Daniel Kaluuya

25:10I was in service of myself, and wanting the next job, or looking good in front of people, or looking like the best, or all that shit, I was more focused on that, as opposed to just telling the truth, and going on, you understand? And so then I realized that like, when I tell the truth and go home, when I'm honest, then I'm free. If I pour and give all that I can, and I'm honest, I'm genuinely free, no one can say anything to me, especially me. Yeah, because you're being true in the moment, and that's all there is. It's all there is. I did all I could, and I'm feeling like, yeah. Could you have played a wild -billing movie instead of Fred Hampton?

25:53Yeah. And what would that have been like? How would it have been different? You can't have the light without the dark. Yeah. If it's consistently light, you ain't going to register it as light. It's just consistent. Yeah, there's nothing. There's nothing. When you have the dark, then you are able to identify and define the light. So I believe that whatever the story wants from me, I am prepared to give it, and wherever it wants from my soul, or wherever I'm at, or where the direct fulfills my mind, or then I can go at, or I do, is wherever I want to get in that space, or not, but I do think that like, I could play, I could have played him, yeah.

26:30And it's just that Shakar, the direct at the time, saw that his vision is the key of synergy, you're saying, but I think it would be a different film though. Yeah. That's my thing. For sure. Every different, it's just a different thing. Yeah, I mean, so. Tell me about the different directors you've worked with, how different are they? So like, someone like Steve McQueen, right? He's more, I see him as like a composer. Like, he see, what he describes it to me, or what, it feels like jazz, that we are all jazz players. And he's looking for the surprising moments. He's looking for that, that kind of like, when a thought arrives to you in the moment, he's creating boundaries, anything, and he puts people that he trusts, and that way in climb, that are open enough to say the thing, and then let the, let reality show up through us.

27:29He is, is that. And he's got an innate understanding of human beings. And one time, I did a scene, and he was doing another scene in a different location, and I went to do like, a stunt rehearsal, and I came back to, said the other location he was at, and he said to me, what did the room tell you? And he's like, oh, you get it. Oh, yeah, I get it. Yeah, that's what it does. Like, you go in there, you don't know what you're going to do. Like, when you're, like, got the site, it's a kind of kind of learning lines. And then you're like, I'm like 60 % there, then the room's got to tell you what to do, the end you just got to tell you what to do, then you start making decisions.

28:11Because that's what life is. Like, I came in there, and I thought I was going to be in a city, it's situation with you. You used to, you used to eat those socks. I saw this clumpy sofa, I said, I want to take off my shoes, and then I'm here. It's the environment, then you're in it. So I think he very much encourages that, just saying, and actually prioritizes that. So even in terms of dialogue, like he's more flexible with the dialogue to where improvisation is more a part. Could do, but I think, I tell you what it is about, improv, I was always an improv, but then I started being quite enamored with how you get that improv quality within the restraint of, I think that's what Dune Theatre gave me.

28:56What I've been doing for a while, it's like, when you say the line, how loud you say the line, how the pitch, how long you wait before you say all those things. It's just, I just got really like, I feel really rewarding to kind of go, I can say a line that makes that happen, but then that just means I don't trust the right. And if I trust the right and go, I'm going all right, cool. And actually, it was actually an experience on Secario and learning from Penicio and watching Penicio Del Toro. And he was like, how'd you say less? So he was taking outlines. I didn't see that in my life. Oh, this guy is a dog.

29:38And then he's like, and it is that he's just like, I can say it in my face. I can say that in my face. And I started to be more going, how do I say more with less? Yeah. I started being way more on it with that. And I think, I just, it's just my kind of thing. I'm not saying it's like better than anything else. I just, I just got, it feels like, because I don't think people expose much in real life. I mean, in terms of their manner, only in extreme situations they do when they really push. And in terms of a challenge, getting all of the content across without saying anything, that's a noble challenge to take on.

30:20Yeah. How do you do that? Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, it's cool. I just find it cool. So that's how I would do that. But then it was like, how do I express that in -pro -quality with a look, with a gesture, with an energy shift? As you do that, that's what the camera really reads, because it then used to, you're not saying four, you're saying two plus two. And then the audience leans in. If I give you the line and tell you four, four forward, then you're like, you know what I mean, Jay -Z album. You know what I mean? So it's like, because you're like having to kind of - So it's like you're finding the words as you're saying them.

30:55So the camera sees you finding the words not just saying the line. The thought is what? I have, especially during this process on the kitchen and being in the post -production, detailed in the edit. Like, I'm always finding the engine when the thought arrives. That's what I realized. It made me articulate what I care about when I - it's like, like, that's what's fascinating. And then what are you going to do with that? Yeah. And you may say the line you might not even say the line, because you feel the thought. The thought. Yeah. You see something happen. Yeah. And then it's like that shift is what is - is rewarding and seeing an evolution.

31:40That's what you want. That's what you - you - the enamoring quality of storytelling is evolution. So if you see someone change by someone that's happening, if you are ready, then you're ready. But if you like going and you move, you're like, and then you move on that, then the thought is - the thought brings the line. So I take - I give you an example. Say, say, say, say, say, say, I see people like, I see my friends like, I've done your brother, I ain't seen your film. I'm like, I know, I'm not. It's my brother. It's cool. I said, I know, I know, I know. I said, bro, I want to see it. I said, bro, the fact you want to is the thing.

32:12When you do it, it's up to your life. Like, you mean you may have kids, you may do whatever life is. The one is the thought. And that's the valuable thing. The act is the product of the one. So that's how I see the acting thing is like - the line is the product of the thought. And seeing that thought arrive is the valuable bit of the storytelling for me. And so then I go, and then the line is the actualization of that shift. So I look to someone else's line, I'm listening, going, what is triggering this thought that makes me say this line? That's what I'm looking out for. So I'm there with you, and one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my life and acting, it's mad, simple.

33:00I saw Josh Brody and this saying, amazing, yeah. I said the line, and then like, I'm not trained. So sometimes I have diction issues. And then so I'm working on it continuously. And then like, I went on to the Sicario. I said, I was in the scene, and he was going for it. And I said the line. And Josh had the line next, and then he just went, what? What is that? And then I said the line again, and then he replied, because he's there. Yeah. He's not got the performance ready. Yeah, yeah. He's listening. He's listening. He's listening, say like, what? Yeah. And then he said, and then I had to say it again, and go, oh yeah, but it's not like, that was just that revolutionized my whole brain.

33:46I was 25, I'm going, what the fuck? That is the coldest shit I've seen in my fucking life. It's so simple. It's like an insignificant scene. It's like, it was like, that is one of the most, like, he was there. Yeah. And it weren't fake. And it made me go, that's the North Star. I mean it. I'm not going to say it until I hear it. Why am I saying it? It's as simple as that. Yeah. And it's the audacity to stand on that and commit to that. Because that's what rule like. If it is, if somebody, you just go, what do you think? Like, there's someone I know, like, she's from the South, and I've got a deep line in that scene.

34:23And we don't really understand each other. I have missed the term for her. She's been me, but we all got bell intentions. But that's what life is. And that's what you want. You just want to be listening. And then that dictates every other decision. But yeah, that's the McQueen kind of breaks that space. And then someone else, and it's extreme. And in another sense, would be, I think, like Ryan Cougs, like Couglar, very much, very bespoke. I would seem very bespoke that he speaks to everybody differently. He speaks to everyone he understands. And he's in it with you. Like, say, as if there was like a screen test.

35:00And it was really cold. And the girl who was doing a screen test, he would take his jacket off and being his T -shirt. Because, yeah, I'm in it with you. Yeah, man. He's in it with you. And, like, so you feel like you don't feel like an object. You understand? You feel like you have a collaborator. You have a partner. You have someone that's in the battle with you. And then he knows you, and he'll speak in your, what would bring what he wants out of you. But he would speak in the way that you would understand. And I see you speak differently to different people. And, like, And that was really interesting.

35:37That was really interesting to see that. And it's something that I've kind of, like, adopted in, when I've directed and stuff and, like, and knowing that it, you've got to speak in a way that, it's not about just communicating. Communication is, people think communication is expression. Communication is commune. So you have to receive it in order for it to be communicated. And so people just prioritize what I want to say. And it doesn't, they don't acknowledge in what, how you receive it. And if you be a man landing, it's about landing on it. Yeah. And I think he understands that. And he understands that I want it to really land.

36:15So I'm speaking to you. And so you feel quite, you know, you feel quite spoken to and seen. And how different is it, depending on the skill level of the actor you're working with? It's different in a sense that, like, I think being doing a lot of low -budget stuff, like starting my career, like, was all low -budget in short films. And he's not really, A, have only two takes. Don't have a lot of time. You know, a lot of your time. And B, not everyone's there. So I think I've learned how to, if the camera's not on me, I've learned how to lean heavy on something to get out. I'm going to give it tailors you the most you need.

36:58Yeah. So that it really comes out and jumps out. If I had some director saying something, I would then support what he's saying and support what he wants to. Because it's about coming out. Just saying, because we're in and in. But some people, you don't need to do that. Just saying, and then they're able to get their own way and if surprised you and that will evolve what you're doing. And so it's more like a, it's more like a dance that it can, it's whether, it's like, yeah, it's like a dance. And sometimes you have to lead more than needed. But if someone is able to understand the steps, then you've got into new spaces and do some new moves.

37:33But it's a reflection of what, both of you intended and what you want from the... Do you ever have it the other way where there is? You're working with someone who's just so great that you feel like it makes you better? Yeah, I've had a couple moments where I was like, I've had a couple moments when I was like, well, it's something said saying. And I went, I actually stopped telling, I was more, I was young, I was like, that's not in the script. But he said the line, so fresh. Yeah. And so present and so in it that, it felt improvised. So I felt like, it felt like he made it up. Yeah. So I was like, huh?

38:12I had to learn like, I stopped. Yeah. Then I was like, whoa. Like, actually, I'll say it was Chris O'Dowd. Yeah. I did this TV show with Chris O'Dowd. And he just said, it's like, I was like, what the fuck? And he just went, whoop. And then I was like, oh, like, I wasn't in it. Yeah. B, I was like too premeditated. Yeah. In terms of what you, I was told controlling. Yeah. Because I've been worked, I hadn't worked with people at a higher level. Yeah. Probably at that point. I was 19 and like, I was like, oh, like, you're going to say it in a way I would have even imagined. You're going to put intonations in places.

38:49I was like, oh, shit. And then it made me just let go of preconceived notions and preconceived thoughts. And then it goes just be more, cool. They can say anything they could come anyway and a bit more. And I think that makes you, it's not like, well, I'm learning now. It's not like, growth is not about adding. It's about subtracting. In crime. Oh, I can let that go. And then you'll reach a four. What you let go. You know what I mean? It's what I have learned about when you're dealing with someone great. So I say, if that Josh Brolin story, that's dealing with someone great. And he showed me like, I got a diction.

39:30There's something in that. There's a thing that's in my way. There's a, there's a, I have an anxiety about something that I need to let go of. But also that like, I assumed he's just going to say the line because I said it. And then as opposed to, because that's the job, as opposed to completely different idea, which is actually being present, the truly, and listening. Really, it's taught me a lesson in listening. Yeah. That was like, come with less, come to the scene with less. And then you will feel more.

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41:15These minerals help conduct the electricity that powers your nervous system so you can perform it your very best. Element electrolytes are sugar -free, keto -friendly, and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drinklmnt .com slash tetra and stay salty with Element electrolytes. L -M -N -T How do you say developing these skills in your craft impact your daily life? Are you always listening? Are you always in that regardless of whether you're on or not? How is life different than how it used to be for you? I think, yeah, I'm probably listening too much. That's probably what I lean on certain vices to distract.

42:16Like, say if I'm taking too much in, I'll be food -taste. Like, my phone, like, things that I, like, substance is, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'll be just like, all right, cool. Let me get out of this, this vein, like, like, we just be drink -cord, you know what I'm saying? It's like, we just get out of this vein because I'm taking in too much and I have too many feelings about what I'm taking in. It creates me, it makes me highly sensitive. And, like, so then it's, so then I like silence. I like being by myself. I like, I'm very comfortable in my own company because there's less to respond to.

42:50I can hear people's chaos. And I can hear what they say. I can hear more and more. And you have to kind of like, I've had to learn tools to kind of deal with that. And that should be okay with it. It's actually being okay with what it triggers in me. Like, I've heard from where I like, I never used to be able to sit through a film because he used to trigger me too much. I know the fall asleep. It was a moment when it was a pandemic. The pandemic showed me that when I was like, because it was like, I had loads of sleep, yeah? And then like, I would watch a film. You could still fall asleep. I would fall asleep.

43:22So I wasn't about sleep. I was like, my mom was sleeping. But it was just a moment. It was like an escape. You wanted to escape. I had two, I was, I would watch a film every day, at like 11 a .m. Yeah. In a pandemic. So I've had my good mother sleep. I've read today, I've eaten my breakfast. I like breakfast. Not heavy breakfast. That would slow me down. And then I would still sleep. So then it was basically, even without the vices, I was running away from it. From whatever it opened. You understand? So I realized I had to deal with that. You understand I had to deal with like, why do I want to run?

43:56Why do I want to not take in what, or accept to all, maybe because, and it's not usually not what, it's usually that I like something about it. That's what it's helped me. Like, what do I like about this? Do you get lost in the story? Or you, if I feel the direct is confident, I get lost. If I have to feel the direct, you can see that in the first frame. It's just basic. Do they know where they're going? Are they going to take you and do you feel safe? Yeah. Do you think about the first frame? Like, I feel like, when a piece of music comes on in the down beat, like in the, the first sound you hear.

44:31100%. You really kind of have a feeling of what's about to happen. Like, you need lowering so much before the song even plays. Just like the, the intention of the first note. Yeah. I'm an obsessive music. I love music, because I think I love music, because it's an art form that I'm not a part of. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, I get to just be a fan. Like, that means I'm a stessive. And I was just, there was a time I was just a stessive, and I knew first five seconds, because I knew if this producer knows what they do or where they're going, it's, but for me, it was like, the notes they don't play.

45:02It's the notes they leave out. And they go, they're confident. They know where it, it's just like, that's the same thing is like, same with the first frame. It's like, they know where they're going. Or if it moves you, does it make you the haunts? If there's no intellectual word, there's no intellectual justification. You know what we think about. You feel it or you don't. Feel it or you don't. Yeah. Does it move you? And that's whether that person intended that, or that they just have that innate intention. Yeah. And then you just know what's going on. You know what I mean? And that's how I feel.

45:32Like in a film that allows me to like, surrender and a guy, I won't move you. But when I'm like, it's hard because sometimes it's like, you're thinking, you're like, thinking different versions of it. And then sometimes you're just inspired. And it's opening new way. I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. Do you make notes while you watch? Yes, I'm tired. I do. No, I do. No, I do. I watch that. I just write things down. I have this thing now, what I'm doing now. I just started, but like, just have a list of my films that I love. And I just watch that every morning. That's the first thing I do. It's watch to film my love.

46:06Before I read a script that I need to read, before I do things that I need to do. But they differ upon every day. Yeah, they differ. Like, just like a joyous one. And it'll solve your network. How many, yeah, how many are there on your list of ones you love? 30 for we. You know what I mean? I've only done 5 or 6 of them now, because I'll have to come back from all the day. Really? Because I remember I read somewhere, yeah. And they said, you should always revisit the things that you love as a teenager because you are waiting there. You know what I mean? Yeah. It was like, stuff that you went to, just because you went to it.

46:45There was no, like, I want to do it to use it. To this is just like, I love it. And so I'm going. And then you'll meet yourself again. That's what it says. You'll meet yourself again. Do you ever go back and watch something that you loved when you were younger and it doesn't hold up? Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes way. Like, I find out with books. Well, I've got, wow, I've moved. It disment a lot to me at that time. Yeah. And now it was the time that was, was me receiving it, not necessarily. It's like the right teacher showing up when you're ready. It's like, at that point in your development, that spoke right to where you were.

47:20It was like, I'm going to talk to me that allowed it. But then I've moved on and evolved from that. So now I revisit it. It was about it. It was about what it triggered me and what it developed to move to me. So then like, I think that's what the best work does. It's, for me, the best work is the thing that triggers something in me. More than me getting involved in it. 100%. And that's what I feel like. This is what I'm thinking I'm starting to realize in this process, the kitchen, this like, like, I think we're so media obsessed. Media has just like taken over all narrative, right? And just that style of narrative.

47:57Because it tells you what to think. And it's the equivalent. What I think art, what media does is go, here's a fish and art goes, here's a fishing rod. Here's how to think. Yeah. About whatever the fuck you want to think about. Yeah. Or the art might even just say, look at this without saying here's a fish. And then you get to say, oh, it's a fish. Yeah. But you get to say that. Yes. Two plus two. Yeah, I don't like being told what to think. Yeah, I don't like it. I don't enjoy it. It's, it always think like, what, it's more interesting what I discover. Yeah. And I, but I, I think that way of thinking of not liking what to think is not common.

48:36Yeah. Like it. I think people want to know what to think is what I want. I wonder. I'm starting to accept that I don't believe that. I have to say I don't believe that. I don't think I certainly don't want to believe it. But I, but I also, I hold people highly enough to believe they don't want to be told what to do. I don't think what I, maybe this is me is I'm thinking that was like, I think I, I have a four of issues. And so, and I don't think a lot of people don't. So they say, so, so they trust. Yeah. They have whatever great relationship, whoever the person that they had, they're great relationships with.

49:13And so they didn't create this autonomy. Yeah. And then they go, I'll call this person. So let's go. They want to be led. And I, and I think that's a different kind of person. And I think the culture that we have at the moment encourages that side of people and punishes people that aren't like that. Thus people, you have to really believe in it to hold on to one in your own thoughts and wanting to think independently. And a lot of people is just not that deep in them to hold on to that. And then it's like, they're not like resisted, not emotionally resistant to that way of being led. That's a heartbreaking idea to me.

50:03I think it's okay. Tell me why. I think it's okay because it's like, what am I called? Like, what we're going to give them? You know, it's like if you deny it, then you consistently try to get someone to do something that they don't want to do. I see. You know, as opposed to giving them what is serves them in the way that they want, is that communication thing. It's accepting and believing what you see. Understood. And going, yeah, I have that. That's how this person wants it. Maybe for me is a lot of my frustration with my creativity in my life is me being resistant to that. To me going, you should, you should, but look at me and say I'm should.

50:53Yeah. Should, should, should, should. There's a cancer of a word. Yeah. Yeah. Just saying it's like, it's not even like, I'm telling you what to think about how to think. Like, I'm telling, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, I'm like, I'm being like them. Yeah. As opposed to accepting and going, all right, you're like that. Going, do you think that? Yeah, I think it's cool that people do what they want. I just find it hard to believe that people just want to be told what to do and follow. I find it, I just find it hard to believe. I think it's because you don't. Yeah, I don't. That's all, that's my only point to you.

51:25But you'll, but do you think you'll read? Do you think you'll come in? No, but I also think, I mean, historically, the things that I've liked seems like other people seem to like. Like I've made things that I like a lot of other people like them. So I think there must be such as odd as I feel, as different as I feel. There's some commonality there because I'm not making anything for anyone else. I'm only making it for me. But the difference is is that you made it. They didn't make it. So the fact that you can make makes you separate to them. Yeah. Means that you have a different ideal. Yeah. And they are like going, oh, cool, that person, that's what they're into.

52:09Cool, I'm just onto what, yeah, that's cool. And oh, yeah, that is good. I like that. It moves me. They are looking to you to tell them, like, what's good? Oh, this is what you've heard? Because I don't think ideas are odd. I don't think. I think it's like, you're going into the pond, the efficient and then they, what? 100%. I've got what? So it's like you, you worked your ass off in China, actualize it. It's like, I'll give you a problem. This is how I interpret life. So they're like, oh, this is what I've learned in my career. I've been a cancerous state. I don't know if it's like the projects in London.

52:43People don't act from it. So I get to a secret. And so everything I would do, like, I'll go, I can see something's possible. And I go to Rick, you see that. And then usually that person goes, I'm sorry. I'm like, they wouldn't even see it. They wouldn't see it. And then I go, all right, cool. I'll work, work, work, work, work. I'm fucking awesome. I'm fucking awesome. I'm fucking awesome. And then the win is putting it there. And that person is saying, I don't know if you've seen this. He's like, it's mad, isn't it? Yeah. I don't tell them. Yeah. But now it's there. Yeah. He's showing. I show them.

53:19Yeah. But that makes me drastically different to them. Yeah. And like, what I used to be is in denial that, like, I'm just different. Like, you're just doing the different things. I'm like, wait, sometimes I was in Brooklyn one time. I sat next to the opposite of this guy. I said, would you, would you, I just spend your time. He's like, yo, I make tables. I'm like, what the fuck? I'm just, you make tables. What tables? It's like, I make the one that we're right now. I don't, it had like a fucking sewing machine at the bottom of the, and I'm looking at it. And I'm like, how did you get there? Yeah.

53:51I'm just going to buy whatever I'm going to go to. I keep buying a table. Yeah. I don't need to like, understand. Jamini's like, there's different departments in life where I delegate. And I, and it's whether I am aware of what I like or who I trust. Yeah. To receive what I like and what I trust. And some people go, oh, I've relived that. And they've able to wear and identify that. But they're not in the business of like, control. And that's how I see it. But we're talking about now thinking for someone else, which is different than making something for someone else that people want to be thought for.

54:24That's a scary idea to me. Yeah, it's awesome. You know what I'm saying? It's a different idea. Yeah. I want you to tell me how to live my life. That's crazy. No one can do that. There's no version of that that's okay. But they do do that. I know. It doesn't, but it's like, it's you think like, no one man can have all that power. It's like, I don't think it's like, it's all right. I call it like, control and power. It's controlling power. Yeah. And freedom. And it's either freedom or not freedom. Most of the, those are the choice. One is, it's, if you're free to decide what you want, how you want to do it, that's freedom.

55:09And if someone's telling you what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do it, this is how you think about it. If you think about it differently than this, you're wrong, you're in trouble. But, but I don't think everyone's prepared for the cost and responsibility of freedom. That's not a human thing. I don't think we've been prepared for it. A lot of people have been prepared for it. They haven't been given the tools to prepare themselves for all that cost. It's like going in there and going, all right, cool. I'm lifting 300 pounds. You've got to build up to lift them 300 pounds. And it's a heavy weight.

55:42Just saying and like, that's what I know. I really like a lot of people want to, want to putts a leadership, but they don't want to cost. And I find that in terms of being autonomous within your mind and within your thoughts and within your direction of your life. I've got to go here, I want to go there. It's a big, you have to go through a mad experience, a lot of mad experiences to be truly free in terms of freedom. It's just like, oh, I can just do that. Just saying, oh, I want to do this. It's where I'm at right now. Like, me, I'm open to learn and figuring it out, but that's where for me, for me, I just feel like a lot of people are not prepared for that cost and they're cool with it.

56:18And I think the environment that has been built within the West doesn't actually encourage it because it's too complicated and there's too much choice. And so then it's like the overwhelming of, like, I feel like the internet is just going like, all right, cool. Knowledge is power. Give them all the knowledge. So then you go, you got to know what to get. Because you got too much information. Yeah. You know, now you're like, all right, quiet. Tell me what to, come on to your rate.

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58:01I can actually argue the other side of what I was saying, based on what you just said, that's interesting. I remember when the streaming revolution first started, and I remember feeling like, wow, I don't have to go to the store and buy a CD or vinyl that I could hear any piece of music I want at any time. If I just think of something that I heard 25 years ago, I could listen to that right now, and I thought, I'm just going to want a DJ all day, and I came to realize very quickly, I don't want a DJ all day, and I want to be programmed to. And it's fun when a song comes on that I wasn't expecting.

58:41It's a great experience, and I love that. I get to have discovery versus choice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, people want to be thrilled in that way. Like I would be like that back in day and radio shows, I'd be like, alright, this is the DJ. I follow DJs, and I go, alright, I go, this is the best thing to me. It's going to drop a song that I've never heard. What's this? I just won't find it. You can say, and I won't arrive to me. That person is, that's their job. That's what they do. You know what I'm saying? And you want to be kind of, that's what I'm trying to say. It's like, it's a thrill when that relationship is trusting and like, enriching and opens doors for you.

59:23Yeah. You know what I think, the way that it sometimes is used now, is used to control, and is used to diminishing, is used to suppress. But what you're describing though, is a trusted source who you pick. Yeah. Imagine if you got assigned a source of what you were allowed to listen to musically, and you didn't respect their taste, that wouldn't be good. No, it wouldn't. But then if there was no other options, wouldn't you just have to like find the good in it? Yeah. Well, that's how it used to be when everything was an underman. Yeah, exactly. And like, and all you would create, what you wanted.

1:00:02Yeah, exactly. And that's the, that's what I think that's something we've both done. Yeah, exactly that. It's just going to create the thing that isn't there that you want. Rob, I just make films, I want to watch and I want my friends to watch. That's it. Simple as that. Simple. It's worthy of my simple. And you can't, if you think past that, it'll screw the whole thing up. Yeah. And sometimes someone's got there and done it before me. And what, oh, thank God. Yeah. I don't have to do it. That's what you see. That's really cool. Let me see what they did. Oh, they were closer to it. Are you there?

1:00:33They did it. Yeah. Cool. Do you mean it's just that? That's it. Like, it's not like, I mean, it's just if not Austin, who? Yeah. It's us. Yeah. Do you mean it's like you just go and then just do it? Like it's, and, and, but then that's a certain kind of person that has a certain kind of, nah, I want it like this. You mean? Not everyone has that. Baby. Is what I'm accepting. And it's quite, I feel like I've been quite baby like when a baby feels like, everything is them. Yeah. You mean they have this reality where like, oh, that this ball is me and this thing is me. They all like, that's what I kind of been internally in my creative life and feel like, well, I can do it.

1:01:13Yeah. And that's been a kind of being dismissive of what I've been given. Yes. What I, what radio station I can hear. Yes. Just saying it's like I can hear things because the experiences that I've had and the, my exposure, like the fact that like my people, my family didn't speak English when I was a kid. That's a dream. Thus I read. So obviously that tend leans itself for improv because I'm new you didn't body language. If I ask you, what is the kitchen? You tell me what, what comes up for you? A representation of an energy and an ideal that for me, is the essence of what the Londoner I grew up in and the Londoner I saw.

1:01:58And I do feel that there is a kitchen and a corner of the kitchen in every city that has a lack of fuck you. We do what we want and we don't give a fuck. You want us to leave? No. But the narrative manifestation of that is a self -sufficient community within this film of kitchen that they just did a last -land standing. It's like it's a community of people that are still connected, that still believe in oneness, that still believe in community and they are being asked to leave. And they said no. And they are dealing with the repercussions of that answer. It's how it feels to me. So, is it a realistic drama or is it the science fiction?

1:02:54What genre is this story being told as? Is it an image genre? I don't think so. I think it has elements of a lot of things. And it has a science fiction conceit. However, it's hard, it's an intimate drama about this man and this boy. And how they reconnect. I think what when I boil it down, it's basically when your relationship has changed with your child, how do you redefine a friendship? After a level of absence. And that can be applied to a mother and daughter when a daughter is gone to uni or college for a couple of years and they haven't been seeing each other every day. And it comes back and that daughter is a different person.

1:03:45And now they have to redefine their relationship and actually find a friendship. And I feel like the strongest bond to get to with a parent child is what I mean. This is me, my thoughts right now, that's not me. This is what it is because I'm just living my life and figuring it out. But that for me is what the intimate drama of it is like knowing that in order to fight with out there you have to be together within yourself and with the people that you care and love about. And if you're at war with yourself then you are no use to the war out there. Are you in it as well as writing it? No, I'm just directing it right and then producing it.

1:04:32How's that experience of directing and not acting? I love it. I started, I used to rap, I wrote my fifth play when I was nine. It used to rap plays, I wrote on the show with skins when I was 18, 19. And then I was 19 and wrote two episodes of skins and I just had nothing to say. I was like, I've got to live. And then I've gone back to here and directing and writing. And producing is just that kind of thing. It's got me to fall in love with the art again because I think there's something about acting the more successful you get, the more isolated you become. And I think I fell in love with the collaborative nature of it.

1:05:13And what directing and writing and producing does, I think directing does it allows you to collaborate and allows you to kind of talk in and allows you to have funny jokes, so the grips allows you to... I mean, you're back in it and the thick of it. It's not weird that I'm there. Like, when I go on set and I'm like hanging out, it's like people move like, why are you here? It's just me and so it makes you feel like you don't want to be there because you're not supposed to be there. And then you find out why you're not supposed to be there. Or you're just not required to be there. I think people usually go where they're required to be there.

1:05:42Yeah, yeah. And you have to hold your position, you're playing a position. And I think with this, I fell in love with like, I fell in love with having an idea getting a team of people, having a fucking laugh, yeah, and having a great time being really happy and then producing something that is a reflection of that time that we had. That's great. That's what I fell in love with. And that's what I felt like I found with this. Is that like, oh man, like, just make things with people that I fuck with, I care about. That challenge me, that I grow with, I challenge them. And if we have a laugh, we do have fun jokes, we have like, we spend time.

1:06:26Then there's this thing that we've made that is essentially like a photo album. Of the time that we shared for us. What triggered the initial idea to make it? How did it start? I was in a barbershop, and I grew up. And this guy was talking about these smashing grabs. I wish he was like doing million pound of highest in a minute. He was shouting, I'm saying that, I'm like, this guy is chatting about his business. He's very trust in all of everyone in this barbershop. You know what I kept to listen to. He's like, yeah, no, I'll do this, man. I'll listen, and I was like, I really want to watch that film.

1:07:01I was just chillin' in the barbershop. I was like, waiting for my appointment. This is like 10 years ago. I was like, I really want to watch that film. I'll be sick, though. Because it's all thinking about it. And then, I had a couple of months been buying that guy. I didn't see him again. I said, what have I done? And it kind of was vague, but it kind of like, easily went away. Like, I'm presuming he went prison or whatever. I don't know what kind of happened, and I was like, huh? And I did more digging around it, and I was like, wow, they're doing these million pound highest in a minute. And they were getting paid 200 pounds.

1:07:34So they were rubbing diamonds. And they were getting paid 200 pounds. And I was like, there is conflict in that. Yeah. That says so much about London. That says so much about where we're at. That says so much about the worth. How valuable they believe their life is. There's so much happening in that. And then I was like, I gotta go there. It was like, the aesthetic intrigued me. And then the dichotomy made me dig. Where did the man and the child piece come from? I'm not so conscious. And you don't have children. No. And I think it was... What's the thing you're scared to say? Because what it was...

1:08:22We understood it was like about the eye and we. I mean, that like, I was just obsessed about how people vote against their interests. I mean, because they vote aspirationally. I want to be there. Therefore, I'm going to support that and undermine myself. And not accept where I'm at in that rariality. And what was the intimate manifestation of that? You know what I'm saying? Which was basically a man that is... So about himself, he's not being able to be present for a child. That he's co -create. And so, yeah. So that's where it was in exploring that. It's about starting... I really started the character in a really cr...like...

1:09:10negative place. So they can really go on the journey. And really put in the ugliness up front. You know what I mean? And what I've found in this process, when you put the ugliness up front, it then triggers people. Because some people go, I wish I could do that. You know what I mean? I wish I could be like that. You know what I'm saying? It was like... But there is a respect there, because that person's been honest. And they're telling you who they are. And that's that... Who they are is not serving them. And the journey... And they understand it's not serving them. It's who they've been taught to be.

1:09:43And it's them getting closer to who they are and what they care about. That's the journey of Izzy in this. And then Benji as a... The boy accelerates that journey within him. And then he learns. Benji learns and grows and... And for himself as well. At what point did the father and son appear in the creation of the story? Because the first story that you told me inspired by the conversation at the barbershop, it's not that. No. So at what point did it the father and son show up? We sure tasted tape. So we showed in the barbershop. We showed a taste tape. And I wanted it to be like reservoir dogs in the barbershop.

1:10:22And that's what we showed. And then it was just styled. It was just cool. It didn't mean anything. Judging from him. And then it was just these iterations about like what's he doing it for? He's doing it for his kid and then the kid was like a baby. He's like a baby. I was like this and it was like it was like it's no warping. It was like, but the reality is it grew as we grew. It's essentially. I directed with Kid Boy Tavarez and it as we grew it grew. And as we were more frank. I can speak for myself. I was more frank with myself. I was more frank with my blind sports. It then got well with this.

1:11:00Okay, we have to go. We have to go. And the kid torn going. All right, cool. But I don't think that decision of that boy that man having a kid was out of nowhere. But I just don't think the movie is aware that we went there. Judson. And I don't think it's like it's just things that are coming out that feels right. That feels right. But it's not like, shoot. Because I just I don't think I was that aware in my creativity to know that. I mean, one time when I first wrote on skins, this is about this girl who has become pregnant. And she's got to decide whether she's going to go drama school or have this baby.

1:11:35No drama school. Look, for a reason. Because music school have this baby. And then when I watched it back when I was 18, I was sitting there. I was like, oh, this is about my wrestling with the fact that if I'm going to go drama school or if I'm going to just go fuck it, I'm going to go for this career. And it just it was coming out. And that's why I just felt like I could just do it. But I'm not aware. Yeah. It's like a dream. You don't know what it means when it's happening. But if you look years later, if you wrote it down, it's like, oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So I think that's where the father's son came in because there are questions that you want to explore in the same way that I want to explore this aesthetic this world, those questions.

1:12:15And then we sit in the future, not to distance future because we wanted it to feel big. And we wanted to be felt free from the rigidity of reality right now. And actually be able to use our imagination. Yeah. And then actually go imagine and then actually tell more of the truth when you use more of your imagination. Did you have a full script before starting the film or was it something that evolved as you're making it? Evolved continuously. Definitely. It was like, and that was the process because of the what I realized is it's a reflection of the people that are involved. Did you start with an outline or anything?

1:13:00Or was it just right at the beginning of the process? Yeah. An outline. An outline. An outline. I wrote an outline. And we sit in outline of to the end or was it an outline of this is how the story starts. The taste of was just an outline of a taste of and what like this specific scene that had a loose arc and then had a loose beginning and end but that that version of film would have been like 20 minutes. Then when we did that we expanded on it and then I did the whole outline to an end. And then you have that outline and then you go back and forth with the production company and then you're going back forward producers and building it up.

1:13:33And then you get the line to a more realized outline and then you'll go to script and then you write that script. The script that I wrote is not the film. At first I wrote a film that's there. So it kept on evolving and kept on like the process allowed it to come to. Would you say that it's better than the script or different than the script? It's more realized than the script. It's more realized than the first ever draft. It's more succinct. It's more pointed. It's more honest. It's more in service. I think that felt, I'll be real. I think that first draft was trying to show how good I can write.

1:14:17And I thought it was well written script, but who cares? So I think that I think a lot of ego had to die in me and in all the people in order for us to get to where we got to. I mean I started the script back at 23, 24 so I was trying to have a negative experience when I was 19 when I wrote a script. And I wanted to prove how good I was. I was in that good state, good great state. And then I think the story suffered because of too much media. At any point did you consider it being a series as opposed to a film? No. I've written so many versions but I could have a series worth of it. But now I love film.

1:15:04I love the completeness of film. I love the fact that in a pandemic I'm just watching something from the 70s. Randomly, from the 50s. I'm just there. I don't think you do that with TV shows. Even though I love Twilight Zone. I was going to bring up Twilight Zone earlier. I really was when you described it being the way you described it rooted in reality. But being able to go beyond reality I was thinking oh like a father and son story taking place in the Twilight Zone. Yes exactly that. Exactly that way that basically is he works at a funeral home that turns bodies into trees. You mean because they've got this whole technology and turns bodies into trees and because they run out of space.

1:15:50I mean they need to help the environment to run out of cemetery space. And if you have money you have the option to choose where your tree is and if you don't you don't. You mean it's like and that's where it's just like exploring what the principles and the conflicts of now through it. It's a real version of it. Let's imagine, let's just go there and to the kitchen is this community that feels like an estate. It feels like a block but it's a whole town, it's a whole community. It's supposed to feel like London. It's supposed to feel like this is like you're a week like like I was fighting my book and researcher.

1:16:34I love I'm just about like London so interesting as a city because it was bombed. People don't actually forget that. Paris wasn't because it was occupied and London was. And so a lot of it's temporary and what I realized was doing a research a lot of in the blitz. It was fear and not just bombed London and people were panic panic panic. And then when they survived what then happened was like a shaman principal. There was an attitude like the fuck and there was less fear the more they bombed. So it was having to opposite it was making them more resilient. And I was like oh that is still in we are in a lineage of that.

1:17:19That's still here. That's really interesting. That's still here. That result the positive outlook of that trauma still exists within the essence of London. I saw that when I was on a bus when I was like 11 I went to big boys school. I went to a boy's school. I'm on a bus now. The brothers, the older boys, they're like all right we try and get off the bus. The drugs like you know what I get off the bus and he's like open the thing, press the emergency button in the middle of the road and walk down. What the fuck? That I could see that. Do you know what I mean? It's an attitude. Fucking shit. I'm not really giving me this like that and that's what I wanted to.

1:18:01Show. And it's what I've been around and what I've seen and what I've feeling me. You know what I mean? It's like, and I think a lot of like my career and what I've done is because like bro like you can hit me and I'll get stronger. My thing I need to stop because I have in the past gone to be hit in all the growth. Which is the different thing that I'm learning to to leave. But I just saw that I thought that was interesting and I just saw that like I wanted that essence. I mean but it's about how do you imagine that essence, how do you cinematically articulate it? Tell me about the London New York grew up in.

1:18:45Grop in a, I was born in Camden Town. Very punk. Very counter, cultured or anything. Was this after punk rock or during punk rock? Nice like yeah, I was born in 89. And so then my first memories as a scene like people were spikes. I think it was just the point where people were still believing in it but it was at the tail end of true punk. But it still had that kind of like there was just no place in fucking England that it was like Camden. And it's still like that. And massive drug culture in Camden. And you're exposed to a lot of them and one time this guy came on the bus and he had spikes on his boots, spikes on his trousers, spikes on his jeans.

1:19:32And he had a powerful, spaggy hair. And I'm looking at him like what the fuck is happening? Like six like, yo, I'm looking at my mum doesn't just not worry, no one else is better than I did. And then it made me go, oh then why I won't look at him weird then. So it taught me that people are supposed to be different. You mean it just a bit, that's the punk actually living with that punk energy is like, okay you different uncle. But it's accepting. The person that does not affect my life, why would I go? It's not like even I was like, everyone can have a good, okay cool and I behaved. Nuts, the longer I grew up with, but also it's like I grew up in a block in a state and it's just that kind of danger, that kind of excitement, that kind of like everyone's funny.

1:20:16Everyone is up to a scheme, everyone is, there's all these like, it's like probably 95 doors and everyone, there's something happening, there's arguments, there's this, there's that. There's like, there's like people losing, people losing their kids to the system, people like winning the lottery because they won like 500 pounds or there's everyone, there's like, there's so much life and also for me it was like, you weren't defined by what you didn't have and I feel like minute I moved, I got better grades and I went to a better school because I got better grades. I got good grades and then what I have says, I don't think the school was better, I think the school was like seen as better or they allowed kids with good grades in and they didn't allow kids with not good grades in.

1:21:07I then became aware that I was working class and that idea and my identity was in conjunction to another class's identity and the whole class and I was like, but once I went I was in. I owe you when that happened. 1617, but before that. It's a long time. Yeah, so there's something I'm saying before that it was just like everyone's in it. Yeah. Did you say it was happy childhood? I would say yes and no. I would say that like it was happy, it was joyous, it was fun and it was up to scheming, it makes you like, you get your early, like, or at call, how'd you play with this trolley? You know what I mean?

1:21:50You learn how to just play with things around you or at call, for own water bombs, people running the streets and you know what I mean? It's like, but it's real life. Like the blocks of field with people that like, what, out in hostels, majority with single mothers and they've got a property. And you kind of like getting yourself up and build yourself up. This is the reality of my block and then you leave. I was really resentful of gentrification and then in this process I realized that the junction nature of London is London. The kind of people coming in and out, it's like, what was the Irish people doing?

1:22:35That's what makes London London. The Jamaican, yeah, it's the Somalis, it's the, it's the Kosovens, it's the, there's a new wave come out. You come in, leave. I mean, if that whole thing about things are always supposed to stay the same, holding on to that is hurting yourself. And it's just, it's supposed to move. It's actually, I've worked hard to stay in and I realise everyone's moved. So then what my fighting to stay for, this place isn't the thing, it's the people. So that's why this, it was exploring that nature when people say, nah, I'm staying, but then what's the reality of like, people go, you should stay.

1:23:16But it's like, say if your kid doesn't feel safe, what a fuck are you staying? And then it's like, of course. And people don't actually realise, oh, this is real life. And I wanted to kind of show the side. Also, you didn't choose it originally. No, do you just happen to be there? It's comfort, it's familiarity. And it's whether, if you had, what's that I love now, and I put down all the decisions I make in my life, it's like, if I started this now, would I decide, would we decide to do it this way? It's not friendly. In the end of the, it's that, like, I didn't choose to grow up where I grew up.

1:23:50And then you got to a point where like, would I choose to stay this block, without choose here? Probably not, but it's just what I know. Yeah. And it's that. Tell me about your family. Gratting my mum, my older sister. How much older? Eight years. Too long time. Yeah. And yeah, like, from Uganda, you don't both own it. So I was the only one that was born in England. Earlier you said, people in your family didn't speak English? Obviously, my mum, early years, just saying it's like, she came to England to get birth to me. Wow. So like, it was, she learned English and my life was a reflection of like, of that, do you speak Uganda?

1:24:34No, I don't speak Uganda. Like, she spoke to me in English. Yeah. That was our thing. But so there's a lot of things that I'm not, I don't have access to, but I do have access to in the sense that I can understand certain things. But I like, I read body language. And understand that that is a true language. And I take that in and I'll retone. I'll listen to tone to really understand. So there's like, I probably go to Uganda, there's, I have an aunt, either doesn't speak English. I don't speak look at me, I have a great time. Do you mean it's not like, it's not like that, but yeah. So when I'm kind of started from nothing, kind of grew everything, you know.

1:25:13Never make your dad. They does a kid, and then he left my life and then he passed away when I was really young. And then I didn't really have a relationship, no. An extended family or just your mom moved? I had aunties and cousins in London. In London. I had family in London and basically it was like, it was cool within, I think, you know, family stuff happened. And then I didn't really, you know, beef in the family and then suddenly we didn't really work cool anymore. So then it was just that kind of the nuclear element of our family by like post like 19. But I've got cousins in London, I've got a family of London.

1:25:57Was there music played in your house? Yeah. Lots like Boney M, Abba. I'm a love, Abba. I'm a love, Elton John, I'm a love of Queen, Michael Jackson. There's this, you can't know, it's called Philip. You know, in a bit of it, he's got this song called Born in Africa and a song called Integbe. And then whenever I listen to it, it just triggers me and just such sweet music. Like, and what's interesting about that time is like, no matter how much money you had, you had a great sound system. Everyone had a great sound system. And yeah, music was just everything. It was just like, it was always played, always played in my house.

1:26:37A lot of those guys. I love Abba. Abba is called. Yeah. Trying to picture it. How tall are the buildings? So including ground. Yeah. Because you guys include this four. So it's three, we would say three, but it's four. Yeah. And only the top floor had up stairs. Yeah. And it wasn't like a high rise, but it was big. And if you go on top floor, you can see down. And you can see a great view of London. You can see all the buildings. If you're at the top floor, that's where I wrote. When I wrote the script, wrote this woman, Cynthia, you know, a past RIP, she used to travel to Africa for half the year.

1:27:17And then like, allowed me to house it. And I would write there. And she was at the top flat. And I could see the whole of London whilst I was writing. So it was a bit like, you could see the view. Not too high, but you could see. It's a good thing. Were there buildings that you were in the highest building to the area? Or as high as the highest buildings in the area? It's as high as the highest building. There were no skyscrapers around you. No, it was just like kind of like medium sized buildings around. It wasn't really a skyscraper environment. It was kind of the borderline of Camden in Iceland.

1:27:53It's kind of like, I would say like a no man's land. It doesn't have the name of the area. People call it Cantalos or St. Pankhurst. You can say it's Kenchtyan. You can say it's Camden. It's like, you could say it's near Market Road. It's like a kind of like near Cali Road. It was just this area, but it was not a lot of high rises. And it was like, it's amazing. Aftrobe Tufts, pitches at Market Road that everyone would play games in. And so the best footballers around the area would go there. And all these teams would go there. We'd go there to play games. And it was a block across the road. It was a petrol station there.

1:28:26And it was like, what was part down the road? No, it wasn't. They weren't no high rises there. Like, no. Have you ever done any kind of therapy? Yeah. It's helpful. Yeah, man. To kind of, a lot has happened in my head. I've experienced a lot of scene a lot. So it's good to let out. To kind of like, work on not judging myself. And really, strengthen that muscle in me. And like acceptance. And having, and it's easy someone to partner up to accept things. You know what I'm saying? And going, right, call us accept that. And seeing it is that something that I did as opposed to who I am. And knowing that I did that, that's not me.

1:29:15You know what I mean? I think it gave me the point of view. I fought with a point of view. And it allowed me to kind of like, grow and see things how they are. And accept and believe. It's like, we see believers, ugly word. It's someone's like, it's that way in Clango. So I believe you. That is that. And then you have to call in the, the conflict comes from not believing. Resisting in that acceptance. So I think it's helped me with that. Have you done for it? I have. You've done all different kinds. And it's interesting. I remember the first time I did therapy. I didn't know how I felt about anything.

1:29:54And I didn't know how to talk about it at all. Like it was really difficult at first. Did you see that you're all as therapeutic or catholic or what? How did you see it at the time and how did you see it now in that area? You're creation. You're creating it. I think it's always therapeutic. It always feels good. But it's, it feels good because it's the, there's nothing there. And then there's something there. And it's something you like. That's cool. It's a great feeling. And when it goes from not good to good, it's a great feeling. Like that, the moment when it shifts from this kind of amorphous mediocre thing into something you really care about, that's a great feeling.

1:30:35It's an addictive feeling. How is performing comedy different than performing drama? Or is it different? I'm really happy that I started out doing comedy because I think it's made me a stronger dramatic actor because it, you know the importance of rhythm. Rhythm is what? I feel make something funny and pockets and, and placement. And for me, I feel drama is less rigid. I see laughing is dancing. There's a tune that you can say that people won't even understand me. Like I've done it before when people don't understand what I've done. That can trigger a laugh in someone. Just treat the rhythm of the rhythm.

1:31:29Through the rhythm. Because that's what I found. It's like you're signaling. This is funny. It doesn't even matter what the words are. That, and then it allows you to place what's being said in a different place within someone. And I think when drama is having a bit less control, and I've never really thought about this. I probably will have a much different answer when I leave and I come back. But I do, I do think that I do, do rhythmic things in drama because there is certain pockets that you think, but I'm just less beholden to the result. There's also a different, the feedback mechanism in comedy is immediate.

1:32:16People laugh where they don't. Whereas in drama, can you always know when it's landing? You can feel if people are listening. If people are leaning in. It's like, Leaf and Vand just quote, they said to Chris Rock, he was like, anyone can make an audience screen, but can you help make them quiet? I feel like in drama, there's a thing that there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a kind of like, that you're kind of searching for. There's like an emptiness in the space that you are searching for when you are saying. And it comes with like a, feellessness of getting straight to what you mean. And maybe that creates a vibe or something like that.

1:33:07There's a sound that I am searching for that just happens. And it's not necessary to do with what people say. Because when I'm saying everyone's at work that's watching what you do. They're focusing something else. So it's a sound that, so away from that, there's an emptiness that, there's a, there's a silence that you're looking for that allows to know that you're in an interesting place that you can keep going in. It sounds great. It sounds like a great place to be. Nice, very, so it's easy when I did the cry and see it and get out. There was some place that we went to, me and Catherine that meant that it was like, we're in here and people are too scared to move or it's the equivalent of like someone's on the floor, they dislocated their shoulder.

1:34:01Fuck, you want to help but anything you do, hesitate that like, hesitation, that like, cautiousness is what's created, I think. It's the only way I could describe it right now in this corner room. It's a very palpable, alive space you're describing. There's a void in it is what it sounds like. There's space in it. It sounds great. It's like people move out the way and I let the person just give them space. It's interesting because we will make the audience lean in but anyone around there will lean out. You understand? And then they just create it more space for you than it allows it to grow out more.

1:34:46I think that's the void, it's like a void that's collectively people just allowing it to grow. I can sometimes feel when you're in those spaces in their moments. It sounds mystical. It's mysterious, you can't be articulated, it's to be felt. You can't describe how you dance, you can't describe why you dance. There's things that are just out of the remit of vocabulary. And I think we're so rigid in the sense that if you can't describe it then it doesn't exist. It's crazy. It's actually crazy. I mean there's stuff that you're not supposed to and I think my family is just being less western and thinking.

1:35:38That's what I grew up in. That's what it is. You actually accept that. You know it's that. And you know it's real. You don't question it, you don't even interrogate it. It's just there. It doesn't look there to be able to give you accept that. That's what it was when I was doing improv when I wanted... When I was doing dramatic I wanted people to be scared to talk. People watching this scare to cough. They're scared to disrupt that moment. You know what I mean? There's a nervousness that... That dramatic and I think comedy allows... is a release. Well, almost opposites from what you're saying.

1:36:22Because the comedy is an energy out and the drama is more of an energy in. Yeah, it's like... Contain. Contain. Yeah. Yeah. That's taking all that. It's really exciting. Yeah, and that creates a kind of... Now I realize that I kind of create... I sometimes I'll create that space before the take to make it easier to come through, especially if I'm in pressurized situations where I have to hit it. From this one take, I'll create... I'll create that move before it, like I say, they were rolling and... MMA say action and I just won't do anything. If I'm leading the act first thing, I won't do anything until I feel it.

1:37:08Then I'll go as opposed to using the scene to create it. I think that's what my experience has taught me just like... It's still going... I go in and I say we go. It goes when it hits and it feels and then you're just in the space. Because when everyone's silent and waiting that uncompabilit... It creates it itself. It creates itself. And so then you're able to just... It's able to come to just way easier. That's when I might have got one take left. And you've got to do it. You have to control the space. It's also... Patient sounds like such a key piece of the process of being comfortable waiting.

1:37:56It's audacity. That's what I'm talking about. It's audacity is being silently audacious. Yeah, it shows confidence. Yeah, it's worthwhile. Do you think of yourself as a spiritual person? Yeah, I do. One of them brought me up in the church. Maybe read a Bible every night. I'd read Psalm and Proverbs. And I think ingesting that every night meant I knew things. I remember I would say certain things like school. I'm like, where the fuck is that come from? I'm not supposed to be about that. I think I believe ingesting and believe something and then... I don't know what is... I thought it was the word spiritual means.

1:38:43I can't lie. People say it. I think I'm in a place where like, what does that even mean? I think I know what religious means. I don't believe I'm a religious... Because I don't go church every Sunday. But what does it mean to you? I feel like you feel connected to something larger than yourself. Yeah, I would say that. If that's what's being said, I would say that there's... I would say that if I thought about my life and my career, I wouldn't get here. And I feel like I'm being used. And things are coming through me. That is straight -up spirituality right there. That's spiritual. I think, yeah, 100%.

1:39:27I think a lot of the things that have done have come to me and have come through me. I've not been premeditated. I think I come from a lot of faith. What they say, the illusion is faith without God. And I feel that, yeah, I think I do think there's more than what people say makes sense. That doesn't even make sense to me. That's what it is. It's like what logically makes sense. That doesn't really make sense in the stuff that I've seen and the stuff that's happened in my life and the stuff that's happened in other people's lives. And I do think that it's like, do you ever think I'm a firm believer like you are?

1:40:06Anyone in a senior life is a reflection of you in some way, shape or form, whether you want to see it or not. Because why does it stick? And so, yeah, in that regard, yeah, I do believe. What is spirituality means to you? A sense of connection, a sense of there's more that we're not doing this ourselves. There's a bigger thing going on where participants or vehicles for something larger. Yeah. I think most creative people can't help but feel it. It's like it comes, it's in the territory of what we do. That we experience these things that rationally don't always make sense. Yet we watched these things unfold in the same way that you told the story about when you were pointing and your friends couldn't see the thing that you were seeing and then you showed it to them by doing it.

1:41:06It's that same idea, the fact that you couldn't recognize something that other people can't see. I think that's a form of a spiritual practice. Yeah. I've not been gifted a level of sight in things. Is it the nature of the story or is it the embodiment that gets into you beyond work? I don't think it's an embodied, it's the intention. So it's the nature of the story. And the beyond work is like what I interpret in my interpretation of that would be like right beyond in your life. If we were looking at the story like get out, right? I see when get out happened. What happened was it was I was an avatar of a lot of people's feelings that they never knew that they had.

1:42:01And so I would walk on the street and black women would come and hug me and leave. Just leave, nothing to say. Hug me, someone would cry. I was like what the fuck is happening? And I think the strength of that narrative that Jordan built and the fact that I embodied it meant that people were receiving me as that parable, as that idea, as that concept. And then you are basically in the center of an idea, that nature that's been built around you and because you embodied the nature that was around you, therefore everything is now projected upon you. You know what I mean? And that sort of energy. And being in different positions, because I do think the story and narratives is like formation in the sports.

1:42:57Being in different positions in the narrative, so you feel villain, you're like in a different certain things. If you're like a supporting character in a different position, people then receive you different as a product of that embodiment essentially. And the nature of the narrative and the art that you were expressing. And it's just something that moved you. That is in your life. Is one thing I've interpreted. How do you say success is different than you would have imagined it? People see you less. People see you less. See you less, yeah. There's a different to success and recognition. Yeah.

1:43:37There are two different concepts. That's one thing I realize. Success is like your part of a team, it's that you're up, this is that you have a people, people want to be relying on success. If you are recognized, then a lot is projected upon you. A lot of people is insecurities and fears and then you are then now like someone to be projected upon as opposed to a person. But what it does, it gives me more insight into them. And what I would say, you see how people saw you. Because it's something shifted. You mean? And you see what they care about, you see? But you know that you're not being seen in that sense.

1:44:18One time, I was asking you and then I went to a party after you for a party for Judas and Slavs people, everyone came. And it was the only time I walked around with your school. That shit is powerful. That is a powerful object. People are moved by it. I was like, I'm holding something crazy. It's not even hard to even describe. I was just like, I'm holding something that people just like, what the fuck? So much is like, in your, you disappear. But you are now, you know what I mean? And I think I lived out because I've won it and so people have their attitudes of it. But then I think that was the only time I really saw it clearly because I had it in my hand.

1:45:07Yes. And it was like, whoa, like. And so success, for me, has made me have to confront things in myself. And like, come to stay safe, to be clear, and to keep creating. I have to let go of things to grow and still do what I do. Because it's just an exasperial.

1:45:38It turns a volume up to 11 in every department. And I had to learn to skill in facing things. And being direct to my communications, I can't be as internal as I've been. That's no longer beneficial. So success is a wild. And I don't even think I've kind of really gone into it and like, really engaged with the spoils of it because it happened layer in my 20s. My 2728 and done that level. But like it was, it's a lot to, I've seen a lot. Yeah. And it's strange. It's odd. Yeah. It's odd, man. Yeah. Like it's a... Natural. No. I know I wanted to be successful. Because I was like, what's the point of doing something?

1:46:36I was always like that since the very beginning. But I just didn't, I didn't really think of all the sides of it. But I think that's what makes you go there. Because if you really thought about all the sides of it, you probably wouldn't go there. Yeah. And saying and it just becomes a thing. It's not necessary. Anything better. It's just now this thing that you have to deal with all the sides of. But it means that there's a certain group of people that means that you're not as human as you once was. Because you now have that success there for your life is your problems aren't really real problems.

1:47:11They're not going to receive it like that because of... And you have a different set of problems. Like when you're making something when you're young, sticks are low. Now when you make something, a lot of people can see it. And now it's much more vulnerable position to be in. Because there's an expectation that wasn't there before. I've had to really strengthen my fearless muscle. The most successful, of course. I've had to really be like an energy is way more exposed, way more vulnerable, way more. And I've had to learn how to manage that. How did you meet Jordan? The zoom or Skype or Skype back in the day.

1:47:54He'd watch Black Mirror. It's Black Mirror episode I did. It's nearly 12 years ago I did that. And then he saw that. And he was like, oh this script. I was saying to you, you know. So he already had the script. He sent it to the script. And then I said it. And I was at that time I was reading the script today. I was just reading my favourite films because I was writing the kitchen. I was learning how to write, like self -taught, like that. So I was just reading the script today. And what I realised in that process, I learnt what I liked. And that was invaluable. So when this script came in, I wasn't acting.

1:48:28I stopped acting for like a year and a half. And then I was like, this script came in, I was like, that. What the fuck is that? A lot of people my team didn't understand what it was. They were like, well, and I went to Jordan with that. Brother, you know, you understand. You don't have work. I know you know. And he's like, yeah. And he knew me, he knew me. Yeah. Like, and I was like, this is the thing, he's like, yep. And then like, and then that was the first time I spoke to him. And then, Sicario came out. It's the weakest Sicario. I was in LA, came out. And then I was just in LA. I was like, it's wise for me to be here to see what it comes.

1:49:06And then the get out audition was around that time. And I auditioned for it. And the first time I met him in person. And he was just really supportive of me. And my ideas, my ideas, like me, they believed in what I could do. Then I did the crying scene in the audition. Another other scene, I think the scene by the lake. I think he was like, yep, good role in the room. But then I was kind of like, I've had that before. So I was like, I'm not going to believe it. Because it's just like, it's just too heartbreaking. Like, to actually believe in it and then it doesn't work out. It's like cool. Then he met up with me again and he spoke to me about his philosophy.

1:49:45And he's like, this and how he saw cinema and film. And then I kind of was like, I live with my first lead role in the film. So I was like, asking questions about what you want. This is Daniel. But yeah, that's how we first met. What was it that spoke to you when you read the script? I felt that shit, man. I felt like it. I felt like it, man. I was so angry, bro. I was so angry, you know, it's age of my life. And I think I stopped acting for a year and a half. And I remember I knew I was like, anything I do next, I'm gonna go crazy. I got so much shit in me. And then I was so full. And then it came.

1:50:29And I was like, well, this is what I realized is not a lot of things allow you to give everything. And I was like, well, this is the space for me to give everything. And it was so angry. And so concise and so articulate about its angle. And it was so angry that I think that 85 % of the film is repressed angle. Which I think is so honest. In the straight -less nature of just having to like, you know, be polite to accommodate for others' feelings when people are not accommodating for yours. And how that pressure cooker goes over the top. But usually is the real anger is that the fact that you let it happen.

1:51:18I felt that in the script. Allowing yourself to be betrayed. And but leaving in things that hurt you. I felt that. And I felt the kind of like, this shit is entertaining with it. Because for me, if it's not entertaining with the point, I don't think I'm here for that. To just make things as a piece of visceral art. I enjoy things like that. But I don't think I'm here to make things like that. I think there's loads of people that can do that. For me, it has to be digestible to people that don't understand cinema in a deep way. Because I'm not in communion. I'm not communicating with them. That's my friends.

1:52:01I can use it back and they watch French films with my friends. And then I ask them what they think. And then I would understand what they like and what they don't. So that's how the script made me feel. How is acting in a movie different than acting in front of an audience? Acting in the film is quiet. You're like seducing the camera. You're like, what I choose to come in, come to me. You can do that on stage. There's elements you do that on stage. But the fundamental things, if you're at a certain level of fear, you have to be heard by someone at the back. So there's a level of projection that means you're going to.

1:52:40But also the contract's different. People are leaving their house, baying a ticket. And they understand to see you in person. And they are believing that you're not you. And like, not all the time, the sets always there. It's like there's a level of imagination that a theater audience needs that they come with you on. While there's a level of, in film, there's a level of everything is real. This is the world, this is what's happening, everything's exactly in the end. And when it's not there, why is that not there? But if someone then double, if someone is like 24 and they're playing a baby, you know, why is it 24?

1:53:18You're playing a baby. You just accept it, that's the form and that's the style. There's just a different contract. I think on stage you're the editor. And so you're carrying the arc and you're managing the arc. That's a big point. I think that's a big point. Yeah, with the decisions that you've made with the director in the rehearsal period. Yeah. And whilst in film, I feel like what I do, I see acting is helping someone say something. And I'm giving you all these different ingredients and spices and styles into the stew. So when you go and make your stew, you're like, I like that one. And then you can pick what you want.

1:53:58That's your choice. Do you mean I'm not part of that process? Do you typically ask directors a lot of questions or no? When I don't understand something, if I feel something doesn't make an eight sense, I think a lot of times, a lot of the scenes have been written for the scene. And I'm firm believer like, what is the scene interrupting? This person is going to do something. So this scene happens and it's going to interrupt. So he's not coming into the scene to do the scene. You know what I mean? So when I feel like that, I feel like I was 10 million questions because fundamentally, this doesn't really make sense.

1:54:32This doesn't make sense. But if I believe in it, I'm not going to ask questions. I just believe I trust. It's written well, cool, let's go. How important is it for you to believe the characters you're playing? What believe in what they say? It's important for me to believe that they believe it. If I don't feel they believe it, then I can't believe it. And if they believe it, you believe it because that's your... Yeah, it's true for them. And then you can find why it's true. You know what I'm saying? It's like they believe even if it doesn't serve them. It's made me move away from good and bad.

1:55:10And go towards what serves you, what doesn't. And people believe in things that don't serve them. Create a negative reality for them. All the time. Yeah, exactly. All the time. But they believe in it. And then there's a conviction to it. And I got to know if they believe it. Yeah, it's a good self -limiting belief. How often does your understanding of a character change over time? Like from the time you start a movie to the time you finish a movie, are you 100 % that person before the first day shooting? Or does it evolve over the... It does evolve. Are you going to different scenes? And you're there.

1:55:48I remember there's one time I played someone and then you're walking in the scene and you're talking and you're like, oh, this guy fucks. A lot of girls. Just because the way he's... You can encourage me. The way I engaged with this woman and this... I was like, oh, like, if you're like this and you're gonna indulge. Yeah. Jansana, that wasn't something I thought about before. But it was in the scene and it was like, oh, and then it changed how then I engaged with everything else after that. It's really interesting. I mean, you could just find things and go, oh, shit. This is really... But you need the experience to reveal the character.

1:56:24You can't... The character's not just something you've made by yourself. Like, it's in a way like, you find out, or I find out about myself with someone. Sometimes you need someone there to kind of reflect and go, oh, shit. Oh, yeah, I do think that. I don't know what I felt like that about dramatic acting. Yeah. I think there's this, you know, before sunset. This film, Ethan Hawke, is in it. But the woman in the film is basically saying, they were asking like, what's good? And then basically she was like, between us, it's what exists between connection essentially. I think that when I'm acting, it's like, if you're true and present, you find things more things.

1:57:05That's why I don't come in there with too much preconceived notions and thoughts. Because it's going to reveal more to you if you have less in the door. It also makes sense that the character probably knows less about themselves. People don't study themselves. They just do what they do. And also, I have an awareness on him. He doesn't have the awareness. So it'll be incorrect for me to play that awareness that I've discovered. I'm just going to action it. And I'm going to use it in a slight look. And someone that has been exposed to a mind like that goes, oh, oh, I know what that is. Yeah. Just saying that sort of something like, with those, I played, I said to your murderer.

1:57:52And it's not that he's scary. I just didn't play it scary. I played it with a lot of love. But it's the fact that he's bored. That's what makes it scary. Because then how many murders has he done? The fact that he's creative. He's made new ways. How did you get there? It's the kind of, the office nature of him. Makes it go, what the fuck? And then the mind goes, but he's not aware that he's, he thinks that's really normal. And that's what makes it even scary. Yeah. He thinks it's very normal. Like, this is what, what else would I do? It's what I mean. It's like, that mentality is what is like, whoa, you are down a street that not a lot of people touch.

1:58:43Yeah. You mean, and that, not necessarily, what they say is a hitch -cuffing. It's not the, the terror is not in the bangers in the anticipation of it. Yeah, it's the bomb that's hidden under the table that the audience knows about and the characters don't. Yeah. And you mean, and it's just about knowing that something could happen, but not knowing what, and it's about that, just knowing. The, what I played with, I was, he wasn't aware that he, he doesn't think, he doesn't think it's bad. That's what's scary. Yeah. He thinks he's doing the right thing. And it's like, how do you get to that belief?

1:59:19I got him. Yeah. Whatever, cool. And then just carry on reading the book off. That is, the fact that it doesn't affect you means that what have you seen as a kid? That was a fictitious character, yes. Do you look for real world references, not even necessarily like that? Like, do you see someone who has a certain mannerism and think, oh, I could use that mannerism in this character? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, in Windows, like, I don't know what he's done, was, I, like, a lot of it was like, in one scene was Benny Siegel. And I saw this video, Benny Siegel, when I was younger, I was 16, and he popped the mind of him, and then PD Crack was rapping.

1:59:59And then Benny Siegel was just listening to him. But how close he was listening to him, and he goes, that's odd. He didn't understand personal space in that moment. And then he goes, what's that? And I think, I'll see certain things and go, what's that? Majority of time, that's like a rare occasion. Majority of time is the people I've seen and people have been exposed to. And it's an energy that, like, just in real life, I go, I've seen that energy, and I know that energy. And then you, I want, I want real life in the film. So, the people that I've actually met, or people that I've been around, and people that I've seen, and people that I've, like, spoken to, because I think, like, the truth is way weirdo.

2:00:43Yeah. And it's the only way you can really get those, like you say, people are so strange, that if you make it up, it won't be strange is what they're really like. You'd be too limited. Yeah. You would go, I do like, it's like this, and it's more of an attitude. Remember one time there was, I was in research for kitchen, and then like this guy, he's kind of like, he's been in the game, he's done a lot. And then I asked him one time, I was like, you know, sometimes when I see certain guys, and you just know their, their on stuff, you know they've done something, you know something crazy about that.

2:01:18And I said, what is that? And how he articulated it was like, is when they've done something they can never figure themselves for. He's like, it's like if they rub their ground. You know what I mean? It's not like a, it's a done something that they like, that they had to do. They just can't face themselves. So they just like, fuck it. Bet's a rough. They've gone over the threshold. Yeah. I mean, where it could be is minor or is big, they've violated something that they didn't want to violate. They've under like, it's that, what that builds and what that grows into someone, what that explores, what that matures.

2:02:00Bet. I find that interesting. Like certain decisions and what you've realised about your character. I want that essence in all characters I play and make. You said you were doing research. What does research look like for you? Conversations. Listen to conversations. Reading. Like, dissertation is reading around. Actually I go places and I'll sit in a place and I will research in the place. So I'll like rent a spot and I'll be in the environment and I would read that I'm in it and I could just go out in the day, come back in like four, five, six, have my food and then just in it. And it's not, it's always about like being in the space.

2:02:46And you just pick up like subtle cues of what it's like? You get nuances and little, it's the new one. It's the details that make people believe for me. It's like you see the people that you want to know, you want to articulate the things that people don't even know about themselves. They're not able to say, they don't even know they have it. That's what you're looking for. And that's what's real. And having something and not knowing you have something makes the character full of. You mean? And that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for like those little nuanced stories, how they behave, certain kind of people, how they, or the light, where do they play?

2:03:23What do they love? Who do they love? No matter what they've done and what the character, who do they love and what, where's the lovin 'ness? And whatever they do, where's the lovin 'ness? And I think once I find that, then it becomes intimate. It's like, certain scenes, you're like, oh, this is come of voyeuristic. I was gonna say, are we just all hungry for intimacy? So that's why it feels so good, when you see a great intimate performance? I think intimacy is very satisfying. And an evolution in intimacy as well. I think it's very satisfying. From what I know right now, I got open. But like, I think, yeah, I would agree with that.

2:04:11I think that is honesty is intimate. I wanna say it's like, truth is what happened. Honesty is how you feel about what happened. That's what I've learned how to be more honest. Yeah. So honesty doesn't have right or wrong associated with it, because it's how you feel. All it is is how you feel. But you're saying both sides of it. You're talking about the bit when you was the victor and the bit that you weren't the victor. You're being honest. Like, you're saying this, like, you're being foot, like you're going, oh, and that person is, oh man, this person is vulnerable. And it allows intimacy to grow.

2:04:48And I feel like sometimes when, I find that in audience, when audience is laugh, it's not funny, these people recognize the honesty. It's a recognition, like, oh, I feel like that's it. I never say that. Can you be more honest or vulnerable in a performance than you can in real life? Is that possible? Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yes. That's fascinating. I can say the contract is pretentious, so you can expose more of yourself. Because there's almost no in repercussions. But what happens is that then there has to be a point where you actually do that for yourself though. And not just do that for money.

2:05:33I'll do that for career trajectory, or leave that for like, validation. You're doing it just because you want to do it. And because it's the true thing to doing it. And now you know how to do it. Like, now you're, you're a professional at doing that. Hmm. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, that's an incredible skill set to be good at. And the fact that it's not required for you to have done it in your life to be able to do it, it's a great gift to yourself to be able to now do it based on the skill set you've built outwardly. But I think it, I didn't feel safe to you. Yeah. The forehand probably.

2:06:16Yeah. In myself. Like I haven't acted since 2021. Because I realized that I'm giving too much to these characters. And I'm like, and actually it's actually now going to do the opposite effect. I'm going to be more withdrawn. More withdrawn if I don't actually just be real as myself. You mean, and then just do it for myself. Yeah. And be real. I think I wanted to be more honest. And just for me in myself, like not like for money, not for like career, not for like anything else. It's just like, yo, in private, in the dark. Yeah. Am I real? Are you real? In the dark? Yeah. To me, because then that always will come out.

2:06:59And it becomes easier as opposed to engineering it. And having like this is a safe space. Because what happens is when you become more successful, you do it less. Yeah. It should do acting every week. Three times a week. I do it once every few years now. Wow, that's interesting. You mean it's not like, so you don't have the... And do you miss it when you're not doing it? I miss the old version of it. Yeah. Because you're just doing it to play. Right. You're just doing it to explore, you're just wondering. And there's no result to it. There's no point to it. Is there any version of it that you could do now that has no stakes just for fun that you could do just to get to do it?

2:07:39I could do, I could create a space. But I do feel like the space that was created then was just... It was reflective of the time as well. And I feel like it was the time when I never was honest. And it was just a complete kind of like, I'm able to exercise all these emotions in this space. You know what I mean? And I was like a teenager. And I feel like I've grown as an artist that I think it will be quite indulgent. That I wouldn't enjoy it. I think now I've got to a different place and more transcendent places when like I'm doing it for something bigger than me. Doing it to serve something. Yes.

2:08:22I do to serve a piece to serve an idea to serve. And I think that getting to that place is just more enriching and rewarding, genuinely than just exploring and playing and doing it. It's just a different, you just moved. Understood. You mean it's like going back to your old school. It's just small now. Yeah. You mean it's just that there's a feeling that there's just, I'm asking, if I created that environment, I would have to create the time. Because the time was as important as me in the space.

2:09:21You know what I mean?