Andrew Huberman, Ph.D. (Part 1)

25:36That's kind of typical. But I think when we start to like look at our biology, you can go, most everything is governed by the circadian rhythms. And sunlight is by far the most potent factor in all of this. You go, how is it the most potent better? Well, because it sets up cortisol, it sets up melatonin, which sets up serotonin, which sets up, you know, and the morning cortisol boost, by the way, as associate with increases in dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine. And so you start to think all the things that we're chasing with pharmacology. And it tends to be one, one, or two of these little slices.

26:11But you start anchoring to sunlight and darkness in the right way. And it's a promise that I can make anyone. If you start doing those things regularly, everything else will be significantly better. And for many people, it resolves everything. For some people, they still need to tweak certain things. And you still need to exercise, you still need to write and all that good stuff, but these are such powerful levers. No one on earth, even if they only need four hours of sleep at night, which is exceedingly rare, but no one on earth escapes circadian rhythm. No one. It is the... It's how we're programmed.

26:42It's how we're programmed. It is the most important aspect of our biology. Full stop. So the hacks would be things like wearing sunglasses, which would prevent the natural relationship to the environment or lathering on sunscreen, which would prevent our ability to do what nature has programmed us to do, or watching television at night, staring at a screen in the dark. Right. A bright screen at night. Yeah, and we can touch into each of these, and I think now, in a way that we couldn't a few years ago because there are more data. So for instance, the sunscreen thing, let's just deal with this head on.

27:24because nothing is created more unnecessary drama than the sunscreen description. Let's just talk about what's undisputed. A physical barrier can help. If you're concerned about excessive UV, a physical barrier, and you say, well, what physical barrier? Well, people wear light -colored clothes which reflect all the wavelengths. That's why white reflects all the wavelengths. Black absorbs all of them. That's why you feel hotter in dark clothing than you do in light clothing. And if you just say, okay, what's the best way to get the best of what the sun has to offer when it's very intense? At a time when it would be almost uncomfortable to be outside.

28:06You wear light -colored clothing, and that Glen Jeffrey paper shows that the long wavelength light permeates your clothing and still stimulates your mitochondria in ways that you want. How do you know if you're getting the right stuff from the sun? Because it feels warm. because you can feel the heat. That infrared does long wavelengths of light. Those are what provide heat. That's it, you know, this is why people have infrared sonas and this kind of thing. The short wavelength light, you're not gonna feel the heat from, this is why on an overcast day, it feels colder because all the infrared stuff is eliminated.

28:37So, you know, that stuff about sunscreen that people argue so much, I mean, I think it's very clear that the chemicals in chemical -based sunscreens, they go transdermal and they cause issues. And a few years ago I said this and I was attacked pretty vehemently until I had a dermatologist who's a Durham oncologist. So he literally studied skin cancer on my podcast, Dr. Teo Soleimani. And he said to me, he's telling me super interesting. He said, the deadly melanomas don't come from sun exposure. And I was like, this is a dermatologist telling me this. The deadly melanomas do not come from sun exposure.

29:16I'm like, that is crazy. Like, is that true? He said, yeah, that's why we find them on the bottoms of people's feet between their toes. I think it was Bob Marley that I think died of a melanoma between his toes. It's on the places that don't get much sun exposure. That's interesting. That's interesting. And then there are these other mutations in skin that can occur with excessive UV. And it's when people have too much UV exposure and they haven't been conditioned for the UV exposure. And so this is where some people opt for a mineral -based sunscreen. They opt for like a zinc or some people will even use a clay type sunscreen, but here's the thing nobody likes those because they're grainy.

29:53And I said, why don't, you know, why don't people just like default to those? He said, oh, because you can't put it on over makeup. So you start to look at the reasons why people like don't do the right things and you go, this is crazy. This is vanity is what it really is. And look, I'm not a dermatologist, but now I've talked to him several times and I did a podcast episode about this. And so I'll stand up to anyone in the standard medical profession who says, you're saying you want people to get skin care. Of course I don't want people to get skin cancer, but we have to be rational about this.

30:25And everyone agrees that a light color physical barrier, if you're super concerned about this, can help. Like I was hiking in the Osemity Mountains, it was a very high altitude. And I did wear a hat because I found it hard to see otherwise. My eyes were not conditioning for how bright it was that day. And I did feel at times I was overly warm, so on my arms and on my legs, and it was fatiguing me, so I wore a light -colored, long -sleeved shirt. That felt great. And I could still feel some of the warmth of the sun and get those long -waver length rays. And you didn't put any chemicals into your bloodstream?

31:00No, I didn't. Because I'll be 50 next month, and I've been around long enough to realize that the deep bug spray that we were told to put on a high concentration when we were at summer camp, the junk that was added to so much of our food and our detergents and these other things. Well, they're not the only basis of modern health issues. They're a huge basis. And I'm also, I'm very tired of the kind of response when somebody like me says that, I'm not saying there aren't a bunch of other things that are useful, but there seems to be something like a deliberate contortion of the messaging nowadays where if you care about the food supply or you care about microplastics or you care about not slathering your skin with chemicals that somehow that makes you anti -science or medicine, that is ridiculous.

31:59I stopped using, like it or not, I stopped using deodorant a long time ago because my grandfather, who was a nutritional biochemist, he told me that there were things that could go transdermal and you got a lot of, you know, the armpits are at the skin there is very permeable to things. I was concerned about that. I also have used non -fragurant soaps for a very long time because my skin would react to it. I had a very like irritated reaction to it. And then now we're learning I had several OBGYN and female endocrinologist on my podcast. And one of them, in in particular, who's a fertility dog, Dr.

32:35Natalie Crawford, who's just a brilliant physician and knows a ton about endocrinology and women's endocrinology in particular, she said that products that contain evening primrose oil, tea tree oil, and artificial synthetic forms of lavender are massive endocrine disruptors. She said if somebody puts it on every once in a while, perhaps not a problem, but if there are people that are slathering themselves with this stuff every single day. It's very ordinary. Fabric softness, detergents, they have those things in them. Exactly. And the argument is, well, my grandparents, you know, father and mother, and kids, and they slathered them.

33:16So, yeah, and if you look at people when they were in their 50s and 60s, you know, 30 years ago, they looked much more aged, much less healthy than they do now. And certainly, if you look at people who are in their 80s and 90s now, I mean, they're what we call escapeors. Like, these are people generally that didn't do the right things, but were able to push through all these challenges and more power to them. But just think about how much better life is when you're not altering your biology in these ways. Especially when the decision is to not do something, and that something is very optional.

33:52We're not talking about whether or not to drive a car, or use a smartphone at all. We're talking about things that, if anything, save costs to not do, and that perhaps have an outsized positive effect on our health. Like to me, I mean, I just maybe I'm talking like this because it's like perplexing me. Like why wouldn't people take steps in the right direction, but it's become so politicized and so touchy. I don't know. Maybe I'm just, maybe I'm still just baffled as to why people react in that way.

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35:57What do you think the other things that synthetic fragrances do that would line us staying away from them? Well, after having an expert in olfaction and chemical biology on my podcast, and no I'm so bold, I'm convinced that we are far more driven by our sense of smell and pheromones than we ever believed. He told me that we actually, our sense of smell is incredible. People are smelling themselves all day long, unconsciously. You're smelling your own odor cloud. People you know, you can sense fear and upset. and there's chemicals and tears of female spouses that are partners that are controlling testosterone levels and men.

36:40The smell on the back of a baby's head makes men more docile, to known chemical, and makes women more aggressive, very interesting. I mean, we're very chemical creatures and also the neurons that a respond to smell sit right behind what's called the crib reform plate. It's like a Swiss cheese shaped plate with little holes in it just at the back of your nose. And those neurons are very susceptible to odorance in the environment in ways that shape your cognition, your memory. I mean, it's fascinating, but you know, it's been shown over and over again now that when people on the inhale phase of a breath, people's memory for what they hear and see is much better than it is on the exhale.

37:20Wow, that's cool. The memory centers are primed to learn when we're inhaling. Wow. Yes, and not just about odors, which is incredible, right? So they've actually met it, so you can have people draw in longer and they'll remember more. And then you look at elements that they remember. They don't know that this is what's happening during the experiment and on the else, they just better encoders. Because inhaling was the primordial way that we learned about our environment before we had vision. Before we had hearing, you're sensing, is this an enemy? Is this someone there's some critter to mate with?

37:51Is this food environment? Is this a toxic environment? And so these patterns of breathing have a profound impact on what and how we can remember and encode new information. And so inhaling smell. Yeah, so like we're trying to walk you through the duty free and airports for me as a very noxious experience. I can smell it right now. Just thinking about it. Just thinking about it, I can smell it right now. It tends to kind of bombard my senses and I'll do it obviously. But yes, I hold my breath. smell is huge. And in fact, I think a lot of parabonding is based on smell. You know, just the smell of the person we love's skin gets into our brains and our biology at a level that I don't think any text message or gift can really compare to.

38:42And I think it's also why if you break up with someone that you didn't want to break up with or they break up with you or you're separated by something, the yearning for them and the time that it takes to quote -unquote get over them. I think a lot of it is your memory system not missing their smell anymore. I think it's a big part of it. People who lose a spouse say this. On a practical basis, what are decisions you've made to protect your factory system? What will you use? What won't you use? No -centred candles. If somebody gives me a scented candle, I gift it right back. And it's amazing how hard it is to find just candles that don't have any scent whatsoever.

39:21Deturgent, I want non -fragrance soap, I use non -fragrance soap. I also, I pay more attention now to what my old faction tells me. Like, does this person in environment smell right to me? Does it smell safe? Does it smell good? I know this sounds crazy, but as somebody who missed a lot of signals in the past, in certain environments and situations, when my eyes and ears were at very high acuity, I'm learning to tap into those kind of smell senses. It's funny, there's an old phrase, like, I don't like the smell of this. I don't like the way this smells, this stinks. It really is true. It's true.

39:58And, oh, and another way it's really impact me, it turns out that we have these olfactory receptors in our gut. Wow. So when you eat something, your gut lining is detecting the chemicals in those foods. It makes perfect sense when you think about it. You can't taste it anymore. It's already passed through your mouth. But your gut is figuring out, like, are the chemicals in this thing I'm breaking down? Do I like this? And if you like it, it will signal through your vagus nerve to a little cluster of neurons called the nodos ganglion. And that triggers to your dopamine reinforcement areas to pursue more of that food or drink.

40:36And it does it through smell. It does it through smell receptors, and taste receptors expressed in your gut. Wow. Not just in your mouth and nose. Right? Everyone knows that smell and taste are linked because if you lose your sense of smell, your taste suffers and vice versa. Like if you numb the mouth, your sense of smell changes. And if you have a stuffed up nose, your sense of taste changes. You have smelling taste receptors throughout your gut. And if you eat something that doesn't seem quite right, it doesn't even have to make you nauseous. Right? That's kind of the extreme. Your smell and taste receptors in your gut is it's breaking down that food, signal to areas of your brain, that then signal to the memory areas of your brain, like, hey, like maybe not next time.

41:15I don't like that food so much. Like, I come to loath the smell and taste of artificial truffles. Like, to me, it's like a blast for me compared to like real truffle, which smells delicious and earthy and rich. But that sometimes you'll find a salt that's truffle salt and it's synthetic. And it's like, ugh. And now if I were to even take a pinch of it out, it would be noxious. Yeah, so, but I think that learning to touch into these more primordial senses, I think it adds a layer to our experience. And I think it's really the foundation of our experience upon which our vision, our hearing, everything else is built.

41:56And we don't pay attention to it terribly often. So if someone washes their clothes with a scented detergent every day, In addition to the synthetic fragrance having a negative effect in a toxic way of the body, they also numb our ability when they're not there to really smell smells. That's right. That's right. No one went so far as to say, I love this. He said, you know, that all day long you're smelling yourself. People will do this. They'll catch them. You'll smell yourself. You kind of know, like you'll smell your shirt. He's like, I'm just gonna smell off today or people. And he said, we are constantly smelling ourselves, whether we admit it or not, whether we're aware of it or not, in ways that are giving ourselves feedback as to whether or not we're eating well, we're sleeping well, we feel well.

42:45And he said, how we respond to other people. You know, I had an offline conversation with him where he essentially said, you know, you hear so much these days about like, oh, you know, you got a picture relationship based on how it impacts your nervous system. I really like to say, like, here she calms my nervous system. My nervous system feels safe. We're not safe around this person. And we now accept that the gut feeling is very important. And people talk a lot about the gut feeling. Nomenine, we're having a discussion about the research that's been done on this. And people are losing touch with their sense of smell and their hormonal sense, because we're masking all of that.

43:24In our efforts to not smell anything bad, what we think is bad, or to just create these artificial odor clouds on us and other people and in the room, we were losing touch. It's like numbing our skin. It's really interesting what you said about gut feeling. It's another case where if we have a gut feeling about something, but we don't act on it, And we push down our internal voice to follow somebody's orders, let's say, or follow some rule that doesn't feel right in our body. Same thing happens. We start losing the ability to have those feelings anymore. That's right. If you push them down on a regular basis.

44:10Yeah, it's almost like they are innate until we suppress them and then we lose touch with them. Yeah. If I look back on my life, I think that 99 % of the really bad decisions I made were because I learned to override my innate sense in those situations. And this has reasons that relate to kind of my personal history, but like I think at an early age, I wasn't like the most daring kid, or I wasn't a kid to like hold the firecrackers until the very last second. And as I hit puberty and got high school in my 20s, I learned to override my fear response. And that was very useful in certain circumstances, like taking on challenging courses and things that, you know, it's important to lean into challenge, but I applied it too broadly.

44:59And now, part thanks to the encouragement of good friends and just understanding more about the biology of circadian rhythms and old faction. and he's like, quote, unquote, ancient systems that are very alive in us still, I've come to understand that like 99 % of life is just energetic. Like, does this make me feel good or not? And removing that cognitive assessment, like, do I want to be here? Like, maybe you just leave the same way a fish would leave water that was contaminated because it smelled the contaminants, and it would approach another fish. You know, long ago. The fish would never think I'm supposed to stay here, so I'll stay.

45:40Right. We're the only species that can think ourselves into trouble in that way. You know, physical contact, we're exchanging microbiome all day long. When you shake hands, when you hug, when you eat something, when you meet someone new, when you go into a new environment, you're exchanging microbiomes all the time. And the more intimate the relationship, the more an in -depth the exchange of microbiomes. So when people talk about quote unquote chemistry, I think that's what they're talking about. And I think we think ourselves into situations where I'm sure that if we were to take a step back, we'd be like, you know what?

46:09The chemistry was off, but I pushed myself in and through that. And I don't know a single person that doesn't come to regret those decisions. And I also don't know a single person who follows this deeper intuitive sense who says, oh, yeah, I wish I'd gone with a more cerebral decision. Because this is the same way that Steve Jobs will talk about kind of the character of objects or artists will talk about, and art critics will talk about the feeling of a piece. Or I hear you talk about the feeling of a musical piece or the chemistry of a band. And it's like to those of us that aren't musicians, it's like kind of vague.

46:49But I'm guessing I'm certain in fact that some of what was going on in the room when there was amazing chemistry with musical artists he worked with. Some of it was probably that they're literally secreting chemical odorants that feed back on them and feed their sense of well -being or creativity, whatever it is. I'm 100 % convinced. I wonder if that's why we like to go to certain events with large groups of people is to feel an energetic, a combined, energetic feeling that comes and maybe it is based on scent, even though we don't smell it on some level, some energetic presence that's generated by a group of people, especially group of people all into the same thing, like at a cancer.

47:33These systems are so sensitive, know them, who really is the world expert on this, will tell you that human beings have such a sensitive olfactory system that there are certain odorants that at the concentration of essentially one drop, an Olympic -sized swimming pool, You would be able to say that swimming pool doesn't smell like that swimming pool, even though you wouldn't know consciously what the difference was. One draw one? In the Olympic pool. In the Olympic size swimming pool. Anything to yourself, nah, that can't be. And this must be because it's like ammonia or is it an contaminant? No, it's because you have certain systems that are hardwired to be ultra -ultra -sensitive because they're important cues for information.

48:15So you could be at the concert, people are smoke, and we, people are dancing, people at B .O. So this person threw up, she's wearing perfume. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the odorants and pheromones that at tiny, tiny concentrations, your system is picking up on without your level of awareness, without any awareness, rather, and are shaping the way that you feel. They're ecstatic. I'm ecstatic. They're in bliss. I'm in bliss. They're calm. I'm calm. And this is a lot of what emotional contagion is about. It's hard to overstate just how powerful this is is because this came first, this came long before vision, long before hearing, long before touch even.

48:53It was smelling in Pharmaones first that evolved first. We know this based on all the biology. Then it was the detection of electric signals, like the lateral lines of fish, like who's nearby? Right? What an enormous important step in biology to not just, you don't have to contact something. You can detect it at a distance. You know if it's dangerous. You know if you want to approach it. Then came touch, then came hearing. Vision came last. Vision came last. And yet we're so visual as creatures. But the vision that we experience, what we think is beautiful or disgusting, or we just don't care for is layered on the foundation of opaction and pheromone detection.

49:35In the same way that what we think of as like happiness or sadness is layered on top of that circadian biology that we were talking about first. There's no escaping it. It's at our core. The rest is not just window dressing, it's also important, but this is like the central scaffold of how we work. It's interesting because so many people use a colon of perfume, and that immediately makes whatever natural essence you have, unreadable. Right. And many of those perfumes now and colognes are designed to include pheromone -like compounds to try and attract mates. I mean, they are the bullshit of interpersonal relations.

50:21They're like wearing a mask. And what I'm saying is the real information about whether or not that's a great mate, whether or not that's somebody that you're truly attracted to is their smell, is the power of their skin when there's nothing on it, is the kind of state that you tend to be in when they're near. Is it comforting? Does it arouse you? Does it stress you out? I've been around people that just stress me out for reasons I cannot understand. I'm convinced it's through the nose. 100 % convinced. Anything else about that feeling? You should talk about? Only that you can recover your sense of it very quickly.

50:58If you allow it to be free of these other things like perfumes. And if you stop overriding it for a short while because it's so primordial, it comes back fast. This is also the beauty of sunlight. It's like, you know, I get very frustrated as you can tell that when people call it hack, because if it were a hack, it wouldn't be the case that if you do it for two or three days, you feel significantly better. Like, significantly better in a way that very few things can compare to. So, wonderful thing about these primordial aspects, these foundational aspects of our biology, is that if you give them a chance, If you tap into them a little bit, you quickly learn to fall them because, like a new mother, who finds that they have a very intuitive sense of how to take care of their infant, you know how to work with this, but you have to become aware of it first.

51:47You have to let it work. You have to let it be present.

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53:29Tell me about the psychology of turning 50. Oh, man. I can't believe it. You made it. I made it. And when I say I made it, I've outlived my graduate advisor, who sadly died. She died very young at 50. Super sad. I outlived a lot of my friends because I grew up with a lot of maniacs who unfortunately despite being incredible people many of them ended up getting addicted to drugs A lot of them they killed themselves There's not a lot of like softer ways to put it super sad Awesome people if you think back to the friends of yours who committed suicide Would you say there's any thread running through them?

54:19intense fire. Like, you know, you hear this term, like, they're flame burned, right? Like, I think about one kid we grew up with as a kid that lived up the peninsula from us. He just had so much fire. Like, he just, for some reason, like, in, like, the ninth grade, he named himself Johnny Dagger and he was just so intense. He always had new music to share. Awesome skateboarder. He just, like, a ball of energy. challenging situation at home, et cetera, but just the rad as a kid. And I don't know what eventually brought them to the decision to take its life. I mean, it happened, I think it was right at 2016, 2017 transition.

54:58I have three friends. Johnny Faire, Aaron King, who was an amazing graffiti artist. He also went by Aaron Curry. He went by Orphan or FN, who when we were younger, just start tagging, doing graffiti, He is a bike messenger in San Francisco, escape order. And he did the most outrageous stuff, like he's so much energy. There's the most tunnel, the muni tunnel in San Francisco. There's very little space between the tracks and the walls. And he tagged orphan in like one inch high lettering, the entire length of the tunnel. Which many had to run back in and out, time it with the trains, he didn't do it all at once.

55:34He didn't commit suicide. He died of stomach cancer. in the same month that Johnny took his life. And then there are other friends, the three of them were in a tagging crew and a guy named John Eichelberry, who was Marvel. Eichelberry, unfortunately, a fentanyl overdose. And I went to the high school, gun high school, GUNN, and that is known for a lot of suicides. A lot of kids killed themselves, unfortunately, on the train tracks in Palo Alto. So it was after I graduated, but even in my sister's class, for some reason, it was like spinal meningitis and this and that hard attack. I mean, I can name it stiff let's singer.

56:10And you know, there are all these names of these kids. Like so many kids die. It's weird or kill themselves. And what do you think it is? I don't know. You know, it's interesting that for a guy like me who didn't grow up in the inner city, who was not in the military, it's really weird, right? Would notice that's like a third of my friends now, are like dead, dead grew up with. not the like neighborhood kids, but when I got in a skateboarding, I started going to San Francisco, so that expands your world. I don't know. I think the 90s were a complicated time where there were mental health issues.

56:49There were a lot of what they used to call broken homes. And it was new. We didn't know that many kids with divorced parents. I mean, I was one of the few ones in my school and then you started meeting more now. It's super common and it transcended income level too. So I don't know. I wish I had an answer to it. I think drugs definitely played a role. I was fortunate that I never really got into drugs or alcohol. I never liked it. You know, tried a few things here and there. Never hard drugs. I've never done hard drugs. Never really had an interest. I don't know, but you know, like that movie, Kids, you know, a bunch of my friends were in that.

57:24that Lovar McBride, there's this kid in there who talks about Osmox so much wheat, a hallucinia, that's Lovar, grew up with him. He's still alive as far as I know. Great skateboarder back when, Nick Lockman, I mean, you know, but Harold Hunter's dead. He was a really interesting looking guy. He got put in a lot of clothing ads and stuff. It was just wild times and they're just didn't seem to eat that many things to catch people if they were falling like he didn't know until someone checked out. It's sad. I mean, you asked what's the common thread. I'll say that, like, orphan Aaron, that guy showed up in our school.

58:03He was a foster kid, and he showed up in our school, and I was like, I gotta be friends with this guy. He had so much energy, and he was constantly drawing, and he was constantly doing awesome art. I once went over to his house, and he'd convert his entire room into a sculpture made out of cereal boxes, and he was like, living in the corner one. And now you'd be like, oh, well, okay, whatever. There was no YouTube. You just did it. So I think he just, you know, there's something in us when we're younger. You got, you know, some people just have that fire and I feel like it's compacted into fewer years.

58:37My undergraduate advisor, this guy, Harry Carlisle, he was an amazing teacher at UC Santa Barbara. He was the one that got me hooked into physiology of cold, cold thermogenesis, and essentially got me into neuroscience. It worked for him. He was an amazing guy. He was a quaker. I'll never forget. He showed us this video in class of a guy with schizophrenia who was acting wild and hallucinating and all this stuff. And he turned it off and we were talking about the biology of schizophrenia, what little was known, still very little is known. And I'll never forget what he said. He said, I kinda like the guy.

59:08And I'll say, what? And he said, you know, everybody's got a little light in them. And I remember thinking like it almost makes me well up. Like he had a real sensitivity of people. So I worked for him, went off to graduate school, published a paper in science, wasn't my first paper, but like in science, which is very, very stringent, like 99 % papers that get some neuroscience get rejected. So here I'm in graduate, so you know, you get first other paper in science. I'm super happy. So I write to him and I tell him, hey, got paper published in science. He was like, great, you know, next time you come through Sam Barbara, let's get together or something, and chat.

59:41And then like two weeks later, I get an email from another professor, we know the guy, blew his head off in the bathtub. Wow. And for years, I would go back down to Santa Barbara and sit with his wife, Jane, who was the head of counseling services there at Santa Barbara, and we would talk about him, and she gave me his flannel and gave me some stuff. And she always talked about him really fondly, and I never had it in me to ask her, like, why or what happened, but you could tell she was super confused. It's so confusing to people around. But yeah, he just got on the phone, called his daughter, I was told and said, Hey, I'm going to say goodbye and she was like, no, please don't.

1:00:20She called the fire department and he just, he killed himself. And so yeah, I don't know what, what goes through somebody's mind. I mean, I think that you asked about turning 50. I default to the great Joe Stroner, who I never met. I think it's only recently that I stopped asking you questions about Joe. Every time we see one another, maybe. every third time. I have an obsession of healthy obsession with his arc and who he was. And he he died at 50. Every time I go to New York City, I go to the stromer memorial down in alphabet city. There's a mural with Joe with his aviators. It says the future is unwritten.

1:01:03It's on the side of a bar there. And I don't know who put it up. Probably people own the bar. But like I love stories about Joe, I just watched the futures unwritten documentary twice. I feel a relationship to him because I, not because I'm the biggest clash fan, but because I'm the biggest Nescalero's fan that ever lived, his band they did later. And I also was so surprised last time I was here and you and I watched that documentary about the clash. I didn't realize that they were only five years. They were only went for five years and then he went into this long creative desert and kind of wandering doing these movies.

1:01:38He was not a very good actor, but he did that film Walker or something or an album and like there were a couple good songs, but then the messic lyric was like brought it all together. I love hearing stories about him because I feel like I'm not a musician. Yeah, it makes me well up, but like he's just like that's a beautiful human, you know, like just somebody who he just was so all in. And then the fact that he brought hip hop artists out to open foreign for the clash and people booed and he was like, the punks aren't even punk now. It's like he had to leave or something. It was like the rebels that were not even embracing their own values, it reminds me a lot of nowadays.

1:02:24A lot of people I grew up, I'll just say it, a lot of guys I grew up listening to, because they were punk self declared punks. They're like completely politically disorienting to me because they're just like anti things just to be anti, like I'm not for against either side. I just look at things on a case -by -case basis. And I'm like, okay, so Stromer saw that. Like the punk's the rebels were suddenly being dismissive of something new and different. That's not punk. And he had the guts to say, like, you people don't know what you're talking about. So, I don't know. These days, I think about him a lot.

1:03:05I've probably watched that documentary the future's unwritten maybe like six times. And I think there's something really there and his friend sitting at the campfire's thing is amazing. I will say that... He knew something about the UV sitting around the campfire at night. That's right. And that's a really good point. Firelight candlelight has that red orange glow and the heat from it as well. And that infrared is healthy for us late at night. It doesn't shift our circadian rhythm bright moonlight even you know we think the moon when it's really bright It's really like gonna bombard our circadian system.

1:03:37No it actually helps in train our circadian system It's very healthy for us. So bright moonlight and fire light But not man -made light right it's this short wavelength UV blue and green that's coming from screens that is I'll go so far as to say it's toxic at look like any toxin at low levels. It's not gonna kill you I mean this morning I spent a lot of time looking at these papers showing that blue light from devices, fins the retina, the light sensing tissue at the back of the eye, because of the ways that it depletes mitochondria in these photoreceptors. It's a cause of macular degeneration, like literally retinal degeneration.

1:04:17Now there can be a genetic predisposition of macular degeneration, which can make that all a lot worse. but I'm convinced that the light from the screens, especially at night, is toxic to the visual system. So that would be a phone, a TV, iPad, and essentially any screen, unless you do the thing that you taught me where you go in the settings, you have to go into the accessibility and then you have to go to the color, you have to essentially strip out all the blue and then you can program in the triple click shortcut so that at night your phone is red. It makes it a little harder to read. You can't see anything that's blue, but you want that stuff out.

1:04:57Or you could wear red lens glasses, which you do and I do after sundown. Or once it's dark, you just don't want to drive with those because sometimes it's going to be hard to see things. But the other thing that we didn't talk about earlier that this relates to is it's not just the light you see in the morning or the light you see at night. We evolved to see these gradual transitions between darkness and daylight. That's what really raises our energy level. So when, here we go again, Jack Cruz. I'm not gonna call you Uncle Jack. I'm not gonna call you Cruz with right last time. No one Jack Cruz, right.

1:05:31So when he talks about viewing sunrise, the transition to sunrise is important because the way the visual system works is it's a matter of moment by moment contrast. And yes, if you wake up after the sunrise, it's still good to get sunlight in your eyes, but seeing that not get again. Right. But seeing that transition is the best is the best and that's why in the evening seeing that transition is really great watching this is really great But when you flip on a bright screen at night After about 15 seconds your melatonin levels are floored out. They're supposed to be high I mean, this has been shown by Chuck's ice -thlavers lab at Harvard Medical School.

1:06:04Boom. It turns them off flatlines Flatline 15 seconds of brain like a thing about a bathroom light in a hotel. Yeah 15 seconds. Yeah done So, and some of them you can't turn off. You know in some hotels, when you walk into the room they turn on. Super bright. I invested in, it's very inexpensive, but I bought a satin Velcro sleep mask. I use one of those. It's awesome because it breathes. Because sometimes the eye masks are like they make you hot. You lose a lot of heat through the upper half of your face, your palms and the So sometimes you put in a, I'm asking you get really warm, which you don't want.

1:06:45Obviously for sleep, you want to be cooler. So those satin masks are nice. There's a study in Persians in the National Academy of Sciences showing that if kids sleep in a room where there's a 100 lux, which is very dim, 100 lux night light, their morning blood glucose levels are elevated in ways that are not healthy. When I first saw that, I thought, oh, well, that's not good, but interesting. Blood glucose, how? Remember, cortisol's job is to deploy glucose. So what happens is their cortisol levels are too high all night and then in the morning the blood glucose spikes. So it all hangs together.

1:07:26All the pieces are starting to fall into a nice solid block, like a good tetris game. You know, and at night, dimming the lights will work, and staying off screens or dimming the screens will work, or wearing red lens glasses, it will really, really help. Turning 50s of trip, and I'm excited for it. I mean, I feel physically better than ever. Better than in my 20s, probably because I don't drink. I never really drank that much at a pay attention, my sleep. I think I have more peace in my life than ever before. I have amazing friends. I mean, my life is a bit of a dream in many ways. And I also look at things like my advisor, dying of cancer at 50, my graduate advisor at war, strumor having a heart attack.

1:08:11And my god, shit, like this picture is gonna end someday, hopefully a long time from now. It is a trip, I spent the last two years really shoring up my relationship with my parents. Even though it was good, But it had pieces that need work from my side, no matter how clean and clear I thought we were. That was really important. I had my dad on the podcast. How did you decide to have your dad on the pod? Well, my dad's a scientist. He's a theoretical physicist, my training. And he turned to 80. And we have a good relationship. But I felt like there's just a lot of things about my dad and my mom that I just didn't know.

1:08:54And there were also, to be totally honest, there are a bunch of things about physics that I wanted to understand and my dad is very good at explaining things. And so I was like, shit, like maybe he'll explain relativity to me in a way that I can really understand because I don't. And maybe he will explain chaos because he was one of the founders of chaos theory. There were several, but maybe he could explain it in a way that I understand. So a lot of it was just the way I'd want any other guests on. But then I kept flashing in and out of like being his son and let the interviewer like, not consciously just, you know, and I started to realize, I was like, well, like me, his dad, and probably like every male, you know, like, stammering through life, trying to get it right, trying to build things and make really good decisions.

1:09:43And it's all happening in real time. You know, I think some of the people listening probably thought we were gonna get into our dirt or our history or our friction. And it was interesting we didn't at all. And then at the end I said you know people are probably thinking we'd get into our dirt or chemistry. But my dad and I had already worked all that out. We had done our work. We had had our hard conversations. You didn't need to repeat the performance. Yeah, we didn't need to and I feel like they're I'm not disparaging or of people that like want to work their stuff out publicly, but you know my dad's Argentine.

1:10:22He's like a real blue blood Argentine and I Know he always felt a little bit out of place in the United States because of that and as a kid I wanted dad that would be excited to go to soccer games and do all things and he wasn't that kind of dad and That was hard for me to be honest and he knows that But in that conversation, I was also like, oh my God, like my dad taught me about science. And even more importantly, he taught me how great a life of inquiry and discovery was. And my dad's a bit of a romantic in his notions about life. And he loves art and he loves music. And he's an intense guy.

1:11:02And I took a step back and I was like, well, what am I doing lately? It's like, well, I'm building these fish tanks. I might have an octopus in it. in one of them I'm trying to teach an octopus how to use an iPad and stuff like I'm sure my kid you know hopefully I'll have it some point soon We'll probably look at me and be like my dad was weird and octopus It's an iPad and I'm sure and I'm gonna try and do all the things like soccer games and all that other stuff too but I don't Doubt for a second and my kid wouldn't also like my dad's pretty pretty weird and different It's not like the other dads and so I I think in that moment I was just like, man, I'm like the luckiest son ever.

1:11:36I really felt lucky Like I wasn't thinking about what I didn't get. I just was like, this is a really amazing life experience. It made less sense for me to do one like that with my mom because she's not a scientist, and it's a science health podcast. But it motivated me in recent months too. Like just pay a bit more attention to the things that might move her. And my mom is an amazing gardener. She has this sense of plants. And she was telling me for years that you have to talk to the tomatoes. And I thought she was crazy. I was like, who talks to the tomatoes? But then I started talking to people like florists and people that really understand gardening and plants.

1:12:17And like they all, they all tell me they talk to the plants and they listen. And they're sensing things like this. And listen, she's as saying this can be when it comes to like maneuvering through life. But I'm pretty convinced she's right on about the tomato thing. So I don't know. I think there's something that just happens, It depends, 50, it's different. It's different than 40, it's different than 30, in a way that's not just a number. I think it's also the halfway point of my life, if I'm lucky. I am at the halfway point. And that's also kind of scary. So I don't know how much longer they'll be around.

1:12:49I hope a very long time, but they're both now in their 80s. And I'm just leaning into the richness of it. When I asked you about turning 50, you turning 50 somehow connected to you wanting to interview your dad on the podcast. Why do you think that is? I think it's because I've gotten a lot done in my life that I want to do and I never imagine the podcast or any public face or any of that. Like, I have a fantasy life in many ways. It's crazy. I converted an art gallery into a living space. It's the art gallery of probably my favorite artist. I won't say who it is because then people know where it is.

1:13:27but I have incredible friends. Like you, one of my childhood heroes is one of my best friends. Tim Warms Strong. And we have an art project together. He's just these paintings and I'm drawing no anatomy on top of them. Like my life is, like I can't believe it, right? I can't believe it. On the other hand, I think it's because I realized my dad by time he was 50 had a 20 -year -old son, you know, had navigated a career in a very challenging field. I mean, biology's hard. Theoretical physics is super hard. I don't care what anybody says. And it's super hard because there's a limited time window where people do their best work.

1:14:13And I remember because we used to be surrounded by them when I was growing up. The personalities are like beyond intense. I think he was close friends with Mary Gellman who discovered the quark, Noble Prize. Like who used to beat up on Feynman. Feynman used to beat up on him, but in kind of more playful ways. I mean, you know, to be wind in that kind of environment, whereas like my graduate advisor, she was tough on me, but like it was a nurturing kind of environment. So I realized that and my dad came for another country and he always felt a little bit like an alien in certain environments. And he didn't like drugs or alcohol.

1:14:47And he came to the US in the 60s and 70s. And he always felt like he couldn't be part of certain environments because he didn't want to do that, which I respect. So I think I was realizing like, holy shit, like he got a lot done. I've gotten a lot done too, but like he was soldering a lot. I think without him saying, I think he was soldering a lot. And my mom too, I mean, I think about raising two kids and then, you know, because I was alone at home with my mom in high school with a teenage kid like me who was probably worried her every single night. like I was so feral and so wild, I was like, wow.

1:15:29Like, it was not a formal token of respect. It was like, wow, they got a lot done. I want to know who these people are. Yeah. How do you think the conversation with your dad on the podcast was different because there were cameras rolling versus if you would have just had a one -on -one with him at home? For the first 10 or 15 minutes, it was a little awkward. And then in what is kind of the beauty of podcasting, the camera's just melted away. Just melted away. I think every podcast, I just go into that sphere where it's like cameras, cameras, like it doesn't matter if they're rolling. You're just thinking about what you're thinking about and you're there, you're in it.

1:16:16Yeah, there were moments where I had to, Like, am I gonna guide this conversation one way or the other, but I also have to say my dad, like having never done a podcast, it was like a fish to water. You know, I think a lot of that stuff had been in him for a long time. The same way that when I launched the podcast, it just like geysered out of me. I think my dad's been carrying a lot inside and it just came out and I'm so glad I did it. I do think that people should interview their parents if they have a curiosity, especially if you can't stand them, especially if you have beef. If you can be present but be back from it in a way that you're not gonna take things personally.

1:16:57Yeah, it was pretty magical for me. I like to think for him too. How would you say the pod has evolved from the time you started till now? Well, I look at it year by year. Year one, it was like essence energy. Like that stuff had been in me for 25 years. I didn't learn about the stuff. It's funny because sometimes I'll get criticized for my love of supplements and partnership with supplements. That has never bothered me one bit. Because from the time I was like 15 or 16 years old, I was going to health food stores, I was going to gyms, I was learning about the stuff, taking the stuff. And like it's like, yeah, okay, whatever.

1:17:33It just felt like it just poured out of me. All the stuff about the nitty gritty of neural circuits and hormones and thermal regulation. And yeah, we had ads for supplements that people could listen to or not. Or I was talking about supplements that I had no financial relationship to and still don't like Konga Ali, which I still take or Sheila G, things I think are super interesting and they're interesting data on. And I know work. I know they work because I use them and I do my blood work and then I feel it and their data. And so I think your one, it was just Rob and I in that little room into Pango like could not be stopped.

1:18:09You could stop the cameras. I'd probably keep going. It was like so much energy just pouring out of me. Your two was kind of that way. Your three is when the pieces that go with being public facing kind of started happening where people are criticizing the supplements or, you know, I said the thing about sunscreen and, you know, and people really contorting our messaging and trying to put it back on us. And then that's when it was very useful to have friends like you or Armstrong and Rob, my producer, who's really my manager, one of my closest friends and he's like a brother to me, explain to me like this is what media does.

1:18:42Like they're making money off of you by saying this, because if they just agree with you, they're not gonna get any clicks, because it's, so in year three, some ways it was a sign of success. Definitely. And I look at it completely differently now. But the time it was confusing to me, because I come from a world of sunnets where you publish something, it's interesting when people say, talk about what's right about it, maybe the things that need work, but it wasn't this, we're gonna use this to our own means by cutting and contorting things. Year four was kind of hard at first, if I'm honest. I mean, the podcast had been sitting in like the top 10 overall for a very long time.

1:19:17And the amount of criticism that year really seemed to balance the praise. And I'm not really attached to praise or criticism for whatever reason, probably because I started doing public facing anything when I was 45. Like, if people come over and they say, hey, I love the podcast. I really appreciate it. I'm happy for them. I want to know what it was that how it impacted them and what they're doing with it. I want to know their name, etc. But I wouldn't say again, like a dopamine hit off. I don't feed off of it. And if it doesn't happen, I don't mind. Critique I love because I come from the land of science where critique is how you get better.

1:19:51Year four was when I felt that the critique wasn't designed to make me better at my job. It was designed to supply the media with a certain kind of narrative. And I was like, just to smear. It was just smear. I was told this is part of the business. This is what being public facing is about. It also paradoxically, at least to me, had the opposite effect in terms of it grew the podcast like crazy. And, you know, from the perspective of the people that really love the podcast, they seem to love it even more. So it was confusing to me how this all works. Like mixed messages. Mixed mixed messages.

1:20:26And I think that despite that, thanks to you, thanks to Rob, thanks to the support of too many people to list off. But the last half of that year of 2024, we did some of our best work. It was a little bit stringed on my side because I was still trying to put the pieces together about what media was all about and how these competing media houses were talking about us. Because we don't talk about them. I don't really care what other people are doing. It was weird. But we had Esther Perrell on the podcast. Martha Beck, who I respect tremendously on the podcast. We did a podcast with James Hollis, who then a 84 -year -old psychoanalyst, he wrote under Saturn's shadow, which is about healing and trauma of men, which I knew I wanted to sit down with him for a very long time because I had seen a YouTube video of him with terrible audio years before, and I was like, this guy is brilliant.

1:21:22And that was transformative for me, and that podcast was voted by Apple, whatever one of the most top episodes of the year. So the numbers didn't matter to me so much. It was the impact these were having. And for reasons that were important to me, I revealed a bit of myself that I never thought I would reveal public. I cried onto podcasts. On Stephen Bartlett's podcast, I was teary. Talking about the strain of breakup, talking about having to resist saying things because I don't believe in saying bad things about people, even if they're true sometimes. and about the contortion that sometimes exists in the media, I just don't partake in it.

1:22:04And also, I was sad because Steven was tapping into some of the same stuff we were talking about earlier. You know, like I grew up in this crew of like amazing dudes who were doing incredible things and skateboarding and music and art, and a lot of them were dead or in jail. There were only a few that got in a lot of trouble for really bad things. And at least in one case, I was a really good person that did a really bad thing. This wasn't anything to win then. I know people probably think this wasn't, it was violence, right? He screwed up real bad. And he ended up in prison for 20 years. Wow.

1:22:47So, you know, there was a lot of sadness and kind of heaviness and I was like, my all three advisors dying, right? it was Harry, suicide, Barbara Chapman, cancer, Ben Barris cancer. It was like, whoa, like the heaviness kind of came out in that podcast. And then when Martha Beck came on the podcast, she's a life coach and an incredible person. And I've loved her books in her work for years. And I was meeting her for the first time. And she started asking me questions and kind of tapping into some things. And I'm like crying on my own podcast. not what you want your science professor doing, right?

1:23:25I'm a science health guy, but at the time it felt right, I wasn't trying to prove anything, it was just, it was in the moment, and when we finished those, I was like, I don't know if we roll these. And Rob's like, we definitely roll these. And I trust his judgment. But when 2024 came to an end, I was like, I'm done with that. I'm done with kind of like, it's not about me. It was never supposed to be about me. It was never supposed to be about me. It's supposed to be about sunlight, it's supposed to be with the infirmity. The reason I wear all black, in addition to the fact that Strummer played some of his last shows in long black sleeves and was sweating and black jeans and he just would not, he didn't even roll his sleeves up.

1:23:59So punk. In addition to that reason, it's because I don't want people to see my tattoos, not because I'm embarrassed about them because I don't want people focusing on them. I want people hearing the material, I want them focused on the materials. It was never supposed to be about me. I don't care about me when I'm teaching science. It's about photo receptors and sunlight and cortisol. That's what it is for me. That's the energy I'm trying to let pass through me and for people to learn and benefit from. So at the end of 2024, I was like, I'm done with this. You know, if you want to talk personal stuff like we are today, but there's a bit of a wall up inside of me because around that.

1:24:34Because it's not what your intention from the beginning was. I'm excited about that. I am so glad you asked about cortisol first because that's what I'm excited about, apparently. So this year, year five of the podcast, It's been about getting back to the essence of learning, even if I have to dig longer and harder. Because as time goes on, there's like less novelty there because a lot of these themes have been around and I've talked about them. But when it came time to really understand cortisol, I was like, oh, I'll do an epitone cortisol and it'll be about how it's, and I was like, oh, it was like discovering a treasure trove again.

1:25:05And I'm like, okay, I don't know if people will understand what a treasure trove this cortisol information is. But I'm sure as hell gonna try and let them understand that and just keep talking about this because it's it's that important. It can help so many people. And so this year, the morning meditation I do is around getting the noise out, getting myself out of the way because frankly, my story is not that interesting anymore. Even to me, I've noticed this, like I used to think about, oh, my first high school girlfriend in our story, I like, it's a beautiful story. And guess what, that's an old story.

1:25:45You know, I don't talk too much about my tattoos, but long ago I got a tattoo that I didn't understand until very recently. I wrote on my chest, new stories. I don't even know why I did it. I was like, new stories. Now it's covered up by a bunch of gray hair, but I said, new stories. And I think my unconscious mind clearly put that there. I like new stories. I'm not really interested in the past so much. It's closed. It's there. But it's not relevant right now. So this year has been all about like, what's new? What's exciting to me? Where are the real gems that I haven't been able to tap into?

1:26:19And forgetting about like what people expect to me because there's this funny thing in media and you've probably seen this in music too and you're involved in media as well, which is, well, Gwyneth Paltrow said it on your podcast. People kind of want to see you how they found you. Or if there's something that really sticks out to them, I'm like, you shed a few tears talking about your past, or you know, you are associated with a particular topic or narrative. They kind of want to keep you there. But my life's an evolution. I'm not interested in being my 49 year old self, at least not after my birthday this month.

1:26:56I'm not interested in my 35 year old self. I think I understand him and what he was doing right and wrong for himself. And I think now I just like I want to beat my 50 year old self. Josh Wade's skin when he was on the podcast. The chest, prodigy turned, jujitsu turned all these other things. He said something I'm still trying to get my head around. He's much smarter than I'll ever be. But he said, and he said there's something on the Rogan podcast he went on. He said, you know, there are two ways to go through life. One is like in the dining car of a train looking out the window and looking at your food and kind of experiencing life that way.

1:27:31He said, but the best way to experience life is strapped to the front of the train, experiencing life as space -time as it goes by. And I thought, what the hell is he talking about? But the one thing I know is Josh doesn't just say stuff. He's not like that. And he doesn't say stuff to be cryptic. And so I spend a lot of time thinking about it. And I think what it comes down to is that our perception of time is very different when when we're at the front of the train because we can't look back. And we're not watching experiences as they happen as much as we're experiencing things in real time without kind of notions of how they link to the past or the future yet.

1:28:13When you look out of a train car from the side, you can kind of link experiences to the past. And you can turn your head to fire. Turn your head. I'm like, God, this guy is smart. So nowadays, the ending of my morning meditation is really about that imagery. And seeing, can I experience life that way? And anything that doesn't fit into that kind of feels like contamination. And also now I have to say, I'm embracing the fun parts of being public facing. You know, I don't think we're like supposed to say that, like you're not supposed to say that. Like, I couldn't even say the word famous a few years ago.

1:28:48But then eventually, it's like, oh, wow, it's kind of hard to go places without getting stopping you. But people are gracious. I guess if they hate me, they're either not saying anything or they're saying it on the internet. For once, I'd love somebody to walk up to me and be like, you know, I hate the way you said this. Could you say it differently? Because at least I'd be getting some feedback. But anyway, people are very gracious. But I also really enjoy the life I have. I mean, it's open, enormous opportunities. I'm in direct contact with the Director of the National Institutes of Health, Jay Badacharia.

1:29:16I have his ear. I can say things that I agree with and disagree with. I can, unlike many of my colleagues who just complain and complain and complain, I can pick up the phone and call them and be like, hey, this feels kind of not right. What are you doing with this? What do you, I can impact things potentially. I also have the opportunity here, the public, and hopefully filter that information. I feel very honored by that. And it's also just transformed my quality of life, including the kind of interactions I can have with people. And so I'll tell anybody that you have to be very careful what you chase in life, I would not suggest anyone chase fame.

1:29:56Certainly, when you do that because you won't get it, you will not get it or you'll get it for the wrong reasons and then it'll get punctured. But if you can tap into your that essence energy and give people something of value, yes, the world will reward you very handsomely.

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