Sunday Pick: How to find true love (w/ Francesca Hogi) | from How to Be a Better Human

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1:17Deciding what to do, how many reps, whether your form is right. It's friction that pulls you out of the experience before you've even started. The Peloton Cross-Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ, builds a workout roadmap that's completely yours so you can stop overthinking and just move. It handles rep counting and form correction in real time and builds weekly plans around the instructors who match your mood, vibe, and personality. The only thing you have to think about is how good it feels to let go. And when you're ready to shift from a run to strength work, one spin of the swivel screen takes you there without losing momentum.

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2:08Hey, TED Talks Daily listeners, I'm Elise Hu. Today, we're bringing you a Sunday pick, and that's where we share an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective, handpicked by us for you. Yesterday was Valentine's Day, a holiday that's become synonymous with celebrating love and relationships. So in honor of love, we thought it would be fun to share a recent episode of How to Be a Better Human, where host Chris Duffy sits down with love coach Francesca Hoagie. She's dedicated to helping daters find lasting love in the midst of a broken dating culture. In this conversation, Francesca shares her approach to analyzing romantic patterns so we can feel more empowered in our love lives.

2:48from discussing romantic manifestations to reflecting on Bell Hook's claim that humans are unskilled at love. Chris and Francesca talk about the ways we can all be more open to love. How to Be a Better Human is a show that looks in unexpected places for new ways to improve and show up for one another. If you want to hear more insights like this, listen to How to Be a Better Human wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about the TED Audio Collective at audiocollective.ted.com. And now onto the episode. Enjoy.

3:30You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and today's episode was recorded in front of a live audience in Vancouver at the 2025 TED conference. This month on the show, we're thinking about love and who could be a better guest for a love conversation than the author of How to Find True Love, Francesca Hoagie. Francesca is many things. She's an author. She's a love coach. She's a former competitor on the TV show Survivor. But above all else, Francesca is someone who really believes in the magic and potential of romance. But at the same time, she's very realistic about what love is not.

4:06So whether you are single and determined to stay that way, whether you are in a committed relationship looking for love or something else entirely, Francesca's got insights that I feel very confident are going to resonate with you. To get us started, here's a clip from Francesca's TED Talk. The fairy tale industrial complex has been lying to you. Through a pervasive web of marketing, advertising, music, movies, and more, is said that while you can't buy love, you can buy your worthiness of being loved. Its commodification of romantic love as a storybook fantasy can be summed up in three simple words.

4:48Happily ever after. Happiness forever. If only you're lucky enough and good enough and good-looking enough to be chosen by a high-status partner, ideally in a romantic comedy-worthy moment. Over the last 10 years, I have spoken to thousands of people about their romantic hopes and dreams, and I can report that for many, their vision of an ideal relationship is straight out of the fairy tale fantasy playbook, which is no wonder, given that Happily Ever After is used to sell us everything from makeup to cars to chewing gum. We've incorporated this propaganda into our real-life approach to relationships, which disconnects us from love, which disconnects us from self-worth, and causes genuine confusion about compatibility.

5:50Instead of making us feel that love is an abundant, infinitely renewable resource inside of us, which it is, it tries to convince us that love is external and scarce. It's time to consider a new possibility for our collective romantic future, one that centers self-love, self-worth, and prioritizes making romantic choices in alignment with our authentic values. No purchase required. We're going to be right back with more from Francesca after this short break.

6:34This episode is sponsored by Peloton. Good design has a way of solving problems you didn't know you had, like the mental overhead of planning a workout. Deciding what to do, how many reps, whether your form is right, it's friction that pulls you out of the experience before you've even started. The Peloton Cross-Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ, builds a workout roadmap that's completely yours so you can stop overthinking and just move. It handles rep counting and form correction in real time and builds weekly plans around the instructors who match your mood, vibe, and personality. The only thing you have to think about is how good it feels to let go.

7:11And when you're ready to shift from a run to strength work, one spin of the swivel screen takes you there without losing momentum. The best solutions don't add complexity. They remove it. Let yourself run, lift, fail, try, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.com. Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover. And to help you better manage your health, we're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology.

7:50We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit oftum.com to learn more.

8:27to talk about in it. But Francesca, let's first start with kind of a really big question, which is, what is the purpose of love? Oh, gosh. No softball question. I love it. Well, I think that the purpose of our lives, maybe not the ultimate, but maybe the ultimate purpose of our lives is to learn to be more loving, more loving to ourselves, to other people, to learn how to give and receive more love. I really see us all on a lifelong love journey that has lots of different phases. And, you know, maybe you're in a dating phase, maybe you're in a relationship phase, maybe you're somewhere in between.

9:08But I think that that's what makes us truly human. And you have this line that you start with. It's really early in the book. It's literally on page one, that true love is an inside job. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit more about that? I don't think that I ever would have come to this conclusion, if not for the fact that I have spent the last 12 years helping other people with romantic love, because it's one thing to have your own experience and your own journey, but it's another thing when in order to pay your bills, you have to help other people with love. It's a hard job. It's a hard job.

9:41And I started as a matchmaker. I used to be a corporate lawyer and through a series of events, I wound up going to matchmaking school and I became a matchmaker. and I was like so naive at the beginning. I was like, this is going to be so great. I'm just going to introduce everyone to their perfect partner and I was very much in that mindset, which I now like really debunk in the book, which is like, it's really just about introducing someone to the right person and you do that and then everything else was going to work out. I learned that that's not the case, right? And I learned that I would work with clients and I could see how I had two clients who have basically the same sort of profile.

10:21And for one, getting into a relationship would be really easy. And for another, it would be much more challenging. But the desire was the same. And I was like, okay, so what's going on here? And it really became obvious that we all have beliefs about love. We have ways that we think about love. We have ways that we feel about ourselves. And all of that is more important than how many people you meet. all of those things that we might think like, oh, how old you are or how, you know, attractive you are, you know, conventionally speaking or demographically where you are. It's just, it's like, oh, this is really actually about what's going on inside of you.

11:03One of the things that I would imagine you get a lot as a matchmaker is people telling you their list of what they're looking for. Yes. And I thought one of the most interesting parts of the book to me is you talk about one of your clients who had this very, very specific type of person that they were looking for. But you say a client once said, being with a black Christian man is my heart's desire. It's the only thing I'm open to. And then you say, for my client, herself, black and Christian, that was her truth and the only kind of person she'd ever been attracted to, despite knowing people of many different backgrounds.

11:33If you feel similarly convicted to only be with someone of a particular group, that is, of course, your choice to make. However, the reason why you've made that choice is worth examining. Yes. I thought that was a really interesting idea. And I'd love for you to tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that. I think if we can imagine the most evolved, spiritually aligned and open, loving version of ourselves, like we wouldn't see things like race and we wouldn't. None of these things that these preferences that we have, we wouldn't have them, but we're human. Right. So we have our preferences.

12:06But sometimes people really, really box themselves in and really work against themselves because they're so strict in their preferences. and I always say, you know, to all my clients or anyone I talk to who's single, if you have a list of, you know, what you're looking for in a person, that's fine. That list could be, you could have a thousand things on that list. That's fine. But first of all, you need to prioritize, right? Because that's not a human, that's a unicorn, right? But also you need to just understand what everything on your list has to actually do with the relationship that you're going to have.

12:40because there are a lot of things that people put on their list that doesn't come from what is actually in their heart's desire. It doesn't actually come from what they care about experiencing with their partner. It comes from their idea of who they should be with. For this particular client, you know, we really talked about this and she's like, no, it's not. This is really what I feel called to have. And I'm like, great. I would never try to talk anybody out of that. But sometimes I hear people say things like, oh, I only want to be with somebody who's, you know, fill in the blank. And when I ask them, okay, well, why?

13:13And they'll just say things like, well, those are the only people who've ever been attracted to me. Or that's the only kind of person I've ever dated. Like when people are talking about what they want, it's very often there's just a filter of, well, who do I think wants to be with me? And that's where I'm starting. And it's like, well, what if you just wipe the slate clean. And, you know, and one of the things that, you know, I'm always talking to my clients about, and I, you know, obviously talk about in the book, is moving past this idea of like this perfect person that you see yourself with, and really think about what do I actually want the relationship to feel like, right?

13:50What I want to experience with my partner. And so often, we use these external traits as a proxy for what we think the relationship will be. I mean, I work with all sorts of clients, but the majority of my clients are professional women who date men. So it's very common for me to hear something like, oh, well, I need somebody who has, you know, a certain level of education or who makes a certain amount of money. And I'll say, OK, well, why? Because, again, you can want whatever you want, but it's just it's important to know why you want it. And I hear all the time a version of, well, if I'm with somebody who has this level of success, this level of education, this level of income, then they'll be supportive of me.

14:31Then they won't be intimidated by me. Then they'll root for me and they won't. But it's like, OK, well, that's what you really want. So what you really want is somebody who's going to be supportive of you. You want somebody who's going to root for you. You want somebody who's not going to be intimidated by your success. And guess what? There are plenty of people who make way more money than you do and have more education who won't meet that criteria. So rather than using the education and the resume as a proxy for what you really want, actually focus on what you really want. You talk about people often think of standards, of having standards in dating as meaning who they would date.

15:07Like I would not date a man who is shorter than six feet. I would not date a woman who looks in this different way. And you talk about the standards that we should care about are the standards for once you're in the relationship with the person. How they're going to treat you. How you two will relate to one another. Those are actually the really important standards. But people tend to think about them less. And often there's like this implicit idea that if I could get a man who was 6 '3 and has blonde hair and green eyes and makes$250 ,000 a year, then it actually doesn't matter how he treats me.

15:40Yeah. Very often I'll hear things like, oh, well, you know, I'm not going to settle. I'm not going to settle for less than what I want. But it is these external characteristics. But then oftentimes you talk to people, you talk about their relationship history, you talk about their dating history. and you realize they're settling for trash in terms of like, you know, how they're treated, how much somebody really sees them for who they are, appreciates them for who they are. And that's part of this, you know, external focus. And I don't blame anyone because, you know, in our culture, we are very conditioned to be externally focused in general.

16:17And certainly when it comes to romantic relationships and the idea of who's eligible and, you know, who's a catch. And it's not like, oh, this person's a catch because they're so respectful and they treat me so well. It's like, oh, this person's a catch because they have this kind of job, they look this certain way, they have these certain credentials. And so it's time for us to move past that. You also talk several different times in the book about how it's really important to whoever you are, not just at face value, except the messages that we sometimes get from society and culture about desirability or beauty or datability.

16:56You talk a lot in the book about the messages that you've received as a black woman about who might be willing to date you and whether you are a desirable dating commodity or not, and how important it is to push back against some of those messages. I wrote this book for everyone, regardless of, you know, your race, your gender, your sexual orientation. However, I had to specifically talk to black women because we get so many messages as black women, like we're the least desired, we're the least favorited on dating apps, we're the least this, we're the least married. And there's so much, I mean, sometimes I'm like, it seems like there's like a media conspiracy to make black women think that nobody wants to date you.

17:37And you really have to decolonize your mind from that because if you're seeing yourself inherently as there's who I am inherently makes me therefore less desirable. I mean, first of all, I feel like if there's somebody who doesn't want to be with me because I'm a black woman, like, please take yourself out of the running. Like, that's great. Like, bye, you know. It's much more productive to focus on the people who do want you. But we do have to think about how much am I holding myself back? How much am I, again, assuming who is going to be interested in me because of, you know, these narratives.

18:14And this, you know, I'm speaking specifically about black women in this instance, but this is for anyone, you know, because if you think, oh, I'm X, fill in the blank. Everybody has their blank that they can fill in that might make you think that you're going to be less desirable. But I also think there's a larger point here about how part of the conditioning that we get about romantic love is that we need to have so many options, right? And the more options you have, the better. And, you know, you can see that on dating apps, like people who are really trying to make themselves as marketable to as many people as possible.

18:52Right. Like I want to get as many matches as possible. I want to have as many options as possible. And I just really push back against that because it's like you don't want you don't want to date everybody. Why do you want everybody to date you? Right. And so it's actually a much more effective strategy to really know who you are, to develop a loving relationship with yourself, and then show up as yourself. Because how else will people recognize you as the right person for them? And how else will you know when you're with somebody, like, oh, yeah, this feels right for me, you know? On a previous episode of the show, we interviewed Priya Parker about the art of gathering.

19:28And something she said that feels really parallel is she's like, the way to have a really boring party is to make it an event that anyone would want to go to. Like, what you want is to come up with an idea where some people are going to say, that is not for me. Yeah. Because other people then are going to be like, oh, that's totally for me. Yeah. And I feel like you're saying the same thing with dating, which is like, you want people to see who you are in a way where some of them are going to go, that is not my type of person. Exactly. Exactly. I think that, and that's, and I think if people could have that attitude, like they would save themselves so much more angst rather than feel like I need to be quote chosen.

20:04I need to be liked. You know, a lot of people are dating from a place of wanting to be liked and wanting to be chosen more than finding somebody who they really like. Right. And, and that more of a mutual choosing. I had a brief period of time where I was on dating apps in the early days of Tinder. And I would always, because I'm just kind of a strange person. And I always wanted to lead with that. Because I'm like, if you're not down with me being a weirdo, like there's no point. And so I would send these like weird messages to people because I just wanted them to like, It was like my weeding out process, you know, because there'd be people who'd be like, why are you asking me that?

20:49And be like, okay, great. You're not my person, you know? But the people who are like, who could roll with me and be like, okay, that's a weird question, but I'm going to answer it anyway. That was like, I'm like, yes, that's who I'm looking for. So I think everyone could do with being a little bit more weird and leading with your weirdness. I love that.

21:10We're going to be back with more wonderful weirdness right after this break. So don't go anywhere.

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22:05It's friction that pulls you out of the experience before you've even started. The Peloton Cross-Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ, builds a workout roadmap that's completely yours so you can stop overthinking and just move. It handles rep counting and form correction in real time and builds weekly plans around the instructors who match your mood, vibe, and personality. The only thing you have to think about is how good it feels to let go. And when you're ready to shift from a run to strength work, one spin of the swivel screen takes you there without losing momentum. The best solutions don't add complexity, they remove it.

22:40Let yourself run, lift, fail, try, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.com. You have the vision for your business. You have the plan. And you just got handed a huge opportunity. But is your business connectivity reliable enough to make a move? Spectrum Business delivers fast, reliable internet, phone, TV, and mobile services. So you're always connected when it matters most. Get connectivity packages built for your business with savings that keep your budget in check. And with fast, reliable internet and 100 % U.S.-based customer support, you'll stay connected and ready to bring your vision to life.

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23:31And we are back. We're talking about love, attraction, and relationships with Francesca Hoagy. Going back to this idea that you have to decolonize your mind a little bit and stop yourself from taking in all these messages that you've heard about whether you're desirable or not. Just on a practical level, how do you do that? What steps can a person take to actually make those changes? I break the book down into four parts or four steps in this journey of finding true love. And the first step is to think bigger about love. So it's about your love mindset. And a big part of that is just literally confronting some of these beliefs that you have about love and these ways that you have been conditioned to think about love.

24:14And I'm never expecting anybody to have like a 180 degree switch in a moment, though sometimes that does happen. But at least start to like chip away and consider a different perspective, consider a different possibility. but also it's important to like actually be clear on, well, what do I think about love, right? What do I think is the purpose of relationships? Like what are those beliefs that I have about who wants to be with me or who I should be with? And like literally write them down and look at them and like start to say like, oh, is that even true? Is that always true? Like, you know, and just start to get more curious about some of these beliefs and assumptions that you have rather than just assume that, you know, this is just how it is.

24:57There's so many really practical steps and there's exercises and activities and, but the four big steps to bring yourself into a place where you can find true love, you say are step one, change how you think about love to work on your mindset. Step two, feel better about love and yourself, working on your heart set. Step three, connect with a higher love, soul set. And then step four, date in alignment with love, skill set. I found that reading this book and thinking about it, the idea that you have to change your mindset and the idea that you have to change your skill set and the way that you feel about yourself, those all really like they instantly were things that I could relate to.

25:38I feel like the one that I struggled with, or at least initially, I mean, I think you do a really persuasive job of communicating it, but I felt like soul set was one that I initially struggled with a little bit because sometimes there's this idea that like we have to manifest, we have to attract this into our lives. We do. But here's my initial hesitation with that is when I hear it like that, it seems like it can sometimes put blame on the people who aren't in relationships or have had bad luck. Like, it's not just random chance. It's your fault. You haven't like manifested hard enough. You didn't attract.

26:17Like the reason you're alone isn't because your partner did something wrong. It's because you didn't manifest hard enough. And I know that's not what you're saying, but I'd love to have you respond to that. Because I think that's an idea out there in the world. It is an idea out there in the world. And yes, that is absolutely not what I'm saying. It's not about blame. But I think, okay, like even if we just take a step back and let's substitute romantic love with another area of life, right? Like say it's your professional career. And is it your fault if you have had a professional career that's rocky and maybe you've had a lot of jobs that haven't worked out and maybe you keep running up against the same kind of obstacles over and over again?

26:58It's not that it's necessarily your fault, but it is your responsibility to say, okay, I am half of the equation here. so what can I learn from this right and what might I need to shift like maybe I need to stop applying for these jobs that I think is the kind of job that I should have when actually it's not at all what I want to do for instance right the soul set piece of the book was the hardest part to write because I didn't want people to feel like I was blaming them and I didn't want it to feel so woo woo that it felt inaccessible or like you know and I don't say make a vision board. It's not that kind of book.

27:35Not that there's anything wrong with that. But I didn't want anyone to think that like, oh, she's talking about the soul. She's talking about manifesting love. It's really just understanding that like, just as for some people, it's easier to make a friend. You tend to attract people into your life who are really great friends, or you tend to attract certain opportunities into your life with more ease than other people. It's not that there's anything wrong or bad about those other people, but there is something that can be learned and can be more aligned. This is not about being perfect. This is never about being perfect.

28:13And so manifesting is not about being perfect. None of this is about being perfect, but it is understanding that we do have certain patterns of things that we attract in our lives. And if you can get curious about that and start to think about, well, if I'm attracting something, if I have this pattern that keeps showing up that I don't want, then I see it as empowering to say, okay, actually, there's something that I can shift here. Not like, it's your fault. And you know, that's, you're doomed. Yeah. And I also think that something you said that really resonated with me is thinking about this idea of like, soul set and the idea of bringing yourself into a place where you're open to find love is also about, like, not believing that it's impossible.

28:55Because if you do believe it's impossible, even if it's right there in front of you, you kind of shut down the possibility. Yes. So can I have you read that paragraph there? Okay. Perfect faith at every moment isn't required. Remember that we don't have to be perfect to have true love. We already have love's perfection within us, so don't worry about that. Simply recognize that if you believe in a universe where you personally have no ability to have the love you want due to who you are, is going to be extremely difficult for you to manifest true love. Belief that love is the strongest force in the universe and that nothing excludes you from its power is worth adopting for yourself.

29:33It also happens to be true. I really like that. And it made me think of, I grew up in New York City. One time I was walking by H &H Bagels. And there was a man with a sign outside that said, Hungry, please help. And I wanted to help him. So I went in and I was getting my own bagel. And I bought another bagel. and I went out and I gave it to him. And he said, truly, genuinely, oh no, another bagel.

30:02And I was kind of like, you're in front of a store that only sells bagels. Saying that you're hungry. Yeah, and I'm certainly not trying to put blame on him. Yeah. But I think that - He needed to manifest something different. He could do something different. I think that a parallel situation happens to many people in relationships. Yes. Where they're like, I'm out here looking for some sort of food and I just keep getting handed bagels. And they don't realize that if you moved 100 feet in either direction, you might have more options. It is definitely a very common thing that people approach dating in the exact same way over and over and over again, choosing the same types of people, engaging the same dynamics when they're meeting people, and then ending up in the same type of relationship and then being very frustrated and feeling like, why does this keep happening to me?

30:59And it's, again, it's not about blame, but it is about you are in front of a bagel store, right? And you're asking for food. And so that's what you're going to get. that it's very helpful to reflect on your past experiences and to like really be like, okay, this is how it began, right? Then this happened, then this happened, then this happened. And there's so much commonality. And like our patterns are not just happening to us without our cooperation. I mean, we are sort of on autopilot and we have the things that we habitually do, but it's not as if though, you know, you're doing things and you have all these different approaches and it just, the same thing keeps happening over and over again.

31:39Like there is that agency that you have. And that's one of the things that I really want to convey. And I really tried to convey in this book is that we have more romantic agency than we might think. And we might have been kind of programmed to think because we are kind of conditioned to think that it's this romantic love is this magical thing that just kind of happens to us rather than see ourselves as co-creators. You, several times in this book, quote from Bell Hooks. And I personally love the way Bell Hooks writes about love. One of the things that you quote is Bell Hooks saying that most of us are unskilled at love.

32:15Yes. And the other is about fantasy. And one of your clients who is maybe being held back by these fantasies of what a relationship should be like versus the reality of the people. Yeah. I'm curious to hear about those specific moments, but also maybe just more generally what bell hooks's work has meant to you in this in the work that you do you know it's meant a lot i i think that there's such a a rigor and a like a seriousness with which she looks at love you know including romantic love that is often absent from a conversation about romantic love and that has been um you know very helpful to me personally and certainly in the work that I do to have that sort of elevation in how we think about love because we're very focused in our culture on love as an emotion.

33:03So we want to feel love, but we are not as generally focused on love as a verb, as an action, as a thing that we do, as a choice that we make. Bell Hook said, we are generally unskilled at love because it's not something that we get a lot of education around, right? We just, it's just like, oh, you just want to feel it. You just want to feel it and not do it. And I think her words have really given me a very tangible way to help to communicate to people, honestly, about like, this is actually a skill. Relationships are a skill. All of the things that go into making a successful relationship work are actually skills and not just a, you know, men and love.

33:51And you said that many of your clients are professional women who date men. I know that in my personal experience, I am a straight man. And I think that sometimes it can be harder to communicate about love, to understand access to all of these emotions because of all the social pressures around what is permitted within masculinity. And just in my own personal life, when I think about single people I know, I know so many unbelievably unbelievably talented, smart, beautiful single women who I would like recommend to anyone. And then I have single male friends who are weapons I would not inflict on an enemy.

34:32And I think that I'm not the only one who has that relationship where it's like, do you know anyone you could introduce me to? And I'm like, I do, but you do not want that. Yeah. So what do you do? That's what I was going to ask. What do you do? What do you do? How do you do it? Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, it is absolutely the case that, you know, toxic masculinity and patriarchy doesn't just harm women. It harms men, right? Because it harms many men's ability to access, you know, emotions like love and vulnerability and to deal with a lot of the discomfort of emotion and being human and being in relationship.

35:12So in general, yes, there are more men who have less skill at love and relationships than women do. Absolutely. In an individual person's love journey, it's important to not let the predominant, what might be the predominant circumstance start to impact you too much. in terms of like, and what I mean by that is like, if I was looking for a job in a bad job market, you might be like, okay, yeah, this isn't a great job market, but you still like, you still could be pretty committed to getting a good job, right? And still know that like, even though most of the jobs in this market are not for me, like I'm still going to find a good job.

35:56And it's really, that's kind of the same mindset that you have to have, which is, you know, is every straight man in your city, town, or country going to be a good match for you? No, absolutely not. But, you know, I believe that we have the ability to always find people who are actually great for us. But it might take you having a level of openness that you didn't always have, which doesn't mean, and I think when I say things like this, people are like, but I don't want to have to date anybody. You know, it's not about dating just anyone, but it is about like saying, okay, what are the things that are the most important to me here?

36:33Because if I'm like looking for a man who's going to come like fully formed and like, you know, all of the things, it checks all the boxes and has all of the emotional intelligence and has all of the level of, and that's like, I'm looking for that and I'm not, and if I don't see that, then I'm like, okay, there's no one for me. But if you start to just like focus a little bit more on, okay, what are the core? And, you know, and one of the things I talk about in the book is relationship values, right? So like what are these core relationship values, which I really think of as like your relationship needs?

37:06And you start looking for those things instead, right? So if you're like, okay, like for instance, I want to have a family. Like I want to be with somebody where we really prioritize our family. then like start looking for men who have that versus looking for a man who has like you know what I mean like it's you just have to kind of like not take everything as at face value and start looking a little bit deeper those values that you were saying those are the foundation of true love yeah but some of these you can build over time but some of them kind of need to be there from the start so like certainly physical safety needs to be there from the start yeah Which of the other ones grow with time?

37:45And which ones are like, they have to just be there from day one? Because if they're not there, this is clear we have to leave. This isn't the right person. Yeah. I mean, commitment can grow over time. Absolutely. I think that intimacy grows over time. I think that respect has to be there from day one. Like the idea that, you know, you have to earn somebody's respect is like, no, that's to me like. The respect needs to be there and needs to be there from day one. And I think the safety needs to be there from day one. And those are the things that I feel are really, really, really critical. And then everything else does and hopefully will, you know, grow over time.

38:28I think also if I can just give advice based on your book, too. I think for men, I think that one of the things that I would say that is in this book is there's a lot of cultural pressure against doing the first steps, like finding love in yourself and loving yourself and feeling like you're worthy. And like your worth isn't because you got a good job or you're able to fix things or you have a partner who is attractive, right? Like, I think doing the work to be like, it's, I am worthy and I can love myself. There's not a lot of support for men to do that. And I think that doing that work is so important.

39:09And then the second thing I would say is there's just so much pressure on men to be able to, like, fix problems, to solve problems. And that is actually really unhelpful in relationships. Like instead to be able to be vulnerable and be with someone experiencing a problem rather than trying to solve it is a really big and challenging thing for most straight men in our society at least, I think. Yeah, I agree with that. But I think, and tell me if you agree with this, Chris, I think that this is starting to shift. And I do think it's that more and more men are becoming more able to look a little bit deeper and to start to examine the relationship that they have with themselves.

39:51And I think that we are at a not great moment in our dating culture. And that's not fun for people who are dating. But I do think that the upside is that we're bumping up against the limits of what doesn't work. Yeah. And that is actually good. Because now it's an opportunity for people to say, okay, I've been trying to do this thing this one way. And that's not it. So it's time to actually start to do things a little bit differently. And I see there's this pushback. You know, there's a lot of men who are trying to really hold on to an old way of thinking. But I do think that there's also a new movement of men who are like, okay, I actually do have to get in touch with my emotions.

40:38My relationship with myself actually does matter. The fact that I don't feel worthy unless I have X, Y, Z, like that actually seems to be getting in my way. because I do believe that despite societal conditioning that men want love as much as women do. Oh, I absolutely believe that. On my optimistic days, I agree with you that we're moving in the right direction, but other days I wake up and feel like there is. And you look at the news and you're like, oh God. Yeah, other days I think like, what's the ascendant view of masculinity today? And it doesn't seem like it's the good one. Yeah, but I think conversations like this are helpful Because, I mean, I have empathy for all of us because who teaches us about this?

41:20I mean, I used to hate when people would say to me like, oh, you need to love yourself more. What does that mean? Am I supposed to just wake up and be like, oh, my God, I'm amazing. Like, look in the mirror. Oh, my God, you're amazing. Like, that's not helpful. And I have a whole chapter about self-love in the book, by the way, that's about tactics and how to really, you know, practice that. But I think that the more tools that we give people, then the better it is. Then the easier it'll be for men who want to actually have deeper connections, and women, everyone, regardless of gender, that then they'll be, oh, okay, there is a path forward.

41:57Because it's not helpful to say to anybody, well, you just need to feel more worthy. You know, in dating, there's often this idea and this big focus on the idea of finding the one, of having a soulmate. Can you talk about your philosophies behind soulmates or the one? How do you respond to people who have that idea? So I think that there's more than one for everyone. I think that the idea that there is only one perfect person is very unhelpful. We would never think that there's only one person who could be our best friend. There's only one person who could be, you know, a great mentor or, you know, anything.

42:33And it's only romantic love that we tend to put in this special category. I think that soulmates come in lots of shapes and sizes. I think that we have multiple soulmates in our lives, and some of those are romantic and some of them are not. And I think that the more expansive a view you have of love and of human connection, the more you will find the ones. They will come into your life more easily, and you will be able to recognize them and receive their love more easily. Amazing. Yeah. Well, Francesca Hoagie, thank you so much for being here. Thank you all so much to you. Thank you. Thank you.

43:12That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to Francesca Hoagie. Her book is called How to Find True Love, and you can find out more about her and her love coaching and all of her incredible projects at FrancescaHogie.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new book, Humor Me, How Laughing More Can Make You Present, Creative, Connected, and Happy, is out now. You can fall in love with my book and find out more about my live shows and all the other things that I do at ChrisDuffyComedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a swoon-worthy team of dream boats.

43:42On the TED side, we've got Heartthrob HQ, Daniela Balarezzo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tanzika Sun Manivong, Antonia Leigh, and Joseph Debrine. This episode was fact-checked by Mateus Salas, who passionately loves the truth. On the PRX side, they are looking deep into your soul while a gentle breeze ruffles their perfectly quaffed hair. I'm talking about Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. We love you. Please send this episode to anyone and everyone as an audio valentine. You have to give one to the whole class.

44:16Those are the rules. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care.

44:25it's been so much fun for me to talk to our guests about the interesting ways that we can take ourselves less seriously and i've been enjoying it so much that i'm going to have another conversation with ted talks daily host elise hugh about my new book humor me and it's going to be a virtual event on february 18th if you want to hear that conversation you can become a ted member to join us live to learn about the history and the science behind inside jokes how to detect a fake laugh, and so much more. We're going to have a great time. Just visit ted.com slash members to join. We're going to have a blast, and we'd love to have you there.

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