The hidden cost of buying gold | Claudia Vega

0:07You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. Today's talk is part of our new 2025 TED Fellows Films, adapted for podcast, just for our TED Talks daily listeners. We'll be releasing these special episodes, showcasing our amazing fellows on certain Fridays throughout the rest of 2025 and into the new year. So definitely stay tuned. The TED Fellows program supports a network of global innovators, and we're so excited to share their work with you. Today, we'd like you to meet rainforest toxicologist and TED Fellow, Claudia Vega.

0:42What do penguins, the Amazonian rainforest, and the gold in your watch have in common? It turns out, mercury. Running a world-class lab in the middle of the Peruvian Amazon rainforest, Claudia studies the effects of mercury pollution from illegal artisanal gold mining, highlighting an urgent environmental and public health problem with far-reaching impacts. She shares what led her to the rainforest, what she's learned from the indigenous communities she's worked with, and why it's imperative to understand that what happens in the Amazon matters to all of us everywhere. After we hear from Claudia Vega, sting around for her conversation with TED Fellows Program Director Lily James Olds.

1:24It's coming up.

1:34Since I was little, I always loved nature. I always love the feeling of being in a forest. For me, the forest is more valuable than gold. My name is Claudia Vega, and I work in the Peruvian Amazon. I'm studying mercury contamination due to artisanal gold mining in Madre de Dios. I think people are not aware that sometimes the gold that you buy maybe is poisoning the rainforest in the Amazon or other tropical areas. About 20 % of the gold producers in the world come from artisanal gold mining. It's not that small. And when you say artisanal, it's not because it's natural. It's called artisanal because they don't use fancy equipment.

2:15They have a very rustic way. People have been doing that since their gold rush in California. They were using mercury. So the technique hasn't advanced that much since then. Mercury is used because it's an easy way to extract the gold. So what the miners do is the gold is like a sandy, in a sandy form, and it's usually in the sediment of the rivers. They put mercury. The mercury binds with gold. Then they have the amalgam, which is a mix of gold and mercury. And then they burn the amalgam, and then the mercury just evaporates to the air, and they got the gold. When they're doing the mixing with gold, some of the mercury goes into the river.

3:00It's easy to evaporate. You don't have to heat it. It goes to the air and it can be transported long distance. This happens mainly in the tropics and is the biggest anthropogenic source of mercury in the planet. Around 1 ,400 tons of mercury annually is released to the environment because of artisanal gold mining. It's an international concern and it's not because it harms just the place where it's used. For example, there are even very high levels of mercury in the whales, in the beluga whales in the Arctic. In Madre de Dios, about 130 ,000 hectares has been deforested because of artisanal gold mining.

3:45It is a big operation. You can see huge areas of rainforests just deforested. It looks like a desert with mining ponds. There are artificial lakes. and in the middle of a lot of desert. There's no tree, there's no animals. It looks like the moon, kind of, because it's just, there's no vegetation. Mercury is an element, we cannot destroy it. It's a potent neurotoxin. It can affect the neurosystem. Also can give you headache, can give you problem of memory. It can give you insomnia. It can harm children during pregnancy. could have a baby who will have learning disabilities. Depending how much is disposed, it can even have malformation.

4:33Mercury is called the silent toxin because it takes a while to show effects. Minabata Bay in Japan is a more iconic case of mercury poisoning. In 1932, there was a company that was releasing mercury into the bay. It took about 25 years to show the effects in people. About 1 ,000 people died, and until now, they have certified like 10 ,000 people that were affected. So people didn't know they were being intoxicated, and they didn't feel it. But at the end, they had the symptoms, and people died. WHO says that mercury is one of the top 10 chemicals that are a major concern for public health. Centro de Innovación Científica Amazonica, which is Amazonian Center for Scientific Innovation.

5:24We implement the first mercury lab in the Peruvian Amazon, and it's in the middle of the rainforest. It's in the middle of the jungle. We produce science. It's also communicating the science to people that are not scientists in a way that they can have information to take better decisions. We work with miners and also explain to them the dangers of mercury, and with indigenous people also explain to them how they can avoid being exposed. And also we work with politicians so they can base their decision in science. Fish is the main source of protein for indigenous people in the Amazon. They are exposed to very high levels of mercury through consuming contaminated fish.

6:03They have like one of the highest levels reported right now. So one thing that we do with them, we explain to them that they have to choose safer fish. Sometimes it's very difficult because you don't have the right answer for them. I mean, they're in their home, and then a strange people come telling them that what they are eating is poison. But I think information is power, and having the right information makes you do the right decision. So we insist in that, giving the information and repeat the information. Some of the miners tell us, like, I have been doing this for 30 years, so I'm good.

6:41I ask them like, do you sleep? Do you have headache? Do you forget things more often? And also mercury sometimes can increase the chance of having cardiovascular disease. So maybe some of the people have high pressure and they don't know why. It could be because of mercury. And some of them, they're changing for a more responsible way of mining. Some other miners, maybe they know, but they don't care because they need money. And gold is money. There are no incentive to produce mercury-free gold. People just buy gold. They don't care. There's no good traceability system. So I think as a consumer or as a mediator of gold trade, we have to care about where gold is coming from.

7:30Sometimes we use tint and we don't even know how much impact it has in the world. At the end, we have one health, one planet, and everything is connected. When you're affecting the environment, you can affect the animal's health and then human health too. So for me, my dream is like people can see the value of the forest. It's actually doing something for us. It's producing air. It's producing water. That's more valuable than gold. I know gold is valuable, but you cannot eat it. You cannot breathe it. And you cannot drink it.

8:12And now a special conversation between Claudia Vega and TED Fellows Program Director, Lily James Olds, coming up right after the break.

8:26Hi, Claudia. Welcome. I'm really looking forward to talking to you today. Hi, Lily. Well, thank you for inviting me. And it is really nice to see you after, I don't know how many months. I know. It's so nice. Okay. So before we dive into all of the work you do, I'd love to just know a little bit more about how you first got into this work. I know that you first trained as a vet, right? And that then you worked in Guatemala and that later you moved to Brazil to study diseases and marine animals, I think, which eventually led you to working with penguins. So I would love if you could just share your amazing winding path that brought you from researching penguins to researching mercury.

9:12Yeah, I am a vet, a veterinary. I study in Guatemala. And when I started to study veterinary, I always wanted to work with wildlife animals. For me, like dogs and cats was not like, you know, I have to study them, but it was not the option that I wanted. I did some training in some zoos in Mexico. And then when I finished veterinary, I was working in a wildlife conservation center that was treating animals from confiscating for trafficking. And it was really frustrating because you're just receiving all these animals that are in bad shape and trying to cure them. That's not changing anything. The animals keep coming and coming.

9:53And I was like, how can we make a change? Like, how can I make people think like the environment where the animals live matters? And I talked with another vet, wildlife vet, and he told me epidemiology is what I should be studying, like studying the causes of diseases or the causes of damage. So I did my master in public health and environment. and my supervisor was a marine biologist and he was telling me about these penguins because in Rio Genaro during the winter, you have a lot of penguins at some beaches. And he told me like, we should study what is going on with these penguins. And we decided to study heavy metals, cadmium, lead and mercury.

10:37And yeah, that's how I started studying mercury. That's amazing. Yeah. After I finished my PhD and having this study of Mercury in the Amazon, I was kind of getting to a point that I wanted to divorce science because I felt like writing papers or publishing papers, it wasn't changing anything. So I was kind of like questioning myself, like, what is science for? And when I was at that moment, I met the executive director of the center I'm working on. I met him in a Mercury conference. And then he told me about the idea that they wanted to produce science information for decision makers to actually change things.

11:22And they told me, like, they were starting the center and they needed a Mercury program coordinator. So that's how I moved to Rio Madre de Dios in the middle of the Peruvian Amazon. I mean, I think what's really inspiring to me about that is that you're doing this work and then you're asking the question, you know, wait a second, how can I actually go one step further back to where this problem started and work to address it? In some ways, it sounds like what led you to the mercury research. Well, I was supposed to study a disease in primates at the master, but then I just found mercury. Just, I mean, like, it just happened, like, spontaneously.

12:01And like, you know, penguins at the beach. Well, it was like, I don't know, more interesting, I will say. Yeah. Okay. So I know that the world-class mercury testing lab that you helped establish in the heart of the Peruvian Amazon, I mean, from what you've shown me, it just, it looks amazing. And I know that it's the first of its kind. I would love for you to talk a little bit more about why you think it's important to do this scientific work locally in the Amazon instead of just taking the samples back to a lab in a major city? Because it's such a lift, obviously. It's like this Herculean thing to build a world-class lab in the middle of the Amazon.

12:43Why do you think that is so important? Well, first, before we implemented that lab, anything that you needed to analyze, you have to send it first to Lima or send it to another country. Like it was that hard. And like just sending the sample like outside Peru, that is not that easy. And to take the samples is already take times. And then you have to ship it to another place. That complicates everything. So we thought like having the capacity in the site that we need to study, I mean, it's better. Like you can have the answer faster. And also like one of the things that usually happen that researchers from other places just come to the place that has the problem, they diagnose and then they go away.

13:32Right. We need to have local capacity in the places where the problems are happening, because we need to to empower the people in the place, because at the end, they are the ones that are suffering the consequence. So I think producing the information, know how to produce the information, that's also empower people in the local community and that makes change. Yeah, absolutely. And how has doing this work in that capacity and way changed the conversations with the communities that you work with? I guess also the policymakers? What are the kind of learnings and what can you share with us that has shifted as you've done this work in that different way on the ground and really bringing the science to where you're doing the research locally?

14:19So I think it has changed the conversation a lot. Like when I started, people kind of knew a little bit of Mercury, but right now we have more information and people are talking about it. Like just two months ago, we released the results of a study in the north part of the Peruvian Amazon. And we have been in the news like for one and a half months. I mean, like people want to know about it. If people don't know what is happening, they cannot look for a solution. So having the information is really important. And there's a convention for reducing mercury in the world, the Minamata Convention. Like our data is the first data that they have from places that have artisanal gold mines going on, because they usually don't have that data because it's hard to do the work in those places.

15:06So we're showing results locally, national and international. I think that can produce change. What is something that's truly surprised you that you've discovered through doing your research? Knowing that information and seeing that information can make changes. Like, for example, when I go with the communities or the indigenous people, like when I explain to them, like, where the mercury is, how it concentrates, like how there are safer fishes and there are ones that are more, you know, risky to eat. For example, a mother that she understood the youngest child that has three years old. He was the one with higher levels of mercury.

15:53And when we give the talk, she understood because the fish that the kid loved to eat is the one that has more mercury. And she understood that. And I told her like, well, now, even though he cries, don't give that fish to him. And she understood the information and she was like, ah, now I understand. If you're telling what to do to reduce this pressure, I mean, you can be changing the person's life. It's not that surprised me. It's just like it really made me keep going. Like, I know it's hard, but I know we can do changes if we keep trying. I think there's so much in what you just said also about communication and about trust, right, with the local communities that you're going into and where you're doing this research.

16:39What are some of those conversations like? How do you build trust in that capacity with these communities that you're working with? Well, we go to them before starting a study. We have to ask them if they want to do it. We usually go one or two times to the place and explain what we want to do. We send like a letter for the leader of the community and ask them if they want to do it. So we talked with them. And then like when I promised something, I really tried to do it in the time that I promised. And like I told them, like, we're going to come back this month to bring the results. We went back.

17:18We give the result one by one. We're playing to the people. We stayed there and we were there to answer questions. And they told us thank you. They were really grateful because they told us like people usually come and they don't give back the results. So I think like having the relationship with the community show up and, you know, deliver what you promise. I think that's very important. No, that makes a lot of sense. You're following through on your commitment and sharing the information that you're gathering. What have you learned from the indigenous communities that you work with in the Amazon?

17:54What are some of the things that they've taught you that you carry with you? There are a lot of things. And I think like it's a process that never ends. I'm still learning a lot. Like, for example, the last time that I went to the communities and told them that the results that were not that good, like they were supposed to high risk of mercury, one told me like, so doctor, what, now I die? Like, I was like, what should I do? When you go there and see the situation that they have and you like giving them another problem to worry, they have other problems to solve. I'm still like thinking in a way, Like, how can we make a difference for them?

18:33And I think that's one of the things that we're doing right now is try to empower more the community. Like, for example, the next step is training them to do it, for them to produce information. And we're trying to create a system that they can show these results. So they are aware. And like, also, you're taking advantage of the indigenous knowledge, right? Because sometimes, as a researcher, usually we stay like 10 days, for example. But you're not able to observe everything. And they know much more than us. Like, we have to use their knowledge. So we're trying to find how can science and indigenous people work together and we learn from each other.

19:12You know, you were talking a minute ago about how you're making change both on a local and global level. I had no idea before I met you that artisanal gold mining is not a small-scale operation, right? The word artisanal makes you think it's some small organic thing and that it is not. And that, in fact, it's responsible, as you say, for nearly 20 % of the world's gold. Is there a way to mine gold without using mercury? And if so, what does that look like? And why don't more operations use this method? If you do it in a non-artisanal way, it would be with cyanide, which is like also a dangerous substance.

19:57But - Yeah, I was going to say that doesn't sound much better than mercury. Yeah, yeah. The thing is like, it's usually like big companies that use it and there's a way to treat it. The difference between mercury and cyanide, that mercury is an element, so you cannot destroy it. But cyanide is like a compound so you can like break it down and reduce the toxicity, which is what the big companies do. But to do that, They need a lot of water. They need like big processing plants. And, you know, it takes more money and space to do that. I see. So you can't do that on a small scale. The mercury is really the only option if you're a smaller miner or company to do it.

20:38So it's an option. I will say it's an easy option because you don't need to be trained to do it. Like there are other techniques, there's shaking tables and there are like different techniques, but you need to be trained. And mercury is very simple. You just put it, see the amalgama, and then you burn it. It's easy to do. I mean, it's the same methodology that was used in the gold rush in California a long time ago, right? I mean, do you think that a solution would be to provide more training to these miners in alternative methods? So there are miners that are trying. And the thing is, like, there are technologies, but you have to change behaviors.

21:18miners think that that's the way that they know they think that's the way it should be and you have to first convince them that it's a better method because at the end everything is money right and they think mercury is efficient and you have to prove them because it is efficient but it's not that efficient there are other methods that are more efficient but you have to prove to them and then you have to change the behavior so that's the tricky thing and also at least in Madre de Dios the miners they work separate there are other places like in colombia they do like little associations and like a group of miners work and they can have the shaking table like owned by several miners but here they work different so it's a slow process but we found a group that are women and they are trying to do the right thing i mean like not using mercury changing technology and also try to implement restoration techniques after the mining.

22:19That's really interesting. I was going to ask, what are some examples that you've seen of changes in behavior based on the conversations you've had and the work that you've done? Do you have other examples? We're trying to look for this champion. We call it champion that I think there are some people that are trying to do it. But one of the things that they say a lot is sometimes it's easier and cheaper to be illegal than legal. I mean, you don't have a government system that encouraged to be legal, to be honest. Because, I mean, if you're legal, you have to pay taxes. You have to do a lot of things for the workers and everything.

22:55And you sell the gold and it's the same price as the one that is produced in an illegal way. So it's kind of difficult. But there are people that are trying to do the right thing. And one of the things that we try to do is find these people and make them talk to each other. Because sometimes you just come from outside. I mean, I can talk, but I'm not the one that is in the mind. If another minder come and talk to them and share the experience, I think that can do more change. And what role do you think governments, consumers, just period, consumers, what role do you think all of us have in this?

23:31I'm just curious, you know, as you said, it's slow work, it's long-term work. You're doing it one conversation and test at a time. What else can be done to, I guess, speed up this process of change? I think there are different parts of the chain that need to be addressed. Like the producer, which are the miners, the ones that receive the gold, that will be like the gold trade. Like they should be certified that the gold is produced in a legal way, right? There are some initiatives that are trying to, you know, to have the certification, but it's still going slow. And then we have the final consumer.

24:15Like the gold is produced here in the Amazon, but it's not consumed here. We know like a lot of the gold go through Switzerland to other places. We should be asking where the gold was produced, how it was produced. There's not enough awareness to care about where the gold is coming from. I mean, there are places that they buy gold, they don't care about where it's coming from. It has to be more awareness. Right. So right now that doesn't exist in the way that, you know, I know there's a different knowledge in terms of diamonds and where's the provenance. That doesn't exist right now in terms of gold.

24:52It does, but it's hard to do the traceability. Right now, there's not an effective way to trace gold. That's one of the problems. Because the thing is, like, if you have, like, a gold produced with mercury, and then you have another one that is produced in a clean way, then you just melt it, and you have a mix of gold. And, like, there's no way to trace it. Yeah, I mean, I think that touches on so much, right, of, like, this idea of how do you get people, And again, this is climate crisis overall, right? How do you get people to care about something that they might not think affects their life, right?

25:32I mean, this is obviously zoomed out much bigger question. But how do you think about that in terms of having these conversations with people who don't think this might necessarily touch their lives? And yet clearly it does. It affects all of us. Yes. Like when I give a talk or a presentation, I usually try to figure out how I make the problem their problem, too. And usually, for example, when I talk with women, I start with a famous picture of the Minamata disaster, which is the first case of mercury intoxication. And you have a mother holding her children with malformation. And that's how we start, for example.

26:09Like I try to show that it's something that can affect them. And one thing that I usually mention, like, for example, in the U.S., pregnant women are advised not to consume tuna. Right, right. And the reason is because of mercury. So it's like you say, it's not just in the Arctic, it's in all the oceans. And all of us consume fish from the ocean. Mercury doesn't stay just in the Amazon. It can travel. So if we keep emitting mercury, the levels will keep raising. It could affect all of us. I think I tried to show that. No, that's so fascinating. So now we've talked about consumers, we've talked about miners.

26:52I'm also curious to hear from you what role do you think, or I guess responsibility within that, do governments need to play? And also do the mining companies need to play? And what is that process of creating movement there, trying to have those individuals and organizations create change? So it's a very complicated situation because, yeah, first of all, right now in Peru, the government is kind of trying to encourage artisanal gold mining. And there's a formalization process, which is you make a minor legal. This process started in 2001. and it's still going right now. I mean, like, it's so ineffective that it's not doing what it should be doing, like really giving fiscalized process for responsible minors.

27:49It's not doing what it should be doing. I mean, it's not just doing laws. It's applying to them to see if they're being a follower or not. And I don't know if in the U.S. it's like that, but in Latin America, they love to write laws, a lot of laws, and the law is just written. It's not applied. And are there incentives that you've seen work? In Peru, not really. To be honest, not really in Peru. Yeah, it's kind of difficult. And about the legal miners of the big company, right now the illegal mining is just so out of control that even the legal miners, the big company, are starting to be affected.

28:32So they're also like trying to push the government to do something. That's how the situation is in Peru right now. It's kind of difficult. I really love when you say, Claudia, that we can't eat, drink or breathe gold. I think that's such a powerful line connected to what we're talking about. Given that many miners obviously depend on gold for their livelihood, what does a sustainable future look like? Like, you know, one that would both protect the Amazon, stop this widespread mercury pollution, and also support the people who rely on mining to survive. I mean, first of all, we need mining. That's a fact.

29:10Not just gold mining, like every metal mining. All of us use the different metals. So there are ways to do it in a more responsible way. Because for me, green mine or green gold doesn't exist. It's like responsible mine. We need to know like mining is a resource that will stop. I know it's difficult, but we have to have conscience of like, maybe you're mining now, but I don't know if your kid will be able to mine or the kid will be able to have the resources. So we have to find other ways to take advantage of the forest. Like, for example, study more plants and see if we can use the plant for something else.

29:51So the way I see it is like there should be mining, but do it in a responsible way. And you have to respect some place. I know miners that they have this land and there are places that even though they know there's gold, they won't mine there because they know they need the forest too. So if they do it in that way, I think it could be done. We have to figure out that there are places that you cannot do mining, even though there's a lot of gold. because there are other valuable things in the forest. And we have to give value to other things because for me, the goal is not the more valuable thing of the forest.

30:31Right. I mean, like, that has to count for something. I love that. Okay, last question. I'd love to hear what is something you're really scared of right now and also what is something that is giving you hope? Wow. No big deal. Yeah. Well, actually, I'm really scared of fake news because that's what slowed the change. Because people take information that is not real and they take decisions based on that. Because everybody can be a victim of that. Yeah. When we are thinking in strategy, I always say, like, we should learn how to disseminate information the way that fake news do that. Because if we learn that, maybe we can compete.

31:19And what gives me hope? Like, I mean, I know the problems are complex, but if we don't do anything, it will continue. Even though it's a small change, but it's worth it. Because not doing nothing is worst. I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. So yeah, that's what gives me hope. I love that. Well, thank you so much for this conversation, Claudia. I'm always, I think, really obviously inspired by your work. But I think just the way that you so articulately connect the dots on how everything really is connected, how we all are connected. And these are not just problems happening somewhere else, that they are all of our problems.

32:02As you said, it's been really illuminating. Thank you. And also thank you for all the work that you guys are doing, because you guys are trying to show these stories. And thank you for that. It's a pleasure. Can't wait for the next conversation, Claudia.

32:21That was Claudia Vega, a 2025 TED Fellow. To learn more about the TED Fellows program and watch all the TED Fellows films, go to fellows.ted.com. And that's it for today. This episode was produced by Lucy Little, edited by Alejandra Salazar, and fact-checked by Eva Dasher. The audio you heard at the top comes from the short film made by Divya Gdenghi and Owen McLean, story edited by Corey Hajim, and produced by Ian Lowe. Video production manager is Searing Dolma. Additional support from Lily James Olds, Leonie Horster, and Allegra Pearl. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. Our team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, and Tonsika Sungmarnivong.

33:04Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniela Ballarezzo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.

33:23Thank you.