To Live Her Dream, She First Needed To Create 'Absolute Trust' In Her Brand

0:10Hello friends, I'm Ray Lateef and you're listening to the number one podcast for anyone building a business in food or beverage, Taste Radio. In this episode, we sit down with Amanda Thompson, the founder and CEO of leading non-alcoholic wine brand, Naughty Wines. When Amanda Thompson launched Naughty Wines, a pioneering brand of de-alcoholized wines, in 2019, she was, in essence, flying blind. There was no NA wine category to speak of, little in the way of market research, and certainly no blueprint on how to build the type of company that she envisioned. But Amanda, a former BBC journalist and broadcaster, did have a gut feeling.

0:51There were, she believed, millions of people like her who sought high-quality wines made without alcohol. Turns out that she was right. Six years after Nadi's debut, non-alcoholic wine has emerged as a mainstream concept and is commonly seen in drink menus at restaurants and bars, as well as grocery and liquor stores across the U.S. In the following interview, Amanda talks about how she charted an unknown path for non-alcoholic wines, why creating, quote, absolute trust in the purity of naughty wine is key to the brand's resonance with consumers, and why she advises early-stage founders to think about what they want to achieve when crafting their business plans and strategies.

1:36Hey folks, it's Ray with Taste Radio. Right now, I'm honored to be sitting down with Amanda Thompson, who is the founder of Naughty Wines. Amanda, great to see you. Oh, it's great to see you. I've been really excited about this one. I was really earmarking getting an invitation. So thank you. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And I am excited to talk about Naughty Wines. I just want to clear the air, get the elephant out of the room right now, because the podcast has been a place where I have talked about non-alcohol wines for some time. And a lot of the products that I've tasted that have come out over the last two, three years, I feel like have not necessarily fit the bill, at least for me.

2:18And you and I chatted a few days ago, and I feel like I got a bit of an education or at least a different perspective on non-alcohol wines. My thinking was always that these products should taste like the real McCoy. They should taste like alcoholic versions of wine. And you essentially had said, no, they don't. Could you talk about their perspective? And I think it would be helpful for our audience as well. I love that emotion in your voice, the sadness. Yeah. I mean, we can wipe that away. We can breathe. we can just have a whole new world of wine specifically naughty yeah so what we were kind of getting into was what my vision was and my vision was never to create a replica and that kind of idea that something should be the same as I think what for me you know it's like what are my favorite fine wines I mean none of them are the same I'm still a wine lover that's what kind of blows some people's minds and the vision was could I create something that was really elegant that fit alongside my favorite wines and I could transition in and out of I think the new term is zebra stripe drinking or bookend or whatever the fashionable term is now in January 25 but just really I could blend into my everyday fine wine drinking.

3:41I was kind of a champagne geek a wine nerd I was really snobby about wine I think I have to put that out there and I think that's often an ironic part of my journey because people are like what do you mean you've got a non-acquant wine brand and you're a wine snob and I'm like yeah those two can really fit together even though I've kind of blown your mind with those two things I was super fussy about what I was drinking very long story short I left my career behind and trained in in wine at Cordon Bleu in Paris I did the first ever wine diploma and actually my first mentor was the gentleman who was then the world's most famous song who sadly died a few years ago a wonderful wonderful man called Gerard Basset who had a history of bringing on women in the wine world and so actually my history is all about fine wine and champagne and I would argue it's really pertinent to my success with non-alcoholic wine which again sounds kind of like an oxymoron right going back to your point about good non-alcoholic wine but I think all of those things are highly relevant to my story going back to naughty what I was trying to create was something that was really pure, really elegant, beautiful liquid, but that didn't have alcohol.

4:53When you were thinking about Nadi as a business and how big this category could be, what was your process? What did you take into account? So initially, Ray, I'll be really honest with you. I didn't know non-alcoholic wine existed. And I think that's really relevant to this conversation because it wasn't on my drinking radar. And that's not for a moment to be rude about anybody who had a different non-alcoholic wine before I arrived but none of them were in my wine world and my drinking world and that's not to say I live in some rarefied fancy world I absolutely don't I work all the time now so very rarely fancy ever but I just was really fussy about my wine and therefore even the concept of non-alcoholic wine actually hadn't really even occurred to me what occurred to me and what's been fascinating is listening to some of your podcasts and just that kind of problem solving piece that so many of my favorite founders have fixed those problems themselves that they've been struck with and that was me basically because there was nothing for me to drink when I wasn't drinking and what I mean by that was I was transitioning to San Pellegrino and then I was going home and I was often not drinking wine even good wine every night and so what would I drink I would drink sparkling water and then I would go home and it struck me that if there wasn't anything for me to drink when I wasn't drinking perhaps there were lots of other wine drinkers like me and then it transpired there were millions and so there was what I saw just in my visionary mind as an open goal and I kind of saw myself as first mover I guess just because I didn't see a direct relationship with perhaps the non-alcoholic wine drinkers who had been drinking what existed before.

6:43So I was never looking at a historical small market. I was always looking at the vision of wherever there's good wine, I want there to be naughty. And I'm a visionary entrepreneur in the sense that I've always known where I'm going. It's just the hard work in getting there. I see brand building in that way. So I have not wavered on that. I don't know what that makes me from an analytical point of view, but I've always been very focused and confident in my vision. And I would argue part of that was to do with my quite complicated, difficult childhood, which I was very independent and resilient from a very young age because I had to be.

7:23And so I guess I've just been used to getting on with things. and of course the secret sauce of damn hard work has never fazed me because that was how I've always been. You know I'm reading from an Instagram post where we pulled a quote from an interview I did with Ben Whitty who's the founder of a relaxation brand called Recess and he said identifying unique insights before they're obvious to the market is fundamentally the job of the entrepreneur. Right. I'm like Amanda fits the bill that's exactly what you're talking about and that's exactly who you are. But convincing others, convincing investors, convincing retailers, convincing distributors, that's another thing.

8:05And yes, investors often say they bet on the jockey, but they still need to be convinced, I think, from a market standpoint. Okay, yes, I believe in Amanda. I want to give her money, but like, is her brand actually going to work? Yes, I believe in her vision, but is the brand actually going to work? What were the key selling points, for lack of a better term. Yeah, I think liquid trumps everything. Yes. And can I pause there? I mean, we talk about this on the podcast all the time. I can't stress enough. Taste, taste, taste, taste, taste, taste, taste. Has to be there. Otherwise, you don't have anything.

8:41Exactly. And I think it sounds really obvious to you and me saying that. I'm constantly shocked, disappointed, surprised, most saddened by beverage entrepreneurs who don't focus enough on their liquid. I personally love Brand Build and I'm all about brand, but I'm like, brand can be fixed, right? I mean, for me, the liquid is the drink, right? You can sell anything once. So for me, going back to your point, liquid for me was everything from the standpoint. And so I think that's absolutely where I've started and I think that if you've got passion and focus and you believe in what you're doing to such a large extent you know that's quite infectious and I think you know so many terms are overused in this space authenticity is overused isn't it but I guess it emanates from me because I'm like the nerd who really has to struggle to keep any friends because all I really do is talk about naughty 24-7, you know.

9:45So I don't think you can fake it really. And so I think if you've got great liquid, you're brand obsessed, the opportunity is there and you've got the passion and you kind of don't see a no until it's a yes, then you hopefully might be successful. I'm glad you brought up the term obsession or the word obsession and brand obsession. When I was in London in October, I had an opportunity to sit down with Olivia Ferdi, who's one of the co-founders of Trip, which is a highly successful functional beverage brand based in the UK and making its way here into the United States pretty darn quickly. And she talked a lot about how important it was to come out of the gate strong with a great brand, great package design, great liquid, and be obsessed about all those different things.

10:34When you talk about brand obsession, How do you define it? How did you identify those key parts of the brand that you had to get right out of the gate? And obviously we talked about taste, but what other parts of the brand? There are caveats to that for me, and I'm sure there is for every founder, whether they're sharing or not. But, you know, I'm not going to sort of stand here and say, I have a perfect brand because obviously everything's iterative, right? Or at least it should be. I'm always trying to, you know, raise my own game with my liquid or my aesthetics. And actually on our stills labels, we're elevating the texture and the foils.

11:11And so, you know, I mean, perfect in entrepreneurial terms doesn't exist. Right. I mean, I think if you're innovative, you're always iterating. So it's I guess it would be just perfect enough for the stage. Right. And of course, one always has to make decisions. I remember when I first watched my champagne and the first batch came in. And of course, the foils were absolutely not the color I signed off at. you know and then you have that classic moment do i launch it do i not launch it you know i mean that's going to take another six months if i don't whatever but you know needless to say i launched it and then it became the full color that everybody loves right there's always those kinds of issues that are going to come along the way i think that going back to that unpacking obsession i think that because i've always known where i'm going my north star i guess it is because I've always had purpose not like oh do you have a purpose that you can build into your the purpose is part of what I'm doing I mean I believe my legacy when I'm long gone is that I'm giving everybody a beautiful health choice without them even noticing realizing or having to turn it into one and that's kind of been baked in from day one you know because we're agnostic about alcohol I still drink fine wine we all know alcohol's bad for us right anyone with a brain knows that we We can't pretend that if we're going to have an old fashioned tonight that it's a health elixir.

12:33You know, I think 2025, anyone who's smart knows that they can't pretend alcohol is good for them. That's obviously a scientific fact. But I think that what I love most about my brand in that regard is that we're a wine brand that's non-alcoholic. And that piece of semantics is really pertinent and relevant to me. And just to circle back to your original question about the opportunity. I always saw the opportunity as building into the mainstream by the glass wine list and also that second shot on the cocktail, the non-alcoholic cocktail list for the sparklings particularly, also the stills in some regard.

13:07And so the opportunity for me was always absolutely huge. It was to be part of every single by the glass wine list across America and to be available in the relevant retail premises. And so I can't really speak about obsession without it kind of touching every relevant piece of the brand. I think being obsessed also has to do with who you're selling to, who your target consumer is, and addressing their needs. As much as your needs could be filled by creating a brand like Nadi, it's about, okay, who's going to buy this often? Who's going to buy this on a regular basis? Absolutely. And of course, if it was just something that worked for me, I wouldn't be here with you now.

13:51Luckily, there were millions of people like me who were wine drinkers who didn't always want to drink wine. And that really has interested me in the beverage space. And that date is fascinating because, of course, it was almost like the wine drinkers who didn't always want to constantly drink wine all the time had kind of been ignored and forgotten about. Because I had no relationship with spirit space cocktails, I wouldn't really gravitate towards a non-Alpha cocktail list. and because I had no relationship with beer I wouldn't gravitate towards a non-alive beer list and it transpired that there were millions of wine drinkers like me and so when I'd identified my issue what am I going to drink when I wasn't drinking as a wine nerd there were millions of drinkers like that and I think in many ways they've been ignored not noticed forgotten about no I think ignored or not noticed is probably the personal part of that sort of jigsaw puzzle and so our consumers are generally wine drinkers i had a debate recently with a journalist and they were saying to me well are you taking a chunk out of the wine market or are you taking a chunk out of the sparkling water and general broader beverage market which was an interesting way to look at it but i think that what i've really set out to do with naughty is create absolute trust in the purity of the liquid and actually never want to sort of be negative about anybody else in my space i really you know obviously wish every founder well but i think that the problem at the moment in the beverage space is that obviously podcasts like yours and and brands like me being in the media we make it all look so sexy in the beverage space and we don't you know perhaps always share as much of the dirt as we as we could or should for a number of reasons but i think in 2025 wherever you are in the world if you're launching a beverage that's brand first not enough focus on liquid and purity and ingredients as your nilsson iq podcast showed i think that that is not a recipe for longevity and go back to the authenticity and what consumers expect and i was fascinated to hear my kind of hunch being verified on your podcast about the data which was how the modern consumer looks for all of those ticks together almost in a homogenous package you know they want good ingredients they want better for you of course they want it to taste damn good that's what we all have to agree that you want the great liquid but it's like they want all the other things as well they don't have to worry about them too much because we're all time poor right so i'm like anyone asks me for advice which obviously people do i'm like just do not put crap in there you know just don't do it don't hide the crap anywhere you'll get found out and i think the next big conversation in non-alc is going to be around sugar and chemicals and i've just started to have it now publicly not to really you know be negative about anyone's brands but because like have your sugar in your pastries you know have it where it should be i'm from a foodie background i do not want to be consuming a load of sugar and chemicals in my drinks and luckily Modern consumers I'm learning don't either.

16:57So I think the brands that are trying to hide things, I hope they look to kind of recognize that the commercial opportunity in the future is not in doing that. So focus on the purity of liquid would always be my mantra. There are a lot of brands coming out these days that are concoctions of something and then calling themselves wine. You know, what's your take on that? And I guess perhaps the definition or the heart of that term wine being diluted in some ways? Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think everyone else is having that fight for me. I mean, I've just focused on building naughty and doing what we do.

17:35When I'm asked about it and when I'm asked about legislation, I mean, you know, I think that ultimately we will get to a place fairly soon where wine will have to have been wine. I think that will probably come to fruition. I think not least because it's quite confusing for consumers. I'm always, you know, consumer first. and it's like talking about them being time poor and knowing they can trust we make great wine without bad stuff in it. It's like, if you're a tea, a kombucha, whatever you are, that's all wonderful. But why are you trying to pretend to be a wine? I think it's just a little confusing for consumers.

18:06And the second part of that is we work with a lot of amazing mixologists and why mixologists love my brand is because it's pure, because it's low sugar, the sparkling is organic. They want to create their own beautiful drinks. And so I guess a bit like Bill Shuford with Athletic, who I've always looked at as the kind of the mentor. I've been like, yeah, what Bill has done with Athletic is what I want to do with Naughty. It's like, you've got beer and you've got Athletic and you've got wine and you've got Naughty. That's kind of been, you know, me looking to him. I was on the board of the Non-Athletic Beverage Association with him when it launched.

18:37I was the wine specialist. But I guess, yeah, everyone can fight, you know, whatever works. I'm all about building the brand and focusing on the liquid. So we don't really get involved with anything negative in that regard. Yeah, and I think it's important to maintain a sense of cordiality for sure with your competition and no one wants to burn new bridges, but you also got to take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you. And there's been so much written about Nadi over the past six years now. I think in the last two or three years, the brand has gotten a ton of attention from consumer media, including the New York Times, where some of the most highly rated brands and their wire cutter section or review page, whatever you want to call it, have been naughty products.

19:23I cry very rarely, actually. But I think I probably cried the first time I was in New York Times. Just tears of relief, happiness, exhaustion. I mean, when the red was on the cover of Food and Drink, yeah, I mean, the red gave me so many sleepless nights. I mean, anyone who drinks good red wine, anyone who's trained in fine wine, the red just stressed me out greatly. And of course, it's a bit like, you know, like when you sort of have those interviews with pop stars and they have their first album and then the second album. And I'm not for a moment saying I was famous in that regard, but it was just like everyone had been very kind about my Blanc de Blanc, my sparkling Chardonnay.

20:02And I was like, I'm waiting for my fall, you know. So to go back to your question, no, you don't know who is going to like it. And also, I think, Ray, we both have to be realistic. I mean, you know, no one's going to love everything all of the time, right? So don't get me wrong. You know, sometimes people really don't like it. And I'm like, it's a drink. You're allowed not to like it. I'm disappointed. But luckily, the key players in the industry, in the American wine industry, yeah, blew my mind really early, which was incredible. It's the same, I guess, good kind of problem that a lot of folks who are on Shark Tank have where that kind of exposure generates sales immediately.

20:40And again, someone who reads, you know, the New York Times and sees the New York Times say, hey, you should buy this non-alk red wine or this non-alk sparkling wine. Then all of a sudden you have orders coming out of your ears and you're like, uh-oh, how do I fill these orders? Oh, your point about, thank you, your point about volume. Yeah, that was another part of the macro vision was I was always building something big so the challenge I had right in the beginning I remember saying to my winemaker how much I was going to sell on year five or whatever and he politely tried not to laugh out loud right I hadn't sold a bottle but I believed in my vision I had the blind faith that I think most successful founders have to have at some point quite early in the journey I had blind faith actually so I had said my forecast would have blown your mind it blew his and so we hit that forecast and i knew i wanted and needed the opportunity to scale so that offered another big challenge as to how i got the right partners involved because basically my model exists i'm the palette person i create the wine with the maker so the challenge was going to be could we scale to the plan that I wanted.

21:56So that was always baked in to do that. So yes, I was ready for the success, but it doesn't mean that I took it for granted, if that makes sense. So there was nothing arrogant about it. I don't want anyone to think I'm being arrogant. I think I just was so all in and so focused on my vision that I believed I could execute it. Quick break. If this episode has you thinking about what's next in food and beverage, explore BevNet and Nosh Insider, our subscription platform with deeper insights from the BevNet team. Visit tasteradio.com slash insider to learn more. Do you have to have a lot of inventory on hand?

22:37Can you? Because it's non-alc. I mean, alcohol is a natural preservative, so I'm not sure what the shelf life is on your product. And it's different actually from the challenges that the spirit world has faced in the non-alc sphere. Yeah, we're perfect on shelf life, no problems at all. Strangely, it operates like wine and the founder of Coravan um it was a it was a new business friend and we did a lot of experiments and I just recently took a bottle of I mean obviously no one's going to keep it that long because it sells really fast but I kept a bottle of Naughty Rouge under Coravan for the special sort of wine preservation system for six months and and it was perfect and so yeah strangely and we still don't science I'm not a scientist but the Smithsonian wrote an article about it and I don't think they got into this so any scientists might be able to tell me I don't know why, but it does operate as alcoholic wine in exactly the same way when it comes to its sort of staying power once the bottles open, interestingly.

23:34Throughout this conversation, Amanda, I've gotten the sense that you see Nadi as being a generational type of brand, one that can make its mark as a category leader, as a culture leader for years to come. And I think that's a really good way of thinking as an entrepreneur. I think that's a really good perspective, thinking big, even from the outset. I think it's kind of hard for some founders to have that point of view. Do they have to though? If I may. Sure. I would say you don't have to. Okay. Because when people ask me, I do a lot of mentoring with young founders, with diverse, different ages.

24:14I always say to people, what do you want to achieve? so I wanted to have a global leading non-alcoholic wine brand that was a household name that's a massive lofty vision right there are lots of incredible people with all kinds of sizes of businesses that hopefully it's giving them a great lifestyle and they still have some degree of work-life balance or whatever you know I mean everything is relevant I think in the beverage space, I don't know. I think that's a little trickier, unless you want to do the home ferment thing. I think for me, I don't really understand how anyone can create a business in this space unless they know what they want the outcome to be.

25:01For me, that doesn't make sense. So I usually challenge founders or potential entrepreneurs when they ask me, and I say, what do you want this business to be? Because there's so many different kinds of businesses, aren't there? So I think it really depends. My goal and what I will achieve, one will argue macro and lots of people would argue that I will have sacrificed so many things along the way because I work so hard, right? And it's not for everybody. You know what I mean? So I think it's really important to know what you're trying to achieve, no? Of course it is, yeah. I've talked to entrepreneurs who have been ultra successful, the founders of brands like Vitamin Water and Body Armor and RX Bar, and they are hyper-competitive, obsessed about being number one.

25:51Right. And I think to a certain extent, it has helped them be who they are, helped their brands be as successful as they are. But you're right. Not every brand is going to be a billion-dollar brand, and that's okay. I think what most entrepreneurs, most founders will say is that, yes, we do want to be a household name and we want to create a brand that is a household name. But it takes a lot of work to get there. And I think maybe you need to kind of, I don't know, adjust your perspective on what it takes to be successful. And I think in your six years in this business or five plus years in this business, as you alluded to, you've had a lot of hardships and it's been difficult and it hasn't been perfect from the start.

26:33But you've always had that North Star and said, OK, no matter what, I'm going to be going toward that North Star. So I think that North Star is so big and bright that it's like it's attracting me. It's bringing me. There's some sort of gravitational pull toward that. Whereas if you don't have that big, bold vision, then you can be like, oh, well, it's not that important. It's not that important to me. It's not the end of the world if I don't succeed. I think it's different for you and some of the other folks that I was talking about, no? I guess I do see my legacy when I'm long gone. I mean, I'm not religious.

27:05I'm open-minded, agnostic, spiritual, whatever. But I know I will have a legacy, which is that naughty will have changed people's lives in a fun way without them even realizing. So I see that. And I don't mean that in a, I'm not really actually a hippie type. I'm a really practical type, big pragmatic type, but I still see that. And I know that that's possible. Well, I see it. Again, I don't think that I was going to be convinced about the potential of non-Alquans until really early this year, honestly. I think what I had tried and what I had seen out of this category had just not impressed me.

27:45And now I am impressed. It's such a weird thing to say that you can flip a switch and say that, but it is true. I really do see a ton of potential for this category. You know, just to wrap up here, Amanda, I think, you know, for someone who is, again, one of the key figures in this space and someone who, in your parlance, can't muck it up, so to speak, what keeps you up at night? If we all really remember that it is a small world, we are all interconnected. It's easy to get kind of really dragged down by the bad stuff. And I'm an ex-journalist, so I'm always interested in news. I have a strong interest in what's going on in the wider world and the macroeconomic climate and the problems.

28:35And, you know, there's usually bad things happening. Right. But I think that ultimately, if you are in this industry for the right reasons, it's an incredible place to be. I meet wonderful people. And I think that we can really all literally rise together. I think that's why I said to you about I'll never publicly put anybody down, any brand down. I never talk about my competition. What I might think privately is different, right? But I think that it kind of sounds cheesy, but we've launched Naughty Acts of Kindness. And really because I've done this since I was young. I've recognized that the small things can change your day, right?

29:19So, you know, whether it's just buying someone a coffee who hasn't got the change, whatever it is, right? Just the really small things that can change people's day. And I just think it's a really small world. And if you are authentic, you're focused, you're doing something good, and you're kind, you're not, pardon my French, an arsehole, then I think we can all rise together. And it's super exciting. And I cannot tell you how excited I am about Naughty. Hopefully that comes across because there's so many incredible opportunities out there. Yeah, it definitely comes across. And I know that there are people this dry January who are trying Naughty for the first time and probably as impressed as I am.

30:01Amanda, I really think you're doing something fantastic. I'm pulling for you. And I think that your legacy is going to be in a good place. And not to think about your death right now. But I think... I've got shit to do, Ray. I think right now you've got a terrific life and you're doing good things. So thank you so much. once again for sharing your story with us. And let's definitely stay in touch. The next time you're in the States, and I know you're here once a month, please, let's meet in person. Boston, I want to drink with you at Stompsi's. Yes, there you go. Or here in our office, we have a great bar upstairs.

30:38So what we don't have is enough naughty. So maybe you can bring a bottle or two with you. Honest way. All right. Thank you so much again. Thank you, it's a pleasure.

30:48That brings us to the end of this episode of Taste Radio. Thank you so much for listening. Taste Radio is a production of BevNet.com Incorporated. Our audio engineer for Taste Radio is Joe Cratchy. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt. And our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smirlinski. And our designer is Amanda Huang. Just a reminder, if you like what you hear on Taste Radio, please share the podcast with friends and colleagues. And of course, we would love it if you could review us on the Apple Podcasts app or your listening platform of choice. check us out on instagram our handle is bevnet taste radio as always for questions comments ideas for future podcasts please send us an email to ask at taste radio.com on behalf of the entire taste radio team thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next time