Sunday Pick: How do you approach gender as a parent? (with LB Hannahs) | How to Be a Better Human

0:06Hey, TED Talks Daily listeners, I'm Elise Hu. Today, we have an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective, handpicked by us for you. Today's the first day of LGBTQ Pride Month in the U.S. To kick it off, we're sharing an episode from How to Be a Better Human, featuring LB Hannas, a genderqueer parent. Thinking and talking about gender is complex for anyone, and for some people, it's a frequent conversation, especially for parents. LB speaks with host Chris Duffy about why it's important for them to center authenticity and gender-expansive thinking into the way they live their lives with their children, their community, and beyond.

0:46How to Be a Better Human is a show that looks in unexpected places for new ways to improve our lives and show up for one another. If you want to hear more insights from experts like LB Hannas, listen to How to Be a Better Human wherever you get your podcasts. Learn about the TED Audio Collective at audiocollective.ted.com.

1:09You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Today on the show, we're going to talk about parenting and self-expression with Dr. LB Hannes. LB knows how to connect with kids not only from their own experience as a dad, but also from working as a diversity educator and running an LGBTQ center at a university. In their professional life, LB is often working with organizations, helping them to become more inclusive from the top down. But then in their personal life with their own kids, LB is experiencing all the ways, big and small, that society thinks about gender and parenting.

1:42And all of that is to say that I am thrilled to talk to someone as thoughtful as LB about the ways that all of us can broaden ideas about what parenting looks like, how it works, and how to teach kids healthy self-expression on all fronts. To get started, here's a clip from LB's talk at TEDxUF. So the other morning, I went to the grocery store, and an employee greeted me with a, good morning, sir, can I help you with anything? I said, no thanks, I'm good. The person smiled, and we went our separate ways, I grabbed Cheerios, and I left the grocery store, and I went through the drive-thru of a local coffee shop.

2:16And after I placed my order, the voice on the other end said, thank you, ma 'am, drive right around. Now, in the span of less than an hour, I was understood both as a sir and as a ma 'am. But for me, neither of these people are wrong, but they're also not completely right. So more specifically, I identify as genderqueer. And now there are lots of ways to experience being genderqueer, but for me, that means I don't really identify as a man or a woman. I feel in between and sometimes outside of this gender binary. And being outside of this gender binary means that sometimes I get sir-ed and ma 'am-ed in the span of less than an hour when I'm out doing everyday things like getting Cheerios.

2:51But this in-between land is where I'm most comfortable. This space where I can be both a sir and a ma 'am feels the most right and the most authentic. But it doesn't mean that these interactions aren't uncomfortable. Trust me, the discomfort can range from minor annoyance to feeling physically unsafe, like the time at a bar in college when a bouncer physically removed me by the back of the neck and threw me out of a woman's restroom. But for me, authenticity doesn't mean comfortable. It means managing and negotiating the discomfort of everyday life, even at times when it's unsafe. And it wasn't until my experience as a trans person collided with my new identity as a parent that I understood the depth of my vulnerabilities and how they were preventing me from being my most authentic self.

3:32We're gonna be back with more from LB after this quick break. Don't go anywhere.

3:46Okay, we are back. And today on the show, we're talking about parenting authentically and how to create space for the full range of human complexity. My name is LB Hannes. When I'm being fancy, I'm Dr. L.B. Hannes. I am a researcher and a diversity, equity, inclusion practitioner during the day, and I parent and survive pandemics at night. So let's talk a little bit about some of what you discuss in your TEDx talk. You talk about balancing these conflicting desires for ease in your everyday life versus authenticity in your interpersonal interactions. How does that play out for you in a given day?

4:22Oh, my goodness. I feel like there's no more present thread in my life writ large when it comes to my gender experience or parenting experience. Every parent can probably empathize with like, all right, am I going to do the thing that's going to make this human learn from this experience or am I just going to let that one go? You know, it's always a balance of ease or what's right. And I don't want to like reduce it to this binary of like there's always a black and white. This is right or this is wrong and this is easy and this is hard because it's not. But in the span of a day or the span of a week or a span of a chapter of your life, what's the ratio of choosing what's easier for me or what's hard?

5:02And really being reflective about making sure that you're living in your values. Sometimes the easy route is not living in your values, whether it's at a personal level or at a kind of larger social level. And so that theme around choosing easy versus authentic is pretty frequent for me. and trying to instill that process in kids as well to think about what's the easier route here, but what's right for you as a growing into yourself person. And then what's right for the larger, either family or collective or the larger right thing to do. Did you always know that you wanted to be a parent? I think so.

5:38I grew up as the oldest of a large family and as many older kids do, we take on a lot of parental duties and I love kids and I love babies. So I think it was, while I wasn't always conscious that I wanted kids until I met a person I wanted to have kids with and this was like, yeah, let's do this. But I think so. It was there was never a I definitely not. There's never a journey of no to yes. It was. Yeah, probably. And then it became yes. I know that for some people who don't conform to gender standards that like it can be a little bit fraught because there is this big question of like, are you going to be the mom?

6:13Are you going to be the dad? What are you going to get called? How are you going to deal with these things? And you talk about that a lot in your talk and also in your other writing. So how did you navigate that world? And how did you come up with something that worked for you? Yeah, I thought a lot about it. And it's partially like, as all of us as gendered people do this, some of us do it more consciously. And some of us have an easier time than others around putting on the words or the literal clothes that feel right to us. It's about putting on this clothes and like, oh, this feels right. this word.

6:45Let me try this word out for a while. You know, so in a past life, I was a lesbian. In a past life, I was bisexual. In a past life, I was butch. And then the language I use now is genderqueer and queer. And so I just tried stuff out. I did a lot of thinking. I did a lot of feeling. I did a lot of processing with the people in my life and my partner at the time and looking at the possibilities out there. And I'm not going to lie. I was like, all right, I'm going to go with daddy or dad. And it didn't feel like super comfortable right away. It was something that I had to like sit with and get used to.

7:20Not that it felt uncomfortable from a gender perspective, but in the beginning I was like, oh, this is new. And it's not only new to me, but it's new to everybody else. It was like, you get a great pair of shoes that looks great and you know, they're going to be great, but you just got to break them in. And I feel like I broke in being called daddy because your kids don't call you that for like a year. Like everybody, all the adults are calling me daddy or calling me mom and I had to correct them. And then once your kids start calling it, I'm like, okay, now this is what it's supposed to be. This is the pair of shoes that just like, like feel like your foot in the shoe is the same thing.

7:58And then they grow up and become teenagers and start calling me dad. And then I'm going to have to get used to them dropping the softer part of that, calling me dad. So, yeah. Well, it's also interesting to me because like, obviously, when you start with a baby, right, it's a it's a blank slate. There is no like they're not pre-programmed to say certain words. You teach them everything from the beginnings of phonemes to the all the way to what they mean and how to put them together. And I think sometimes sometimes, especially for people who are cisgender heterosexual couples, it can just feel like, well, that's just natural.

8:30That's just nature. And I think something that's very important to remember for not just raising kids, but for being humans is that these things are not natural, right? They're creations and we can choose which ones work for us and which ones don't. Exactly. Everybody chooses. Everybody chooses. Some people consciously do it or some people just like some of us are forced into going against the stream because of who we are and how we show up in the world. And some of us are choosing just to go along with the stream. But it's still a choice. It's just not a conscious one for cisgender heterosexual folks.

9:03for just you're just you're you've stepped on the added colleague that would talk about the like moving sidewalk you step you made the choice to step into it and you're just riding that out and you're choosing not to think not to do anything different yeah it's interesting because one of the things that i think happens a lot is the color conversation of like pink and blue and i really liked this quote that you had about how at first you were like i'm gonna tone down and eliminate like femininity and masculinity, I'm going to like cut out all the gendering in the parenting. But then as you did that, you kind of realized that the default in the society we live in is if you don't do any gendering, it just becomes all masculine because that's what the absence of gender is in our society as the default.

9:48So you had to kind of reevaluate, like, how do you actually raise kids without having them be stuck in a paradigm where like they blue is only for boys and pink is only for girls and all the other problems that come with that. Yeah, that that is the challenge. And, you know, my partner at the time and she's my co-parent still was really instrumental in helping me understand that, too, as kind of a collective understanding that we needed to be more intentional about the abundance of gender rather than the removal of gender options. And that's really kind of this. I think sometimes particularly folks that aren't in the kind of like conversation are aware of kind of the movement around gender and gender expression and trans and multiple expressions of gender is that the goal here is not to like take away and make everything homogenous it's to be expansive about gender a lot of trans advocates and educators talk about this it's like we just want more options to match the complexity of humans and then what we want to get rid of is all the harmful rules and consequences for breaking those rules because gender is part expression.

10:55And we want more of that, not less. And so part of that is allowing femininity and masculinity and its many iterations to be what it is. So how do you do that in with your own kids? How do you do that? Yeah, I mean, since the talk I had, we had another kid, and then there's a third in the mix with our other co-parent. And it's a daily practice. This is the thing I want if there's advice for being a better human is around like, being aware of gender and thinking about the consequences of gender is a daily practice, because it's all in the nuance. I was talking with a friend this weekend around how the the devils and the details around how how am I going to mess up my kid and thinking about that but like so for example she was talking about having an experience that her parents think that they she and her brother were raised pretty egalitarian equitably and we were thinking about how she was socialized to capture all her thoughts and things in a diary, but we don't necessarily encourage little boys to keep diaries and be expressive in their emotion.

11:59That's not a common practice. I can't tell you how many diaries people have bought for my daughter. Nobody has bought a diary for my son, including me. He has a diary, but it's because his sister was like, I have a diary. He should have a diary. But that is a nuance and a significant practice. And like, why are we encouraging little girls to be expressive and in their emotions and writing them down and getting them out. But we don't encourage our little boys to be expressive and have diaries and write down how they're feeling and what's going on for them in their daily life. It's in the details.

12:31It's in the everyday practice. And so that's part of it, giving them language, not being reactive to things that other folks might be reactive to and really thinking about that everyday practice of what explicit or implicit messages of support or not? Am I giving around gender? It's exhausting. I'm not going to lie. And some days I'm like, I'm not going to do this. I guess fine. But yeah, more people need to do more of that. Well, I think that's that same balance, right? Between like ease and authenticity. You can't be working 100 % at the time and kids are a 100 % at the time job. So you have to pick your battles in some senses.

13:09For sure. I'm curious to think of a little bit more about that, like question of picking the battles, because I'm not a parent, but I have a lot of friends who are parents and obviously I have parents myself. And something that is very clear is that there's the stuff that you do and that you talk to your own kids about and the values you try and impart. And then there's the things that they pick up from the world and from the people around them. And I think one of the challenges that a lot of people I know really struggle with is what to do when your kids are picking up things from the world around them that are not what you want.

13:43not the messages you want them to be learning. Yeah, I mean, that's real. And it's a kind of constant battle, to be honest, right? Like part of what we're transitioning now, because my kids are getting older and going to school and coming out of the pandemic is, how are they managing other people's interpretation of my gender? So a kid comes up, she, you know, my daughter, I'm her daddy and I'm daddy to everybody in her life. But she's already, she's only in first grade, gotten kids being like, that's not your daddy, That's a girl. That can't be your daddy. And how do we make space for her reality being shut down in first grade?

14:22How do I empower her to stand up for herself, stand up for me, but also not put all of the weight of her standing up for me on her? Because that's a burden and a weight that no kid should have to carry. but the imbalances the cards are kind of stacked against trans folks in particular around representation we watch a lot of tv and movies and the kids use the word boy girl for me now because their ability to comprehend like gender queer and trans in terms of like this big kind of theoretical language it's not there yet so i've always been a boy girl to them boy girl boy girl there's no boy girls in kids shows there's there's no gender fluid parents on tv There's no versions of a family like ours at their fingertips to have it be reflected or be able to connect with other kids.

15:12They're not. Other kids aren't seeing our family reflected in what they watch. And so it's pretty constant and having to remind them and empower them and make them feel like they don't feel that like they're not any different or that's not like that's less than. But it's it's pretty constant. So I have a couple of questions about that. One is, I think there is this idea, which has certainly now become kind of coded language, and it's fraught of like the idea that talking about some of this stuff is not, and I'm putting this in very much in quotes, age appropriate, right? But for your kids, how could it not be age appropriate, right?

15:51It's like this is their life. And if the other kids in their class haven't ever heard about it, then they're the ones who have to educate their peers on how can they possibly do that when they're in kindergarten. And so that's one of the obvious problems with people who say like these are issues that kids shouldn't have to talk about until they're in college or until they're dating or whatever the line that they draw is. Right. And how can they possibly be educated when the adults around them are not? You know, I love my my daughter's teacher. I'm very happy with our school, but they still call me and say, you know, is this Elliot's mom?

16:25And I'm like, no, LB, dad, I wrote it in the paperwork. And it's, and not granted all power to the educators out there and the administrators, like it's COVID, they're surviving, they're making it work. And at the same time, the adults that are supposed to be in charge of helping kids through these kinds of things are educated. So like, I can't put on the expectation of young kids when their adults don't even know. And I think that's just a testament to the vacuum of collective consciousness around trans people out in the world. I think I've been doing this work for 10 or 15 years now, and I have seen progress and improvement in people's understanding that trans people exist.

17:02But the kind of they they're aware, but then that that awareness is just it stops there. The discomfort around asking pronouns or asking about people's identity or even knowing what cisgender means is just not it's just not there. And we just have so much work to do. Even just hearing you talk about this and answer these questions, I hear some of the like exhaustion in your voice of like, this is you've answered these questions so many millions of times and had to think about this so often. So is there a way in which you can like deal with these issues and talk about these things with your kids in a way that still feels joyful?

17:41Or is it always just a chore that you wish you didn't have to do? Oh, it doesn't feel like a chore, particularly with my kids, because to me, it's developmental. They're like a sponge. It only becomes tiring when the people on the other end are closed off or I have to kind of convince them. I'm actually like totally both intellectually and emotionally, spiritually invigorated by being part of this learning process with them and seeing what kind of humans they're going to grow up to be by having this lived experience and what kind of world they can help create. And by their lived experience being one of gender expansiveness, not just like a theoretical thing that they learn from a textbook, but a lived one, right?

18:29Like I'm using son and daughter particularly because they have expressed to me what their gender is already. Right. Like it wasn't something we assigned to them, but my kids feel very strongly about my daughter feels very much like a girl and my son feels very much like a boy, even though we've asked that question since as early as possible. Like, how do you know? Here's some other options. Tell us if it ever changes. so also it might change but they their bodies even down to like how do you how do you help them understand their bodies not in a gendered way that they're just bodies and we had my daughter for a while was singing this song about like girls girls have vaginas and some boys have vaginas and some girls have penises and boys some boys have penises and some girl boys have vaginas there's some song she made up she would just sing it in the tub because this is not just about gender expression.

19:16It's also about how do we help them understand that bodies can be many things as well. And how do you learn masculinity and femininity from differently bodied people? Related to that, what do you, what kind of tips or maybe even activities do you recommend to other parents of kids about your kid's age or younger to get into this and to have these conversations and start, give their kids that gender expansiveness and that feeling that you just described? I think an important thing is to like help make it part of the everyday. Like my first advice would be to help make it part of everyday conversation rather than like, let's sit down and talk about gender because that separates it from like the everyday for parents or people that are new to this.

19:58So think about what's one thing you can do differently when it comes to gender and kids. So it could be like when a kid genders somebody that they know, like that's a boy and be like, how do you know that's a boy? They didn't tell us that they identified as a boy. Just kind of like in a very accessible, low stakes, low stress, not proving them wrong, but just like, pause, think. What is telling you that this person is a boy? How do you know? And do that over a period of time. Because really the goal here is for people to just be more critical and conscious about the way that gender shows up in your life.

20:35Or it could be like asking your kid how a certain article of clothes makes them feel pretty beautiful strong all of those words can be described another tip would be to just think about the ways in which you gender everyday things why do we call the dog a boy is it because he has a penis you know is his energy a boy what are we putting on this inanimate object and just think about where in the everyday gender shows up into the pause and maybe do it differently i went back when i was more specifically in the LGBT space, I would prompt folks to think about not using pronouns all day. Like, can you go through a day without using, without assigning someone pronouns, using someone's pronouns, just to elevate your consciousness around how often you use gendered pronouns.

21:23So that next time when you have to interrupt your consciousness, because you've met someone new who uses a pronoun that either doesn't jive with what you think it is, or they're explicitly asking you to use a different pronoun that you've not used before, it's a skill to pause, unlearn, relearn, and be conscious about how often you just naturally, just not naturally, but like you've been socialized just to use a gendered pronoun. So small things that then accumulate over time that will help you just become more conscious overall about how gendered of a world you live in. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but we will be right back with more from Dr.

22:04LB Hannes.

22:19And we are back. We're talking about parenting authentically with Dr. LB Hannes. And as LB discusses in their talk, a big challenge for them, a challenge that I think many, many people can relate to, is having to deal with their own insecurities and their own hangups to make sure that those don't get passed along and taught to their kids. Here's a clip from LB's talk. I have to confront my own assumptions about what a dad's body can and should be. So I work every day to try and be more comfortable in this body and in the ways I express femininity. So I talk about it more. I explore the depths of this discomfort and find language that I feel comfortable with.

22:54And this daily discomfort helps me build both agency and authenticity in how I show up in my body and in my gender. I'm working against limiting myself. I want to show her that a dad can have hips. A dad doesn't have to have a perfectly flat chest or even be able to grow facial hair. And when she's developmentally able to, I want to talk to her about my journey with my body. I want her to see my journey towards authenticity, even when it means showing her the messier parts. Something that I've heard from people across the gender spectrum is that while parenting is amazing and it can bring so much joy and can really expand your life, it's also a challenge when sometimes you're put into this box by the concept of parents.

23:40And I think like people feel sometimes trapped by like the word mom and like the expectations around what being a mom means or the what being dad is supposed to be. How do you try and expand what that box means and make it fit you rather than trying to fit into the box? Yeah, it's funny. The other day I was at my dad's and he was talking about how he had bought a soft chainsaw, but one that's on the end of a stick to take down a branch. And I was extremely dangerous purchase. Definitely. That's what I said. But I was like, Dad, that scares me a little bit. That's a little dangerous, a little risky.

24:13And he's like, this is what dads do. Come on, you want to be a dad? You got to be able to cut down the tree. And I'm like. You literally need a chainsaw and a stick to be called a dad. Yeah, exactly. And he was half joking, but I think there was a little bit of like, you say you want to be a dad, prove it kind of language. Now, Tavia, my dad is wonderful and supportive. But there are these constant messages. And I think cisgender dads, too, deal with this as well about, like, what does it mean to be a dad? Are there biological parts that are required? We know that's not true because there's many ways people come to be a dad.

24:46And I think the beauty in my lived experience and the opportunity that I have stepping into the dad box, but from a different body than typically the dads are, I get to choose what part of the, like, stereotypes around dad I participate in and which ones I don't. Like, however I show up that day is a dad way of being. Now, folks around me might not always feel that way. But if I'm doing it and I'm a dad, then it's a dad thing. I love that. You wrote an article, I Am Florida, and you wrote about raising a family as a queer parent in Florida. And you talked about, you know, not being allowed to be on your child's birth certificate.

25:29But these choices that are political choices and legal choices have really directly affected your relationship with your family. How do you navigate living in a place that I think to most of us at times seems like it might even be actively hostile to your family's existence? Yeah, well, since that article came out, I've moved back to my home state of New York. I'm in upstate New York now, so I don't live in Florida anymore. But there are many people that can't leave, that choose not to leave, that that is their home, that live under state antagonism, really is what it is. And here's the thing, for folks that haven't lived in more antagonistic states and come from those places that are considered quote unquote more liberal New York, California, those kind of places.

26:10While the state antagonism isn't as present in your everyday life, there's still plenty of like cultural antagonism. And it's not necessarily a place where you are welcome or thriving. It's just that the laws aren't trying to erase you in the moment. And so there are ways that communities and local efforts that and ways in which people survive and they find ways to find joy and fight when they can and rest and celebrate when they can and advocate and protest and do all the kind of efforts that you need to do to resist the antagonism. If someone is listening to this and they're not a parent, but maybe they are someone who works in a school or they work in a medical facility.

26:57Maybe they're a pediatrician or they work in a hospital or something like that. What are the kinds of considerations that you wish other people who interact with your kids and with your family knew and just did as the default? What would make your life easier and better? For so long, a lot of these places like a pride center or cultural center have been in triage mode where we create spaces and programs for those of us that experience the oppression and those spaces are needed. But if we're really going to think about change and cultural change, you know, in this case of LGBT folks, the best guess out there is 10 to 15 % of the population is LGBTQ.

27:34We need the 80 to 85 % to be doing their own work, to be interrupting their parents, their cousins, their kids, and to be identifying as cisgender, to be doing their own exploring of their own identities and getting familiar with the language and getting more comfortable and having it be part of their everyday. So, and particularly for parents and other people that are in the education space or really the human services space is stop putting all the labor on us to educate you and to get you to change. Do more self-work. The internet is a great resource. Participate in trainings, participate in conversations, deepen and change so that you can interrupt those cycles too.

28:14And it's not just on us to be like, hey, you misgendered me again. Get out in front of that. And do your own kind of changing so that we don't have to be in triage mode all the time because trans kids' suicidal rates are high, not because other trans kids are bullying them. It's because cis kids are and the state is working against them. And all the messages that we're receiving is they're not valid, they're not worthy. And we can't change that. Y 'all got to change that. You got to listen. You got to change. You got to take on the responsibility to do that yourself in big and small ways. Who you vote for, what TV you watch, what TV you don't watch, what you consume.

28:48And then all of those little things that I've already talked about, not just from a parental perspective, but in your own life. Pay attention to where gender is and where it's not. You know, we've talked a lot about you as a parent. We haven't really talked about your own childhood. What was your childhood like and how did that shape how you want to be a parent and how you are a parent? Yeah, I grew up in a small, predominantly white, pretty rural town in upstate New York. and while there were no gay folks in our town, certainly no examples of trans folks. I mean, this was the 80s and the 90s.

29:20It was, and it was not a major urban center and certainly TV, we all know what TV was in the 80s and 90s. So trans folks were like not in existence. My parents, working class people, always had two to three jobs, loving, but not in terms of like being intentional around this kind of stuff and weren't able to be as present. So we were left to our own devices a lot. And my sister and I were tomboys and she grew out of it and I didn't. And to their defense, they didn't, they weren't heavy fisted about shutting that down. So we were running around with our shirts on. We wanted short haircuts. They let us get short haircuts.

29:57I think part of it was like exhaustion. Just like, okay, I'm not going to fight this. Just whatever you want. There was, I think, more than average room for just being able to be before puberty hit. And then things started to have to change. There was a small window of time where there was some freedom around being able to try on boyhood or masculinity as a kid that I think probably prevented me from having more discomfort or struggle around coming out. Now, it still was really hard, but I think because I had that lived experience as a kid where I could try it on and the consequences weren't so forceful, it wasn't like as strict as we know some other households are and some other families are.

30:47So I think that window of trying it on stayed with me. If I think about the time period where I have the most memories from childhood, it's then. And then before then and after then is a little bit more fuzzy. And I think that's not a coincidence. I think that makes sense because I was probably living in a more authentic version of myself in that window of time where I was a tomboy. And then I had to put on a different dress, literally and metaphorically and play pretend and not be in my own body enough until I found my way back in my 20s. And so it was mixed, but it could have been way worse.

31:25Could have been way better, could have been way worse. I think I got kind of in that middle experience. Are you trying to recreate that middle space for your own kids? I'm trying to create all the space for my own kids, all the space. And luckily, I have co-parents that are on the same page. And the rest of my family, parents are kids a little bit differently, but they know how we're raising our kids. Honestly, I'm trying to recreate that space for myself because I think it's hard when you don't grow up, you don't have that foundation of expansiveness. You revert and you morph. I'll speak for myself, like I've morphed into different versions of myself to try to fit in.

32:01And now I'm like, OK, what what is what I need to get back to that place where I felt like the most me. So I'm trying to create all the space for my kids from a gender perspective and then all the other ways. So, yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, I think what more could any. Kid want from a parent and what more could any parent want for their kid than to create all the space? That's in every way of that. You've talked about co-parenting and having been in one relationship. and it changing. How do you navigate these issues when it's not just you? I feel like I hit the jackpot with my co-parenting situation, to be honest, but co-parenting is not for the faint of heart.

32:37I know there's a lot of people trying to rethink like family structures and family dynamics. And me and my kid's mom have been on the same page about so many things and being really intentional about what other adults we bring into our circle. And so we broke up in terms of our marriage and things like that. And she has a new partner, a cis man. And that creates a whole new dynamic because we have a cis man in our co-parenting structure. We have a cis woman and then a trans dad. And it's interesting to watch how the world consumes us and what sense they make of it. My son plays t-ball and we go to every game.

33:15I'm the coach and the other two parents with all three kids. Now they've subsequently had a kid. My co-parents partner is my kid's stepdad and their kid we're trying to find a new word right now we're going with dunkel which is a combination of dad and uncle so we're trying to create new words it feels a little clunky i'm still trying it out we don't know yet but it requires a lot of intentionality and making sure that whoever we bring into our family from a co-parenting perspective is on the same page about what we're trying to do here which is like center the kids from a values perspective, we're all on the same page, you know, that our relationships as the adults has to be symbiotic for the kids to be centered.

33:54And so we've done a lot of work. I'm sure there's going to be more work to do, but I feel really, really thankful and grateful for the co-parenting situation. I'm in. I just think it's really refreshing. And I think so relatable to just hear you say, you know, like we're figuring it out. I'm trying this out. Maybe this is going to work. Maybe it's not. But like, that is the reality of what parenting is. No one is perfect at it. You can't possibly be perfect at it. No, they're bullshit if they're talking like it is because it's the most messy experience, particularly if you're doing your own work and being conscious about how you're showing up in it.

34:28The only consistent is that it's messy and it changes. Okay. Very, very different end of the spectrum question. What is one idea or book or movie or piece of music? What's one thing that has made you a better human? The movie Dirty Dancing is my favorite movie. Great. And the reason it's made me a better human is because I always really identify strongly with the Johnny Castle character. And it's only in my adulthood, I'm like, why did I just want to be him? And one, because he's a great dancer and everything for dancing and wanting to be a better dancer. But his version of masculinity in that movie, Patrick Swayze's character was just softer and more gentle, especially in the 80s and 90s and movies around masculinity.

35:14He was just softer and gentler and wanting to be kind of authentic in that version and not being taken advantage of rather than this like macho version of masculinity that just wasn't resonating with me. So it was an aspect of masculinity as a person that was not born and raised a boy. That's the first time I felt like, oh, I can some connection to. And I always watch that movie. I love that movie. I think that's helped me be a better human because it helped me feel connected to my masculinity before I knew what that even meant. That's fantastic. I thought that first, but I was trying to come up with something way more intellectual.

35:50Oh, you can't beat that. First answer, best answer, especially in this case. Well, LB, thank you so much for being on the show and thanks so much for talking to us. It was a really pleasure. It was a great time talking to you. Appreciate it.

36:03That is it for today's episode. This has been How to Be a Better Human. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and thank you so much to today's guest, Dr. L.B. Hannes. How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Sammy Case, who is currently using a chainsaw at the end of a stick wall. Anna Phelan and Erika Yoon, Trine Stopper. From Transmitter Media, How to Be a Better Human is brought to you by Greta Cohn, Farah DeGrange, and Leila Das, who are all pioneering a new fashion trend called Dunkelcore. And from PRX, Jocelyn Gonzalez and Sandra Lopez-Monsalve are currently reenacting the choreography from Dirty Dancing.

36:38Thanks most of all to you for listening. If you enjoy our show, please share it with a friend. And we'll be back with more for you next week.