From Patterns to Prompts: Pawan Verma on AI Across the Pharma Value Chain

0:00The specialty is one area that I'm seeing a great deal of innovation coming, and I'm very happy to say that it is helping longevity. I mean, you're seeing that across the globe, people are living longer, people are more healthier because of these innovations coming to life.

0:20Peter High: Welcome to Technovation. I'm Peter High, President of Metastrategy. My guest today is Pavan Verma. Pavan is the Executive Vice President and Chief Data and Information Officer of Sancora. Sancora is a purpose-driven global pharmaceutical and healthcare solutions company that earns more than$300 billion in annual revenue, ranking 10th in the Fortune 500. Its 51 ,000-plus team members operate across more than 1 ,400 locations in over 50 countries, providing integrated solutions that span clinical development and commercialization, pharmaceutical distribution, business operations and purchasing, global supply chains, and patient access.

0:56Peter High: As a member of Sincora's enterprise leadership team, Pavon leads the company's global technology portfolio, services, systems, data, and analytics, helping connect this expansive value chain and advance Sincora's purpose of creating healthier futures. Pavan joined Sancora in 2024 after serving as Executive Vice President and Global Chief Information Officer of MetLife. Earlier in his career, he held leadership roles at Footlocker, Target, and Verizon. In this conversation, we will discuss Sancora's business and technology transformation, the role data and AI play across the pharmaceutical value chain, and how Pavan is building the capabilities and talent needed to improve customer experiences and health outcomes.

1:36Peter High: Pavan, welcome to Technovation. It's great to speak with you today. Thank you, Peter. Thank you for having me. And I'm looking forward to the conversation. And thank you for that great introduction. Today's episode is brought to you by Tines 3B. Organizations are pushing teams to move faster with AI. That's creating a wave of AI-generated code and unsanctioned automations, leading to rising costs, security risks, and huge IT burdens. Meet Tines 3B, a single, secure environment that enables employees to build with AI while giving IT and security complete control to run and govern that work. 3B enables effortless building.

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2:44Peter High: Visit the Tines website at tines.com. That's T-I-N-E-S dot com to learn more and try 3B for yourself. And now on to the interview. Al, I appreciate it. I always look forward to our conversations, Pavan, and thank you so much for making time. Let's begin, if you don't mind, with Sencora. I must say the day you got the role at Sencora back in 2024, I was not aware of the rebranding of the company from Amerisource Bergen. So I'm thinking to myself, what my goodness, Pavan has joined this massive company that I'm less familiar with. And then I, you know, sort of it unfolded for me as to the organization that I did know previously.

3:21Peter High: Talk a bit about the company and its current instantiation, if you would. No, thank you for the thank you for the question. Yeah, I mean, I think you're not the only one. We recently, a couple of years back, changed the name. We used to be called AmerisourceBurgan. And as we became global, truly global, as you highlighted in the introduction, we operate in 40 plus different countries. And so the range and the scope is quite global. And we wanted it to be more global name in our naming. And that's how the word Syncora was born. As you highlighted, 51 ,000 team members, almost 1 ,400 or so different locations that we operate.

4:06And just to give you a number, you know, one of the things scale-wise people don't realize, you highlighted$320 billion plus revenue. know um every day five million plus for mystical gate in our broader network and as you highlighted with five million uh four million plus peter is within 12 days 12 hour of delivery so the scale and size is is quite quite vast and as you highlighted we are very purpose-driven company And, you know, as I have been really blessed to lead, you know, in other companies, we really take purpose to a different level. I have not had in last two years any conversation that any decision that we make as we think about financial capital deployment.

5:01We think about, you know, whatever is happening in the world, patient and center of everything that we do. So as you can see, our purpose is we are united in our responsibility to create a healthier future. We really mean it. And you will see that in the CEO's action. You will see that in board's action. You will see that in our call center action. So I think it's truly, truly embedded into our purpose. Second, and the last thing I would say about us is scale is an advantage, which is great. It is huge that we get to serve in the pharmaceutical value chain. But making prioritization sometimes can be challenged within that scale.

5:45And that's what I think we are working towards. Hopefully, that was helpful.

5:50Peter High: Yeah, fascinating, Bhavan. Thank you for that overview. Talk a bit about your role, if you would, as Global Chief Data and Information Officer. What's within your purview? Yeah, so we as a company, we are in the early value chain of pharma. So we're working with pharma companies on clinical trial, on drug discovery, and as well as in the distribution. So when we think about the variety of systems that get involved to really bring everything that we talk about to life, my role is part one, really orchestrate that that entirety of day to day operation from systems to data to processes to compliance to regulatory aspect that goes on.

6:37That is one part of my role. The second part of role that I'm very, very excited about is that as a ELT member, and I loved the way you framed it in the introduction, we do not call it executive leadership team. We call it enterprise leadership team because we truly are leading and it's a pleasure that you get to serve the 51 ,000 strong team members that you have. So the second job of mine is really creating that strategic connection for what is the art of the possible. So what is working today is awesome. What it could be in future as part of the executive, sorry, enterprise leadership team.

7:15See, I still make that mistake sometimes. And third is really trying to harness the value of data and AI and the future innovation that can come. I think those are the three different aspects of my day-to-day role. One of the biggest thing that I personally spend a lot of time in, and you and I have talked about this in my past roles as well. As a leader, my biggest job is to create talent and culture. Nothing gets done. I'm sure we will talk about AI. We will talk about, you cannot get away with that topic these days, and it's fascinating, but talent and culture and leadership is the most important thing, especially more so than it was in the past because of the technology changes that is coming.

8:05Peter High: Yeah, very, very interesting. A couple of things I want to double click on, if you don't mind, Pavan. Actually, one of them is your very title, actually, Chief Data and Information Officer. I find it fascinating that data is first, and you are the leader of all of technology. It's rarer these days to have data in the title for the top post, but it was important for you, clearly. Talk a bit about the rationale behind making it so clear in title as well as indeed the data is part of the responsibilities. No, really great question. And as you know, I don't think there's any right answer here. This is really one of the things that the board and the CEO felt that this is the right thing to do.

8:49Just to give you our volume and scale, 200 plus terabyte of data that any given day that we are, you know, custodian of on behalf of a customer. And we take that very seriously. And this is the healthcare pharma value trend data, which is even more important. Secondly, I believe data is a strategic asset for most companies. But before data, a lot of foundational capabilities equally has to be there. A lot of the foundational capabilities from your workload system, from your transactional system creates that data and making sure that their data is accessible, accurate, and reliable is the most critical aspect.

9:39So the board and the CEO absolutely for the right reason thought that integrating these two, it's not only the infrastructure, the cloud, the API side of the job, and especially again, going back to what is coming in front of us from LLM and SLM, they all need to tie together. So in my mind, when we think about broader transformation, it is tech, data, and human centricity all together. And I have many times talked about how we need to create experiences, those are high tech and high touch. I truly believe, Peter, that the more technologically advanced we become from technical capability and tooling, combining infrastructure, data, and the human aspect all together and weaving that in your value chain is going to be critical.

10:32Yeah, fascinating.

10:34Peter High: And now for good reason, you've mentioned the sanctity of people, talent culture, you framed it earlier as well, the essential aspect of that and really the precursor to any success that comes after that. I wonder, especially at your scale, which as we've both highlighted, is there are very few companies that have greater scale than your own, being a Fortune 10 company. I wonder, how do you think about the evolution of that talent and culture, especially in the face of great change? How does one make great change happen, given some of the dynamics you've already begun to reference and ones that we'll get to further in our conversation as well, to ensure that the talent and culture is in fact moving in the right direction as well?

11:16Yeah, this is the not technology challenge. I would say this is the biggest leadership challenge and amazing challenge that the leaders and companies have today. the technology evolution and i'm saying technology in a broader broader context is happening faster than then we are ready to adopt and more importantly we are ready to bring our workforce and our team members into it so as a leader the change management aspect you need to meet your team where the technology change is happening and you see a lot in the in the news these days. Last week, I don't know whether you had a chance to read an amazing essay written by Bill Gates when he is really articulating that the power of these technology evolution is awesome and they are going to create possibilities that you and I can't even think about today.

12:15But we equally have a responsibility as the leaders to bring the broader ecosystem, the broader workforce into it. So a couple of things that we are doing, and I truly believe that this is not only top-down led initiative. This cannot be top-down. This equally cannot be bottoms up as well. Otherwise, you will have a lot of eclectic tool and you feel good. We all are reading that a lot of tools are very expensive and they're not eating the value. I have coined the term that this change really has to be centered out. You need to think about bringing people, you're creating and giving them space for art of the possible but you're equally helping them how they adopt their change.

13:01Peter I believe people believe that change is bad I actually think change is awesome if you help people understand the change. If you help them realize what the change is and we have seen different incarnation of that in the past when the dot-com bubble came in, when the cloud came in, this is bigger than that. And this is not the last one. We are going to have more from quantum to space and other things. So how do we help our workforce? This is where the collaboration between myself and our CHRO is vital because we are blessed to lead multi-generational, multi-geographic, multi-ethnic workforce.

13:42And we need to make sure that we bring them along. My team member working in our call center and working in our technology team and working in our accounting team and working in the supply chain floor, they are different people. How do you bring them along? So we are partnering that on that culture, but it all starts with helping people understand in simple way what it is, how it will help them, what this change can mean for them personally for their own career journey here or otherwise. I think that to me is all on us.

14:17Peter High: Yeah, very well articulated, Pavan. Thank you. I also wanted to ask you, it would seem intimidating in some ways to drive innovation at scale in an organization that already has scaled to such a remarkable size. And I wonder, how do you think about driving innovation and value that moves the needle on a Fortune 10 company, moving from experiments to things that will actually scale? Yeah, I mean, this is one of the things I have always believed is that as a leader, our job is to provide clarity on velocity. So when you have very high velocity and you and I are seeing this, the amount of velocity that is coming our way.

14:56So how do you find clarity in that velocity? And then secondly, as you very rightfully say, how you get out of experimentation and try to put things that really meaningfully make change. So we have created these very strategy focus on how do we create more smarter team members. So one bucket is like just making you use the tools that is available, where it's Copilot, where it's Claude, like everyday Gemini, the tools are coming. And the outcome there is just to make you familiar about it. We are investing you to so that you learn about the tool, art of the possible for those tools. That is, I call it a smarter team member.

15:37Then we very quickly move to how do you take the same thing on capability creation and process optimization. That's when value starts to show up. And that value can be in efficiency, or that value can be on growth. Sometimes you just have incriminate productivity. But this is where our point of scale makes sense. Like for us in our scale, one small area of innovation and transformation, if you apply that into our scale, that yields a significant value. So we are very methodical on prioritizing what matters. And the criteria for that prioritization is not that complex. We really look at number one, what will help our patient?

16:23again goes back to a purpose. What can help us live a purpose morning, evening and night in every second of the day? Number two, how does it help in our profitability? And number three, which is the topmost is how does it help in customer experience, broader customer experience? I have started to add fourth one. I don't think this was in my list probably a year back, which is how do you create these things in a sustaining way? because what is happening is sometimes you do experimentation and you feel really good and you feel like even the token cost is high. This is good. But how do you start to think about sustaining value, long term sustaining value rather than just today feels good, but down the line it will not be.

17:10I think those are some of the things that, but again, if I were to sum up, it is all about providing clarity in that very high velocity. Yeah.

17:21Peter High: And you operate, of course, in the largest sector, in the largest economy on earth. 17, 18 % of our economy is in healthcare. And you see across nearly the entire healthcare ecosystem, Pavan, you and your colleagues, manufacturers, health systems, community and retail pharmacies, specialty physician practices. And I wonder from the perch that you occupy, what are the industry dynamics that present the greatest opportunities for your team to drive the sort of value you're describing? Yeah, you very, very well said. I think it's a blessing and it's a complex ecosystem. Healthcare is a very complex ecosystem across the world, but especially here for us in the country.

18:06And as you know, we serve customers and patients across the globe. So equally, we take that responsibility very seriously. If I were to look at that, it's really three things. Number one, there's a lot of amazing innovation coming on a speciality. The kind of innovation that we are seeing from broader pharma ecosystem in oncology, the biosimilar that is coming, the gene therapies, those are coming. So there's a lot of innovation. Some are in the marketplace. some we read about. And this is where I actually think technology can be a huge catalyst, huge catalyst, because you might be reading that there are real scenarios wherein the medications are getting tested on a virtual cohort rather than a physical cohort.

18:58And think about that for a second. You can look at all the genomics and everything in the virtual cohort without really trying to see all the side effect. The side effect will be visible, but on a virtual level that on a real level. So if you can do the early, the speciality is one area that I'm seeing a great deal of innovation coming. And I'm very happy to say that it is helping longevity. I mean, you will see, you're seeing that across the globe, people are living longer. People are more healthier because of these innovations coming to life. So that is one. Second, I would think is really how do we think about making access as fast as you can?

19:48So sometime the changes that is happening in the broader supply chain with natural disasters, with, you know, you see, how do you make sure that the resiliency is very well orchestrated into the broader supply chain? So that is the second one. And third, which I am super excited about on top of those two, I think we are going to find real innovation on some, like if you start to think about Alzheimer, if you start to think about some of the some of which technology will like we are really scratching the surface and the kind of conversation and kind of kind of investment that I see from the broader ecosystem in the space is really phenomenal early leads but those are the three that I'm super excited about and how amazing it is that we are in the center of that pharmaceutical value chain really helping manufacturers, customer health system.

20:52I'm glad you mentioned community pharmacy because not many times people realize that we serve the broader ecosystem. If there's a pharmacy in Utah on the corner of Boston, Maine, we are there helping that one pharmacy as well. But I think that's an amazing place to be to serve a customer.

21:11Peter High: And this really gets at that company-wide priority of patient access that you just referred to as well. And you're starting to note some of the really meaningful areas that your team helps deliver that. I wanted to make sure we were comprehensively covering that, though, because it is, I think, a really fascinating aspect to what your business as a whole delivers, but also the role that your team plays in helping do so. What else would you describe in terms of your team's contribution there? Take one, this one, actually, we take it very seriously. I mean, out of the broader pharma value chain, if you think about the supply chain side of the house, you are going to a doctor's office and you have, you know, infusion plan for whatever you're going through, your loved one is going through, and that happens to be at 11 a.m.

22:00in the morning in one of the hospitals. Some of the medication that has to go through for that value chain to make happen, They are temperature control. They are cold chain. And they had to be there in the right place at the right time for that particular patient to get that medication. So for us, when we think about patient access, it is about the quality, the time, the precision, because you cannot say this is not, I say with all due respect to all other supply chain, this is not T-shirts and, you know, you know, papers that we are shipping in a supply chain. That's very important. I'm not saying that's not important.

22:44But here, if you're not careful, if you're not resilient, if your team members are not really focused on that purpose, it can have quite different impact. So for us, when we think about patient access, access really means making the right medication at the right place at the right time so that that doctor and that caregiver and you and sometimes people don't even know us in the in the broader equation we we are behind the scene working to make all that happen um without people even even realizing and again goes back to resiliency we had uh wildfires in france think about if i had i had a medication going from europe coming to us or other parts of the world and the plane was ready to take it.

23:36And then at the moment, the plane got canceled. I need to have resiliency that it can be put into other place because there is somebody who's waiting for that other part of the world. And that's what our team takes it very seriously.

23:50Peter High: Very interesting. You know, one of the things I've always found fascinating about you, Pavan, I got to know you when you were the chief information and customer experience officer at Foot Locker two posts ago. And what I found fascinating about this, speaking about what's in a name, in your title, you had customer experience associated with this, that the call out of the profound role that an executive like you and the team he leads can have on customer experience. Ultimately, you mentioned earlier in this conversation, the sanctity of patient experience, obviously the correlation here in your sort of setting.

24:24Peter High: Talk a bit about your now having been a leader with an unusual tenure, having responsibilities and thought processes associated with customers, however they are defined at a retailer like Foot Locker, at a financial and FSI organization like Life, now in the healthcare space. What sort of thread do you pull across those sorts of experiences as you think about the ultimate consumer of what your business does and the role the technology plays in that? That's such a deep and very reflective question. I have always been a student of human behavior. I have human behavior and what we do really fascinates me, Peter.

25:08and you are absolutely right, whether the means of doing things keep changing, but sometimes, and we learn from it, but sometimes we all want us to be healthy. We all want to have, and healthy doesn't mean only from health, but also financial binding, mental wellbeing, the broader health. And there is a connected tissue that, you know, customers are evolving because of technology and how we as a leader help them in that evolution and really sometimes guide them and take them. So if I think about my retail experience, buy online, pick up from a store or when I was at Foot Locker trying to think about the work that we did for loyalty, the work that we did for accessing a sneaker or other things that is limitedly available.

26:07Or if I think about my time in Target, like similarly when the Target customer, when she's coming to store, we used to think about placement of product at the right place in store. And similarly placement of the product and the product taxonomy on the website as well. I would say a lot of those learning applies here as well. Because to me, again, that healthcare or retail and other, we are living the life and these are different facets of our life. We connect with retailers for certain things. We connect with doctors for other things. But at the end of the day, that's part of our entire life. So for me, understanding that, that we are part of that ecosystem.

26:51And sometimes what is happening is one, and this is very interesting point, that one ecosystem help you teach the other. So the expectation sometime on on-time delivery and second day delivery or making things accessible may not be created by you, may not be created by somebody else, but you need to adhere to it, right? Or you are creating an expectation in some cases that others have to adhere to. So I think it's really amazing to learn that. last piece I would say what things that were a little easier in some of those three, five years before is because the evolution of technology is going very fast now because as an average customer, you have access to these tools that you can look up today, what are, what is this, what is happening if I take this along with this medication, what kind of site, so some of those things are available to you in your fingertip So the knowledge in the past were co-created and co-shared by the companies and the customer.

28:02In this case, everybody has that commonality of knowledge is everybody has the same knowledge. Everybody's starting point is the same. I don't think it's a bad thing. I find it to be an amazing thing because then you can evolve to the next frontier. You can evolve to the next horizon. then you're not investing a lot of time on the commonality in education. So, I mean, to me, I find it fascinating.

28:27Peter High: Yeah, very interesting. Well articulated. And thank you for those reflections, Pavan. I really enjoy that. Let's talk a little bit more about the patient journey, if you will, and how you feel technology, data, and AI are making the biggest difference associated with that. Talk a bit about how you think about that. Yeah, first and foremost, I would say the technology evolution absolutely is helping, but we and the broader ecosystem, we need to make sure that we do all this with utmost trust and utmost transparency. And I don't say that just as words. We can all talk about the responsible use of technology and responsible use of AI framework.

29:10But it really comes down to, are these things adding value to me? This is what every patient is looking. Is it valuable to me? Are you being transparent to me on that value? And number third is trust. We need to earn that trust in every interaction, every interaction. So sometimes people can use all the jargon and all the framework. To me, it really comes down to common value, transparency, trust. So if you take that as a basic building block, then you can talk about the art of the possible and what all technology can do. So if I were to give you some examples, the innovation that we are seeing on one part on the discovery side of the drugs, I'm pretty sure the pharmas are working in AI and technology in general.

30:06Because the compute is so much easily available, not only because of LLNs, you know, oftentimes people are talking about the frontier model. I actually think equally companies will go to SLM, which is the specific model for that particular area, for that particular speciality. But the premise is that the compute is available and you can do all this much more faster. So the first part in the patient journey, I definitely think that the innovation in drugs will happen much more faster, not in all cases, than what we have seen in the past. So that's number one. Number two, once you have that, the clinical trial journey can again become faster because as we talked earlier, the clinical trial sometimes can be a combination of cohort from humans, combination of cohort from agents, and you can triangulate that.

31:01And again, it will reduce the reduce the life cycle. The other piece that I am fascinated about is that you will actually know about side effect and management of these things faster than then then you did in the past. So that is the second piece. Third, I think the excess because of that, sometimes pharma, if you ask pharma, they spend the most time in the discovery and the trial and before it becomes approval, approval process i think that life cycle becomes a shorter real shorter and and just think for for a second if it becomes shorter people can get access to those drugs faster they can recover faster they can live longer so to me in the early value chain i'm i'm definitely seeing seeing uh seeing that lot of lot of good good input the second side of this is that if you take an example of you know cancer you know I think there is the amount of personalized medication that I see next three to four to five year is is going to be the personalization of medication or personalization of your entire treatment clan or your regiments, not only one, from, you know, how you think about genomics to protein, like it will become much more personalized.

32:32And that to me would not have been possible 10 years or five years back. It is all because of technology that is possible. So that is the second big bucket. And the third is, you know, inventory optimization. This is our wheelhouse, trying to make sure that we can have a right stop trying to make sure that we are doing better demand forecasting we are trying to place the product in the right place at the right time so the access is faster again full circle back if we do the discovery faster if you have longevity and the side effect management faster then we need to do our job in the entire value chain to make sure yes, this happened, this happens, but the access, John is getting when he needs that, Mary is getting the medication when she needs it.

33:18I think that's what I think is all together, connected, coming together soon. Yeah.

33:24Peter High: Can you offer some thoughts, Pavan, as AI can be leveraged more broadly in the workflows across the organization, ways in which you just described, for example, what remains distinctly the leader's job? What doesn't change for the foreseeable future despite the increased capabilities and innovations associated with the technology itself? Great question. And I will qualify the qualify my I don't think I have an answer. I have an observation. I will qualify my observation with this is today. If you and I talk tomorrow, the world could change. I think AI, both. And I'm using AI more holistically because these days everybody's talking about frontier model and LLMs and all the names.

34:12I think for me, yes, that is extremely very, very, very valuable. We used to have a specific model that can be for the industry and the company. You can have classic machine learning and deep learning that is equally possible. And down the line, you can take all this and apply in a much faster way in quantum. So when I say AI, it's a broader context for me. What AI is able to do with that context is you will get speed, you will get compute, you will get, you know, trying to find a needle in the haystack if I use that metaphor sooner. But what AI will not replace is our ability to have this conversation in an authentic way.

34:55What AI will not replace is where earlier we talked about bringing people along. What AI will not in a very short future will not replace is what makes us human is that we can think, learn, unlearn and challenge our own learning all at the same time. Models provide very high predictability. I use this phrase that models help you grow, go from patterns to prompts. But humans have capability to change pattern on the flyer because they have new data, because they have emotion, because they have, will it change down the line? Can AI really replace cognition in an emotional label? I'm sure it will.

35:51But up to what degree? I still believe when it comes to judgment, when it comes to team dynamics, when it comes to culture, when it comes to connection, when it comes to emotion, when it comes to, I think I still believe that there is a place for leaders. And if I may add, there's a lot been written about how Zen Z is thinking about it. I have two of them in my house. I have a 16-year-old daughter and a 13-year-old son. And I see their behavior. They are using all these tools and technology, but they are equally connected with their friends. The means of connection might change, but humans are still car for that human connection.

36:38And I think the degree will change, Peter. But I've always said our previous generation of leaders led in a different context. We are leading in a different context. So context will keep changing. And I'm glad it is changing. Leading will always will be a pleasure and a fun and a privilege and challenge.

37:01Peter High: Well said. Very well articulated. I appreciate that, Bhavan. I wonder, any reflections on how AI has changed your own work personally? How are you incorporating it into your workflows to do things more easily or have access to information more readily? What are some reflections you have, at least again, as you pointed out, as we sit here today, knowing that may change tomorrow? Yeah, it's a great question. And I think one of the things that AI is absolutely helping me personally is like the readiness for my simple thing is when I get ready for my day or week. I have agents now that can look up what meetings I have coming up next week or week after.

37:40How should I prep about those meetings? How, where I should spend more time. I'm always conscious about as leaders. What we don't have is we have finite amount of time and I'm very careful on how you deploy yourself for talent and culture vis-a-vis business clarity, vis-a-vis engagement. And it's very, so it is really helping with that time management as well. The other piece that it is really good is that it is challenging me in my own outcome. So if I decide to say these are the KPIs and these are the outcome that I would want out of this, and once the meeting is done, once that sprint is done, it is helping me saying, hey, I asked the prompt, help me how I'm tracking with that.

38:27It absolutely helps me track that. It is also helping me prep on some of the broader town halls and other, because as a leader, you need to make sure that the messaging that you have is for the broader audience. So the audience management is something that is really helping me. If I say this is the audience that I have conversation with, these are the contacts, help me, it will very crisply, crisply help me, help me with that. So that is personally for the team productivity perspective, like we organize our team meetings now based on the past meeting that we have, what were the, what were the key takeaways and who's following up those key takeaways.

39:09is there is no human involved in that process now because agents can say what is the follow-up, when the follow-up should be needed. So I think it is definitely helping me being more productive, helping me being more thoughtful on the time management, helping me understand, prioritize my day and my priorities better. And then lastly, I think we are creating a framework that can prioritize the broader. It goes back to your point like, how do you create in your scale priority for the work. Like, how do you find materiality? How do you think that if you have 400 processes, which processes you need to automatize and which processes you need to spend the more time?

39:51It is helping me with that as well. Do I think I have all the answers? Absolutely not. But is it helping me? For sure. That's phenomenal.

39:58Peter High: Before I let you go, Vavon, I wanted to ask, is there anything you've recently read or listened to or that you do over time that you would recommend to others as you stay current on some of the topics we've described or maybe beyond the topics we've described? Yeah, I think for me, I've been an avid reader all along. So for me, these days, the predictability of leadership and what you need to work on, it's changing. How do you manage the change management? I have been, I'm sure you know, know this author we have talked in the past Adam Grant I've been hugely hugely influenced by by him I can mention book but I will rather than book since we are doing the conversation I have watched a podcast that Adam Grant and Brene Brown did recently it was available on YouTube and other other other places where they just talked about how vulnerability change management, human behavior, all that to come together.

41:06So for your viewers, if they have not seen that human resilience and amazing, I mean, these are icons and somebody that I look up to. So if you have not heard that podcast between Brené Brown and Adam Grant, I highly, highly recommend you listening to that.

41:24Peter High: Great suggestion. Well, Pavan, I always learn mightily when I am in your company and that has not changed today. I appreciate you sharing a bit about the work you and your team are doing of great consequence, as well as just broader reflections across a remarkable career to date with so much runway yet ahead of you. I look forward to remaining abreast of the progress to come and the innovations to come as well. But thank you so much for a terrific conversation. Great dialogue. And I always learn more than you might realize, but I appreciate you. I appreciate you asking some of these amazing questions and thank you so much