this week.

7:54And the brand has really grown since they adopted the term soda and since they embraced the word soda in what they do. Because people know, they have a frame of reference for certainly what soda is going to taste like. They know typically it comes in a 12-ounce can. They know what kind of flavors to expect. It's carbonated. It's carbonated. And Poppy has done a really good job saying, look, this is soda. It's just better. It's just better than what came before it, at least in terms of ingredients and health profile. The other parallel that you could draw in music is genre. So you can be somebody who breaks all the rules and makes up a new genre, but it's going to be harder to find fans because they're not going to sort of tag you with other bands that are like you.

8:41So you think about like Spotify, for instance, and you'll find a band and a lot of times people go down the rabbit hole and they'll find artists that are similar to this artist. And that's because they've been tagged and they're in a similar genre. And it's kind of the same in food and beverage where if you go in and invent something new, you're really hoping that somebody else thinks it's cool and does it too. Well, what's the audio equivalent of adaptogens and CBD then? Where like, you know, you could have a music style, but it's like plussed with some extra stuff. I mean, there's so many equivalents there.

9:17Like look at surf rock, for instance, surf rock started off as one, one genre. And now it's like in so many other pieces of music throughout the year. So I don't know, you could name any of the hip hop's the same way. There's so many genres that have started off as one thing and then other stuff kind of goes into it and it becomes something else. Well, no, I don't think so. Because like, you know, adaptogens, you just add them to everything, right? True. So you need like for your, what you're saying to be true is there need to be like, I don't know, maybe surf rock and surf hip hop and you know, I don't know.

9:54Well, are you talking about like the Telecaster or the Stratocaster? You just add that to anything and it sounds great. I mean, those are the standard instruments that you could, but that's it. I'm leading you down a rabbit hole. Yeah, you're leading me down a ridiculous rabbit hole. Jackie, help, save me. I think I'm kind of like leading you down a well or a mine shaft. It's happened before. I'm baby Jessica. I'm never coming out. They have to dig for me. Well, you're also looking at like the ingredients, which you can focus on when you're making music or when you're thinking about instruments.

10:28So it's like instruments and ingredients or genres and categories. And I think there's a blurring of the lines in genres sometimes. Like there's alternative hip hop, alternative R &B, there's like soft jazz, there's like just a whole realm of genres and sub genres. And I think we're also seeing that in like food categories and beverage categories, you know, people in different genres. Yeah. And I think also with production and producers that are very well known and very established, they, like Mike was saying, they've seen it all and they're able to pull from different genres and pull different sounds and see what works and come up with ideas that the mainstream audience hasn't even thought about.

11:13They don't know that they need. And the same thing with like consumers. It's just something new. Like our Rick Rubin is probably Lance Collins. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think Rojanoza seems to be that kind of person who can take an idea and go from like half-baked to fully-baked, you know, taking brands like Vitamin Water by Poppy, just really injecting that kind of mainstream appeal that a brand needs to get to that$100 million, billion-dollar status. Well, the mind shaft I was leaning you down, Mike, I was actually Sort of just poking a little fun at our own industry where sometimes brands are like heavily marketing these like ingredient, these things that are added.

12:01And, you know, it kind of doesn't always connect with the consumer. Right. I mean, it connects with some small set that's like super in the know, but those are not like, you know, things that easily go super mainstream. Right. So maybe we should do a little less of that. Well, I mean, kombucha is a mainstream beverage. It's a mainstream beverage category. But I think what the holy grail for kombucha has always been was that soda alternative, that soda replacement that, you know, people could use to swap out their Pepsi, Coke, what have you. And that's why I think, you know, when we are seeing the rise of these gut-friendly, better-for-you sodas, Olipop, Poppy, Culture Pop, they just have that frame of reference again that goes back to something that is very familiar.

12:48I think also with like kombucha, it started with a smaller targeted audience and they were focused on gut health. And that's what built the category to begin with. And then in order to transition into something that's more mainstream, it's the comparison of a better for you soda. So I think even with music, sometimes it starts as something that's more niche, but then and it goes on into something that's more mainstream as it evolves, as an artist evolves. Like Taylor Swift is now mainstream, but she started more country. The mainstreamest. Yeah, that's a good point. She definitely started out as more of a country singer.

13:26And then she's more like a goddess or a priest or something. Cult. It is, it is. We talked about that last week, but that is just, it's absolutely nuts. The obvious difference here, I guess the elephant in the room is that a band can, they can make music and kind of slog along for as long as possible. They don't have to worry about putting, like, you know, cans on a shelf somewhere. No skew. Proliferation. I can't even say the word for now. Just song proliferation. You know, you need to make more music or not. Just, you know, you make a few good albums and you can just tour them forever like pavement.

13:59And I guess that's what's your goal. Like, what's your goal as a food and beverage brand? Are you looking to go mainstream? Are you looking to go, like, deep into a region or a category? Right. And I think that's another difference, too, is that in music, you don't have to go mainstream. You can, you know, there are sub, like Jackie was saying, sub-genres and - You can be a ska band. You can be a ska band and exist. And it's kind of hard to be the ska band of beverage and exist for a long time. The difference is that it's not a good thing to be known as a sellout in music, but being a sellout in food and beverage means you're a big success, right?

14:33Exactly, yeah. Well, speaking of brands that I feel like have some pretty serious mainstream appeal or could potentially have some pretty serious mainstream appeal. I've always been a fan of wet hydration. My favorite kind of hydration. Yeah, exactly. You don't like dry hydration? I like the wet kind. Hot hydration? Yeah. Wet hydration is founded by Spencer Atchul. It is, surprise, surprise. A hydration beverage that's made with electrolytes, the one I'm holding in my hand. Is there new packaging? It's now gone from 12-ounce bottles to 12-ounce cans, slim cans, that is. is their watermelon variety.

15:11It's made with watermelon flavor, lemon, lime, and electrolytes. There's zero calories in sugar. It's non-carbonated and it's sweetened with monk fruit extract. I have definitely turned to this brand a number of times after a soccer game or two. I've been crushing those lately. Yeah, I'm cracking open this can. My first wet hydration out of a 12 ounce can. Spencer, thanks for just sending enough for us to be able to crush them for a couple of weeks. This is a great tasting beverage. It tastes good. They really do. And I think people oftentimes are like, I don't like monk fruit. I don't like stevia.

15:42I don't like erythritol, things like that. But Spencer and his team did a really good job using the monk fruit as a sweetener and keeping it at zero calories and zero sugar. I think so too. I mean, because in a lot of those hydration beverages, you're expecting it to have a little bit of a different taste anyway, because of the vitamins and such. And this one, this one's good. There is a bit of a parallel in terms of flavor to things like Gatorade and Powerade. So it's not like you're drinking something that is so off the map in terms of flavor. It is not too dissimilar for most big brands. It's genre appropriate.

16:17Jackie, you have a can of something in your hand as well. I have a can as well. I know we were talking about Better For You Soda. So this is a Better For You Soda. It's called Sati CBD Soda, the healthy soda company. And it has 23 milligrams of CBD in it, zero milligrams of THC. and it's marketing itself as a hemp beverage. It also says that it's a chill ginger beverage. And when you're looking at the ingredients, the one thing I did notice that it does have kava in it, which it doesn't say on the front of the can. And I guess some people would be a little bit worried about that, how chill you would get drinking this.

16:55But it tastes pretty good. It's nice and light, 40 calories, 9 grams of carbs, and that's the sugar content. Jackie going for kava at 8.30 in the morning. Yeah, a little sip. Only a little sip right now. Got to make it through the day. Yeah, I remember meeting that brand and the founders at the Winter Fancy Food Show. Great tasting beverage. I also did not know that there was kava in there, but they make great flavorful products for sure. Jackie mentioned CBD. Over the weekend, I tried a cannabis beverage, that Breeze, B-R-E-Z. It's 2.5 milligrams of THC. What's that? It's got some functional mushrooms or something.

17:32Functional mushroom, THC, and CBD. So 2.5 THC, 5 milligrams CBD. I think it's Delta 9. And I felt nothing. I was so surprised. I was, like, ready to melt. I was ready to see Snoop Dogg again. It's only the Matrix, see the unicorns. Yeah. I felt nothing. Did you feel chill at all or more giggly or happier? I guess I was a little bit chill, and there was a little static, I guess, from time to time. But I don't know. I didn't feel much different. Less belligerent. Yeah. So are you now like California sober curious? Is this the new phrase I should be using? Well, sober curious means I just pick my spots.

18:10Sometimes you're curious. Sometimes I am. I definitely was curious about Breeze, so I tried it, and yeah. Okay. It tastes good. It tastes like, it's kind of like squirt. It's got that grapefruit. That's a really weird comparison to make. It tastes like squirt. I loved squirt back in the day. What the heck does squirt taste like? Is squirt even still around? Actually, someone asked me that question. does squirt taste like squirt is the lemon lime well squirt yeah i mean i'm sure it's still around yeah um no well you're talking about then they're new no they do they still have squirt though because they have sunny well yeah i was gonna say they have sunny but like i think squirt is sunny or different definitely out there there's you know that uh fine uh fellow danny ginsburg out in la who makes all the retro sodas i'm sure that guy's still making squirt Oh, okay.

19:00In a long neck glass bottle. What am I thinking of? No, I'm thinking of Sierra Mist. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you're definitely confused. I don't think anyone needs Sierra Mist. Okay. No, Squirt is owned by KDP, Kirk, Dr. Pepper. That stuff reminds me of my grandmother. She used to get Squirt and we'd just hang out. She'd make pizza or something. Oh man, it takes me back. I love Squirt. It goes well with pizza. Okay. What goes well with ice cream, I hear, is booze. And John Craven has been chomping at the bit, waiting to get a scoop of this ice cream that I brought with me. That was kindly, kindly sent to us by the folks from Salt and Straw and Straight Away Cocktails who collaborated on a new product.

19:44Oh, where is it? There we are. I finally get my Salt and Straw. Yeah. The new product is a lemon marigold Amaro Sherbert. So I'll let John Craven. Sounds great. Yeah. Yeah, sorry, Jackie's like, yeah, I mean, you know, it would be nice if... Come to the show here. Are they selling it in stores? As described in an email sent to me, two Portland-based and founded brand Salt & Straw and Straight Away Cocktails are launching a new collab ice cream as part of Salt & Straw's Eat Your Flowers spring menu. Straight Away Cocktails award-winning Marigold Amaro is featured, as I mentioned, in the new Sherbet.

20:21Is it Sherbet? It's not Sherbert. Sherbet. Sherbert. Well, I think in Massachusetts we say Sherbert, but it's actually Sherbet. Jackie? How do you say it? Oh, no. Jesus. Sherbert. John Craven's sucking his thumb over here. I knew Jackie was going to say Sherbert. I was like, can we call in Nate for some emergency napkins? Yes. Because I don't know if I can continue. Oh, God. John Craven had to run out of the room because he needs a napkin. Sampling gets messy. Just so we can be aware of what we're about to eat here. We should be expecting a light fluffy ribbon of lemon and marshmallow essence.

20:56To answer your question directly, Jackie, the new flavor will be available at all of Salt and Straw's scoop shops nationally, as well as available for national shipping online. John Craven is back. He's cleaner, as it were. And we are going to taste this ice cream. I'm sorry, the sherbet. Okay, one for Mike. Cheers. One for me. One for Mr. Craven. And I'll have to head to my local salt and straw. Are there salt and straws in San Diego? There are. There's a couple. You can go wait in line down in Little Italy. Yeah. Yeah, see, that's the thing, Jackie. You can actually just go have it. I can have this in my daily life.

21:36See, this is the kind of sherbet that's more... Whoa, this is great. ...similar in consistency and flavor to ice cream or frozen yogurt. Do you taste the flowers since they're focused on flowers? Mm-hmm. I taste the Amaro a little bit. What is it? Like lemon flavor? Limoncello? It's lemon marigold maro sherbet.

21:58They never put a foot wrong at salt and straw. I don't care what it is. All of their flavors are delicious. It's cool because they do a bunch of different seasonal flavors. So whenever you're going, you're always expecting something new and there's always a line out the door. They also have a lot of plant-based options too. And I used to live in Little Italy and San Diego and I would strategically wait for the times when I knew there wouldn't be a line and head over there and grab my ice cream. When was that? Like four in the afternoon? I'll have the chocolate honey badger, please. Really good.

22:29There's also one more pint here if anyone would like. What's the other flavor? It is. This doesn't have any marrow in it, unfortunately. Pistachio with saffron and rose water. What? Dang. That sounds amazing. That'll be awesome. They just come up with stuff. You're like, I would never make that flavor, but I want it. I had no idea that I wanted that. Things we didn't know we wanted. Again, niche innovation. That sounds like baklava. So that sounds like a nice Mediterranean flavored ice cream. Yeah. I wonder what their food lab looks like where they're crafting up all these flavors. It's probably a kitchen.

23:01Yeah. I'm like, who gets that job? Also got to give a shout out to the folks behind Mooski. M-O-O-S-K-I. This is a chilled oat bar. This is their cookie dough variety. mooski participated in the nosh live winter 2022 pitch slam and i have been a huge fan of this brand ever since i tried it is so great tasting and i i didn't know i had another bar in my fridge and i found it behind i don't know a jar of pickles and i'm like oh my gosh is that the best when you find a snack or a beverage you forgot you had in the refrigerator and then you're like Speaking of which, Salt and Straw is now releasing a Moosky Pickle.

23:46Moosky Pickle. Moosky Pickle flavor. Yeah. That'd be awesome. But in terms of like these chilled snacks, these chilled bars, I mean, the flavor of Moosky just is as good as it gets. So big fan, as I mentioned, this brand. And thank you so much to the team behind it for sending this. Actually, no. Yeah. You know what? This is from Expo West. Yeah. Like it's been sitting in your fridge, right? Yeah. Yeah. So not too, too long. A couple months. What's the shelf life on that thing? I don't know. So, I mean... Is it now fermented food? That's kind of what I'm trying to ask. No. No, I think this is still good for another...

24:17I don't see the expiration date, but I think it's still good for another two, three months. Try it and find out. Put it back in the fridge. Yeah. All right, it's time to get to our featured interviews for this episode. Last month, I had the pleasure of attending an event in which the best bartenders in America vied for the title of 2023 U.S. Bartender of the Year. Organized by the United States Bartenders Guild, or USBG for short, and sponsored by beverage alcohol giant Diageo, the two-day competition was held in Austin, Texas, and featured 30 of the nation's top mixologists, each of whom were asked to put their skills, senses, and agility to the ultimate test with a series of intense challenges inspired by current spirit and cocktail trends.

25:07Ultimately, the title was earned by Renato Tonelli, a bartender and the beverage training director at esteemed New York City bar Dante. Renato will now represent the U.S. at the global finals in Brazil this fall. Judging the competition were industry legends and luminaries, including Julie Reiner, the Brooklyn-based owner of world-renowned cocktail bars, the Clover Club, Leyenda, and Miladies. In this first series of interviews from the USBG World Class event, I spoke with Renato about his background and experience in the competition, and note that our conversation took place before he was announced as the winner, and also spoke with Julie about how she uses her influence to promote positive and progressive trends from behind the bar and in patrons' glasses.

25:56all right i'm here in austin texas at the world-class u.s bartender of the year competition for 2023 and sitting in front of me right now is one of those competitors a top five finalist as it were renato tanelli from brooklyn new york renato how are you i'm great yeah you know working a lot uh working on the competition right now so yeah it's been tough it's been a big long ride Well, I saw you this morning in the first challenge. You made a delicious looking cocktail. I didn't get to try it called Breakfast in Austin. What was that all about? That's right. It's kind of a mashup of two cocktails.