Why is it so hard for men to open up? A journalist and an entrepreneur answer | Joshua Johnson and Blake Mycoskie

0:03You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. We're back with the next episode of our original series, TED Intersections. The show features unscripted conversations between experts navigating the ideas shaping our world. Today's social entrepreneur, Blake Mikoski, and radio host, Joshua Johnson, sit down to talk about something a lot of us are feeling right now. That real face-to-face connection is getting harder to come by, especially for men, many of whom, they note, are lonelier than ever and unsure how to talk to one another.

0:40The easiest thing is to invite someone to coffee and ask them about their life. It's much easier if someone has gone first. That's Blake. Across the conversation, he and Joshua trade stories that are surprisingly raw about fathers, about friendship, and about learning, sometimes the hard way, what the people in our lives really don't need. I think my father was unable to really process being a dad beyond being a provider. But I don't need what you can provide for me. I need you. They get into how to actually have a deeper conversation. why asking a good question might be the most powerful thing you can do, and the small daily ritual that changed how Blake's family talks to one another.

1:23That's coming up right after a short break.

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3:49And now, our TED Conversation of the Day. Going through life with a willingness to ask more questions than you make statements, liberating. Nothing that happens after the question is your responsibility. Your responsibility is have the curiosity, the integrity, the thoughtfulness, and the humility to ask what's on your mind and not bite your tongue because, well, it might be uncomfortable. Well, what are they going to say? Let that be their problem.

4:33What if we shuffle the deck? I'm fine with it. All right. OK. Deck duly shuffled. OK, you go first now. All right. So I can own what I've done? Yeah, exactly. All right, first question. Are we losing the ability to have real conversations? Hmm. I don't think so, actually. I think that with everything that's going on from a technical perspective, We are, at least in my friend group, I'm finding that people are yearning for more and more intimacy, vulnerability, you know, dinner parties. Like I'm feeling a pendulum shift back because I feel like people have been so digitally focused for so long.

5:17And no, I don't feel that way at all. I get that. And I think the pendulum is definitely shifting. I guess when I read this, the editor in me is like, well, what do you mean by real? Yeah. So I think for some folks, just being able to text you when they're freaking out and just have that little human conversation is real. Connectively, because it sort of paves the way for more open conversation. Some people aren't ready to have the eye-to-eye, face-to-face conversation. But they could chat you up all day on WhatsApp. And that's about as real as they can get. And I don't know, but I suspect some people kind of need to be walked from digital and virtual into real world, into real space, real time.

6:10And maybe that's what's a real conversation for them, kind of pulls them towards something else. Yeah. And I was just thinking, I'm probably more exposed to that because most of the work I do is in mental health now. And so most of the people I'm talking to is about their mental health and they're opening up about their mental health journeys. And so I'm kind of predisposed to a lot of very vulnerable, very honest, very raw conversations, probably more than the general population. I imagine that some people start to have those conversations, their capacity for it grows and maybe their desire for it.

6:46Like once you get the benefit of like, oh, that's what that was, then you want more of it. Right. You want more of it and you find a facility with it. For liability purposes, I'm going to start with a gentle swish and flick. Okay. Okay, this is good. So many men feel lonelier than ever and don't know how to talk to one another. Where do they start?

7:12I think that they might have to start inward. Because if you're not comfortable saying, hey, man, I'm not sure how to connect to other people, that's a level of exposure I'm not sure some guys are ready for if you're already struggling to connect to other people. I think for some men, maybe that first conversation needs to be in the mirror and be like, look, this is what my life is. There's no use kidding myself. Here's where I really am. This is what's happening. This is what my social life is like. This is what my romantic life is like. This is how I see myself, this is what I actually want, and figure out if I had more connection, what would that mean to me?

7:54What would a perfect day in my life look like if I had the connections I wanted? Rather than just, well, you should reach out more. You should be more connected. Why? To what end? I think a lot of guys that I know anyway rebel against that because they're not sure like when you're done. Like when does, when do I know if this works? Just kind of sitting in the discomfort and like, okay, am I, am I social now? Like, am I human now? It just feels too fuzzy. So maybe the first thing they need to do is get it clear in here so that they have a sense of agency. When they're asked to go do something, they can go, that's not really what I'm looking for and mean it as opposed to do that.

8:36Like my goal is to make this change in my life. that would look this way, and that doesn't seem like it meets this goal, so I'm going to pass." A little more actively than just being kind of like blown sideways through, you should be more social for socializing sake. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I was thinking of it just like a more very practical tip. If someone is lonely and they don't know how to talk to another man, I think the easiest thing is to invite someone to coffee and ask them about their life. because I find that if someone is hesitant or scared or doesn't know how to be vulnerable with another man, it's much easier if someone has gone first.

9:20And so, but if you really are feeling the need to do that, then by inviting someone to coffee, ideally someone that you have been close to before, and you're saying, hey, I just want to check in. How is everything going in your life? That guy is most likely going to share, and then that will make it easier for then you to share. So I think it's a very much, I guess I'm going to this question and it's much more practical. Someone's watching this right now. They're like, man, I feel like I don't have any good guy friends anymore. I don't feel like I'm connected to my buddies at all. And actually I have a short little story about this, which is interesting is I was on my way home for Thanksgiving and I went home and I was at the time, gosh, it was 19 years ago.

10:02So I was like 29, 30 years old. And I said, Dad, after Thanksgiving, can we go into the study and I want to interview you about your life? My dad was like, okay. And we were close. And so I asked my dad all these questions about his life, and it was just a great experience. But at the end, I asked him that final question. I said, Dad, I said, what is your, if you have any regrets? And he said, Blake, he said, I do have one regret. I said, okay, what is it? He says, look, your mom and I have had this beautiful marriage for now 37 years. You, your sister, and your brother have turned out great. You're all doing different things and following your passion.

10:38I've had a great, you know, I've loved my medical practice and helping people. But over the years, I really lost touch with all my guy friends. You know, all my friends from college, all my friends from medical school. You know, I always just said no to the, you know, the weekend golf guys trips or the this or that because I was just so busy with you and your mom and my work. and now you guys are in college or out of the house. You know, I'm now getting close to retirement and I love your mom, but I can't spend every moment with her. And so I don't really have anyone to hang out with and I'm lonely.

11:12And he said, so don't make that mistake. And so at that time, I was 30 years old. I just started Tom's Shoes. We were like two years old. And I wrote an email to my seven best friends, a couple of them for like college, some were from newer friends in LA. And I said, I told him the story and I said, we can't have this happen to us. Let's do an annual trip every year. And so we started our first trip 19 years ago, and we're going to have our 20th anniversary. Where'd you go? Where was the first trip? The first trip was a camping and fishing trip in Colorado. And we've done one trip every single year for 19 years.

11:47The group is now 14 guys. We call it the Rugged Adventure Club. It was rugged, and then when I sold Tom's, it became not so rugged. Right. We started going to the Maldives and all these places. You can't call it like the guys who glam. Yeah, exactly. But I bring that up because, you know, that group has taught me how to have really meaningful, deep relationships with men, which has had probably as big of an impact on my mental health as anything else. I love that story because your dad had the presence of mind and the willingness to be vulnerable with his regrets. Can I tell you my version of that story?

12:31Sure. I'm here for it. My father passed away last year and was ill for a very long time. His health declined, declined, declined, declined for years. And he and I were really quite estranged. The estrangement, he and my mother divorced when I was five. The estrangement deepened after I came out. And so it was just kind of like a process. And my father was a Jehovah's Witness. So it was just like one thing after another. Eventually, I kind of felt convicted. And I was like, I need to keep trying to reach out. And I tried to reach out and tried to reach out. Finally, kind of in the last year of his life, he was really not doing well.

13:06And I thought, I need to like make time to fly home to Florida. And just sit down and talk to the guy. and I said, Dad, I want to do your oral history. I feel like I don't know you. Wow. Like not really know you. Yeah. Made a special trip, planned the whole thing. Dad, are we still going to do this? Yep, I'll see you in three days. Okay, cool. Flew down, checked in the hotel, got up the next day, went to visit my mom. Dad, are we still in the... Yep, I'll see you. Two days. Another day. Dad, are we... Yep, tomorrow. Do it. The morning comes and I call him. Okay, Dad, I'm ready to go. When should I come meet you?

13:44you know, we've got time. I don't want you to put yourself out and, like, I'm not really feeling up to it. Like, don't worry about it, but we've got time. It's like, Dad, I booked a flight for you. I bought equipment. Like, I'm ready to do this now. You know what? Next time you come down, let me know. We'll do it then. We've got time. Oh, no. And in that moment, I decided, I'm done. I'm not going to ask anymore. I don't know what it was, but I think my father was unable to really process being a dad beyond being a provider. And that human connection of like, this is how to be a man. This is how to be a black man.

14:36Never quite clicked for him. even after I became a storyteller. He knew I was a journalist, very proud of my work, but couldn't quite get like, no, I don't need what you can provide for me. I need you. And when he passed, I was supposed to like write his obit. Still haven't. Yeah. Because I don't know what to write. Mm.

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16:57Okay, so this question's great. I'm assuming it's the one we're already having, but you tell me. What's the most transformational conversation you've ever had? Oh, God. I had so many. I mean, I was an interviewer for a living, so I've had way too many. I think the biggest collection of transformational conversations I ever had was when I was a national host on NPR. I got to interview Eric Holder, the former U.S. Attorney General under Barack Obama. And I was really excited to interview him because it was one of the first, like, people of his echelon that I had ever talked to. I was really excited.

17:32But then after a while, like, I could kind of hear my goofy family in the background. Because we're not highfalutin. We're not fancy people. Very together. But not like we don't put on airs and attitudes. And something about it felt weird. Especially because I wasn't thinking anything about the guest after him. It was nobody famous. And so I decided to, like, okay, I'm just going to talk to him like he's any other guest. Invite him in. How's it going? Have a seat. Make comfortable. Very personable guy. Easy to talk to. Segment starts. Break comes. His assistant comes in to remind him, sir, we're going to leave halfway through the next segment.

18:10We're going to play music, and he was going to be able to slip out of the studio. He looks over his shoulder at his assistant and is like, I think we can stay a few more minutes. Extended the interview on the spot because he was having a good time. Yeah, yeah. And I was, you know, smelling myself for a second. I'm like, that's right. I'd extend it with me, too. But then after it was over, I thought like, dang, I made the right choice. And from that, I kind of reframed the way that I deal with just about everybody. I mean, if you were going to treat every person you will ever meet for the rest of your life exactly the same, how would you treat them?

18:55That's what that taught me, is to be one person, to set one standard. Raised or lowered, some people you're going to embrace and some people are going to drive you up the wall. But it sort of made every interview that followed easier because I didn't have to calibrate myself. I could – it's like conversation no longer depended on anything around me. It depended on everything within me. Like I know who I am as a person. I know what my values are. I know how I want to be treated. That rule is golden for a reason. And I decided that's who I'm going to be. And if we don't vibe, that's cool. If we do, that's fine.

19:32But it just, it made life so much easier. And it made the work easier. Like, this is me. Oh, we don't click. Okay, cool. That's cool. You get to be you, I get to be me, and we figure it out somewhere along the way. And through all of the ups and downs of talking to all kinds of different people, that was just like, it just greased the wheels for the next three years of that work. It was, I'm amazed I thought of it. I didn't know I was that bright. I'm glad I had that burst of insight because it made life so much simpler. So much simpler. I love that. I love that. Okay, so for me, what's the most transformational conversation you've ever had?

20:13It actually happened about a year ago with my kids. And I have an 11-year-old and an 8-year-old and also a 31-year-old adopted son. But this was with the biological kids. And they had seen and experienced me having a really hard mental health crisis for about two years. I was in and out of treatment centers. I wasn't able to kind of be there for them in the way that I was before. It was a really hard time. And then I started feeling better. I had some amazing healing experiences, especially around this core wound of not feeling enough. And as I started feeling better, they could tell it was really different.

20:55And now I'm spending a lot more time with them. And the conversation I had with them is one day my son said something about, like, what's different? And, you know, kind of like, well, how do we know you're not going to feel bad again type thing? Like he was worried. I said, Summit, because now I know that I'm enough just as I am. Not because of what I've done, not because of what I've built, not because of what everyone thinks of me, but just because I exist. And now that I know that, I think my life will always be different. And I saw him like, look, and it was the coolest thing because I then continued the conversation and that extends to you and your sister too.

21:36You guys are enough exactly as you are. You can try out for the water polo team. You can try to make good grades. You can try to do these things. But none of that is tied to your worth. I love you and your mom loves you and the world loves you. And they always will just because you exist. And ever since then, I've seen a lightness in my kids and a connection in us that is so deep, so peaceful. and so much that at dinner every night now, we had this little ritual where we hold hands. And my eight-year-old, we start with the youngest first, and she says, I am enough, and looks around. And then she looks at us and goes, you are enough.

22:18And she goes, and we are enough. And then the next child does it, and then I do it. And that all came from that conversation. And I hadn't even thought about that until this, yeah. But it was one of the probably the most important conversations of my life. Two questions I have to ask on that. When you said you saw lightness in your kid, was there anything in particular that you were concerned about getting heavy for them? Like were there certain aspects of growing up that you thought they needed that message for? I think when someone does not feel enough, which I didn't for 48 years of my life, then I think you subconsciously project that onto others and especially parents to kids.

22:56So if a parent doesn't feel enough and doesn't have their own sense of worth outside of their accomplishments, then you're projecting that pressure onto the kid. So I think my son was feeling like he had to become a great water polo player or had to be the star of the basketball team or had to make great grades or had to look a certain way because I felt that about myself. And so I never said that to him. You don't have to say it. But I didn't have to say it. But as soon as I felt that I was enough and I said that to them, then I saw him reduce the pressure he was putting on himself. And my daughter still, I think, has some more to grow in that because I still think she puts a lot of pressure on herself still.

23:34I mean, she's only eight. But I have seen that when we do the ritual at dinner, there's like a twinkle in their eye. There's a smile. There's like, yeah, I am enough. And it's something, it's a practice. It's not something like, oh, I experienced it once and now I have it forever. It's something that you have to continue to practice every day. You know, that's why I wear the bracelets, like my reminder every day to come back to this centering. But that conversation with the kids, I think, will be one that I'm willing to bet any amount of money, if they're sitting in these chairs someday, that at least my son would say that was probably the most meaningful conversation.

24:10I see you have two of those bracelets. And I feel like when you said enough, I kind of— You know what I have, too? Why? You'll see. So one of my favorite things to do, it's not about wearing it yourself. It's about giving it to someone else. So I always wear an extra one. Oh. So if I ever feel like, okay, this is something I want to share with someone, which I do right now, I can give it. So hold out your hands. Palm up. Oh. There you go. And this says, you are enough on the inside. Oh, wow. And then, now you have one too. I love it. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you so much. When I saw this, I kind of saw this with a period and also with an exclamation point.

24:49It can be both? Like enough as sort of a checkpoint. Boundary, yeah. Or enough. I'm enough, yeah. Like a relief almost. It's interesting you bring that up because I originally made it, we hand make them, these women in India make them. And that's where I had a bunch of my healing. And originally it was more the I am enough, a softness. but I also think in the climate that we live in today, there's something also that's a real activist spirit. So it's like enough. And almost even like I think of people who sometimes have been told their life that they're not smart enough or pretty enough or that they're going to amount to enough.

25:34It's almost like a fuck you. All the people who said you couldn't do it, that you are enough. And you don't need their validation. It's the daily double. No. If you could redesign how people connect with each other, where would you start?

25:54If I could read— Wait, you went somewhere. Where did you go? This is exactly where I went. I went to Avatar. I knew there was something specific. And Pandora. And if you've watched Avatar, when the Avatar gets on the horse and they plug in the hair— Yeah. So that's where I went. Where they kind of like... Yeah. So I was like, if I could design any way to connect, there'd be some way that like when we shook hands, I transferred part of my consciousness to you. And so we connected in a nonverbal way. And we could have conversation through touch without having to use our words. That's where I just went.

26:38But you know, I get it. I get it. I knew you saw something specific. I could see your eyes moving behind your eyebrows. If I could redesign how people connect, I would make it an educational prerequisite. I would put it in the schools because that's within our power. I would put listening, communication, and critical thinking as a high school graduation requirement. I would make it a common core standard. I would put it in the common core. I think that, you know, especially because when you're little, like, kids got great questions. yeah kids are are built in like question asker yeah you know idea fine routers and they're heuristic learning machines they just love to like they will they'll pepper you with a million questions but that's exactly where like as a living thing your first job is to connect the first thing a baby does is connect with its mother yeah and so like connection is our lifeblood and i think if you start real young i mean i did speech debate in middle of high school best skill set i ever learned more than much as I use math and science, writing, social studies, the best skill set I ever learned was how to communicate with other people because that's how you connect every piece of the social crisis we see with young people and computers and AI and TikTok.

27:56It all comes back to human connection. They're trying to connect, but you can't do it 14 seconds at a time. You've got to sort of invest in it. And I think kids are sort of crying out for it. They know something's wrong. They know that their parents and grandparents did not go through this, but they don't know why they have to. They're aware of what's happening. And I think, frankly, are already starting to get a little scared about it. I read a study last week that said Gen Z is saving for retirement at higher rates than baby boomers did at their age. So they are aware the world is not built for them right now.

28:32And they're going to want to find solace in one another. I think if we teach kids to do it, they'll stick to it. They'll learn what like appropriate conversations are, listening, investing in people, even eye contact. Like even just something as simple as like you and me being able to like look at each other and have the conversation and not feel like, you know, we're either staring each other down or like waiting for one of our heads to explode. That skill set for kids is just, it revolutionizes what it's like to grow up and to become a citizen of the world. I would start by making it a common core standard and making it a high school requirement in schools.

29:13That's great. I love that. So the last question today is, what are some tips you have to help others have deeper conversations? That is a perfect question to end on. I shuffled the deck and it landed the right way. You're welcome. Tips to have deeper conversations? Yes. I would get really good at asking questions. And I'll give you one example. I used to be in public radio. And when I started to get on the air and people noticed me, they would, it happened over and over. Oh, you're Joshua Johnson. I never would have guessed you were black. Tall. I never would have thought you were so tall. You sound three foot nine on the radio.

29:52Happened over and over. And it used to make me crazy. And I finally figured out a simple two-word response. that changed everything. Not those two words. When they would say, I never would have guessed you were black, my response was, why not? And pause. And don't say anything. That's one of my tips is gonna be, be very comfortable with silence. Well, and here's the thing. What I finally learned was, there's nothing I can say to you that will hurt more than what you will say to yourself. And when they reflect back to themselves why they actually said that. And they went, oh my God, I'm sorry. And I can say, it's okay.

30:33But now you know, and now you can decide if that's the person you want to be. But it's not my problem anymore. It's your problem. And that gave me peace. I could let it go. I didn't have to walk through life like, I can't believe these white people, the way they treat us, we ain't never gonna ride. And I didn't have to, like, it was like babies don't sleep that well. And I think the right question, plus the confidence to stand on the question and just let it sit, whatever the response is. And so going through life with a willingness to ask more questions than you make statements, liberating. Nothing that happens after the question is your responsibility.

31:15Your responsibility is have the curiosity, the integrity, the perspicacity, the thoughtfulness, and the humility to ask what's on your mind and not bite your tongue because, well, it might be uncomfortable. Well, what are they going to say? Let that be their problem. I have a question for you. Is it okay if I ask? Or did you just need to be heard? Is it okay if I put this out there or is now not the good time? Okay, sure, ask. Say it. And then stand on it. Makes life much, much easier. Okay, great. I think that deep conversations require time. I think that if you really want to have a deep conversation, you need to have undistracted time.

32:00And it's kind of a little bit of what you said around ask a question and then be comfortable being silent because it's in the pause where the depth can come out. And I think that so much of our conversations with people, the reason why they're not deep is because we're always pressed for time and our attention is always scattered. And so in order to have deep conversations, that's why I love hosting this podcast now because I know that the person has set aside two hours. And I might only have an hour's worth of questions for them. But I'm not in any rush. And so when I ask the question, I have plenty of time to allow them to go deeper.

32:44And then often also what you said I liked is like asking a clarifying question around the first question. So not just jumping to the next question, but then asking a question that helps them go deeper and then sitting and having the time. So I guess it really is about making sure that there's enough time for the person to go deep. Blake, thank you, sir. Thank you so much. Good talking to you. Yep, awesome.

33:13That was a conversation between Blake McCoskey and Joshua Johnson for our original series, TED Intersections. Visit TED.com to watch this conversation and others from the series. If you're curious about TED's curation, visit TED.com slash curation guidelines. And that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is a podcast from TED. This episode was fact-checked by the TED Research Team and produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Lucy Little, Emma Taubner, and Tansika Sungmarnivong. Additional support from Daniela Ballarezzo, Christopher Faze-Bogan, Valentina Bohanini, Banban Chang, Brian Green, and Lainey Lott.

33:54Learn more at podcasts.ted.com. I am Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feet. Thanks for listening.

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