Beyond the Talk: Lei Cheng on the value of freedom

0:06You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. Freedom is a flower. It needs to be nurtured with water and sunlight and thoughtful care. It's not a given that it will grow or survive all on its own. Journalist Lei Cheng knows this firsthand. For more than three years, Lei was imprisoned by China on false accusations of supplying state secrets overseas. Today, she has a simple but powerful message. You have to tend to your freedom, and it can't be taken for granted. After Lei's talk, Lakshi and I sat down to think about freedom in theory and in practice.

0:45We also talk about the role of journalism in helping preserve our freedoms in an increasingly turbulent world.

0:57Well, Lake, congrats on your TED Talk. We're getting you just off the TED stage. How are you feeling now that it's done? I'm very energized by the reception. and it's very empowering to have lost my voice, my identity, lost everything for so long.

1:28I love TED. And I love our line-up of awesome speakers who all have years of experience on their subjects. My talk is about what I didn't have for a long time. And as Claire told you, I received free accommodation from the Chinese government for over three years for so-called leaking state secrets overseas at the worst time for Australia-China relations. And the first phase was called RSDL, Chinese spelling for hell. then in detention, the sort that makes jail seem like Ibiza. And it was through that ordeal, call it the wonder diet, that I realised freedom is wasted on the free. Let me explain.

2:25You can be paralysed by choice. You can't comprehend the vastness or the preciousness. So how do you make freedom count? when you're lucky enough to have it. To start, what it felt like to be not free. And then to reclaim a lot of that, and in fact, with the TED audience, to magnify not just my voice, but that of others wrongfully incarcerated in China and in other countries, and to tell people that even while China seduces with sophistication of technology and seemingly stable prosperity, that there are these dark corners in which repression and torture take place. And I would love for people to take a nuanced approach to my story as opposed to, oh, my God, that is so awful.

3:22China is evil. Don't go to China. Bash the nearest Chinese person you see. That would be the exact opposite of what I want to see. I want people to understand that at the same time we call that abuse out, we can still appreciate Chinese culture and Chinese industriousness and creativity. Would you ever go to China again? It's a bit like asking a domestic violence victim whether I'd go to sleep with the husband who kidnapped me for three years again. But my stock answer to this, this is the most asked question. And to be honest, I used to find it a bit strange why people ask it. But yes, if I felt safe enough.

4:04And yes, if I felt welcome enough. And right now, they're still making up lies about me on the Chinese internet. And safety-wise, certainly not. Because what I'm saying today is going to be held as a breach. That'll be another round. Yeah, espionage law. Yeah, that'll be some other round. Let's talk about your beginnings, because we are both journalists. I'd love to know why you wanted to get into journalism in the first place. I'd always liked writing as a lonely, only child and fugly teenager. It was my escape, my therapy. And I always liked to know what was happening in the world and to tell other people about it.

4:44But I was actually five years as a bored, unfulfilled accountant before I made the brave switch to journalism. Oh, wow. So you had a completely different career and then pivoted. Yes. How did you pivot? Did you study? Did you go to school? Or did you just kind of get a job in journalism? Tell us a little bit about your career pivot. Out of parental pressure, I studied commerce and became an accountant. But I hated what I was doing and wanted to use my bilingual skills. I'd always enjoyed being that medium between two worlds. And when I saw a job for a business analyst in eastern China, This was back in year 2000 when China had just joined the WTO and it really wanted to globalize.

5:31I jumped at the chance and once there, I saw firsthand how state-owned companies were operated, that is, with very little accountability and transparency. And then I saw another opportunity at then what was known as CCTV9, which was the English channel of the state broadcaster. and got my start there. But a year and a half later was approached by CNBC to become their China correspondent. So that was how I got into TV journalism. Amazing, and we're glad that you did. I wasn't glad for a little while. Of course not. Of course not. Your talk centers around this notion of freedom. I'd love to know how you thought about freedom before being incarcerated and how you're thinking about it now.

6:21I didn't think about freedom because I enjoyed it. That being said, growing up with first-generation immigrant parents in Australia, I'd always known that in China they had taken away a lot of freedoms for years. Your parents, they came up during the Cultural Revolution, I assume? But the family went to Australia in 1985, so it was already years into the reform and opening up process. And even then, I saw the crackdown that came in Tiananmen Square in 1989. And I'd always known that China wanted to keep freedom of speech and protest and all that because it wanted to control the people. And the propaganda is that it wants a stable society that's good for everyone.

7:20But it's also very condescending and patriarchal to say that we know what's good for everyone. And when I went back to China to work, I thought I was helping with the change to liberalization. that telling what was happening in China to a global audience and vice versa was helping everyone understand each other. Instead, you ran into a buzzsaw. It sounds like, obviously, bring that back to your time being incarcerated too, because this is what really crystallized for you, this notion of freedom, right? And then led to some of the ideas in your talk. When do you feel like that evolution was really evident to you and how are you internalizing and living this notion of being free now?

8:12I guess as I alluded to in the talk I marvel at every little freedom that we have because for three years and two months it was all brutally taken away from me so I see like when I lost my mobile phone in the uber about two months after i was released after the initial panic i had such a wonderful thought at least i have a phone to lose now yeah so what's annoying what's frustrating is a privilege when we die we won't have any of this pain yeah so to embrace pain change discomfort to have that inner zen at all times like right now if there was a natural disaster or if there was war i think i could still draw on that terrible experience and be able to create be able to help others and feel free yeah you bring up war i'd love to talk a little bit about the concept of defending freedom?

9:25Because governments all over the world are spending millions, billions, trillions of dollars on defense and their militaries. What do you think about that concept, the notion that the state needs to come in and defend the idea of freedom for its citizens? I think that's a fraught concept. And it can be abused in so many ways. I prefer to think of these grand ideas as concrete little steps that we can all practice day to day. Because some of the best freedom fighters in the world can suddenly turn into dictators once they gain power. and that's because they know how to shut down all the other freedom fighters.

10:21Right. And for me it's more important to respect others' thoughts, opinions, as long as they don't incite hate. Yeah. And it's more important for me to show kindness. Yeah. Even with people who may try to hurt me. Given the fact that the Chinese state did try to hurt you, are there any guardrails now or any guardrails that you give yourself in terms of what you can and cannot say about the Chinese government? Well, they're so easily offended. If you say one thing or ten things, it doesn't really matter. Right. So you're just like, oh, let her rip. And the other thing is, if I am to be afraid of and to be shut down, that is actually a compliment.

11:15It means that... You're paying attention. Yes, and that I am influencing people.

11:27You talked about this already a little bit, but what would you say is your vision, your affirmative vision? for collectively building a freer future? I think we should all keep top of mind the value and cost of freedom. Sometimes it's very easy to see glossy facades of countries like China. Yeah. But you don't realize the cost of that glossiness. Yeah. As I know, a lot of influencers saying, oh, look at China. It's great. And all of that is true. But if you only show that part of China, it's wrong. Do you think that we confuse, especially in this highly visual, highly consumerist society, do you think that we confuse consumer choice for freedom?

12:25I think we do. And in a way, the more choice you have, the less freedom you have. Ooh, say more. Yeah, say more about this. So if you're paralyzed by choice or if you are constricted by this array of availability, then you're not really thinking for yourself. You're just a slave to more masters. Yeah. And then obviously there's architects of our choices too, right? Absolutely. Whoever's behind the brands or the manufacturers or the industry. So always think about why am I thinking and feeling this way? Is this me? And too many choices stop that conversation from happening. Right. And who does it benefit?

13:14Yeah. Well, given the way that the internet has balkanized us or has become a bunch of echo chambers and the growing nationalism and authoritarianism that we are seeing around the world, so not just in Asia, but also here in the West, what role do you think journalists should be playing in this moment for the globe? Certainly not polarizing views. I wish more centrists could be braver. And I wish media organizations didn't have to make the tough choice between survival and clickbait. clickbait. Yeah. So the economic incentives are all off. We're also just seeing, as a result of failure of a lot of these business models behind journalism, just so many organizations or independent news organizations having to close up shop.

14:16Is that the case in Australia? Are there responses that you like to this problem of the media implosion? This is a subject that many journalists in Australia and other countries talk about with increasing sense of depression. Right. Because it is happening everywhere and where we might, but we aren't quite seeing media savviness take place in our consumers and whether they then follow with their wallets and attention is another thing. Yeah. But we have to keep at it. One accurate and nuanced article at a time and through meeting and fostering trust between us and our readers, viewers, anyone we meet.

15:15All right, you talk about how you learned that the mind can often be our greatest prison. So what advice do you have for people who are feeling stuck? Stuck between speaking? Imprisoning themselves, yeah, with their own thoughts or their own notions of what their lives are supposed to be. I think they should do as much as possible because nobody is telling them not to, to think as far out as they can because they're not in my parents' era during the culture revolution during which they had to report to the great leader every day their thoughts and have their diaries raided. So we have all these freedoms that we don't exercise.

16:04And please don't wait until you're sitting in a prison cell like I was or on your deathbed and not even to know what you missed. That would be a tragedy greater than any other. We have some rapid fire questions, a lightning round, so you don't have to overthink it. And it's just a quick word association or whatever comes to your mind first. And it's a way for us to get to know you beyond your talk specifically. All right. What does innovation or a good idea look or feel like to you? spark love it what's something new that you brought into your life in 2025 that didn't exist before dating apps oh i want to hear more have you see now i have to ask a follow-up are there different dating apps in australia than there are in the u.s and canada i think they tend to be fairly international okay major ones okay but in terms of the people you find there you'll probably find some local yeah flavors okay Vegemite uh no I always think I when I when I think of Australia I'm always like Tim Tams oh yes that's yes Vegemite and I'm like I have a taste for Tim Tams but not Vegemite okay what are you hoping to leave behind this year book your book yes actually a play oh i'm working on a play how exciting are you learning to write a play versus a book or a script that you've written before we're making it up as we go and love the creative process great all right off the ted stage what is a fun talent skill or hobby that you have that you love so much that you could give another TED Talk just about that?

18:02Food. Ooh, any specific kind of food? From someone who was deprived of any choice for a long time, I tend to just love everything. Everything is delicious. Yes. I'm really maximizing my meals at the food trucks because they're open for several hours. That's right. If you have a strategy, you can really hit all of them within the five hours. I like the way you think. I have all the buffet hacks. Just come to me. Yes, please. What is your most treasured memory? Singing in the cell. That's really lovely. Kind of bittersweet, of course. And what would constitute a perfect day for you? A day filled with food and cooking, going to a produce market, playing some soccer, making up skits with my children, writing, and listening to all sorts of music, and hugs and kisses.

19:10Wow, you really thought about this. I love it. I guess you had a lot of time to figure out what you valued the most. Also, if I just said sex, you might not make it to the final cut. Yes. Then you don't get to enjoy all the other things. All right, what are you worried about and what's giving you hope? I'm worried about my kids not learning how to communicate interpersonally. but I'm also hopeful that they might be a new generation of thinkers and communicators and innovators that we can't imagine right now. Last question. What's kind of a small gratitude? I know you're grateful for many things.

20:02What is a small gratitude that you have in your life right now? Like a little specific thing that you're really grateful for? Flowers. and spring in Vancouver, my God, with all that rain, your flowers are just absolutely gorgeous. And at TED, every table centerpiece is magnificent. So lovely. And I had no plants for over three years, so. Yes. I look at them all the time and touch them. Beautiful. Lei Cheng, thank you so much. Thank you.

20:36That was Lei Cheng in conversation with me, Elise Hu, at TED 2025. You can check out Lay's talk on the TED Talks Daily feed or at TED.com. And that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced by Lucy Little and edited by Alejandra Salazar. This episode was recorded by Rich Amies and Dave Pulmer of Field Trip, production support from Daniela Ballarezzo and Shu Han Hu. The TED Talks Daily team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, and Tansika Sangmarnevang. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.