Sunday Pick: Unlocking Your Power at Work: Kara Swisher on how to get what you want | from Fixable

0:00Kara Swisher: One of my greatest lessons of being a reporter over the many years, and I had lots of scoops and lots of, like, great stories I've written. The biggest lesson I learned was that I used to think, what are they lying to me about? And one of the things I learned, and I think it's really a profound difference in being the better reporter, was what are they lying themselves about? And that's just, that yields every single, like, what do they need to say every day to get through the day that isn't true?

0:32Happy Sunday, y 'all. Elise Hugh here. Today, we're bringing you a Sunday pick where we share an episode of another podcast from TED, handpicked by us for you. No matter where you fall on the corporate food chain, you have power at work. You might just not know how to use it. So today, we're sharing an episode from a new limited series on our podcast, Fixable, called Unlocking Your Power at Work. Hosts Anne and Frances dig into how to discover, build, and use your power. explore common power dynamics in the workplace, and learn from people who use their full power with honesty and swagger. Kara Swisher is one of the most influential voices in media and has built a career holding powerful people accountable.

1:12In this episode, she reflects with Anne and Frances on her own path to power and what she's learned from watching some people become corrupted by it while others learn to wield it for good. She also argues people don't leave jobs early or often enough and makes the case for pursuing more than just the opportunities that are offered. Whatever you're dealing with at work, Fixable is there to help, offering actionable insights to create meaningful change in your life and workplace. Listen to Fixable wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have a problem you want fixed, call their hotline at 234-FIXABLE.

1:46That's 234-349-2253 to leave Anne and Frances a voicemail with your workplace problem. Learn more about Ted's podcasts at podcasts.ted.com. Now on to the episode after a quick break.

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4:19Kara Swisher: Here's how I conduct my career. I'm in a restaurant and they have chicken, pork, or steak. And I want the duck. And she's like, well, they don't have the duck on the menu. And I said, oh, they have the fucking duck.

4:39This is Fixable, a show where we take the problems at work could feel unfixable and prove to everyone and ourselves that they are not. I'm Anne Morris. And I'm Frances Fry. Today, we have something we're really excited to share with our listeners. We are launching a special series about finding your power at work. We hear from a lot of listeners who don't feel powerful in their jobs, but we also observe a lot of people who aren't using the full power they already have. You know, we also hear from people who are reacting to other people's power, so on the receiving end, reacting to the power dynamics in the office, and often they're just unsure how to respond.

5:24Yes. Yeah. I mean, we think about this series as a way to discover and use your real power at work. We're going to dig into how you can identify it, build it, get nice and comfortable with it, and then use your power ultimately for good. You know, we talk a lot about having swagger on this show, which is one of my favorite words. And I think when someone really connects to their full power at work, you can just see it in the way that they carry themselves, how they relate to others. It's infectious. And honestly, it's difficult to look away. Totally. To kick us off, we have a guest who has a whole lot of swagger.

6:05She's built a life and an incredible career around holding the powerful accountable. And she's powerful in her own right. We're talking about the legendary Kara Swisher, one of the most influential voices in media today. And if you are looking for a role model, look no further. She has been reporting on tech since the early 90s. She's worked at the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post. Her memoir, Burn Book, A Tech Love Story, is a New York Times bestseller. She's the host of the podcast, on with Kara Swisher, and of course, the co-host of Pivot. Frances, you know Kara from your Uber days.

6:45For listeners who don't know, you took a sabbatical from Harvard back in 2017 to join Uber as their first Senior Vice President of Leadership and Strategy. Tell me about your first meeting with Kara. What was your impression? whoo, hardcore, definitely speaks truth to power. And she doesn't flinch for a moment in the pursuit of that truth. And all of that was learned over breakfast. In fact, I met her on the way in to my first day at Uber. So I met, they arranged the breakfast meeting with Kara on my way into the office. Just as part of the onboarding. What was the context? Next, I was the I was a person that was coming in.

7:32It was in a very public crisis. And I was a person that was brought in to be helpful during the crisis. I, you know, we had just finished our consulting with them. But this was my first day as a full time employee. And and so I met her on the way in and it, you know, game on. And there's no small talk, like no small talk. It was just sit down and here we go. Here we go. Well, I think this conversation is going to be really fun. So let's bring her in. Kara Swisher, welcome to Fixable. Thank you.

8:09Kara Swisher: I'm excited about the name of this thing. What are we fixing? We're fixing power dynamics today. All right. Okay. All right. This feels like the premise to a joke. Three lesbians walk into a podcast or a brain teaser. Two of them are married. How many lesbians does that leave? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you a fixy person? Do you fix things? I'm a fixer. I'm not a tool belt lesbian. Okay. But we are optimists. Oh, all right. So you're talking about mental fixing. Oh, I don't do that. Yeah. I think you're handier. I am a handy. I'm a handy lesbian. I'm a handy. I do. I love to fix things. So, Kara, this conversation is part of a series we're doing on power and influence.

8:48All right. And we told our producers we wanted a sexy journalist to anchor this series. Who did you get? You were everyone's first choice. All right. You were everyone's first choice. Because I'm looking good.

8:58Kara Swisher: I just worked out. So I look fantastic right now. All right. So before we get into power, we'd love to spend a minute on your story. Okay. In your interview with Marc Maron at the Tribeca Film Festival. Which people can hear on your excellent interview podcast on with Kara Swisher. At what point you say essentially, I don't feel anxiety. I don't. And never have. Yeah. So what are the primary emotions you experience? Give us a day in the life of an emotional life of character. If a dragon was after me, I would feel fear. Like, come on. Or if someone was chasing me with a knife. No one has yet, as yet.

9:35Kara Swisher: And so that's different. But in general, I mean, one of the things when I met my wife, I said I'm not neurotic. I just am not. I just don't have a lot of neur... I don't regret a lot of things. There's one or two small things I regret. Not having more kids was one of them. But not being pregnant again, because I really like being pregnant. I loved being pregnant. I love being pregnant. So that's a regret. But I mean, I'm fine with it also. But anxiety, I just don't have time for it. I just don't. I can't. What are you feeling over the course of a day? Good. I just, good. I feel good, mostly. I mean, some things, you know, I get upset about some small things.

10:13Kara Swisher: And, you know, when I talk, my kids are upset about anything. I feel for them and I try to help them mostly. but I'm usually a can-do lady. Like, I'm like, all right, how are we going to solve this? And I think in a lot of ways, I probably drive my wife crazy because she's, you know, she's a more processor person in general. And I'm like, yeah, okay, we got the problem. Let's go. Like, I always am like, what's the solution? Let's fix it. And so I have that attitude and I was always like that. And I think it's probably largely born out of my dad dying, which I talk about a lot in this series I do.

10:44Kara Swisher: Like, I don't have time for, like, anxiety. And I respect people who have it. I have a lot of friends who have lots of anxiety or worry or neurosis. I just don't, I have never, I feel like I don't have time. And it sounds weird. And I've used this example before. But, you know, when your dad dies or your parent dies at a young age, you know what, you know where it ends, right? You have this idea. And the worst thing ever happens to you. And then you keep going. And so, you know, when something happens, I just can't get upset by it. Like, I can't go, oh, no, not. How old were you? Five. Yeah. I was two.

11:20Kara Swisher: I was two when my father died. Same thing. So it's an expression. There's an expression called The Lost That Is Forever, which is a great book on this topic. But one of the things in this book is that people become highly functional. Like, I'm highly functional. I don't know how else to say it. And I am. And so are my brothers, actually. We're very like, okay, next, now, fix. I get that as a functional response to the experience of growing up with that kind of life. My brother's an emergency room doctor. Like, I think we all channeled it to let's make some progress. Let's make some progress. Yeah.

11:54Kara Swisher: And I think it's just you have a sense of, on a more deeper level, you have a sense of mortality from a very early age. And therefore, you have a sense of time. And I think time is something that people really don't understand. And I do in a way that's profound and helpful, actually, even though it was the worst way to find that out. I would take it back in a second and be anxious. I'd rather have my debt and be anxious than this. Yeah, I'll take anxiety instead. So Kara, as you wrote about in Burn Book, you had a very intimate view of a number of entrepreneurs who went from being awkward young people to the most powerful humans on the planet.

12:33You also watch tech emerge as, you know, one of many important industries to the, you know, number one economic, cultural, social force of our time. What are the lessons and power that you take from watching these transformations, both on the personal level and on a structural level? Well, you know, some people, you know, start off awful and remain awful.

12:57Kara Swisher: but yeah so i met a lot of them or someone like mark cuban who was somewhat of a jerk at the start and now is couldn't be more interesting and delightful yeah um and so people change but usually it's they're like what they were like like mark is very wealthy and he couldn't be mark cuban any lovelier yeah he couldn't be he's not he's polite to people he doesn't lord of people i i just you know a lot of people are like that satya nadella is another person He's the head of Microsoft. He's a very grounded person. Reed Hastings, he ran Netflix. You know, we didn't always agree, but he was a normal person.

13:35Kara Swisher: Ted Sarandos, who runs it. When you look at this bunch, like the people who have handled power well, what do you think, like, what can we learn from that? We're so focused on, like, the motherfuckers. Yeah. But there is this, and you point this out often, which I think is very productive. Like power isn't inherently a bad thing. It can be used for good. People are using it that way. Here's what I think is a bad thing is that if it coalesces in one place, then you inevitably end up with a mad king. Like you inevitably, it just never, I mean, you know, culture and history and fiction is full of this, right?

14:15Kara Swisher: is how people start off innocent, you know, and end up sort of in this twisted way, whether it's like a Howard Hughes who went mentally ill. That was a mental decline, obviously. Very interesting entrepreneur. Some people are the way they are. Like I said, they were like that, kind of a jerk and remain a jerk. They're just a jerk with a lot of money and people agreeing with them. So some people develop and then others um can resist the deleterious impact of that much wealth and what happens is all these people surround you they're yesing you you never know their agenda and they for some reason think that those people are being truthful with them and they manage to isolate truthful people and eliminate them from their diet essentially what's your what's your advice to future tech moguls?

15:06Kara Swisher: Well, it's interesting because my son is tech focused. He's a mechanical engineer. He's at the University of Michigan. And one of the things I thought was important with him is, and he has these interests, is have interests outside of tech because it's such a narrow range of things. I mean, he's obviously good at math and chemistry and physics and, you know, much better than I would ever be. And at the same time, we wanted to make sure he had an interest in history. in, you know, he does glass design, like anything that's not, he does a lot of stuff with his hands because he's a mechanical engineer.

15:40Kara Swisher: But that was one important thing for us to push on him in like the idea of ethics and philosophy and stuff like that. And I wrote a column in the New York Times, right when I had that column there, I wanted to do that for the reason I wanted to get some of these ideas out, which is why aren't there ethics courses required in technology? I think it must 2018, maybe, close to 10 years ago. And I was questioning it. Why isn't there? Why isn't there a real ethics course to talk about it? Because people have enormous power and they should be trained about, again, history, philosophy, public policy, and things like that.

16:17Kara Swisher: I just interviewed Theo Baker, this kid who was at Stanford. It's about the sort of the factory of entrepreneurs. It is a great book. The factory of entrepreneurs there is these VCs rush in like you would college basketball players and grab them for their own uses and spit them out if it doesn't work as they do in sports sometimes and um and don't care about anything but making the money or getting the idea and i think it it creates sort of half formed people um and then pile money and idolatry on them and you get a really bad result yeah um you found ways to build and use a tremendous amount of power yourself, we believe for good.

17:00When you look at your own story through the lens of power, what do you attribute your own path to power to?

17:09Kara Swisher: I would, I wouldn't say a power. I say, I say things, right? A power of words and a power of opinion, essentially. And that's, I guess that's a power in itself. And it's not a power. I thought about this recently. I was like, everyone's like, oh, you don't care at all. You don't give a fuck. I said, actually, I give a big fuck. I said, there's a very big difference. Like, if you don't give a fuck, you have no values, right? But I do. I think it could, like, one of the things, someone said, well, it's good you hate tech. I said, I love tech. I said, you don't understand. I love it. And what they're doing to it is the things tech could do for our society are vast and have been over history, right?

17:46Kara Swisher: And so I feel like a responsibility for it to be deployed in a way that's fair and good for the vast majority of people and to warn of the negative effects and to try to mitigate those negative effects. And so I feel like it's my job to do that now at this point, and to point out all the good things that could happen if only it didn't coalesce around a small group of powerful people. I mean, I'm one of those people who reads history and understands when power coalesces around a small group of heterogeneous people, we're all fucked, essentially, because they're... The pattern is clear. Pattern is clear.

18:24Kara Swisher: Like, again, time and time again in history, that's where history falls apart, as it often does. And so I find, you know, so being well-read and well-versed in history, you can really understand what's happening here very clearly. Yeah.

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20:49We spend a lot of time inside organizations. We see a lot of people in the workplace who don't recognize or use the power they actually have. Yeah, I agree with you. That was never your problem. No. You took up space from a very young age. Very young. You famously talked your way into a job at the Post. I did. You called out John McLaughlin decades before Me Too was a thing. I don't feel you should grab women's boobs without their permission.

21:15Kara Swisher: I feel like that's just a reasonable policy. I don't think so. I don't think so. People were scared, right? What I was always, I know it sounds dumb. I was not very good at math, but I'm very mathematical. And I'm like, okay, what's the actual cost? when you say something. And a lot of people were trained to sort of behave, especially women particularly, like, oh, if I say something, I will pay this. And I'm like, that's like fiction. That's, that's, you don't actually, you pay when you don't say something actually. And so I was, I was always very calculating of like, what's the actual cost of saying the right thing.

21:50Kara Swisher: And in that, in those cases, I wanted a job. I didn't have one. I was, was I like risking not having a job that I didn't have. So I was like, why not? Why not ask for what I want? Like you can say you can declare things, especially in this country where even though there's all manner of nonsense going on and there's a lot of people being quashed, we still have a place where you can make choices compared to like, try being a lady in Syria. Try being, you know, a woman in any of these, you know, in these strict religious countries, like try that and see there's real price to pay there and I don't feel like I have that here did you learn how to do that uh no because my mom's not like that she's like so I'm curious Frances for you because I think you're on this side you're on Kara's side of this spectrum yeah I I look back I've been saying it um I like I could just have the memories of saying the things from when I was able to walk I was the youngest of six kids and I would see you have to speak up yeah yeah I and I would to get fed you would have to speak up yeah but I did feel I think I I learned Karen what you just said that you give a fuck and I wrote down uh you give a capital f fuck seemed to me to not give a small f fuck like you give a fuck on the big thing and then the little thing doesn't perturb you so no fact that I would get screamed at or chased or so I didn't care about that because I gave the capital F.

23:23Kara Swisher: Right, exactly. Like I just, I didn't, I just didn't think there was a cost. I just was like being very clear. I'm very clear headed in that regard. I'm like, okay, what's going to happen if I do? Oh, nothing, like nothing actually. And you know, you can watch, especially men do it all the time. Like they never pay. I'm like, huh, that's it. What if I behave a little bit more like that? And it works. It actually does work because confidence breeds, you know result and you know in our your case i think you're a lot nicer i i you remember the uber stuff but it was you were a lot like people are fixable i'm like yeah they aren't like not that person right and i appreciate that and i do appreciate like i like the sentiment but i pretty much i'm pretty good at clocking people pretty quickly but i will allow them to change i don't if they change i'm very welcoming like i think a lot of people especially on the left are very intolerant of people that change.

24:18Kara Swisher: Like, I start... Yeah, there's not enough room for evolution. Let me ask you both a very dikey question that I think is going to be interesting to three of our listeners. You're both out and proud lesbians. No one is wondering, is she or isn't she? No. But you both make choices that our society would prefer that men make in terms of taking up space without permission, having healthy egos. How do you think that part of your identity, this is for both of you, has impacted your experience of power? Like, is it helpful to be a lesbian with some swagger in a patriarchy? Why, yes, it is. Indeed. Why, yes.

25:03Go ahead. You go first, Frances.

25:04Kara Swisher: You explain the situation. Yeah. So I find that, yeah, the swagger, which I don't know that it would work in a performative way. No, it has to be real. But being deeply comfortable in our own skin, and it wouldn't occur to me to be apologetic about my intellect. It wouldn't occur to me to be apologetic about my body. It just wouldn't occur to me to be apologetic. It's occurring to the rest of us all day, every day. It's interesting. I do get a lot of people coming up to me and saying, you give me courage to say things, right? Because you say them, then I can say them, which I'm fine with. That's great.

25:51Kara Swisher: I think it's more out of, I think I'm like this. It's my nature. You know, it's not something that I have to think about. It's just a natural instinct. I really, it sounds dumb, like someone was like, oh, you really think a lot of yourself. I said, I do. I'm fantastic. I don't know what to tell you. Like, come on. Like, look at the history here. Give me a break. Look at the track record. Look at the track record. So, and this person was like, well, I think that's, you know, I think that's very boastful. I go, it's factual. Like, I don't know what to tell you. It's actually. And so it's really, it's funny.

26:24Kara Swisher: But that's a gender violation. Like, I think that's what makes people uncomfortable. Yeah, it does. I used to tell, when I met my wife, my current wife, Amanda, she said something like that. She goes, you seem very confident, like, as a person. And I said, well, I am beachfront property in Malibu, so I don't know what to tell you. And she looked at me like, you've got to be kidding. I go, that was a joke, but actually it's actually.

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29:03as a role model you are giving women courage and you're you're allowing us to visualize what this looks like do you have any coaching for people listening on taking up more space you have to

29:15Kara Swisher: think about where you are in your life and understand your leverage and i think i say that to people all the time like what's your leverage what's the worst case scenario what what if you do what you want to do? What do we have to pay for things? And I think we don't think about the payment of the actions we take. And so I'm always like, think really hard about if you want to pay that price. It's like buying a car. Do you want to pay that much for the car? Do you know what you'll have to give up if you don't otherwise? So I also try to get people to get a very good sense of what they actually, how they want to live.

29:50Kara Swisher: Is it money? Do you want money? Do you want this? Do you want that? Like to understand what your goals are, right? And I think people don't have enough of their sense of their actual goals of what they want to accomplish. And then I like them to think about, again, what's the worst case scenario? And that is super hard for people to do. Especially women, they never think about their options. And I think about options continually. I mean, I know you guys coach, right? Frances, you coach people on it. One of the most interesting things, this is someone Frances knows, but I'm not going to say who it is but it's a woman who want who was always number two in silicon valley always number two there's always a lot of number two ladies in silicon and they had they were leaving their job and they and i and they said can you come over and i said i'm not really a career counselor but sure because i know all the jobs and i know what's available and they it's a story i've told a lot of young women and i said she said i what do you want to do she said i want to be a ceo i go great that's a really good goal you know clear you want to be a ceo and uh and you know your skills and everything else and and your qualities and i said what do you want to do where do you want to practice this ceo-ship and she said well i've been offered this this this and this right like four or five options which i was like oh great what do you want to what do you want to do and she said well this is interesting i said i didn't ask you that i didn't ask you what choices that you've been offered by people.

31:18Kara Swisher: Like, it's like a woman who got six, you know, marriage offers that you're only judged by the offers that come in. I said, what do you want to do? And she's like, yeah, exactly. And she was like, well, this, and I was like, no, no, that was offered to you. That is a very different thing. You did not seek it out. If you had to seek it out, what would it be? And she goes, well, well, that hasn't been offered to me. Like, and I was like, oh, really interesting. It hasn't been offered to you. So therefore, there's not an option of it. And I said, here's how I conduct my career. I'm in a restaurant and they have chicken, pork or steak.

31:54Kara Swisher: And I want the duck. And she's like, well, they don't have the duck on the menu. And I said, oh, they have the fucking duck. The duck's in the back. And she goes, well, it's not on the menu. I said, oh, it's on the menu. Oh, it's on the menu. It's there. They have the fucking duck. You asked for the duck. And she goes, well, what if it's not there? I said, then go to another fucking restaurant. I don't know what to tell you. If you want duck, have duck. And she thought I was crazy. I was like, eat the duck. And I always send her every, I know. I was like, have the duck. And so I always text her.

32:28Kara Swisher: She is the CEO now. I was like, did you eat the duck? Did you eat the duck? Did you eat the duck? And I was like, that you have to like reformulate. And I think, I will say men do this well. Like, what do I want? Very well. They're very good at what they want. What they want. And I have three sons. I watch it all the time. Let me tell you, especially in I didn't believe in gender dynamics until I had children, because even the four and a half year old, like he is intent and like very much even when they're wrong. I know. I think and I want to test this with you, Kara, if you could, I feel like you would do drive by interventions with people all day long.

33:05I do them.

33:08Kara Swisher: Right now, everyone involved with CBS has called me. And before it was the Washington Post, they're like, we need to talk. Like, I have so many people coming to me for career. I could have a, when they were doing a profile in the New York Times, which was far too nice. They said, we hear you have a side business as a career consultant that you're being paid for. I'm like, paid for? If only. If only. This morning I had a coffee with someone who wanted advice. Like, Like, again, it's like I. Yes, I do it all the time. And I feel very, especially when they're women, I feel the need to do it. And now with the media being in such crisis, they're like, who's the lady who did the media entrepreneurship?

33:47Kara Swisher: I need to talk to her. And I tend to try to take at least a minute after I drop my daughter off at school to give them a minute because I think it's fair because I had a lot of great mentors like Walt Mossberg and many others. And but now it's getting a little much. I'll be honest with you. Sarah, we have a lot of women listen to this show. So will you make some of your private advice public on building a terrific career in this climate? Well, I think one is the risk-taking. I think being a risk-taker is a really important thing. And make calculated risks, but I think people are too safe. I think we're trained to be too safe.

34:22Kara Swisher: And so don't be safe. And there is no safety, by the way. I'm like, they'll come and get you if you don't have... And the other thing is under second thing is understanding the person you are and what you're if you're shy or I not shy. But if you are, you have to know what your attributes are and what you're what you are. And one of the things I recognize is I was a really as I joke about this, a bad employee. I wasn't good at being an employee. I wasn't I wouldn't get in line. I would just like I'm like, I can't I can't do it. I can't get in line. And and I and to put yourself in situations where you're not comfortable is a bad thing.

34:57Kara Swisher: So me working for people is not a good thing for me. And it's not good for them, by the way. I'm not I don't think that's a great thing to be as a bad employee. I also I think once you spend your time griping, I hate that. Like I hate when I start to be like, oh, I hate this place. The minute that happens, I stop and I leave. You have to understand who you are and what you want. And I don't I think a lot of people do not, as I said, with that duck story, they don't know what they want. They never ask that you go from job to job and you roll into one thing and you never think, why am I doing this?

35:28Kara Swisher: Do I like it? And the last thing I do, and I take this cue from Steve Jobs, that speech he gave at Stanford, which is my North Star of a speech, one of the finest speeches about career and life, I think, was amazing. And he was sort of between illnesses. And one of the things that I thought was so moving was that he really did articulate that he said death is the greatest invention of life because that was his motivation. And it was also has been mine. That doesn't have to be your motivation. But, you know, if I have too many days where I say no, where I wake up and I don't want to be there and I say no, I get out.

36:03Kara Swisher: Like that's like I thought that was so often. That's very clean. It is. And you're like and it's hard to do that when you're in a especially you're in a high level or what people consider a really good job. Like I was at the New York Times writing a column. I just didn't want to do it anymore. And one person was like, you don't leave New York Times. I go, yes, you do. Like, you know, and I like them. I think they were great. I had a great thing there, but then I was like, I dreaded doing it. And so I think that you have to - Dread is a very powerful indicator. You know, I was like, oh, I can't do this.

36:35Kara Swisher: I'd rather watch Law and Order. You know, that's always a sign. If I'd rather watch Law and Order, it's like, hmm. And if you have fewer choices, which I, like I was talking to some people that are at 60 Minutes, and they can't leave. There's nowhere else to go, right? Like, that's the issue. And I'm like, listen, sit, like, I could tell you just flounce out and quit, but it's, there's nowhere to go right now. So bide your time, tone your skills, and then figure out where you can go. Like, I don't advise, because they're like, I want to be like you on a flounce item. I'm like, don't flounce. I have flounce power.

37:06Kara Swisher: You do not have flounce power. I can flounce. I can do it. There's no price for me. And it's very minor. The price is minor here. For you, it's big. And you'll be stuck. And so be very careful about how you exit somewhere and how you handle it. But understand your feeling of wanting to go. And I think that's, I think, just be very strategic about how you do that. And I think, you know, I think, but you have to leave if you feel that way. That, to me, we don't do leaving enough. I don't know how you feel. You know, one of the things we've noticed recently is that people who have decided to leave and then they have like a 30 or a 60 day window before they leave are an unfreaking believable version of themselves, an amazing version of themselves.

37:52So I remember Sheryl Sandberg when she said, don't leave before you leave. And so we've been joking, leave before you're going to leave. Like, act like you're leaving so that let's see that version of you. The version in that 60 days when you know you're leaving, where was that? It is. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

38:12Kara Swisher: Because you can make yourself, in a lot of ways, you can make yourself miserable, right? And on some level, I don't like, someone's like, oh, you're so tough. I'm like, I'm the person that's the problem, not the boss. If it's not the job for you, don't blame the job. This is a terrible place to work. I'm like, then leave. What do you want? Oh, they're going to fix it. I'm like, they're not. This is how they like it. this is how they want this place to be. And if you don't like it, get the hell out. Like, I don't know what to tell you. You have no, except if you don't have choices. And in some cases, there's monetary issues, there's family issues, there's healthcare issues.

38:45Kara Swisher: I completely understand that. Two last questions. I know we're out of time. What's one thing our listeners can do this week to become more powerful? Kara Swisher. Tell someone the truth. And tell yourself the truth. That's the harder one. And one of my greatest lessons of being a reporter over the many years, and I had lots of scoops and lots of great stories I've written. The biggest lesson I learned was that I used to think, what are they lying to me about? And one of the things I learned, and I think it's really a profound difference in being the better reporter, was what are they lying themselves about?

39:20Kara Swisher: And that's just that yields every single like what what do they need to say every day to get through the day that isn't true? and often when someone says something to me I tend to try to get them to recognize that they say something to me and I go that's not true and they sort of look at me and I'm like it's just not true what you just said like and I don't mean some like something they say about their life I said we know that's not true and if you say it in a nice way you actually you're peeling the onion that's right what's under that is not what's happening here what's happening here is this And I often, I accompany it with a lot of reporting, so I actually know, right?

40:01Kara Swisher: And I don't want to have to pull that out. But I think if you can get people to the truth, I think that's a really powerful thing. But a lot of people don't like the truth. All right, last question. You can't handle the truth. What are you fixated on currently outside of work? huh what am i fixated on this is going to sound crazy but i want to do i want to i think the phone is so addictive and i love news but one thing i know you need a a escape valve and so we were in we just bought this apartment in brooklyn so we go up there quite a bit and so we were in one of these blicks blick art stores and stuff i i looked over and there was a paint by number set in this place.

40:42Kara Swisher: I know it's weird. And I hadn't seen one of those in years. Like we had them when we were kids. Frances, you remember, you don't remember. Totally. And I bought it and I'm painting by numbers. I was never an artist. I was never the greatest answer I've ever heard. This is the best answer anyone has ever given us. It was amazing. And I'm so happy. I sit there and I paint by the numbers by myself. I don't listen to music. I don't like try to occupy and, you know, debore myself and I just sit there. It's the happiest. It's really happy. It was such a memory. Beautiful. Best answer ever. Thank you.

41:16Kara Swisher, you're a rock star. Thank you for coming on the show.

41:22If you're enjoying this show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

41:35Fixable is a podcast brought to you by Ted and Pushkin Industries It's hosted by me, Anne Morris And me, Frances Fry This episode was produced by Trina Menino Our team includes Constanza Gallardo Banban Chang Daniela Baloreso And Roxanne Heilash Our show is mixed by Louis at Story Yard

42:07Kara Swisher: This episode is sponsored by Ashby. Every talk you hear on this show started as an idea, and every idea that actually gets built needs a team. Today's sponsor, Ashby, is the software that supports hiring for those ambitious teams. Ashby is the all-in-one recruiting platform used by the teams at Lovable, Notion, Plaid, and Clay. If you wish that AI could help you move faster through scheduling and scorecards, that you could find that silver medalist candidate from 18 months ago in a few seconds, or that you had better visibility into the state of your candidate pipeline, Ashby is for you. See why over 80 % of Forbes' top AI companies choose Ashby to hire the best talent.

42:46Kara Swisher: and visit www.ashbhq.com slash TED.

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