TED Talks Daily Book Club: Talk to Me | Rich Benjamin

0:06You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hugh. Happy Sunday, y 'all. Today, we're bringing you a conversation between me and American cultural critic and author, Rich Benjamin. We got together virtually in front of a live audience of TED members a few weeks ago to speak about his new memoir, Talk to Me, Lessons from a Family Forged by History. This conversation is part of our book club series where we check out new books from past TED speakers that will spark your curiosity all year long. We all grow up with families and stories that shape who we are and how we see the world.

0:46Rich, who many know for his popular 2009 book Searching for Whiteopia and his 2015 TED Talk on the same topic, has a particularly unique story. His grandfather was Daniel Fignolet, the popular Haitian leader who was president of Haiti for only 19 days before a U.S.-backed coup removed him from office and changed the course of history forever. The stories that Rich shares in his memoir and that we dig into in our conversation are rooted in themes we can all relate to. He talks about forgiveness, history, and what it's like to grow up under the shadows of family trauma and why storytelling is a powerful tool to help us bridge the growing divides we face today.

1:30Lastly, we want to note that there will be mentions of violence and sexual assault in this conversation, so feel free to mute or leave the conversation when you need to. Now on to the episode.

1:48Rich Benjamin, welcome. Thank you so much for opening your heart and sharing this story and for being with us today. Good to see you, Elise. So let's just jump in and begin where the book starts. In your prologue, you share a story from about 15 years ago or more. You and your boyfriend at the time were in a taxi in Manhattan. You know this scene. The driver hears that you have an accent of some kind, and he wonders if you were also of Haitian descent like him. He keeps asking you where you're from, and you keep saying New York. So why didn't you tell him that you were Haitian, And why did you choose to feature this particular story so early on?

2:28Well, Elise, in that moment, I was having one of these bougie Manhattan nights. We'd just been to the Philharmonic. We hop in a taxi. And the dark-skinned driver says, do you have a Haitian accent? And then where are you from? I'm from New York. Really? Where were you born? New York. Where did you originate from? New York. And so I didn't want to tell him I had Haitian blood because I was so far from Haiti in that moment. And Haiti has this really bad caricature in this country, one that I grew up with. Haiti is dysfunctional. Haiti is riddled with AIDS. Haitians are all boat people. All these negative stereotypes.

3:14And the punchline of that scene, and I won't reveal too much, is when the guy I was seeing at the time says, oh, I had a Haitian nanny, but I can't even remember her name. So there were all these stereotypes that Haitians are on the one hand resilient, but also unsavable. Reading your book, I really related to that overall idea of discovering your own family's incredible history in just bits and pieces, just all the way into adulthood, because our elders often don't like talking about it, right? They say something so unexpected about the past at the dinner table, and you're like, what? So how much did you know before you started this book?

3:53And why, looking back, do you feel like your mother couldn't share this with you? Well, first of all, at least I relate to that because I have friends of all kinds of background. They can have a Chinese background. They can have a Jamaican background. They can have a Jewish background. They can have a Congolese background. And their parents just don't talk about the past. So I hope people read this book and identify with that aspect of family members just not wanting to talk about the past. But in my case, my mother was just silent about it. And in fairness to her, I also didn't ask because of the negative caricatures of 80 I had internalized in my head.

4:38So no one's talking about it. She's not telling me and I'm not asking. Until, of course, the Haitian earthquake in 2010 made not asking impossible. And you also tell the stories of people in this book so intimately, you know, as we're reading this. And it really often feels like you're painting these scenes where we feel like we're in the room while we're reading. So how did you piece all of this together, starting from very little knowledge to just deep, intimate scenes? Thank you for saying that, Elise. I appreciate that. So there's this big record for me in order to paint these intimate scenes.

5:20And that record includes letters from family members. It includes what I would find are news reports. It includes CIA records. And that was part of my journey of discovery was to find out that there's this big archive of records where the CIA operatives in Port-au-Prince were spying on my grandfather. So I'm able to construct the past by that. And also, I'm a bit of a pack rat. If you've ever written me in my life, I've kept that letter that you've written me. So I have a lifetime of letters that I can draw on that were written to me. So all of these help construct the past. But it's also a matter of sleuthing.

6:03One of the records that I got my hands on that really spoke to me and that I would never expect to find was this letter where my grandfather wrote the chief of police in Port-au-Prince begging for better protection for his family. And in order to beg for that better protection, he described the violence that they were living under. And it's just this graphic letter of empty kelch chasings in his living room. It's this graphic letter of broken windows and how his children had to learn to hit the floor in seconds in order to not get hit. So it's all these personal and public records that I'm able to draw on to just paint these intimate lives.

6:50And let's dive in a little bit more to your grandfather, because publicly he became a deeply beloved hero in Haiti, known for fighting relentlessly for the betterment of Haitians, really until the day he died. But privately, a different picture emerges. He was a distant father and husband. He became more and more abusive to his children and wife before fully abandoning his family years later in Brooklyn to live with a much younger woman. So I'm curious, Rich, how did you navigate these very different sides, public and private, of your grandfather? And that's incredible. It kind of speaks to your last question, Elise, is how do you tell the past?

7:30So I can tell the past of his public life, you know, through all these public documents and then interviewing people who knew him. But his private life, that's one of the layers of secrets I was not aware of, that in public, he was this beloved figure who did all these measurable good things for children across Haiti. and then he practically abandoned the children. Not practically, he actually abandoned the children under his roof. And I could get a paint, a picture of how he was as a human being in private, behind closed doors. And so, Elise, there's this beautiful phrase where a journalist in Haiti during his lifetime, they called him the Moses of Port-au-Prince.

8:19He had done so well, but then he was kind of a monster in his own home. How did you reconcile that? It's difficult to reconcile. It's difficult to reconcile. Except to say that he grew up under such, and I'm not excusing it by any means, but he grew up under such hardship and violence. People don't realize that, and this is another really tactile portrait I like to print, is what was it like to grow up as a young Black boy under the colonial power of America? Most people don't realize that America colonized through gunboats Haiti from 1915 to 1934. And what was that like? Not abstractly, not historically, but day to day.

9:08What was that like to grow up under colonialism the way that my grandfather did? So in reconciling the public Moses of Port-au-Prince with a private monster at home, I have to really put him in his context and try and walk in his shoes. Yeah. Let's turn to your mother, because when your mother was held captive after her father, your grandfather, was removed from office, Haitian soldiers raped her. And it was a horrible and violent event that really shaped the entire trajectory of her life and yours, too, even if you write that you didn't always know that. She said she told her father what the soldiers did when they were captured and that he didn't believe her.

9:54She said she could never forgive him for this, and it's one of the reasons she ended up cutting him out of her life altogether. A generation removed now, how do you view this idea of forgiveness in theory and in practice?

10:12Right. For me, and again, I have to go on interviews with people who know my mother well. I have to go on letters she's written me. I have to go on my experience with her. And I would assume at first that she would not forgive her father for the fact that he left the family for a younger woman. But the book argues she doesn't forgive her for that deeper reason. Because at least as children, we expect our parents to protect us. Like deep down at our core, we expect our parents to protect us. And he failed to protect her. And I doubt she ever forgave him for that. And that's part of the layers of secrets.

10:55And the final thing I'll say on that matter is what I didn't know is why my mother chose the career she chose. So here I am bopping around my life and my mother is she's working abroad. She's working for UNICEF. She's working on behalf of young girls. And she's literally working against the sexual assault and violence faced by young girls around the world. And in my research, I recover this beautiful article of an interview she gave to Self Magazine in 1997. And she's talking about her work on behalf of young girls, but she never mentions that incident. So that's another revelation of secrets is part of her chosen career to protect young girls is because of this unknown, violent occurrence that happened to her as a young girl.

11:51So it's woven into the layers of discovery in the book. Do you think that she might have been more effective or even more effective in her work had she brought her own story of sexual assault to the kind of communities that she was trying to connect with? I don't think so. I think that's our generation as Americans, at least, to kind of say, because I've been through this, I know better. This level of empathy, which is a good thing. But I think for her generation, it was more important just to be an expert and to be effective. And it didn't matter so much whether she connected with people personally.

12:31Yeah, that totally makes sense. You say that this book is a love letter of sorts to your mom. What does that mean to you? And now that the book is done, has your relationship with your mother changed?

12:47one really goes on this discovery at one something that i hope is a political potboiler this happens this happens this happens this secret's revealed this secret's revealed i i want the book to read quickly and beautifully and then at the end you realize oh it's about layers of family forgiveness and it's a form of love letters if you look at the history of books There are different forms of love letters in literature. And so this is kind of a social, political one of discovery.

13:25Okay. Let's get back to the politics and talk about Papa Doc or Francois Duvalier, who was later known as Papa Doc, the brutal dictator who ruled Haiti from 1957 until he died in 1971. he was behind the coup that ousted your grandfather from the presidency. And ironically, at one time, he was your grandfather's friend and even your mother's godfather. But obviously, they turned from friends to foes. And based on your research, it seems clear that President Dwight Eisenhower's administration supported Duvalier's coup. So can you speak to this takeover and why the U.S. didn't like your grandfather.

14:08So before being president of Haiti, my grandfather was a labor leader in that country. And we have to imagine people are working their butts off to cull the sugar cane, to cut the sugar cane, to work in shoe factories. They're doing all this difficult work, But they have no representation to these big American corporations. And so my grandfather is their representative as a powerful union broker. And he's able to garner them better wages. He's able to get them better working conditions. And so the corporate heavies across the world do not like him. And so the very day after he's inaugurated, the Eisenhower administration is meeting.

14:58Dwight Eisenhower is presiding over the meeting. And you have the CIA director, you have the defense secretary, you have the secretary of state. And they decide not to recognize my grandfather's administration. And in the subsequent four days, they're fielding all these angry phone calls from U.S. executives. And one of the most chilling phrases I remember is one of these executives telling the Eisenhower administration that Finlay is, quote, our number one enemy, and he should not be allowed to stay in office. And so lo and behold, just 19 days after his inauguration, he's ousted in a coup at the behest of the U.S.

15:45government. And the private sector, it sounds like, corporations. Yeah, exactly. I'd love to talk about your trip to Haiti in 2010. The first time you ever traveled to Haiti and you went right after the devastating earthquake, which killed more than 200 ,000 people, destroyed much of Port-au-Prince and the surrounding area. Can you talk with us a little bit just about the connection between that trip and then your desire to write this book? so as i said i had grown up very indifferent to haiti my mother's not talking about the haitian past but i had just finished my first book searching for whitetopia and then i was leaving my office in manhattan at the time and that's when these images struck the flat screen TV in the lobby and an earthquake, devastating earthquake that destroyed 80 % of Port-au-Prince had just happened.

16:49And you see these Haitian faces pleading. You see these devastated Haitian faces, but you also see the presidential palace crumpled. The balustrades, the columns, the crown of the building, just crumpled into dust. And at that point, ignoring Haiti, ignoring the Haitian blood coursing through my veins, it just became untenable. I had to know who is this man who once occupied this building? And so I packed my bags and set off for Haiti. In or among all of that rubble are some of the Haitian archives that you hope to find on your trip. You mentioned you had to turn to the U.S. archives for some information to piece together about the past.

17:37So yes, where my mother wouldn't speak, where there was no information in some of the Haitian archives, I decided to turn to our archives. And I hit what every writer wants, which is this goldmine of information. And those are the CIA records spying on my grandfather. and four of those documents were still redacted. They were just blacked out by Sharpie. So I had to sue the State Department. I had to appeal their refusal to release the information. And then I had to appeal three more times in federal district court to get that information revealed. And so most of it has been revealed. So today, given the climate that we're in, And how are you grappling with your own relationship with the U.S.

18:27and the power of the U.S. as a state? Yeah, boy, what a great question. I never imagined when I began this book in 2010, really, that all of its messages, spoken and unspoken, would really resonate with me now. And by that I mean the way that history can kind of break and open lives. And that's what I hope readers take from this book. I hope one of the messages, beside the messages about families, about mothers, about love, I hope readers take from this book what happens when history arrives and kind of just yanks the sidewalk from underneath your feet. So I hope readers are paying attention. And Elise, I really like the subtitle of this book, which I didn't come up with.

19:27I can't take credit for. But Lessons from a Family Forged by History. As I speak to you, history is forging us. Yeah. And we have the ability to forge history. You know, with all the horror that's going on in the world, I don't want readers to be these passive victims and say, oh, well, that's the way things are. No, we are active agents in history. We can forge history in the same way that history is forging us. And please, in this moment, as I speak, that we do not become passive sleepwalkers in history. Yeah, yeah, such a vital message. Based on your work, including your first book, Searching for Whiteopia, you like to put yourself in situations where people don't necessarily agree with you.

20:20You were on Fox News as a progressive commentator, something you chose to do for years. Can you speak briefly about why you felt it's important to do this, to go into these spaces, and to work in an environment where you know that people don't generally agree with your positions. Yes. It's one of the through lines from me to my grandfather. And I don't want to self-aggrandize. He obviously did more for more people. He was obviously in more violent situations. But the through line is to put yourself out of a comfort zone. to not believe in safe spaces and to do better in that lack of comfort. And so, yes, for some years, I would say beginning around 2007, I used to go on Fox News as a regular progressive commentator because the calculation was there was a sliver of reasonable, rational Fox News viewers who you could persuade about crucial issues like regulating Wall Street, like police brutality, like raising the minimum wage.

21:36So that's why I decided to go on Fox News. But I could tell I gave a good interview with Bill O 'Reilly and some of these primetime hosts when afterward my inbox would just blow up and I knew that I had gotten under their skin and I was being persuasive. So yeah, you used to do that. I would never go on Fox News now. Yeah, there's no pretense of trying to have a discourse in the same way that existed in 2007. It is obviously a very different environment that we are in today. And knowing all of this reminds me of something your mother taught you, which is this notion that education is not meant to be safe.

22:17Can you speak a little bit more to this and how she viewed it and how it kind of continues on in your work? So my grandfather was also a professor in addition to a labor leader. And as a professor, he would criticize the despotic regime at the time. And for that criticism, he would be tossed into prison. His home would be tear gassed and sometimes worse. And so as a professor, his life was often in danger. But I like to think more spiritually and more in terms of books is he liked dangerous ideas. So not only was he reading Shakespeare and Diderot and the big philosophers of the Enlightenment, he was reading pro-Black Haitian literature, which was considered to be dangerous in that moment.

23:14So I think that lesson seeped down to my mother is that even if education isn't literally dangerous, as was the case with my grandfather, it's meant to be spiritually, intellectually, and politically dangerous.

23:36In your TED Talk, you talk about your research for Whiteopia and how you learn firsthand about how emotionally charged the topic of immigration is and what a hot debate it would become. Immigration turned out to be a big issue in this Whiteopia. The St. George's Citizens Council on Illegal Immigration held regular and active protests against immigration. And so what I gleaned from this, Whitetopia, is what a hot debate this would become. It was a real-time preview. That was back in 2015. Now in 2025, that statement about immigration being a hot debate is obviously still incredibly true. So can you expand on what you meant in your talk and how your notion of immigration and the heat on this topic has changed for you through the writing of Talk To Me, given the political landscape.

24:35Yes. As of 2006, really, I began a 27 ,000-mile, two-year journey to the fastest-growing and widest places in America. And I packed my bags. There was a lot of recreational activity, golf, fishing, poker, and that bowling, that kind of thing. But one thing that caught me off guard in this journey beginning back as of 2007 is the deep antipathy in the actual country to immigration that wasn't registering in Washington. So for me, the most powerful of many examples of this was when I was in one Whitetopia called St. George, Utah, and there was a Citizens Council Against Illegal Immigration. That's their words.

25:31And these members would meet every week describing their stances against immigration. And there were lies spread about Ecuadorians and El Salvadorian gangs. And it was always this nostalgic idea that the California I grew up in, the Seattle I grew up in, the San Antonio I grew up in is gone. And now I have to be in a wider place. And so immigration was a hot issue. And I noticed this real divide between people's actual, not people, Whitepians' actual thoughts on immigration and what was happening in Washington. And the final thing I'll say about this is even back then, I could tell the Democrats had a tin ear on this issue and they had no humane, effective narrative about immigration, let alone a solution.

26:35What would be a more affirmative vision or affirmative path forward on this topic that you feel like maybe both parties are not quite grasping? At the time, I said, Democrats, you have to do two things. You have to have a realistic, humane solution that is fair to immigrants, but realizes that people who are actually dealing with immigration are having two different experiences, right? In other words, they're Democratic politicians. They've never been to a DMV. They're not sending their kids to public school. They're not using public parks. And so they don't understand these gripes, real and unreal, that are being made up about immigration.

27:24And so searching for Whiteopia way back in the day said that Democrats should stop waiting, should stop hemming and hawing, and they should thread that needle. But now, 2025, we know what the result is. What are the big ways that you feel like the U.S. political landscape has changed since you wrote Whiteopia? And is there any way back to nuance and a humane path forward? At least not only would I like nuance, I would like basic safety. When I went to Coeur d 'Alene, Idaho, for example, I crashed a retreat of white separatists and supremacists. I would never do that now. So one of the ways life has changed is not only the lack of nuance, but the lack of basic safety.

28:20I would never go into the heart of MAGA land now in 2025 in the way that I was perfectly comfortable to do so in 2006. And so just the violence, the rhetoric, the lies, the stupidity, frankly, that's the huge change. I have a dear older twin sister you'll trust with anything. And there was one time in two years I felt even remotely out of danger. And I said to her, if you don't hear from me by this hour, just text me. But now I don't think what I did would be particularly safe for me now. Oh, my gosh. Throughout your book, you explore the really deep roots that colonialism and imperialism have in current affairs, both in the U.S.

29:18and globally. There's so few of us who haven't been touched by it one way or the other. So can you see how it takes form in the racist and xenophobic attitudes and stereotypes against groups like Haitians, really attitudes that played a role in the 2024 election, which we didn't even really talk about yet, and that continue to shape public policy today? I really feel like this book is a testament to the truth and reality of intersectionality and how maybe everything is really more connected than it seems and that we don't all exist in vacuums and on islands. So reflecting on the past, what do you feel like you've learned that feels relevant to this current moment?

29:56Thank you for pointing that out, the way that, in your words, we're all touched by colonialism, because I think many people don't realize that. And that is really an undercurrent in this book, is how we are all touched by colonialism, even if our grandfathers were never president of a colonial country. We are all touched by colonialism. And for me, the horrifying resonance of that today is when Trump starts spewing his nonsense about Haitian immigrants eating pets. when Trump starts spewing his nonsense that we have the right to retake the Panama Canal. When Trump starts spewing his nonsense about Greenland, it's based in a colonial expansionist mentality.

30:55And the fancy word for that is American exceptionalism, where this country is so exceptional and so good that we have the right to behave any dastardly way we please that might makes right. And so in all our domestic lives and in the foreign policy that we're facing today, colonialism is rearing its head in an ugly way again. And it's all of our problem, as you point out. Yeah. Okay. We have so many member questions. So are you ready to dive in? Yeah, I'm ready. Okay. From Benji W., how has your experience as a Black American of Haitian descent started to change since finishing and publishing this book?

31:42What would the epilogue be if you wrote one? So it's changed to more pride. And one incident for me that really captured that is I was signing books at the New York Public Library. And a woman who appeared to be in about her 60s said, Hello, my name is Danielle. And the reason my name is Danielle is my mother was pregnant as your grandfather was running for president in 1957. And my mother was such a fan of him that she named me after him. And to see that woman all these years later in New York City at a book signing, that's how my attitude has changed. It was a really special kind of shocking moment.

32:34Yeah, so touching. From Victoria Kaye, in your research, did you come across historical narratives that were distorted or left out entirely? And how can we ensure a fuller, more inclusive telling of history? Yes, yes, yes. You know, mainstream, often, white historians will say, oh, the Kako Rebellion ended in 1920. But if you ask actual Haitians, they say the rebellion went on well into the 1920s. So that's a concrete example of two differences of history and how mainstream establishment historians will write history one way. But the people who actually lived it have a better, more nuanced version of history.

33:27And so the book has to reconcile their version also. And how do we ensure a more full and inclusive account? We have to write our own books. We have to write our own books. Yeah, I believe that honestly. I'm not trying to be glib. If there is a story that hasn't been written, a through line, a history, a narrative that hasn't been written, we must be the ones to write it. I love that. Okay, from toward R. As a cultural critic, what role do you think storytelling plays in addressing societal divisions? indispensable. I think the role of storytelling is indispensable. Stories are memorable. Stories are healing.

34:21Stories are powerful. And stories speak to each other. You know, statistics don't relate us. But I hope when people buy this book, the stories, even if you have no Haitian blood, But if you've never been anywhere in New York City, if you've been anywhere near the Western Hemisphere, I still hope the stories speak to you. So stories are indispensable. Yeah, that's a great message to our very global TED audience. Next question is from Ketakandriana R. She says, where do you get your inspiration from, Rich? Do you think AI will break humanity's ability to write stories? And if that's possible, what can we do to avoid that?

35:04Yeah. So I get my inspiration from other art and from other artists in my community. And in these digital technology days, I recommend that people have a real-life, close, creative community. And more specifically, you know, I have a sculptor in my community. I have other writers in my community. I have musicians and painters, and their creativity kind of shakes my head loose, provokes new ideas, provokes new ways of thinking of something. So if I hear a beautiful tune, it helps me to think about words better. If I see a beautiful sculpture, it helps me to think about words better. So that's what works for me personally.

35:55That's what inspires me is the creativity and the successes of others. And AI, in my belief, is horribly detrimental to this. And I'm not one of these anti-AI Luddites. But for me, the problem with AI is that it's so passive. It's so passive. And for me to have a creative life, a creative mind, is I have to be very proactive in seeking the friendships and the community that really get my brain synapses sparking. Yeah, that's such a reminder, powerful reminder to really nurture our creative communities, no matter what kind of work you're making. What would you say to people who are leaving their countries and cultures behind?

36:49There continues to be so much migration across the world. Yeah. For me, it means if you intend to stay in the country, deeply learning the language, deeply learning the culture, deeply understanding the culture, well, never ever again being bullied into dismissing or looking down upon the culture that you left, which has been the case for most of our history in America. Yeah, a demand for assimilation.

37:50culture strictly on and on and on. So that's my advice. Yeah. All right. Next question is from Mariana A. Mariana asks, how do you honor your story when it's been really painful and you might want to change your reality? I don't think of this as a trauma narrative at all. I mean, they're funny scenes. And what I land on without giving away the conclusion or anything is, This is a book about survivors. It's a book about people who are resilient, who, thrown into this context, really make a way out of no way. And for me, an example of that is my mother's choice of profession, is that she had this experience, and then professionally she became this type of human being.

38:43So it's to acknowledge, to look for the examples of survival and resilience and joy that exist in all of our stories. That's lovely. All right, before we wrap, Rich Benjamin, I wonder if we could end with you reading a short passage that you wrote at the end of your first chapter. As my mother ages, I worry I am squandering a vanishing chance to really know her, our history. My family's existence in Haiti, those disremembered years, dwell like a caesura in our minds, lost stanzas in an epic poem. If ever I am to understand my mother, I must speak to that void. Beautiful passage. And I really feel like your book has spoken to that void in a beautiful and powerful way.

39:39Rich, thank you so much for writing it and for being with us today. Thank you, Elise. Thank you, everybody. Until next time. Bye for now.

39:53That was Rich Benjamin in conversation with me, Elise Hu, for the TED Talks Daily Book Club, hosted in partnership with our TED membership team. Thank you to our wonderful TED members for joining our live virtual event from around the world. Finally, we'd love for you to be part of our next live book club event. So just sign up for a TED membership at go.ted.com slash membership. You'll get live access to virtual podcast recording sessions and the chance to ask authors like Rich Benjamin your burning questions. And that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced by Lucy Little and edited by Alejandra Salazar.

40:32Production support from Joel Pannis, Cinnamon Horn, Alexandra Silati, and Nava Guaraca. The TED Talks Daily team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, and Tanzika Sangmarnivong. Additional support from Emma Tomner and Daniela Balarezo. I'm Elise Hugh. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening. Thank you.