A songwriting battle with my AI clone | with Jason "Poo Bear" Boyd, Elise Hu

0:06You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. In this fast-changing age of AI technologies, where do we find and hold on to the human soul? For me, and for many, music is a uniquely powerful window into that soul. It's ancient and new, global and intimate, and exists in nearly every place on Earth. It feels inexplicably human. And yet AI tools are getting better and better at making music. Will there come a time when AI can move people in a more soulful way than human-made music can? And what would that mean?

0:49To find out, I sat down with songwriter and producer Jason Pooh Bear Boyd, whose melodies you've certainly heard from his collaborations with Justin Bieber, Usher, Ed Sheeran, The Rolling Stones, and more. We explored what makes us human and how we can protect that even while embracing AI tools. And in true Pooh Bear fashion, he doesn't just tell us his thoughts. He shows us in a live musical exercise that left us feeling like the human soul is safe after all. I can't wait for you to hear this. Enjoy.

1:34I'm the kind of brother who's been doing it my way, getting my way for years. And my career and every love of y 'all. And in my life, I hit love and left in tears without a care. Until I met this girl who turned the tables around Caught me by surprise I never thought I'd be the one breaking down I can't figure it out I'm so caught up Got me feeling that caught up I don't know what it is But it seems she's got me twisted I'm so caught up, really feeling it. Caught up, I'm losing control. This girl's got to hold on me. Thank you very much for your birthday. That was incredible. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

2:46What a treat. it was so great to be able to hear you in this theater like the acoustics are you satisfied they did an amazing job the acoustics are killer yeah okay we're so glad oh that was just so moving i wish we could get a whole show from you oh man maybe one day okay standing invitation yes before we get into the innovation part of this conversation i just want to ask you what to you makes a great song? To me, a great song is a frequency that is simple but effective. So simple enough for a child to be able to remember and sing along with, but effective enough to fire off neurons in a brilliant mind.

3:31Okay, so do you just feel that? I feel it. Lots and lots of years of trial and error and just having this balance of simple and effectiveness. how, especially you mentioned lots and lots of years, technology is constantly changing. It's been improving your entire career, our entire adult lives. How have you, if you could just take us through, increasingly integrated digital technology into your work and your creativity? God, so I've been, actually started off at my first success, my first record in the 90s. So I was working on the reel-to-reel, eight ads, and it evolved into Pro Tools. and that's when the digital era and if you didn't really evolve into that you kind of were left behind and every year they've just added on cool plugins and things to help save time because time is the most valuable part of our lives so you know I think Pro Tools to Auto Tune all these things that were they always hate on it at first and then you realize that it's only been created to help us Do you consider yourself an early adopter?

4:36Like when your friends or other producers introduce you to a new thing? Are you like, great, I'm just going to go all in? Or are you more skeptical and you kind of watch first? I like both. I got watched a little bit. But once I used it and I understood that, we're all being programmed by perfection. And that comes from the digital help. So I had to incorporate it. And it just helps save time. And it helps for people to enjoy the music as well. Is there any tool over the course of your career that you wished you were sort of faster to jump on? I would probably say AI, honestly. Yeah, I would say AI.

5:18Okay. How are you feeling right now about AI's growth in the creative industries? I feel like once again, it's a tool that I feel like is absolutely going to be necessary. It's in the beginning of it. And I feel like there's kinks that need to be worked out, like everything in life. but I also, I understand the importance of it now. You know, at first I saw a lot of people using it around me and I was like, I didn't want to feel like lesser of my, I didn't want to think lesser of myself for using it. Yeah. But, you know, even now I understand like, okay, I could probably use that. I could probably ask AI a question and it can give me a cool answer.

5:56Okay, because I know about Zero, about producing a song or producing music. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit just practically about how AI is being used, or AI tools, I should say, just not like AI broadly, but AI tools are being used in your work, in your line of work? Okay, so in my world, there's some people that are kind of completely relying on it, which I'm not gonna knock it, but for me, it's just, you know, throwing out concepts or ideas. Not so much, I haven't really integrated musically as far, because I still believe in the soul aspect of creating chords and having chords that we love.

6:38But I also use it if I have a question about something that I want to write about, I'll ask it, and it'll give me a quick answer and things that I probably would have to research a lot harder if AI didn't exist. So essentially you can use it as a starting point or you have a starting point. You're like, hey, this is a musical phrase or here's a chord I really like or tell me yeah kind of walk me through like I haven't integrated the music part but more so you know just different questions um I love making songs that are questions um so not so much the the you know the chords or I still believe in being able to I'm not the greatest musician but being able to find chords that I love with somebody that is amazing at playing chords and be able to say oh I love that or do a different second chord um but more so like just concepts and new ideas and it's just so much that hasn't been written about and running it through AI and making sure that that it like I'm not creating something that already has been created already which is important in the copyright world yeah for sure that's already hard to avoid without AI correct yeah do you feel like um and I guess we're gonna I feel like I'm teasing what's coming ahead.

7:54But do you feel as though there's still something ineffable about the human soul that gets worked into music that AI can't quite touch? Yeah, you know, the AI can't, I don't feel like it'll ever be able to quantify the human soul, you know, and I just feel like that's something, because AI is basically a math equation that kind of, you know, you have this formula and it equals certain things. I just feel like one day in the future, I won't say that it won't come close to the human soul, but I don't think it'll ever be able to emulate the human soul and being able to, you know, affect people's emotions the way that the human soul does.

8:38You know, it's just being, just living, you know, for me to be able to create something and it comes from a real place. AI has never been, had its heart broken, you know. AI's never been in love sure so it's like those things that you know there of course there will be a math equation that equals to heart equals up to heartbreak or love or something like that but i don't think like actually going through it like the fact that as humans we go through these real emotions yeah um i just don't think it'll ever be able to completely quantify it does it matter that we can't that soon i mean i know you can probably detect the difference right between artificial music and that which was created?

9:20Kind of shorter. Yeah. Cause it's kind of just not great yet. So when I, so when I hear something, I'm like, that sounds like AI. Cause I wouldn't know. But to be fair, there's also really bad pop songs that are written by humans. It's the end of the end. There's a lot of bad pop music. Correct. Yeah. Yep. Does it matter though? Do you think that to the audiences or to the industry, I guess, wait, I'm answering my own question because it would matter to the industry because if it gets cheaper to write music what happens to the artists yeah the artists you know I feel like the artists are safe um I feel like more for creatives um just once they figure out all the new laws around the copyrights and stuff um you know songwriters up-and-coming songwriters I feel like there's certain people who make music and they have a sound.

10:09And a lot of people, when they come to work with you, they're coming for that very specific sound that comes from years and years of programming frequencies into the universe by having a lot of radio success. So I do feel like for up-and-coming songwriters and producers that don't have that sound yet, I do feel like it's going to become more difficult for them to be able to, because they'll be battling AI, literally. Yeah, and you mentioned regulation. Regulation famously is so many years behind how technology is developing. Are there certain guardrails or what would be certain guardrails that you would like to see to protect creatives and creative work?

10:51You know, that's a great question. Just being able to protect the creatives that have spent a lot of time, a lot of years investing in creating a sound just for AI not to be able to completely rip off our everything and take it and be like, oh, we'll just do our own Pooh Bear style song and pull from a thousand Pooh Bear different hits and create this new Pooh Bear sound. So yes, I feel like the laws I feel like should encompass protecting the creative. So being able to detect and hear a song and say, you know what? That song didn't really come from the source that we think is coming from. So I'm not sure.

11:38I'm sure that somebody has me thinking of this to be able to scan the music and be able to say, oh, that's artificial. and at the same time somehow be able to protect the creators that they're pulling from somehow. You also kind of nodded to this already. What happens to the pipeline? You know, you're talking about musicians being able to create a certain sound who are really tied to whatever they, what is distinct about them. I mean, I'm thinking of film directors who are similar as well. Like when you see a Wes Anderson movie, you know it's a Wes Anderson movie. So what happens to the future directors, the future musicians, whose distinct eye or distinct sound hasn't been really out in the world or found an audience?

12:24Yes, it hasn't programmed. I really, that's the part that's scary. Like I look at it like it's exciting and scary at the same time. Because I love the time factor to be able to save time and be able to just prompt AI and say, make this movie or make this record. but I do feel like I'm afraid for the new uping the directors the the um the creatives just because there's really no way to to really stop it from happening it's inevitable you know so it's like how do we get out in front of it and and and we're able to still incorporate like include it but still be able to have a sound or build a future sound like for those new artists and new directors that haven't had any hits yet, still be able to use it as a tool, but still be able to build and develop a sound for themselves or a visual for themselves.

13:15Can you give us a peek behind the curtain? Because you are friends with so many producers, so many people at the top of industry. What kind of conversations around this are happening right now? Because as you mentioned, the cow is kind of already out of the barn. Sorry, I'm just always with my Texas references, but you know. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, you know, all my friends, they're kind of like, they're using it like no different than Pro Tools or like Auto Tune. It's like just using it for very niche things, you know, or like, oh, make this sound sound more like, or make me a trumpet sound combined with a violin to create this new instrument that doesn't exist.

13:55Like cool things, but not to where it becomes the whole entire piece of art, you know? Is this any different than, say, like when digital synthesizers were first on the market and first came out? You know, they were also capable of making new sounds. AI is obviously, you know, exponentially more stronger and faster and all of those things. But it sounds like the conversations around it are similar, right? When you go back to the 80s, when they started making the drum machines and the new keyboards, the moods, you know. So yes, we got to a place to where it was so exciting. We just stopped hearing like authentic, real instrumentation for a while.

14:38Like even the most amazing like, you know, musicians like Stevie Wonder, they got into, you know, using. The guitar. Is that what it's called? Like the keyboard guitar? It's a keytar. A lot of keytar. Yeah, it was like, wait, you know, they kind of forgot about. But then you realize that it always circles back around to the authenticity of like real instrumentation. But people just get excited. Like it's very similar to AI. It was like, oh, wow, we don't really have to think or do anything. We don't have to work. But then it comes a place where, you know, you miss it and you miss that analog sound.

15:12You miss the warmth and the human, the soul factor. Do you think there's going to be kind of a backlash or a return to more analog sound or even that like tangible media storage of yesteryear? What do you predict? I predict the circle. It's an inevitable, inevitable circle that happens to where this new, you know, technology comes out. Everybody goes crazy over it. And then you just naturally start to miss, you know, that sting that gave you butterflies, you know, that real human being, the soul factor. And I think it's just a matter of time. I do feel like, you know, AI is inevitable, you know, but I also feel like we're going to see a lot of artists that, you know, are going to be relying on it that ultimately have to go back to really performing and doing real live instrumentation.

16:07I think that's really important. This live instrumentation question, I'm so glad you brought up because it's so special to be here at TED, to get to hear you perform just now, to have these experiences that are in real life. Yes. Gen Z, Gen Alpha, they're very into in real life get togethers and convenings, largely because they were starved of that as they were coming of age during the pandemic. But live music is so expensive. Yes. I am finding that it is so much, it's like out of reach for so many people, especially young people, to go to concerts these days. Yes. How will we get together? How will we get to have these kinds of experiences where we are gathering and enjoying live music and enjoying sort of the beauty of the craft?

16:56That's a great question. So I feel like people are going to understand that there's ways to integrate concerts that's not based on, purely based on ticket sales or merch. I feel like there's going to be ways. That would be a dream. There's going to be ways. And I'm, like, actually working on it. We've been testing some concerts, like smaller concerts. But having brands, brands come in and say, you know what? I'm going to pay the artist. I'm going to pay for everything. and we're going to give a free concert and then see where that money that those bands might have spent on a ticket or really just on a ticket.

17:37Maybe they'll have a little bit more money to spend on a hoodie, you know? So I think there's going to be cool new ways to give those experiences for free, but still people will be able to generate money, but just in another way. Yeah, I'd love to see that. Are there examples that you're seeing of a return to either analog production, analog music, analog shows? I think the examples are just, you know, if you do look at the concerts, the amount of money, the revenue that's being made, it still continues to grow. You know, it's getting more and more. And I think that is because people do want to have that experience.

18:19You know, I think there's, you can go to a, you can go to a movie, you can go and you can watch anything at home. And I think because of COVID, I think everybody just got so sick of having to watch stuff on their TVs or laptops that once the world opened back up, like all the music, like all the shows went through the roof because everybody was just so excited to be amongst each other and feel everybody's energy and frequency in the room. And I don't think we can really, you know, get that. You can have your VR set on and still, like, be lonely and be alone, you know? So I think that the concert, like, the actual live performance aspect of music, I think it's going to get even, like, it's going to get bigger and better.

19:04And I think that, you know, the revenue is going to continue to skyrocket. We just have to find a way to incentivize. incentivize the concert so that they become free experiences where people still can make money and it makes sense for everybody. Okay. We've talked about live performances. Yes. And we're a little early to this, but I want to get to it because I'm so excited about what we're about to try. This is a next stage first. Y 'all, we're going to enjoy a songwriting battle, but it's not between me and you thank god i thought i was battling you okay okay it's not going to be between two musicians even it is between poo bear legendary music producer and a machine well not really a machine i guess an ai tool yes called sudo yes suno yes it's called suno and just to be clear suno is a versatile tool yes but as with all generative ai tools this is my disclaimer to all y 'all um as As with all generative AI tools, the legalities for usage are still catching up to the technology.

20:12So do your own homework on there. Pooh Bear, do you want to set up what you're about to do? I would love to set up. Okay, fantastic. I will leave the stage so that Pooh Bear can do this challenge because you don't need me for this. Oh, man. I thought you were staying. All right. Yes. Great questions. Crush that. So first I want to say happy birthday to everybody because I feel like everybody should have a birthday every day. I don't feel like we should wait. You know, you're like, my birthday's in three weeks. Ooh, I can't wait. I feel like when you wake up, you should be like, ooh, it's an amazing day.

20:48I can't wait for the day. So happy birthday to everybody. That's a whole work, TED Talk. Happy birthday. Yeah, so this is, I'm excited to be here. this process, something I don't even think I ever dreamed of doing this. So it was like, I can say it's beyond my wildest dreams. That's Sasha, also my partner, hit maker, producer, done a lot of records, you know, as well. So we're actually, I'm going to battle Suno, the digital version of myself. So I'm going to get some concepts from you guys. You know, you guys are going to actually kind of help me write this song a little bit. You know what I'm saying?

21:31Maybe there's some publishing to give out somehow. I don't know, maybe like 1 % or something like that. It could be life-changing. And from there, I'm going to create a hook and a post hook. And then we're going to prompt Suno and say, once I get the concept, Hey, make a Pooh Bear style hook, post hook, with a song with the three chord progressions. And we're going to see, once we listen, which one moves you guys the most, honestly. You know, and if Sino beats me, it's totally fine. I'm okay with it, you know. So, how are we looking, Sasha? Looking good. Looking good. Yes, sir. Okay, so, yeah, so first we're going to find a nice three chord progression.

22:31There you go. I hear you and then I don't. May I hear you again? There it is. I love that. Okay, now, concepts. Can I get, yes, innovative ideas. Broke but not broken. broke but not broken that's deep yeah wait wait can i get somebody from over can i get a concept from anybody over here say it again wise voice but voiceless these are like you guys graduated from harvard in here this is this is heavy can i get some little weight some less intelligent concepts for all right wait let's go to middle school starting over ninja turtles i'm gonna go with starting over i was that close from doing a ninja turtle you almost had me so starting over just need to we're gonna record one loop real quick let's record the loop here we go yeah Yeah.

23:36That's good.

23:42So starting over, I like to make. Hello, hello, hello. There we go. Starting over. So I believe in making hooks that are questions, but like rhetorical questions that we kind of know the answer to. so you say starting over and i'm gonna say should we be starting over all right oh we're able to to loop get a baby loop of that right there is a mic on yeah okay am i double mic right now is just a it's more like i'm stacking myself without trying okay now so my first step would be to come up with a melody.

24:41Okay, okay, okay. And then I will stop and I will say, oh, let's do it one more time. I got it. So this is really how it happens in the recording studio, guys. This is like real life. I like that, but I wasn't really feeling it. So now I'm going to try one more time.

24:59Okay.

25:04Should we be starting over?

25:10Starting over. Okay. All right. So we got that. I like that first. I like that. Everybody's okay with that first line? Wait, wait. Yeah, you know, you guys don't have to clap yet. Wait, because it's going to be way too much clapping. We got like... I don't want you guys to be clapped out. You know what I'm saying? Or you can play that back. Should we be starting over? Okay. Starting over. Okay. Then I'll go again. Now let's do it. So now let's punch right after that. Starting over. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Starting over. Keep it going. Let's go. Let's go. Should we be starting over?

26:01Ooh. Should we be starting over? Okay. Let's check that out. You can start it right back there too, just to hear, like, really close. Yeah. Let's go. Let's go. Should we be starting over? Mm-hmm. Oh, should we be starting over? Oh, can I get that? Can I push that last one? Yes, sir. Should we be starting over? Oh, should we be starting over? Nice. Cool. All right. So we got that. That's the first half of the hook. And then we'll get you to say.

26:44Oh, should we be starting over? Mm-hmm. Cause I don't want to be let down You don't want to be let down Okay, stop Okay, let's listen back to that Cause I don't want to be let down You don't want to be let down Okay, stop

27:25Should we take the time and turn his love around? Okay. Let's hear that back. I'm thinking of this. It's real time. This is tough, guys. And everybody's looking at me.

27:42Should we take the time and turn his love around? Who should we start over? Who should we be starting over?

27:57Let's hear that. Come on. AI's in trouble. I don't know, man. I know Suno's in there, like the digital version of Poogey's in there, like warming up, doing push-ups right now. Like, yeah, like, yeah, Shadow Bossa. Yeah.

28:16You don't want to be let down. Should we take the time and turn this love around? Who should we start over? Who should we be starting over? Yeah. Okay, I accept that. So now, that's the hook, right? So that's the chorus. And now I'm going to do a post hook. And this will be the part that will be the chant kind of like. So let's do. Let's see what happens.

29:15Okay, that might work. Let's listen.

29:31I'm gonna forget that.

29:37Let's punch after that. This is after the second line. Yeah, after the second. Yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Should we start over? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Okay. Let's hear that back. The post-up.

30:10Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh Yeah, yeah, yeah Should we startin' over? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh Yeah, okay, alright That's my hook, that's it But we're not even gonna play that back yet, so now we prompt Let's prompt it Pooh Bear, give me a hook Should we be starting over? Three quarters. This is it, guys. I'm a little nervous a little bit. I'm sweating on the inside. I know you can't see my sweat. All right. And I'm battling generating. Watch this. It's going to be way quicker than what I just did. And this is the digital version of myself. What do you think? Eight seconds. I'm gonna put it on five, four, three, two, one.

31:24Well, I did press play. It's ready. Okay. See, this is why AI, you know, you can't... Exactly, exactly. He's letting us down right now. Oh. Should we be starting over Chasing what we lost in the clover The cracks are wide but the heart's still sober Oh, should we try Oh

32:01Should we try

32:06Okay, we're just having some internet problem. Okay when the echoes don't lie. Oh

32:16Should we try So we'll be starting

32:26Oh.

32:30Okay. All right. Okay. All right. That was the digital version of myself. I'm not sure if it made a lot of sense, but it's okay. So now can we play back the pooper human soul experience? Okay.

32:56Should we be starting over?

33:02Starting over? This is my goal. Should we be starting over? Should we be starting over? Cause I don't want to be let down You don't want to be let down Should we take the time and turn this love around? Should we start over? Should we be starting over?

33:48Should we be starting over?

33:58Okay. Sorry about the internet not having it. But okay. So I'll let you guys decide which one. The human pool bear. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And that's my exercise. I hope this proves that we still, we're going to always need human soul, but we will be able to use Suno. We will be able, we should be able to adapt. We have to adapt. So let's not count it out, but let's incorporate human soul forever. Alright, happy birthday. Pooh Bear! Pooh Bear, everybody!

34:44That was Jason Pooh Bear Boyd in conversation with me, Elise Hugh, at TED Next 2025. If you're curious about TED's curation, find out more at ted.com slash curation guidelines. And that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This talk was fact-checked by the TED Research Team and produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, and Tonsika Sungmarnivong. This episode was mixed by Christopher Faze-Bogan. Additional support from Emma Taubner and Daniela Balarezo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed.

35:20Thanks for listening.