The Secret To Mario Carbone's Sauce

0:10Hey folks, I'm Ray Lateef and you're listening to the number one podcast for the food and beverage industry, Taste Radio. This episode features an interview with chef Mario Carbone and Eric Skay, the co-founder and CEO, respectively, of Carbone Fine Food, the fast-growing consumer brand born from Mario's critically acclaimed restaurants. Get access to limited swag and exclusive content by becoming a Taste Radio VIP. It's easy for you to join that group of very important people. Just head to tasteradio.com slash VIP and take one minute to sign up. If you're going to do something, be the best at it.

0:53That's quite literally the secret to Mario Carbone's sauce. The co-founder of globally renowned restaurant company Major Food Group, Mario is a native New Yorker who learned his craft under the tutelage of some of the city's best known and admired chefs, including Daniel Balud and Wiley Dufresne. In 2011, Mario and business partners Rich Teresi and Jeff Zalaznik launched Major Food Group, which currently operates 27 eateries across the world, anchored by his namesake Carbone restaurants. Two years ago, Major Food Group launched Carbone Fine Food, a brand created to, quote, bring the taste of the iconic, beloved Carbone dining experience into consumers' homes.

1:36Helmed by CPG veteran and former Rao CEO Eric Skay, the company markets a trio of pasta sauces and has rapidly developed into one of the most widely distributed and best-selling premium sauce brands in the U.S. In this interview, I spoke with Mario and Eric about their shared vision for Carbone Fine Food, how they attempt to incorporate the flair and panache of Carbone restaurants into the brand, who they identify as the product's target consumer, their thoughtful pricing and promotional strategy, and why they're cautious and patient about introducing new products.

2:15Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now I'm honored to be sitting down with Mario Carbone and Eric Skay of Carbone Fine Food. Gentlemen, how are you? Doing great. Fantastic. Thanks for having us. Thank you very much for joining me today. This is very exciting. Mario, you are, to the surprise of some folks, I would believe, based in Miami now. You were born in Queens, a New York guy through and through, but living in the FLA these days, what brought you to Miami? I mean, we made the move as a company. I was, you know, myself and my partner, Jeff, we sort of took team during COVID. We took the mentality that we were just not going to be stopped by this situation.

2:59and we still we we put our heads together we figured out where can we continue to keep the wheels moving how do we keep the business moving how do we keep people employed how do we keep the lights on what do we have to do and all roads immediately pointed to miami and you know it was a big move for us extending the company that way and creating what effectively became another main pillar of our corporation and that was enough to move me as well i mean that was a big thing for us to do. And I wanted to be part of overseeing that. So yeah, I live in Miami most of the year now. I'm still in New York very, very frequently.

3:37I still have a home there as well. And, you know, who knows what the future holds, but for the foreseeable future, that's sort of my world. Are you getting used to the weather there? It's not bad. It's not a bad perk. It's kind of surprising because when I think about New York, I definitely think about Italian food. When I think about Miami, not necessarily, but has it become kind of a haven for Italian food since you guys have made it your home? I think people love food, right? I mean, I think good food, no matter what it is, is always going to have a place. So, you know, I don't think necessarily that it's better for one cuisine or another.

4:17I think it's just a booming place right now. And if you've got something to sell that's of any consequence, you've got a market here. You have been in the restaurant and food business for a long time, Mario. And I think back to your days at Cafe Balud. And I think some people might not know that you were a line cook with David Chang, who is really famous for Momofuku now, the Momofuku empire, as it were. And when he started Momofuku Goods, he had said the goal was for 50 % of Momofuku's revenue to come from outside the four walls of the restaurant. Do you have a similar vision for Karbun Fine Food?

4:59Well, Dave has always been obsessed with consumer packaged goods. Ever since I've known him, he's always obsessed with that idea. You know, it found me and us as a company much later than it found Dave. That was a path that he knew was going to be for him and something that he's put a ton of time, energy and research into for years and years. And he's done a fantastic job with it. So that statement from him doesn't surprise me at all. Will that be the case for us? I'm not sure. You know, we're sort of in the midst of this first product that we've launched, something that I would not have anticipated years ago.

5:40And it's been an amazing journey so far, getting to work with people like Eric who are stalwarts of the industry. And what will come from it, I'm not sure, but that's really exciting for me as well. You brought in Eric as the CEO. Was it right around the launch or had you guys been talking for a while prior to launching the brand? No, I think we met right around the launch of it. I started inquiring, you know, who might be the right person to help us do this. Obviously, we're a restaurant company. We know that world. We have that skill set. But this is a very different beast. We'd be fools to try to tackle it on our own.

6:19Who's the right person to take us there? And immediately all roads led to Eric. Eric, you know a little bit about the consumer package goods space. You even know a little bit about the tomato sauce space as well. Talk a bit about how you met with and got to know the team at Major Food Group and Mario. So I'm a private equity person initially introduced us that, you know, Jordan Gasper initially introduced us, Mario and I had a chat and it was very early on, you know, pre-pandemic. I was still at Popcornopolis, so, you know, really couldn't do anything. So at that point, it was just conversation.

6:57Mario was thinking about it. And that's when Mario went out and started looking for people. And there's another person that I had consulted for in the past named Gary Davis that knew Mario and his team. And, you know, Gary ended up being a reference for me with the team as well. And then, you know, I met Mario. Then I flew in to meet Jeff in New York. And it just kind of came together. I mean, when I when I looked at the the category, I knew that the super premium space needed something. Just having run, you know, a different one a few years prior, you know, running running rails. So like I knew there was an opportunity to go into the space and have a complimentary brand.

7:35I think Rayo's is one of the most fantastic brands ever made. And I thought that it needed, you know, someone next to it. I think that helps drive categories, right? Competition helps drive categories. And I think that's where we're at now. I mean, we're head down and growing. And I haven't pulled the spins data lately in terms of comparing us to other brands. But last time I pulled it, we were the fastest growing consumer packaged good in conventional grocery. And that's all categories, right? Wow. You know, we've really grown this brand pretty quickly. And it's because there was already a brand in place.

8:11Everything that Mario has done up until this point gave us what I tell my team is the Carbone Army, the people out there that know Carbone, that love Carbone, and that will buy our products. So it was a nice base to start with. The press release when Carbone Fine Food launched had mentioned that the brand was years in the making, and maybe that's referring to just the development of the brand as a whole. But why was 2021 the right year to launch a consumer brand? I don't think that the year had anything really to do with our rhyme or reasoning. often for us, even at the size that we are today, it's still really just a gut instinct to do a project, to not do a project, to start something.

8:58And we had gotten to a place with, at that time, four locations of Carbone worldwide and a pretty substantial portfolio where we were looking to really continue to diversify. And we had started an internal conversation about wanting to explore the idea of consumer packaged goods and the Carbone brand living in a space that is beyond the walls, to Dave's comment, beyond the walls of the traditional restaurant. We thought that we were at a place where we had enough momentum, enough recognition as a brand to really play in that arena. And that's a really exciting thing. But that took 10 years of hard work in the restaurant walls.

9:40Now, the restaurants that you operate, Mario, are pretty fantastic. I've only been to one that I can recall, and that's Contessa here in Boston, which is just a fabulous restaurant. Anyone who's visiting the area should check it out. There's a flair, there's a style, there's a panache to your restaurants. It's an experience for sure. Do you try to incorporate that experience into your sauces? And if so, how? I think that the sauces are a byproduct of the experience, right? I don't know if you can bottle the experience, but you can give them a tool, which would be the sauce in this instance, to take that home and have that be the spark of something that they're creating on their own, right?

10:22For us, it's all theater, it's all storytelling. And in theater and in storytelling, every single piece and element and decision and textural moment counts. It all will lead up to the sum of its parts. So at Carbone, certainly the food and the kitchen and the ingredients and what we're producing there is an element of it. Can I bottle up the rest of it and give it to you? No, not really. But what I can do is give you a tool. I can give you the starter kit. You can take that home, put Frank on, drop the lights real low, throw some pasta in the water and have yourself a night, right? Make your own movie.

11:00I was going to say you could even jump on Spotify and get Mario's playlist if you want. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. Well, I was just going to mention that to listeners who may not have caught the Frank reference. I assume you're talking about Mr. Sinatra himself. Are there any other Franks? Not really. No, not when it comes to Italian food. Just checking. Yeah. Yeah. Eric, when you're talking to retail buyers and brokers about Carbone, how much does the experience, how much does that restaurant experience resonate with them in getting them interested in getting that palette wet, so to speak, so that they are willing and excited about bringing the brand and bringing the sauces into their stores?

11:45Look, I mean, I've taken retailers to the restaurant because they wanted the experience. And I think there's nothing better. Like if I take a retailer to the restaurant, they get it immediately. But I think the thing that retailers understood is just the massive following that Carbone had already, right? So I was able to take that and illustrate that we would get on the shelves and sell from the very beginning. And we really have. I mean, Ray, I've been fortunate to do a lot of fast-growing brands in my life. And I always say this one feels like Arizona Ice, Steve Toomey, you know, where I started my career where something just took off.

12:21Don't get me wrong. It's a lot of work. I forgot how hard a startup was. At the same time, I have a startup with a brand and this brand just turns. There's a certain segment of people out there to just know and get Carbone. And we were able to portray that to the buyers. Mauro, your restaurants are super premium, ultra premium in some cases. Not everyone can afford to have a meal at one of your restaurants. And, you know, that's just the business you're in. But when it comes to your sauces, it seems like they are a bit more accessible, even at a price point of$9 per jar. Who do you see as the target consumer for the sauces?

12:58Are they your patrons from your restaurants? Are they people that don't necessarily know about your restaurants but are very into premium sauces and a higher-end jar of tomato sauce? It's D, all of the above, right? I think that my patrons, although an avid Carbone army, as Eric calls them, a large group of people, it's still we're talking about nationwide and even a bit international at this point for the sauce. So it certainly has to be much, much bigger than that. And although I'd like to believe that the Carbone brand has very strong recognition, I think that there's also a segment of people that don't know the brand yet.

13:40So I think that, yes, it's our consumers that are picking it up off the shelves. I think, yes, it's people that have not been to the restaurant, but have heard of the brand and are curious about it or taking up the shelves. And then there's maybe just somebody who's a food fan, a gourmand, an avid home cook who's looking to buy something that's maybe new to their market, but is obviously top quality ingredients. They care about what they're buying. They care about what they're serving. They care about what they're giving their children. And they're going to give us a shot. So I think the answer to your question is hopefully all of the above.

14:11I did some panel data here on this because I wanted to really understand our consumer. Our consumer is 20 to 35, which is interesting because it's not the consumer for the rest of the category. So we're actually bringing new buyers into the pasta sauce segment that are younger, that are, call it, pop culture savvy. And when I read about Carbone in the beginning, one of the lines that will always stick with me is, mid-century elegance beats pop culture. And I think we get in that younger audience because of how well-known Carbone is in that pop culture world. It also seems like millennial and Gen Z consumers are willing to pay more for better food.

14:52In this case, they're paying, again, a pretty significant premium for tomato sauce, but this is definitely not your grandfather's or even your mother's tomato sauce. This is Carbone. So how do you market? How do you explain that price point to a consumer who might like your labels, might know a little bit about Carbone, but is still questioning, you know, a price point that is hovering around nine or ten dollars? Yeah, I think someone already charted the path for us, right? I think Rayo's charted a path for a premium consumer. I mean, there's a couple of things going on, right? The category in general has been premiumizing for a long time.

15:30So it's no different than like, you know, the beer category where craft beer became a big thing, right? Same thing kind of happened here. And the category continues to just go more and more premium. And I think that's helping us because as they go premium, the consumer is looking for a new entry to the sauce market. And, you know, it's funny. I always remember the stat back in the beverage business in the early days, back when I was at Arizona Tea, 75 % of decisions were made at the cooler door. sauce is more of a planned purchase, but it's still about 35 to 40 % made at the shelf. I think our label jumps off the shelf.

16:08I think people are looking for a better option. They're looking for different options. And if they know Carbone, they want to try it and they'll take a shot. At nine bucks, you're going to take a shot, right? If it's 30 bucks, you might not take a shot at something. At nine bucks, you're going to take a shot. And when you do take a shot, you come back because what we put in this jar, I believe is the best tasting jarred sauce on the market. You know, I think the first time I had Rayo's tomato sauce, it was on promotion. It was on sale at Whole Foods. And it seems like it's pretty consistently on promotion whenever I buy it.

16:39And when it is, I buy a lot of it. How does promotional pricing fit into your retail strategy? Very important, particularly in an early brand, because you have to create trial, right? So you have to have those trial driver tentpole events and around the time when families get together. So like Easter time, you know, that we just pass over Easter that we just got through big time where families get together and you'll see a lot of sales to drive trial during that period of time. You know, once people try this brand, they come back. But it's a very, very important part of the business. When you have a premium item, it's very, very hard to just go EDLC and sit there.

17:17You've got to give a consumer that doesn't know Carbone a reason to want to try it. So it's an important part of the business, but it should be at key times of the year and it should be for very short durations. Mario, from what I've read about you, you're quite ambitious, as are your partners. And I think the first restaurant that you launched, at least the first Carbone, you had, you know, grand visions of an Italian restaurant that could be, you know, the biggest and the most recognized in America. You know, when you're thinking about the potential for your consumer line, Do you have the ambition for it to be, say, the number one premium sauce in America?

17:55Or is it something that can just live as a great brand doing great business? I think if you're going to do something, you should try to be the very best at it, whatever that means. I believed in that since I was a kid. That was instilled in me. You know, like I said earlier, had you told me a few years ago that this is what we were doing, that wasn't on our radar. are, but the fact that we're doing it and it's going so well doesn't surprise me at all. Once we commit to doing something, we are 100 % all in on it. And we want to make sure that we bring the same attention to detail, the same attention to it as we do anything else that we do.

18:32And if we do that, everything's going to work out. It's going to be okay because we believe in ourselves. And yes, so certainly the goal would be to be the best, to put out the best and to be the best. Absolutely. When we were developing this product, Mario and his partner, Rich Teresi, would get in a car at three in the morning in New York and meet me at our production facility three hours away. And we would just taste and taste and taste. And I can tell you for the first year, I tasted every single batch that was jarred before it went into the jar. Quality and doing something at a very, very high level and doing it the best is important.

19:10And that attitude is ingrained in me as well. And that's the attitude that I expect the CFF team to have. Yeah. If we're working on something, a jar gets delivered to all of our homes. We get instructions of exactly what this batch is, how it was produced. We all taste it simultaneously. We all give each other our notes and we leave with an initiative and a directive on whatever that is. Eric, when you're tasting, do you use a spoon, use some bread, dip it into the pot? in? No, just a little bit of sauce. I don't need to taste the whole lot. And you don't want to have anything to change the taste.

19:46I need to taste just straight sauce. And what's funny about it is I've tasted tomato sauce so many times. And the fact that I'm still not sick of it, it tells you a lot. Mario, this CPG business, the business of selling consumer products is challenging. It is a grind every single day, you know, as is the restaurant business, but there's some significant differences between the industry that you have long been a part of and the industry that you're currently in with consumer products. What's been the biggest learning curve? What's been the steepest hurdle when it comes to learning about how to market and sell a consumer brand?

20:23Marketing and selling are things that Eric spearheads, right? I mean, I think that I'm smart enough to know that I don't know those answers. And that's why we sought out, the best in the business to be the person who is helping dictate a lot of those things. I think for me, what I learned, what I'm continuing to learn in development is that things don't necessarily happen at the pace that they do in the restaurant business, right? If I want to make a change to something, I want to tweak something, I want to create something, It's a slower process. It's moving a cruise ship and not a motorboat, right?

20:58So these things take time to develop, to get the right products in, to get them at scale, to make sure that all of the metrics that we're looking for in that jar or that product are hit. So the constant pace of development is something that we're still getting used to. But I think that we're starting to get into a rhythm with it. Eric, how much do you take consumer feedback into account when you are, you know, thinking about innovation or presenting something to Mario and the team or presenting maybe, you know, a tweak in terms of the formulation? I guess, how much do you take into account consumer feedback and that of your retailers?

21:39I mean, I think it's important to listen to your retailers and listen to your consumers. So as we hear things, I definitely look at them. I'll source them up to Mario, Richard, Jeff and say, hey, what do you guys think? Or even if we do a study like we have, we've done studies that tell us, OK, these are an excuse that you should go into. We talk about them as a team. We see if we can execute them at what we call a restaurant quality level. Like when we put something in the jar, we want something that you would expect to get in a restaurant. So we've got to make sure that there's no obstacles to take it to that level, because when we make this product, right, like it's not, it's not like we're opening up 55 gallon drums.

22:15This process is the same exact process that's done in a restaurant, just in a little bit of a bigger pot, but it's still what I would call small batch. At this point, Carbone Vine Food is a tomato sauce brand, but clearly it has potential to be a platform brand. Mario, So in what other categories do you want this brand to play in? And, you know, there are some obvious ones, but, you know, what do you see as having the most potential when it comes to entering new categories? I think it's cultural. I think Carbone, as it continues to grow and as it continues to be recognized by a bigger and bigger audience, its potential is the entire culture of Italian and Italian-American food.

23:02So that's a really big category. But I do believe that we've made a huge amount of traction and at first the work that we did in the restaurants in the first 10 years and now the noise that we're making in sauce, the options are really only limited to the culture as a whole. So if I can ask more specifically, I mean, do you see an opportunity to go into say pasta versus frozen entrees, you know, olive oil versus olives. I mean, I guess, how do you weigh what makes sense for the brand? What will make sense for your consumers and what you believe as an entrepreneur? I'd say the reason I'm hesitant to give specific answers is because there's a lot of work for us to do still with tomato sauce.

23:49And we are not really allowing ourselves, although it's obvious that there's huge amounts of opportunity out there for us. We are not really allowing ourselves. as Eric could tell you, to talk about it at all, because we want to stay hyper-focused on continuing to pound away at making the best sauce in the world. Eric has taught you well, Mario. I can understand it better. We agreed right from the beginning. We were going to get sauced right, and we were going to get sauced right in a very big way before we went anywhere else, right? Like, I mean, it's Mario's point. There's a ton of categories that you can go into in Italian.

24:26And if you want to break it down, you can take what's a$3.5 billion category in the United States being sauce. And if you take it to any category that could be Italian, you have a$70 billion addressable market with all the different categories that you can go into. Do I know every one of those categories? Yes, I know every one of those categories. Do I know the size of every one of those categories? Yes, I know the size of every one of those categories. Have I talked to Mario about any of them? No, we will at the appropriate time. I mean, at the appropriate time, we're going to sit down and say, OK, what makes sense next?

24:57Well, I mean, the brand, as you mentioned, Eric, you know, is on fire. So I think some folks would say, well, if you're on fire as a brand, you should just, you know, keep the pedals of the metal and, you know, keep fueling that fire. But it also makes a lot of sense to stay ultra focused on what you're doing, because you could be distracted and it could affect your growth strategy. All that being said, it does seem surprising that a super premium tomato sauce brand is one of the fastest, if not the fastest growing in consumer products. And I know, Eric, you talked about the following that Carbone has, but what are some of the other reasons that you see this happening?

25:39Why is it happening? Look, I think we made a great product. I think we extended distribution maybe a little faster than I even wanted to, right? We're in 14 ,000 doors right now between the United States and Canada. There's 683 pasta sauces that scanned through spins last year. We are now number 20. In New York, we're number seven. To get those kind of numbers in two years, literally two years, our first bottles went on the shelf March 1st of 2021. The brand's growing. So to go back to your thing about expanding, why? Right now, we need to stay hypervigilant in that one section calling on the same buyer.