The psychology of forgiveness with Michael McCullough | from WorkLife with Adam Grant

0:00This episode is sponsored by Toyota. There's a difference between having options and having the right options. When something is designed well, it doesn't just give you more choices. It gives you choices that actually make sense for how you live. That's the thinking behind Toyota's new all-electric lineup. Instead of a one-size-fits-all approach, they've built a family of vehicles. The versatile BZ, the adventurous BZ Woodland, and the expressive CHR. Each one meeting people where they are. Because independence isn't about doing everything differently. It's about doing things in a way that feels natural to you.

0:35Learn more at Toyota.com, the new all-electric family. Toyota, let's go places.

0:44This episode is sponsored by Quince. This time of year, I tend to keep cooking really simple. Lighter meals, fresh ingredients, and quick dinners that don't require a lot of planning. Lately, I've been cooking with Quince, and I've genuinely loved how thoughtfully made everything feels. Their cookware has that clean, elevated look while still feeling practical enough for everyday use. I started using their ceramic nonstick saute pan recently, and it's become my go-to for almost everything immediately. It heats evenly, nothing sticks, and cleanup is incredibly easy, which honestly matters more to me than almost anything else after a long day.

1:21And Quince goes beyond cookware. It's a go-to for quality essentials across home, fashion, bedding, and more. They work directly with top manufacturers, so the quality is incredible, and everything is priced 50-80 % less than similar brands. Elevate your kitchen this summer. Go to quince.com slash tedhealth for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's quince.com slash tedhealth for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash ted health. This episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least.

2:03Kohler Smart Toilet challenges that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Veil Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional, it's a philosophy. That design changes everything. The Kohler Veil Smart Toilet is sleek, with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing. And it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that exceed expectations. It's all about elevating those ordinary daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design.

2:39Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over 150 years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high-performance function. That's a long time to get it right, and it shows in every detail. Experience the difference of Kohler smart toilets. Find out more at Kohler.com.

3:01Hi, everyone. Shoshana here. Today, we're sharing an episode of a podcast we think that you'll love. It's been handpicked by the TED staff, and we think that as a TED Health listener, you'll come away with a fresh idea and a totally new perspective. Enjoy and head to the link in the description for more. I think the thing that surprised me the most is just how badly resentment can eat people up and corrode relationships.

3:47on and challenge what we said. Today, we're following up our episode on apologies by talking about forgiveness with psychologist Michael McCullough. Mike is a UC San Diego professor and a pioneer in the study of forgiveness, as well as gratitude, empathy, and morality. He's the author of The Kindness of Strangers, How a Selfish Ape Invented a New Moral Code, and Beyond Revenge, The Evolution of the Forgiveness Instinct. We had a fascinating conversation about the psychology behind forgiveness, what causes people to hold grudges, and when it's wise not to forgive. I probably see it maybe a little bit more strategically than other people see it, kind of the motivational machinery that might make somebody interested in the first place.

4:38I was surprised by this point that you made about how resenting another person or, you know, failing to forgive within reason can actually take a toll on you. Being too unforgiving is actually bad for my well-being. Absolutely. Yeah. There's a giant research literature suggesting that resentments and unforgiven harms show up in lost sleep, lost energy, difficulties with regulating blood pressure, you know, just an enormous number of physical kind of sequela. But nevermind those, just also the unwellness that comes from ruminating and being preoccupied with really unproductive memories. So if you're sitting around nursing grudges, painting over people who've harmed you in the past with kind of scarlet letters and stigmatizing them and refusing to let them back into your life.

5:38I mean, you're stripping away sources of social support, but you're also going to get locked into a mental space of just thinking about how you've been mistreated rather than ways in which you've been really well treated by others. Wow, that sounds like a recipe for a victim complex. Yeah, totally. For a victimhood complex, I should say. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Let's start with the basic psychology of forgiveness. What motivates people to give it? What motivates people to seek it? What are we after? Let's take it from the seeking side. Why would you want forgiveness? Because there's actually risks to be had by even bringing up a harm that you've created for somebody.

6:18If you just think at the most basic level, well, maybe what I did to this person they never even found out about, or maybe the fact that they haven't spoken about it means they didn't care or it wasn't as big of a deal as I thought. So all along those points, I think what we're doing is trying to weigh risks because there is the risk of retaliatory harm. You know, maybe it's not somebody bashing you on the head with a soup can, but it's telling other people about the awful thing you did. It could be heaping guilt on you next time you talk. And I think stage one for most people would be to try to hide the initial risks by just denying them, you know, denying that anything happened, hoping nobody noticed.

7:09Because the further you go down that road of having to hear the person you harmed, yes, actually positively indicate you did harm them. Then there's been this kind of piercing to your own moral self-concept. Is he like a decent person? So even seeking forgiveness, deciding to seek forgiveness means acknowledging you harm somebody. You think of this like a trial, you know, you're kind of pleading guilty, you know. I like that. You have surrendered a big part of your potential defense when you seek forgiveness. I've seen people circumvent that risk, or at least try to, by saying, we don't see eye to eye on the harm done, but you're mad at me.

7:54So I would love to repair this so that you're no longer angry and we can get along. Does that work? In other words, can I still seek forgiveness without pleading guilty? I'm acknowledging that you've had a negative reaction to my behavior, but I'm not necessarily admitting fault. Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a tough conversational bid right there where we're not, you know, where we're not even going to agree on the meaning of the events. You know, if you think about this as a process of negotiation where I'm going to give a little, you're going to give a little, I'm going to try to get someplace mutually productive.

8:32I think that is a step, you know. So if what I said to you wasn't meant to be critical or ridiculing, but constructive or helpful, then same facts about what I said, very different intention. So where can we meet? Well, maybe we can meet in, I know this was harmful to you. I know this was hurtful. it doesn't it doesn't sound like I'm going to be able to convince you that my intentions were benign we're coming from different cultural backgrounds I grew up in a family where people you know argued in very pointed ways and it was out of love rather than out of you know ill will I can't convince you of that but I we can agree that what I did harmed you so it's a middle way I think, between, you know, a complete acknowledgement of the meaning that the victim has experienced and deny it completely.

9:36Yeah, that's helpful. So let's take the other perspective now. When someone has wronged you or you feel harmed by someone else, you have a few options. One is to try to get revenge. Another is to avoid them or ghost them. and then a third is to forgive them. How does the victim decide which option to choose? What our working hypothesis has been for a long time is that people evolved to forgive. As our species was becoming modern, there was a lot to be said for restoring the right kind of relationships. We're a species that requires a lot of cooperation to make a living. And we just don't have the luxury of just lobbing off every unproductive relationship.

10:29We have to restore some. But you could also make the mistake of forgiving rashly. And if you're going to forgive rashly, what's going to happen is you're going to end up repairing and restoring relationships with people who actually don't have goodwill for you, who harmed you and probably might very well harm you again. Or individuals who kind of don't have a whole lot of value to you going forward as a cooperation partner. And that's just kind of the tragic fallenness of our lives. And what I think a forgiver, what I think our evolved minds are trying to do when we're trying to decide whether to try to repair this relationship with somebody versus avoid them or retaliate is figure out, all right, I can see the benefits of restoring this relationship, but I need to figure out whether those benefits are on offer and I need to figure out whether this person's likely to harm me again in the future.

11:31And if the answers to that are yes and no, well, that looks like somebody who'd be a good candidate to forgive. And if not, well, maybe it's not so smart. That makes a lot of sense. It seems like where many people get stuck is instead of asking the question that you post, which is like, what is the future impact of this relationship? They think about the role the person has played in the past. Yeah. So like, oh, well, you know, I have to forgive their family. Right. Right. Or, you know, well, but they used to treat me well. Yeah. Never mind that, you know, something has shifted. How do you think about helping people reframe that?

12:10That's such a great question. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. And if you'll indulge me, I want to give you what I think is a pretty decent analog. on, when a romantic relationship ends, we often kind of like we know it's over. And yet there's a part of us that just sort of stays connected and attached to the relationship and you kind of have to grieve it and let go of all that. And I think that's because the mind is wired up in such a way that it doesn't want to let go of that really a relationship that was once really valuable too rashly. So I think the mind wants a lot of evidence to accumulate that continuing this relationship is not going to happen or it's a really bad idea before you're really willing to kind of let go of it completely.

13:05It's like, I really don't want to cut off this relationship rashly if we have this big kind of reservoir of positive relating in the past, because that's a good indicator we might have them again in the future. And that's where a lot of conflict comes from in forgiveness. Yeah, very much so. People often say, you know, you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you. But I also find myself reminding them sometimes, you shouldn't feed the hand that repeatedly bites you. Yeah, that's nice. That's really nice. Although you can't feed a hand. But, you know, forgive that part of the flip of the cliche. I love it.

13:47No, I love it. That's a really nice insight. Right. We have stores of positive relationships with a lot of people in our lives. And sometimes they do things that just require us to kind of cut off those relationships and the unproductive ones. You know, but we often look back and you don't want to give it up too quickly. You want to forgive. You want to forgive. You want to forgive. And I think we probably differ in this. Like some of us are really risk averse. you know I might be on this side I mean certainly I put more emphasis on trying to salvage relationships than a lot of people I know would you know a lot of people like why did you just like forget that person you know just move on and I think I'm like kind of conservative where I just think like man establishing relationships is really a lot of work and it takes time like I don't think I want to just like cash in my chips on that I think I want to spend some time seeing if we can rehabilitate it.

14:41Whereas other people are like maybe more comfortable with risk and they're like, nah, it's time to move on and find another best friend, you know, something like that. Yeah. I guess that reminds me a little bit of the Laura Carstensen work on socioemotional selectivity and how people become choosier as they get older about who do I really want to spend my time with? And so it sounds like you've resisted that pressure. Yeah. I mean, I think so. Yes. But, you know, I'm not getting any younger at the same time. And I can really relate to that. You lose some of that just sort of social entrepreneurial kind of spirit.

15:37it. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. There's a particular kind of joy that comes from a really good workout. When your body feels free, your mind clears, and you remember why movement matters. Peloton built the cross-training Tread Plus powered by Peloton IQ to help you find that feeling more consistently. Peloton IQ personalizes your workouts, plans your sessions, tracks them, corrects your form, and offers the kind of guidance that helps you unlock new versions of yourself over time. And because real fitness isn't just about running, the Cross Training Tread Plus features a swivel screen that lets you move seamlessly from a treadmill run to strength training on the floor, one smooth spin, no break in momentum.

16:23It's cross training reimagined with features designed to make your workout more personal. Let yourself run, lift, fail, try and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.com.

16:40This episode is sponsored by Toyota. A lot of us have this instinct to explore, to get out of our routines, to try something new, to maybe go somewhere we haven't been before. But the ability to do that, it depends on having the right tools. Toyota's new all-electric family is built with that in mind. Vehicles like the BZ Woodland are designed for movement and possibility, with dual motors, all-wheel drive, and the kind of capability that makes it easier to take the long way home, or leave town entirely. Because sometimes escape isn't about going far. It's just about knowing you can. Learn more at toyota.com, the new all-electric family.

17:17Toyota, let's go places.

17:30I'm going to ask you to put on your counseling psychologist hat because I need your wisdom and advice here. I don't get to do this nearly enough, so I'm ready. I've gotten what for a long time was confusing feedback from people who know me well. Some of them tell me I'm too forgiving and others tell me I'm too unforgiving. And at first I thought, OK, maybe that just means I'm in the middle. And then I thought, no, this feedback is coming from people who are farther on one end of the spectrum or the other than me. And so they're judging me relative to where they are. And I think there's some truth to both of those interpretations.

18:03But lately where I've landed is I think that the major driver of this seemingly conflicting feedback is I'm extremely forgiving of small violations and extremely unforgiving of large ones. Okay. And I wonder, is that common? Have you encountered this? How should I think about that? How do I explain it to other people who don't understand it? Just curious to get your reactions to that and what advice I am missing in how to navigate this. Yeah. I mean, I do think that, you know, the world is full of these, the mind is a prediction machine, right? What the brains are doing is allowing us to predict what the future is going to look like.

18:45And, you know, the world is full of these like extremely noisy cues. I would say you're probably being, you know, a fairly rational consumer of this kind of information. If someone's little harms, little slights, those are probably less diagnostic of somebody's underlying disposition. Someone who's always doing little slights, you might say, well, I'm pretty sure this is a very careless person. Just sort of principles of politeness they violate over and over. They're always late. They don't seem to respect my time or respect my feelings, but it's all minor stuff, you know. So I can just say like, well, this is a person I really like, and I just have to live with this kind of foible they have that seems to be intrinsic to their personality.

19:32So I think that's fine, you know, like you're, you know, depending on, well, let me ask you, when someone in your life, you know, kind of repeatedly goes through a sequence of these little slights, what do you make of it? What I usually do is I hear the, well, okay, I guess what typically happens is I sort of, I file it away as information about, okay, maybe this is a specific situation where we don't agree on principles or I can't trust them in this way. But it's part of a big 3D picture of them. Okay, yeah. And so I've just learned like, oh, they had all these virtues and now there's this little vice.

20:14And I want to be aware of that so that I don't bump into that issue again. Or maybe I need to give them feedback on that because they've never been told how it comes across. And then if somebody does something major, I think the big violations for me are in the integrity and generosity buckets. Yeah. If someone tells a lie or cheats or doesn't follow through on a commitment or uses others for personal gain, then I'm like, okay, yeah, this is a potential character flaw. And I do not necessarily want a relationship with this person anymore is my default reaction. I think that's good. Yeah, I think if you're, you know, you take these little ones and I mean, you could make the inference like, wow, interacting with this person is going to be a death by a thousand cuts.

21:03You know, it's, but that's, you know, that's, you know, but it could, you could just say like, well, yeah, but I heal up. I'll get over it and we'll go back to, you know, having a beer and talking about sports next week, you know, or whatever it is. But yeah, you're right with these harms that are basically about character or generosity or respect for other people. Yes. An indifference to the possibility of creating grave harm for somebody like those kinds of high stakes violations are really saying something very different about somebody's character. So I don't know if, like where your point of making that distinction falls like relative to the rest of the world or something like that.

21:48But I think you are making the right kind of judgments. I think probably people sit somewhere along that, right? So I think you probably could kind of like imagine people who won't forgive any of them. You're like, I don't know. That doesn't seem like a great way to live. And other people who just will forgive everything. And that seems like a really bad way to live. So maybe your stuckness is some people telling you they want to pull you down. They want you to be down where they are, which is like, you should forgive all of them. And others saying you shouldn't forgive any of them, you know. Yeah, and I don't want to be pulled too far in either direction.

22:28That's right. Yeah. So we probably each, you know, that's probably an interesting individual difference, actually, is like, I don't know what we want to call it, you know, forbearance or harm tolerance or something along those lines. We probably differ in that, you know? So interesting. I eagerly await your paper on those individual differences. Yeah, yeah, it'd be great. I mean, we have looked at a lot of individual differences in people's tendencies to forgive. There's a lot of work on that. But I don't think I've ever thought of it as where you fall along a continuum of kind of severity of harms.

23:04And the frequency too. I mean, both are important. Like, how often are you going to harm me? And on average, how painful are those harms going to be? I think that's a great way to look at it. And yeah, I guess it resonates for me to say, it takes a lot to cross me. And so if you do, you're not coming back. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. Now, the other thing I wanted to ask you about from a personal perspective is last week in our episode, I had a little debate with Beth Polin, one of my favorite apology researchers, about the request for forgiveness and whether it should be made. Will you forgive me? You could also word it as any statement that invites the other person in.

23:47I want to fight you on this one. Okay. Because I think when someone asks for forgiveness, it sounds self-centered. At least it's the way it comes across to me. When someone says to me, will you forgive me or do you forgive me? What I hear them saying is, I'm shifting my attention from the fact that I wronged you to the fact that I want you to absolve me of blame. And to me, it undercuts the apology. Yeah, instead of thinking of it as self-centered, think of it as an invitation, right? You're welcoming the other person in to the trust repair process. And it still is their choice because people can choose to not engage in the trust repair process, right?

24:30We've all heard, you know, I forgive you, but we still need to go our separate ways, right? So you get that forgiveness, but you do not get the full relationship repair. I love this so much because, you know, I've had encounters both on the business end of those kind of requests for forgiveness and probably also on the one delivering them, where you go from, wait a minute, I'm the person suffering here. I'm the one who got harmed by the harm. And now I feel like you're the one that needs to be comforted here because you're so upset by your guilt. So I've experienced the point of view you're bringing, which is, wait a minute, you're apologizing.

25:15Now you're asking me for forgiveness. The fact that I haven't forgiven you is a problem I, the victim, now need to solve. You've made this all about you all of a sudden, you know? Bingo. Yeah. I mean, I know I have made apologies like that, and I know I have received them. And I think that's right. I also understand where Beth is coming from, which is there's something powerful about the meaning. That statement, will you forgive me, or I hope you'll forgive me. It carries surplus meaning that also changes kind of the negotiation process that, you know, the granting of forgiveness is. So, you know, let's go from the first side.

26:04Please forgive me. I feel horrible about what I did. I just wish I could take it back. I feel awful about myself. I know this speaks really poorly of me. You've totally changed the topic. When what we should be talking about is maybe not even like, will you forgive me? But maybe what a lot of victims want, I know this is what a lot of victims want, is I know I harmed you. What can I do to repair it? Maybe the winning combination is I acknowledge it. I agree with your meaning. You are correct in how it speaks about my character. But I think there is another way of understanding my value to you.

26:43And how I want to demonstrate this is by doing the best I can to undo the harms that I committed. I think that's a really nice way to thread the needle, because after talking with Beth, I ended up really conflicted on this. On the one hand, I still have this reaction of, yeah, don't put the burden on the victim to tell the offender, no, no, it's okay, we're good. And the ask can feel too much like a demand. That's right. But on the other hand, I like the idea of the invitation and communicating, our relationship matters to me. And so if I can play back to you your approach, maybe with slightly different words, I can imagine saying to somebody, I would love to earn your forgiveness.

27:30What can I do to repair this relationship? Yes, yes, I like that one. a lot. What can I do to demonstrate to you that I'm somebody you can trust, who can be of value to you going forward, who's unlikely to harm you again in the future?

28:08With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC.

29:05Valid through 714 while supplies last. Selection varies by location. You have the vision for your business. You have the plan. And you just got handed a huge opportunity. But is your business connectivity reliable enough to make a move? Spectrum Business delivers fast, reliable internet, phone, TV, and mobile services. So you're always connected when it matters most. Get connectivity packages built for your business. With savings that keep your budget in check. And with fast, reliable internet and 100 % U.S.-based customer support, you'll stay connected and ready to bring your vision to life. Learn more at spectrum.com slash business.

29:42Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

29:54it seems like a lot of people want to forgive or even offer forgiveness but then struggle to actually do it i mean i think every marriage has gone through some version of like but you you told me you weren't going to bring that up again right or didn't hadn't we already moved past this right And, you know, we see this in all kinds of relationships that, you know, sometimes people, they're like, okay, I want to forgive, but I didn't forget, but I haven't really forgiven. I'm still holding a grudge. How do you get over that kind of grudge if you're struggling to let it go? It's very hard to put a dark line under your accounts and say anything above the line we're not going to talk about anymore.

30:38And that's adaptive. You know, it would be kind of a crazy design for a human mind that you could just simply erase the past and not refer back to it as it's necessary. Yeah, that's why Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind would never happen in real life. That's right. Oh, yeah, what an amazing movie. I know some people really hate it, but I really loved it. Here's the problem. There's no way humans are designed to forget the past, okay? And every time you remember that harm, part of what you're going to remember is the harmfulness of it, unless you've changed the meaning of it in a really deep way.

31:18Because you can change the meaning of it and say that harm marked a really important turning point in our relationship. You know, there's different kinds of meaning you can ascribe to it that would make the harmfulness not be the first thing that comes to consciousness. You know, it's a milestone. This was a watershed for our relationship. It almost killed our relationship, but we got past that stuff. That is such a powerful reframe, a turning point, a crucible. You're right. It changes the way that you look at the past, and it also then gives you a reason not to relitigate it. That's right. I haven't forgotten about it.

31:57What I have done is changed how I have integrated into my sense of self or in the sense of my relationship history, you know? Yeah. Oh, I am all in on this one. This is a great rethinking moment for me. Oh, good. Yeah. For me too. I mean, so many of these questions you're bringing up, I've really never thought of in this way. So this is awesome for me as well. Okay. So maybe zooming out a little bit, this conversation makes me think a lot about cultural differences. What are the most important cultural differences that you think we should be aware of when you think about what a forgiving community or workplace or family or society looks like?

32:37Right. Yeah. There's a million different dimensions you could use to think this through. One would be religious culture. In some versions of religious culture, like interpersonal forgiveness is like the apex thing. The tradition I know the most about would be the Christian tradition where it's like, forgiveness is supposed to be unconditional. It's supposed to be full. It's supposed to be constantly refreshed, but that's like not the only religious view of this thing. You could turn to other traditions are like, no, no, no, no, no. It's all about repentance. I don't want to hear about this, just infinite forgiveness, infinite patience, take anything on the cheek.

33:20I want to see changed behavior. There's also regional cultural differences in how people respond to harms. I was raised in Jacksonville, Florida. And even now in the 21st century, you can still feel the kind of focus on honor and dignity that goes back a long way in Florida history. You know, people have very long memories in the South about harms and slights. And that's probably why there's so much focus on politeness. Oh, fascinating. That's a feature of a culture of honor. I never thought about it that way. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, I think this is right. You know, I don't want to trivialize this.

34:10Like, it's just nice to be nice to people. You know, I don't want to overanalyze because like, I like when people are polite to me. I like being polite, you know? um but bless your heart that's a like i live that i really that's that's that's totally my thing um but there's a way in which you can view it also i mean as a kind of aggression control i mean i think the good news is that you know people who are sort of pathologically unforgiving you know i don't know that there's a lot of them you know i think most of us have kind of set points somewhere in like a favorable place. We're going to forgive a lot of the low stakes harms.

34:47We're going to put you in a penalty box for the moderate harms that you've committed against me. And there will be some kind of, you know, life without parole offenses as well. So, you know, it's getting that mix right. And wherever we set our needle down along that continuum, it's history, it's personality, it's culture. And I wouldn't dream of kind of having the wisdom to tell anybody where they should kind of calibrate to. But too much of either end is probably a bad thing.

35:47This episode was produced by Daphne Chen. Our team includes Brittany Cronin, Constanza Gallardo, Greta Cohn, Grace Rubenstein, Daniela Balarezo, Ban Ban Chang, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Hilash. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our show is mixed by Sarah Bruguere. Original music by Hansdale Sue and Alison Leighton-Brown.

36:23That's the secret purpose of this podcast, right? We just want to motivate more research through talking to the most interesting thinkers I've come across. Well, it's paying off for me, for sure. Thank you.

36:40This episode is sponsored by Toyota. Expression shows up in ways we don't always notice. It's not just what we say, it's the choices we make, the things we surround ourselves with, the way we move through the world. Even something like the car you drive can be a form of expression. Toyota's new all-electric family leans into that idea. The CHR, for example, has a bold, distinctive design, something that stands out a little in a good way. While the BZ and the BZ Woodland each bring their own personality to the table, It's a reminder that the things we use every day don't have to be neutral. They can actually reflect who we are.

37:15Learn more at Toyota.com, the new all-electric family. Toyota, let's go places. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner.

37:54Obsessed. I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart. What do you mean spending it right now? You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get, like earning up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max$100 per month. See terms at venmo.me slash stash terms. Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A.