Ezra Koenig (Part 2)

30:01And then on top of that, you know, we finally had enough material that we could switch up the set less and let people take solos and do more covers and have a bit more fun night tonight. And that's something that Macy T and Bayo really came together on, you know, C .T.'s lifelong fish fan. He has roots in the gem world. Bayo's always had a great knack for like making set lists and kind of like knowing how to like run band practice and remembering all the parts and like the, and so we can really come together and kind of treat the show more as like a celebration. So in that sense, it became the best touring experience because it just made touring feel different.

30:41Tell me about the feeling in the rehearsals before you did any shows with extended band what did it feel like in rehearsal. It felt great because like I said, there's always a duality and at times attention between the fact that the vampire we can is a band. Always remember that our biggest song A Punk everybody contributed to. As much as I'm proud of my song book as a songwriter, I didn't come up with, hey, hey, hey on A Punk and truly sometimes I think, what if we didn't have that? Who knows? So we've always had that duality where the band aspects are very important but of course I feel my voice is a songwriter and my freedom as a band leader is also important and there's times where that felt maybe made things feel unsettled and there's something about suddenly realizing, well, whatever I might do in the studio with Ariel, when I bring it to the practice room and I say to the guys, I have no idea how this should sound live and suddenly everybody gets a chance to throw out some ideas and say, wait, what if we went into this other song or a way I have an idea?

31:49Then I started to realize the live and the studio side can be more linked than I thought and they can even in kind of exciting ways. So for instance, I knew that the song Sunflower which is this very simple, so kind of jammy riff.

32:07So I don't have a pick, but you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's a mix of Liddy and riff kind of jammy but I mean, I wanted to keep it short on the record so it's like two and a half minutes or something. And then I realized, I love this riff, there's something I really like about the song but when we just played the two and a half minute version live, it feels underwhelming or something and then to present that to everybody and say, like, where can we take this? And people are throwing out ideas and trying this and they're like, what if we made it more like the dead? And then somebody else is like, I remember kind of talking with C2 because he's the jam of Fishing Out and I was like, okay, what would the dead version be?

32:44And we're doing this kind of light jam and I was like, I don't like it. And he was like, oh, I think you want maybe more like 68 dead where there was that kind of psychedelic heaviness. And then from that we started being like, no, no, no, we want, is it early Sabbath version? And we did this like Sabbath version live and it just felt so good. And you know, that was like a great proof of concept where it's like there is a dialogue and a role that everybody plays and it's very important actually and the records feed the live show and the live show feeds the records in its own way. And so that I think of those rehearsals as a special time where we were kind of entering a new phase and one that turned out to be very positive.

33:23That's great. And did the touring of the fourth album impact the new album? In a sense it did. I think the fourth album made me realize that the show can have a feeling of its own and there were times when I thought a love or a kind of crunchy vibe now maybe we should get even crunchy or on the next album. And then I realized, you know what? You can do whatever you want in your show. Yeah, it's cool to present your new material in a thoughtful way. But also you can just bust out a cover whenever you want. You can go to the city, you want to do a country song, do it. And so in some ways I kind of, I had so much faith in the live show and the group of people that we were doing it with that I kind of realized that we'll have a life of its own regardless of what this record sounds like.

34:13And when I found myself being on the fifth album, being drawn to something grittier, noisier, whatever, I had total faith. I was like this will fit into the live show because anything could fit into the live show. You know, in some ways my attitude towards all five albums has been exactly the same. Whether I've been working with Ross Temeraril or both of them, whether Chris and Chris are playing all over it, whether they're not. I've always had my attitude has more or less been the same. But I think going into this album, I think we developed kind of like a closeness on the five of the bride tour that just naturally led to us like playing together more and there's songs on this album, on the fifth album that is that are very much mean are all in a room.

34:56But then there's songs that did find their groove in the practice room too. So yeah, maybe it's a bit of like a full circle thing. How do you describe what's different about the fifth album? As I've been doing press for it, and you know, I'm not sure if I've nailed it, I've described as being like our noisiest and our hardest album. I mean, there is more distortion and feedback than ever before. But this is the album where I worried the least about singles. Some albums just have singles are just right. A -Punk is just like a good single. Oxford, comma, on the last album, this life in Harmony Hall, as much as that album is all over the place.

35:37Those are just real singles. They sum up the album. This one I just stopped worrying about it quite as much because I fell a little bit like getting too old for that shit to worry about it. And I don't know, I think mean are all really came together. Wanting to explore, for lack of a better word, like, hardness. And sometimes soft things are hard. How would you say lyrically it's different than the fourth album? It's narrower. You know, the fourth album being 18 songs. I wanted to have that kind of slightly kooky, we're here, now we're here. Now we're talking about me, and now we're talking about this guy.

36:13Where's this album, I felt like, has more of a focused intensity. There's a back to New York feeling at the very least as like a setting or a home base or something. I also just think, you know, like with every album, like the World View shifts a little bit. And it's been interesting. I think it's definitely our most spiritual album, which is, you know, it's a funny word. It can be triggering to some people. How would you describe that, your spiritual aspects of the album and your relationship with spirituality? To me, the simplest definition of spirituality is the belief that there is more to reality than the physical world.

36:58Which when you think about it, is more or less what modern science says too. So, you know, the tension between the scientific world and the spiritual world, the US always been a little bit silly. And I think when you dive into that and you really explore it, of course, that can be a source of great comfort to people. And, you know, as I've gotten older, I sometimes feel like it's the ultimate source of comfort, arguably the only real source of comfort than the next phase of the conversation gets tricky. Do you want to call that the universe? Do you want to call it just a sophisticated psychological operation you perform on yourself?

37:36Or do you want to call it God? It's just labels, it's labels. Right, exactly. And it's funny because there's, back to modern vampires, there's, at the time, you know, I didn't know why I was drawn to religious imagery, but there's a song called Yahe, which obviously is a play on Yahweh, which is a name for God. But when I look at that song, it was obviously coming from a kind of rational, materialist, atheistic place. I've always had respect for differing opinions, but I was definitely coming at it from like an outsider of kind of like, well, obviously I don't believe in that. So if I was to talk to this concept called God, it's more or less like I don't get it, but there obviously was like a spiritual yearning.

38:21And when I look at those lyrics now and it rehearsal, I see them, it seems clear as day, on these songs like Everlasting Arms or Yahe, maybe at that phase of my life, I almost had a disappointment because I felt so disconnected from whatever this thing is that we label sometimes, that I was almost disappointed. This is really all there is. So when I think of this album in terms of spirituality, even if it doesn't wear it on its sleeve, there's a different type of engagement with, the word I like the best is reality, you know, sometimes in spiritual literature, it's called the ultimate reality, the supreme reality.

39:00But to me, that's the place where religious people and scientific people can come together. We're talking about what is the truth, the actual truth. So I think this album engages with it in a different way. But of course I see the connections between the albums and how it got here. And it's funny because in some ways with this album, by worrying less about singles, I've tried not to get in the way and think about it less. I mean, you call it different things, but in your book it stands out to me, you use the phrase source a lot. And this feeling that source kind of has its own thing to say, and sometimes you can just let it speak.

39:43And in a way, one funny aspect of it is that, the album title comes from the fact that I saw a cool picture and then my artistic sensibility said, don't mess up this cool picture by throwing vamp our weekend on it, don't throw text on it. And the only text on it was a newspaper headline that was only God was above us. And I thought, that'll do, that's a cool phrase. And then again, it's not because I thought I wanted to use those words or because my artistic sensibility chose those words or even that, I didn't literally didn't even put those words in that order. And then, but it is notable to me.

40:22And I only reflected on this when the album was done that I was like, oh, that's interesting to have, you know, it's a big word to have in an album title. And it's one I could not have pictured ever being an event probably can album title, including on modern vampires. So there's something about that that, I don't know, feels meaningful.

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42:21Was there always music playing in your house when you were growing up? There was always music around. You know, it's something I've been thinking about now having a family of my own because I can tell that we play music in our house less than a lot of people. And you know, because I'm a musician and also my wife has like a lot of music in her family. People always say, oh, do you play music around the house? All the time it's your son like music? And we encourage him to play music. But we don't actually play a lot ambiently. And I think that's true in the house I grew up in as well that my parents weren't always just having tunes going.

42:59It's kind of a quiet house. But I think the flip side of that is when one of my parents took me a side to playing the piece of music or put a record on. It felt very specific. And I still have very specific memories of both of my parents saying something about music they liked because it wasn't always there. So we focus up, you know. Can you remember any examples from either of them of what they played you and why they liked it? I remember my dad highlighting the fact that Ray Davies from the Kings was a very good songwriter. And I remember him playing me Waterloo Sunset kind of on some like, you want to hear a good song?

43:39This guy's a real songwriter. And so that was meaningful to me. And he had some nice play. Blue songs, my own play, classical pieces. Do you think there was an age when it shifted? Like was there a time when you were young where that would happen? Where your father would play a piece of music and your response would be what he's saying is gospel. And I'm learning from him. Yeah. And did there come a time where he would play you something? And you're like, nah, that's not for me. I'd never particularly pushed against my parents' taste. It was all... They could taste. They had good taste. There was like top shelf stuff in the house.

44:22Like, you know, if you look in his record collection, you'll see cool stuff. You'll see the clash and Elvis Costello and the Rolling Stones. And you'll see one or two Billy Joel records. I know he respected Billy Joel. And he told me he saw... He came on his radar because Billy Joel opened for Kinky Friedman somewhere in New York and it was a big Kinky Friedman fan. So I know he respected Billy Joel. But I think a step beyond Billy Joel like a Neil Diamond. There's no Neil Diamond in the house. So when I get kind of older and be like, wow, Neil Diamond's like really cool songwriter, that would be an example of going...

44:58It's almost like I went into the uncool. Yeah. Well, this is kind of related to something we were talking about before. But as I said, a big inspiration for Father of the Bride was Bruce Springsteen's The River. Yeah. And I kind of... And the river, you know, it has the title track and it has Hungry Heart, which was a hit. But I was reading some Bruce book. It might have been one of those 33 and a third books. It made me was about born in the USA. And this is after making Father of the Bride. And I'm pre -reading. They were talking about the albums that led it into Born in the USA, which obviously is his most popular album.

45:35And they said something about, well, you know, the river routinely falls dead last and Springsteen fan poles. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And with the thing I loved about it was that it's classic. It's perfectly imperfect. You can tell he'd let it be shaggy. He'd let it have lightness and silliness. And it's kind of like a joke I had with a friend of mine about how much we actually prefer the white album to Sargent Peppers. But Sargent Peppers will always be the one that, you know, wins the poll. And my friend's joke was he just gives in white albums on Electable, man. And I was like, right, some albums are on Electable.

46:18And it... White albums my favorite, too. Yeah, it's favorite in the catalog. And yet, and yet, I don't, I wouldn't even argue why... Yeah, let Sargent Peppers go take the heat. You know, like that one's supposed to be at the top of the poles. And that's also true that Born in the USA or Nebraska, there are two ends of the spectrum, but you can see what their constituencies are. And the river is somewhere else. You know, and of course it's had its moment in the sun, but partially because probably a Bruce one out of his way to be like, let's celebrate the river's anniversary. But that's one that I find...

46:55Yeah, I go back to that more than his Electable albums. Do you think if the river was a single album, it would have been better received? It would have been better received, but it would be less important in the discography. And you know, it's fun. I think even the White Alps, I read some contemporary, bad reviews. It's the White Alps. Every Alps, yeah, right. Yeah, and you could see how, you know, the easiest criticism is like, Teggies, well, what are we doing here? Well, have Vampire Weekend ever done an acoustic set, meaning an acoustic only show anywhere. We've done so many sessions and small shows, usually put on by like a radio station or something.

47:36It's funny you say that because I've been trying to be more thoughtful when we do these sessions, rather than just, you know, place and like punky song and acoustic guitar and be kind of unsatisfied with it. Really think like, well, which of our material might fit and how can we arrange it? And I've had this idea that one day I'd like to do a... some kind of special tour. I don't know if it's more sit -down theaters or unique venues. That's kind of like our unplugged quiet thing. And I have a good name for it, the quiet dignity tour. That's nice. I look forward to that. I'm feeling it's going to be good.

48:08Yeah, you hear the songs differently. Yeah, it changes your relationship to the songs. Yeah. Tell me about the period of finishing the fourth album, Cycle, thinking about the fifth album, what did you decide in advance, what happened in the studio that was not what you decided in advance? That was an interesting time. The pandemic cut the touring short a bit, so suddenly I had a lot of time to think about the next album. And I think already, you know, the pendulum is always swinging, at least internally within the band. After making our kind of double album with the light next to the heavy and stuff, I kind of felt like this one needs to be tight, and I think I have a sense of focus, maybe a more specific sense of place.

49:01And I found myself kind of reflecting on old New York vibes and not living there anymore. I mean, I still spend plenty of time there, but it's not the main place I live. And yeah, what is that period of history represent to me, you know, 20th century in New York? So I found my mind going there. It's funny after talking about doing all this press. I can't always keep it straight. One thing I've been saying in some of the press, and this is true, is that on Father of the Bride, you know, Ariel who is slightly older than me. He's five years older than me. So he can like, he just remembers the 90s in a different way.

49:41And also, you know, he's born and raised in LA, and he kind of came of age in the punk world. And I remember thinking on Father of the Bride, I was really throwing a very specific type of East Coast reference at him, which, you know, like the jam bands and all this other kind of stuff. And, you know, he's, he can kind of wrap his head around it, anything. But I remember thinking on this album, as we talked about it, and we talked about the trying to attempt a new type of hardness or heaviness, I could also feel like a way that we could become more like in sync or something. You know, our shared references of, you know, punk rock, hip -hop, 90s stuff.

50:25I kind of felt like, alright, after doing this big crazy album together, it was almost like, I was more interested in like finding common ground. Do you feel like the Abumus nostalgic? Yes. Well, yeah, it's a dangerous word because... For you, I don't mean... I don't mean stylistically, but I mean your experience of it, do you feel like you're... It's about a different time in your life. Are you looking back on a different time in your life? Yeah, but not just in my life. I'm almost in these kind of like half -climbed memories of like the world that I saw a tiny bit as a kid, or that I imagined from my parents or even my grandparents era.

51:11This is maybe only tangentially related, but the album cover, which I found just cruising the internet, was taken by this guy, Steven Siegel, who was an amateur, but no less of an artist, a photographer in his 20s that didn't become his main profession. And then we looked through all his other pictures, and there are all these very surreal pictures of these overtures and subway cars. So we get a dialogue going with him, but we'd like to use some of these images. And then at some point, as we're getting closer to the album, coming out, he said, you know, I also have quite a bit of video footage from that same era, which was pretty amazing, because some of the footage was taken at the same time.

51:50So after looking at this image of this overture and subway car for years, see a video of a guy dropping sideways, you know, like inception, style into the subway car, and I was like, well, and as we looked through all that, and as someone who's recently spent a lot of time looking through archival footage, you realize that it's pretty easy to find every year in any major city, some tourist who's set up in the town square and panned around and said, oh, and look at here's the Trafalgar Square, or here's like a famous piata. That's easy to find. Finding somebody who had an artistic eye, filming like the weird perimeter of a city, or these strange moments in an era, that's harder to find.

52:31So we were incredibly blessed that Steven Siegel had all this footage. And I remember as I was editing the Capricorn video with the director and the editor, and you know, our whole creative team, and we were looking at these images, we all were struck by this feeling, they were like, this doesn't just look old, it looks like another planet, it looks like an alternate reality, which is not always how you feel looking at archival stuff. There was, yeah, the nostalgia, which when I think about what does that mean, a kind of semi -painful, pleasant feeling about something that you miss or something, but there's also this feeling where, you know, not only were you not there, it doesn't just feel like something that happened, it feels like something that exists on another plane of reality or something.

53:23And that's when all this stuff with time gets interesting, and the past starts to look more like the future, and all those kind of weird things, but these are all thoughts that have come about working on the album, and looking at the images. When you think back to your time in New York, do you look back fondly on it? Yeah, sure, I do. I mean, I think, you know, it was like definitely the place I came of age, but also, and I'm sure you can relate to this a little bit, like, you know, growing up just outside the city, people who grew up in the city, that can be a real source of pride for them, so you never want to...

54:00Even if you were born there, even if your family's from there, if you didn't spend your age five to 18 there, you have to, you know, I'm from Manhattan, you're from Chicago, you know, kind of back. But the way I've always seen it is, I've always just thought of the New York region, the tri -state area, which is about 30 million people. I've always just thought of it as like the country that my family comes from, and the place that I understand the best, and the place that I've true family history, and every branch of my family began their American journey in New York City, you know, there's not a single exception, even at one grandma who was born in Romania, but she moved to East Village when she was a little girl, so both my parents were born there, I was born there, and so even the New Jersey thing, and the having cousins in Westchester, knowing people from Long Island and Connecticut, to me, that's just the, it's the lens through which I understand everything.

54:59The same way if you were like Belgian, which is smaller than the tri -state area, if you were Belgian, you would understand generations of families through the Belgian lens, and you'd understand the link between the city and the country through the Belgian lens, and you know, for me, that's the tri -state area, so there's my time in the city as like a resident, but more importantly, there's just this, it's the place, it's the culture, you know?

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57:00You said both my parents were born there, I was born there, it sounds like a lyric. I'm just pointing it out because when you said it's like, oh yeah, I want to hear the rest of that song. I've actually been working on one song that was almost on the album. It's called New York Hospital. I think it was partially just because I realized somehow very deep into our friendship, it came about that, oh, me and Bale were born at the same hospital. Which at the time has the most bland name of all time. Maybe you remember it was called New York Hospital. Now I think it's part of the Cornell, whatever, it's one of these Upper East Side Hospitals.

57:35There's something I love, that's the name of the hospital, New York Hospital. And I was like, oh, that's kind of cool that we were born in the same place, you know, the same year. And then, you know, naturally at this phase of life, you think when it's no longer all about you, the way it is when you're young and you think about, oh, I'm in between. I think about the older generations, where they were born and how they grew up, and I think about the younger generations. Can you play me a little bit in New York Hospital on the guitar? Yeah, I can try.

58:09You're right, so on acoustic guitar sound kind of foaky, which maybe we've experimented with different arrangements of it, but the main part. I messed up playing the ponies. I'm back to the grind, and I wanted to say that the unions invented the weekend. So thanks for your lives, and thanks for the days. When the village was in the New York Times, still smoted in the flames, I was born in the New York hospital in the middle of a golden age. If you think you're born and have my son, in the desert, scared at cave, we were both born deep in an endless world in the middle of a golden age. And there's a good riff that comes in.

59:15Yeah, so it's funny. We have some demos that are cool of that. I got to figure out if that belongs on the next album or something in between. Have you ever played the ponies in your life? Yeah, you have really? Of course, I primarily just like that as an old -fashioned phrase, like some guys and dolls playing the ponies, but yeah, I've always had kind of a degenerate friends. You want to go to the track, and I'm like, what do I even do here? And they show me how to do it. So you've been to the track? Yeah, I was at San Anita pretty recently, actually. A buddy of mine, and he has a kid in the same age as mine.

59:53He said, you want to bring him? And I was like, okay. And we went, and it was pretty, I hadn't been in a while, but it was kind of far out. And I was leaving with my little son getting to the car, and the Valais looked at me, and with a smile holding my son's hand said, well, that's good. It started him early. It's like, wow. What was the scene there like? Tell me about the scene at San Anita. It's interesting because there's a restaurant that kind of feels like a country club. So you get a little bit of like a high class thing. Well, first of all, San Anita is a beautiful old building, probably from the teens or the 20s.

1:00:33And so you get all walks of life in there, and there's part of it that feels like you're in port authority. So you're in port authority, and you see people who are kind of like, you start thinking about, what's your deal, man? You look like pushing 80 by yourself, holding like a plastic bag, and you're like, where do you live? You have those kind of things. Like, what's your story? And then you go to this restaurant, and you see people who have a kind of high class thing going on and ordering ice cream sundaes and steak and stuff. So it's one of these classic places where you see, I guess horse racing really brings together different types of people.

1:01:16It's high class and low class at the same time. And does it match your memory of ever going when you were young? Does it like, is that an unchanged thing? Why didn't really go when I was young? I mean, definitely, my parents weren't taking me. Maybe more when I was like a teenager and some friend of mine really want to check this out. So yeah, I've been, I don't have a deep connection to it. I was sure you hadn't gone. So the fact that you've ever gone is really impressive. But, you know, it's funny. So I have gone technically, but to say it's like a big part of my life. No, but it's still. So it's like you're referencing something that you actually have experienced.

1:01:58It's not pure fiction. Yeah. And I've, you know, I've been lucky in life that I've known a lot of different type of people with all sorts of different backgrounds and interests and stuff. And I've always been curious about what other people like. So yeah, I feel like I've had a lot of cool experiences in life just, you know, being taken into somebody else's world, you know? Was anyone in your family ever in a union? In my dad. Amazing. Yeah. I also would have guessed no. No, in fact, with that, I thought about, you know, I'm still working on the song. There's a lot of kind of generational stuff because I'm thinking about my father in the song, but also talking to my son a little bit because I had this feeling where I thought, well, you know, I was born in April in Manhattan, which is a lot of people I think would agree is one of the most beautiful times and places in the world.

1:02:57Depends what part of Manhattan, but we can all agree. Spring, spring, spring, spring, and be your place. Yeah. And whereas my son was born in Augustin LA. So, you know, hopefully the song goes deeper, but I just think, if you think you're born in hell, my son. Like Augustin LA sounds like hell. You know. But yeah, so I was thinking about generations and my dad. So, yeah, even that was like a funny, a little plan. Words to me that the, I said, and they started playing the ponies and back to the grind. And I wanted to say that the unions, and then at the weekend. Because people say the unions, there used to be a bumper sticker.

1:03:40Like, you enjoy the weekend? Thank a labor union. So, there's also an about like, well, in one sense, the unions, then a bumper weekend. Because my dad was in a union. And so, his parents too. They were teachers. My dad, he was in IOTC, which certainly includes everybody who builds sets for in New York. Or I guess in the whole country for TV and Broadway too, I think. Yeah, so yeah, there's a lot of that. I always like stuff where it seems a little bit out there, but then there's some sort of real connection too, you know. If we went through your catalog, and we talked about, we just talked about the first two lyrics of a song that is not finished or released.

1:04:27Right. And there's a great deal of personal depth already in those two lyrics. If we went through the catalog, is that, would you say it's a nature of your writing? Are you very connected to the material in that way? Yeah, I mean, that's fascinating. I think so. One thing's for sure. There's never been a van par weekend lyric. Well, there haven't been many van par weekend lyrics that are purely random. You know, there's definitely a style of music, especially indie music, where it kind of seems like it doesn't mean much, or it's purposefully random. People said that about Bob Dylan, they say about a pavement or something guided by voices, but the reason that all those artists have a deep passionate fan base is because it's not actually random.

1:05:21And even when you don't get it, you feel it or something. But I think there's a lot of van par weekend lyrics that they aren't even that, that this abstract thing that you feel, but it might not make sense, but it's still meaningful. Sometimes it's just literally meaningful. Like, a couple of people that asked me about a line on the new record talks about the sandhogs in the street, the chickens in her bedroom, and, you know, in New York, the people who work under the ground are called sandhogs. They build the tunnels, and they go all the way back to building the Brooklyn Bridge, but now they're working on the water tunnels, the subway tunnels.

1:05:56I was always very interested in my dad had been a some kind of tunnel inspector at some point in life before he started working on movies. And then, chickens in her bedroom, I knew somebody had chickens in her bedroom. That's more common than you think. People have animals in New York apartments for various reasons. But that one actually saw with my own eyes. Do you remember there was a tiger in a apartment in Harlem? Yeah, it was really. The pictures were amazing of the city coming in to try to take a full -grown tiger out of an apartment. How do you decide what dozen doesn't make an uneven album?

1:06:33Usually it's not that hard because it's never whittling down dozens of songs. Although I do want to try that one day. I just don't know if I ever have dozens of songs, but it is, they say with Thriller, we went through 200 songs. But they probably had some of the best songwriters in the world submitting songs and listening. So the idea of whittling down 200 songs to like the 10 to 12 U. I mean, that's in love that concept. But there's usually not that many to begin with that are fully formed songs with lyrics and production ideas and arrangement ideas. And in the case of this album, which almost could have been 11, I think because every version we worked on it felt kind of strummy with an acoustic guitar, we just kind of felt like, you know what, we have enough acoustic strumminus on this album.

1:07:24This doesn't quite feel like it fits. Some of the imagery in the song is very connected to other songs, maybe almost two connected. So, you know, I guess that was a pretty typical, like, does it fit kind of conversation. But you also said you had the beginnings of step long before that album. So it's rather unusual for you to have good pieces that just for whatever reason the time's not right. Exactly. Yeah, or yeah, Hannah Hunt. Like we tried in the Contra era. It just didn't totally make sense. Yeah, and sometimes it's just a gut feeling. Do they change like Hannah Hunt from the Contra era? Would it have been different?

1:08:04Had you recorded it then? Oh, yeah, totally. And that was one of those ones that as we played it as a band, my heart just kind of sank because I was like, I like this song. And then I realized that song wasn't made to sound live per se. And then at some point, I remember one of my little references for how that song could sound. I said, what if the XX made a country song? And that was like a guiding principle. And if the XX did make a country song, it wouldn't be for people in a room playing drums, electric, you know, it would be beat -oriented. What's also the little little of Hannah Hunt? Sure.

1:08:39Is there Hannah Hunt? There's somebody named Hannah Hunt, who she was just someone we all knew in college and very cool person, but the song is not about anything about her per se. This truly was inspired by how good her name was. And even in some ways, the fact that she pronounced it differently helps have that separation where it's almost like inspired, but it is a different name. It's here a little bit.

1:09:38I believe it. To me and Hannah Hunt, so crawling vines, and we've been with those, as we made away from providence to Phoenix. A man of faith said, hidden eyes could see what I was thinking.

1:10:12I just smiled and told him that was on the true of Hannah. And we glided on through wave and lead, and we'd been linking.

1:10:30Our days were long and that's no longer count the seconds. Watching hours, though we live on the U .S. dollar, you and me, we got our own sense of time.

1:10:58And sign a Barbara, Hannah cried and missed those freezing beaches.

1:11:10I walked in to town, to pass on the kind and fall with a fire, and I told them New York Times were meant to be seen.

1:11:28If I can trust you, then dam it, Hannah. There's no future, there's no answer, though we live on the U .S. dollar, you and me, we got our own sense of time.

1:12:12I just smiled and told him that was on the true of providence to Phoenix. I just smiled and told him that was on the true of providence to Phoenix.

1:13:04At what point in the process did you decide to sing the last chorus up? That was when we started working on it, and from the beginning. No, no, no, no, no, no. I threw out my kind of XX country idea, but then Ross, then, was like, it should get big. He said, can you sing it up and octave? This is why it's so great to have different points of use, because I remember saying, no, it's too high, and he was very encouraging, just push it, push it, you can do it. Then I realized, right, so I had my idea for it to be small and austere, but actually that's what turns the song into a journey, is to jump up, because I remember we're being like, I don't know if I can do it, and he said, do it.

1:13:53We did it, that part gets big, then it gets small again. It was obviously a brilliant call on his part, because it's... It's really surprising. It's really surprising. And it's funny too how, probably because I reacted so negatively to trying to play the song live, because of course you would never get that level of minimalist. I don't care who it is. If you get four people in a room, you're not going to get that level of minimalism. So I was so attached to my minimalist idea that even at first, I was like, I don't want it to get big. My whole thing is I don't want it to be big. Now looking back, I can see the 2020 vision, why that was such a great call, because it makes you appreciate the smallness on either side more, and it's an emotionally cathartic moment.

1:14:35And it's exactly the type of thing that sometimes as a songwriter, you might not want to do, because the song is very emotional, but it's understated. And for me to sing that high, let's say, beyond the top of my range, that's letting the understated emotion go away and getting actually emotional. And, you know, there's probably the part of me that wanted to be a bit cooler or closer to the vest, but that's what sells the... It's like that emotion after this kind of quiet road trip story. You know, they feel... What's also interesting about it is it gets loud first in the instrumental section, and while it seems loud, the instrumental section, it's not really that big or loud.

1:15:25It's only big and loud in comparison to what came before it. So it seems bombastic, but it's not... If the song started that way, you wouldn't even think that it's big. It was ordinary. Yes. But then when the vocal comes in high, it's like, oh, this is like, it really has gone somewhere. Right. Yeah, totally. When I first started writing the song, there's somewhere there's a... Must be a recording because I remember still being in college just before vampire we can start.

1:16:00I'm sure when I wrote it, it was like... A garden, a toad, and some plants move. I probably was more like a country song or...

1:16:15And I knew... I didn't find that particularly exciting, especially when I looked back to what seemed cool to me in the early days of vampire weekend, but I knew that I liked the song. I liked the lyrics, so that's why it... It's a sedated multiple attempts.

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1:17:55Does it happen that for a period of time you don't like something or you don't like a style and then years later you come back around to it and realize I really do like this or you changed. It stayed the same, obviously. Right, yeah. Do you come around to things? Oh totally. Sometimes I think I need years to accurately judge something that we work on and also context is everything. I mean, if what we do is make so many decisions based on what we think feels appropriate or cool or whatever, and that is totally a game you play with culture and time and whether you want to be in step with the times or out of step or just in step with yourself.

1:18:42Yeah, it still is all about time and timing. So I revisit old demos all the time and you know, change a lyric, change in arrangement, and suddenly it feels relevant again. But one thing's for sure, I just feel like that whatever this game that we're playing is it's never been as simple as is it good or not. I have some memory of a friend of ours overhearing some conversation in the studio this years ago. Also an artist in his own right, but he was telling me go on about why I thought a certain kind of drum sound felt uncool to me or played out. And I was talking in terms of like a 90s rock drum sound versus like an 80s pop out of something like that.

1:19:29And the guy said something, I think he was trying to be encouraging, but he said something along the lines of like, you're worrying so much about drum sounds and errors and stuff, just like, you know, speak from your heart and like, don't worry about that stuff. If it's good, it's good. And I just remember thinking, I saw where he was coming from, but I just remember thinking, no, that's not true. That's just not the game that we're playing. There's other rules too. And if the day comes, we want to make an unadorned acoustic album, even that will be a choice, you know, right? Like that's... And I'm sure you spend years thinking about it.

1:20:05Right, and there's so many types of unadorned acoustic albums. I want to make it on a four track. I want to make it digital, you know.

1:20:15What would be, is there one song that you think is representative of the new album? On the new album... Let me pull it up. As we get to this album, it becomes more difficult, just because, you know, this is the newest, had very recently put so much thought and doubt, all fits together. It gets harder to zero in on one song. I mean, there's different modes at work in this album. I think maybe a good one is classical, because it's a... I always just call everything fast, punky. You know, that's just the short hand we have in the band. So to me, it's in the punky or vein of Amp are weekend. But it starts with an acoustic guitar doing this.

1:21:05And then the drums come in, and they're big, and they have their own weird swing, but they're kind of reminiscent of hip -hop, but then the thing that really sells it, which was Arielle's call, is this big upright bass. And so for me, when I think of this song, and I mean, Arielle talked about it too, you know, just for, we're not the exact same age, but relatively older, millennial, younger, Gen X, to grew up where, you know, the most important new music to us was punk -slash alternative rock and hip -hop. The idea of making a high -energy song you could call punky that had the weight of an upright bass, like we loved in a tribe called Quest, or some Beastie Boys, or a lot of hip -hop.

1:21:53The idea of fusing that, which is harder than it seems, was kind of like a lifelong mission. And not everybody has to see it that way, because as much as punk and hip -hop have always been in dialogues since the early days, you know, it can be really corny just to do punk vocals over a hip -hop beat. But even for us, growing up in the shadow of all the amazing work and the fusions of what you've done, and that we grew up with, it still is a lifelong ambition to make something that has that chazzy weightiness of hip -hop with the drums and the bass, which, you know, is always all interesting, because it's sometimes even the hardest beat.

1:22:31It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old funk drummers who are playing really light, you know, all that stuff, but to have that energy. So to me, because this album has both this like alternative rock punky side and this like hip -hop side, this is maybe the song where it gets married the most. It doesn't do it.

1:23:30I'm not a fan of the song, I'm not a fan of the song. I'm not a fan of the song, I'm not a fan of the song. It's not as hard as you thought it was, It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs.

1:23:58It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs.

1:24:15It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. It's not as hard as you thought it was, and you realize, oh, right, you're sampling these old songs. A staircase up to nothingness inside your DNA, you're with acid bleak. Sunrise, on true, on clear, and on natural.

1:24:54How the crew, with time, becomes classical. I know that watch, fall, shake, shake, this fire, that's break is clean. Something's gonna change, and when it does, which class could it make?

1:25:55Oh, oh, oh! I'm not a car and I'm not true I've a crew with time Becomes classical I know that one's my sex shape This fun and bounce break is clean Something's gonna change And when it does Which class could I make It's a beautiful song Thanks. That's Bliekson rise, untrue, unkind and unnatural Really beautiful words Oh thanks And there's someone too that I liked about how it turned out because it is It feels It feels New, the combination of elements, it feels like New and yet there's something very traditional about the song writing Not every song needs it but when you have a song that has a true pre -chorus I've always felt more sophisticated And the pre -chorus really does sound like a chorus in this song So when the fast -talking part of the chorus comes I find it surprising like a chorus tops it It's a really good feeling That's what I appreciate That's what I love in the song You know I was just listening to Somehow this came out randomly But I hadn't thought about it in a long time Was this video killed the radio star I mean it's a pretty simplistic way to talk about music But it's kind of like Is every part good And you realize that song has so many parts I heard you on Low Islands back in 52 Oh, oh, oh, and then the chorus video killed the radio star, but by the time it gets to the new melody that you I guess you could call it the bridge You are the radio star Just like how many do you have yeah, it's like over it.

1:28:05It's like every part you have a great new idea and they're all equally good I love when a song can do that Should we listen to Capricorn or so sure Oh Can't turn the tide The word look different Garrows on the side Who best feature Did I care why I know your time to try this and clearly you know Capricorn Did it Finished efect Oh sent Sift into centuries for moments out of your own.

1:29:16Why is it called Capricorn? As I recall, I was thinking about people who were born right at the end of the year. I was like, oh, that's kind of a good metaphor for what a larger thing I was thinking about. That feeling of being a little bit in between the Tony soprano thing of I didn't get in on the ground floor. It was born too late. I was thinking, what if you were born in the final days of the year? This year that you'll always be associated with, you'll be filling in forms for the rest of your life. Yet you didn't really have a taste of it. You were born finished fast, the next one was in years.

1:29:54Then I was like, I don't know enough about astrology to note off the top of my head. I said, well, what would you be if you were born December 30th? I saw Capricorn. I mean, how lucky was I that Capricorn rhymes with born if it had been something else. Worked out. So you had the song first, how far into the process did this song come? This was very early. If I played you the first demo of Capricorn, it wouldn't sound all that different. It would have all the main elements. So I remember I own my working on that early, early in the process. I remember kind of going to him having... There's like a piano motif that existed on its own.

1:30:41That kind of just worked as a post -chorus. I think actually I came in with the chorus maybe. And then we had to work backwards to come up with a verse.

1:30:54So we kind of worked on that. And I remember over two days we had more or less sketched out the whole song, which for us is very fast. It doesn't mean we were done, but he mocked up those drums. And the drums, plus the acoustic, plus the piano, and I was like, oh, this works. And then I remember being at home that night. And I was like, I wonder if this song could have a part of the sound of like my bloody valentine. And then I came back the next day and he said, what if I was like, what if on the second chorus? I went to like my bloody valentine and he's like, okay. And then he busted out the whammy pedal and...

1:31:24And then it gets big. So yeah, that's all I came about. Typically do you bring in a song to work on before all the lyrics are done? Is that a normal thing or not really? Yeah, all the time. I feel like if once the chorus is more or less set, it counts. Yeah. If you have a chorus, you're allowed to then spend four years thinking about just the right third verse. But if you come in with a verse you normally have a chorus, like, you're not really ready to work on it. That's been my experience. I think the final track, I hope, is pretty important. It just definitely feels like new territory, uh, lyrically.

1:32:05It's only five verses, but it's still for us. That's a lot of verses, you know? And that song is interesting because I think there's always been some kind of folk music underpinning to what we do. But this one is... We didn't arrange it exactly like a folk song, but...

1:32:25I think it kind of summarizes the album, a little bit of the world view and the spiritual world view of the album. And then just also in terms of the history of the band, it's just a... It's the closest we've come to just like a folk song because it has this chorus that comes over now. I hope you let it go. I hope you let it go. And I'm using Vince, but I hope you let it go. And then, you know, a bunch of verses. You know, we took it to a different place. We wrote an instrumental bridge. But it's... What's it about? Well, it's funny. With so many of these songs, the... This is how I always feel.

1:33:11It's like at first, it just kind of pops into my head and I think that'll do. It sounds like a song. And then as I work on it, I think about it. So it's... it almost never happens the opposite way where I'm like, I have a strong feeling that I want to put into words and then I do it. No. I have some words. I want to put in a song and then I think about the feeling and then either it resonates with me and I keep it or it doesn't. And I think... Well, you know, we were talking before about the... How, you know, I still feel very connected to modern vampires, but sometimes I look at some of the seriousness or the agita of that record is being the agita of youth.

1:33:53You know, I think this is like the agita being older. And I guess the simplest way to put it is that, you know, your whole life, you have people telling you this incredibly simple thing, which is more or less the serenity prayer of AA, which have never been a part of, but I know people have been a part of it and even just being on the periphery of it, I've found it very deep and inspiring. And, you know, except the things you cannot change. And you have people telling you that your whole life and it's so logical, so rational, makes sense, or even when people say, well, you can't change other people, you can change yourself.

1:34:34And you're like, yeah, right. But I think I should write change some other people. Well, you know, in the meantime, and even, you know, you think about it can be borderline infuriating when you're young, or even well into adulthood, it can be infuriating when somebody tells you, I understand that situation is causing you stress and anxiety and pain, but I encourage you to let it go. That can make you angry. It's like, God, shut the fuck up. You're not in my shoes. And then as you get older, you start to realize some of the people give you that advice, they have been in your shoes. They've been actually in, I don't know what the right metaphor is, bigger shoes, heavier shoes than you have.

1:35:11And you start to realize, right, it's such a misguided judgment to say that optimists or easygoing people are living in the virtue untested category. Because I've come to realize actually some of the chillest people I know are the most optimistic, or another way to say that the people who have the best relationship with life itself, people who can really love life or, you know, in other phrase, Amor Fati love their fate. Sometimes those are people who have actually been through more than many people could even imagine, you know, the difficult situation, suffering, things like that. I guess if I had to summarize that song, it's about these hard -won feeling of getting older and realizing that the answer that's presented to you often in life that seems so annoying, borderline infuriating, let it go.

1:36:03And you're like, but what about this situation? Let it go. What about that situation? Let it go. That that's not a cloying childish sentiment, or the sentiment of a delusional optimist that there's actually deep wisdom in it. Whether or not I fully embraced or embodied in it, it in my life, it's something that at least I now understand as an ideal to aspire to. And that's not even something I understood when I was younger. Are the verses examples? Yeah, I'm kind of just trying to hit it from so many different sides. And the song opens, that goes like, the bullets go the matter, the US on it won the world.

1:36:47The meaning died in metaphor. I hope you let it go. And when I first wrote it, it was the US Army lost the war. And this is one of these little things I fixed it on for a while. And I was like, I didn't know I realized, I don't want it to be so simplistic that it's like, oh, you lost? Just let it go. And again, look, the US Army, some people, some people root for it, some people don't. You could look at it different ways. But I like the idea of having both the the Matador getting gourd by the bull. Like that's objectively an L for the Matador, but also like the idea of an army winning. That's something you have to let go of too.

1:37:28Whether you're the victim or the winner, you know, all of it has to be because essentially it, you know, what is it's the the ephemeral nature of all phenomena. So yeah, that's essentially what the song is. And I had to I really had to make put thought into it and kick the tires on it over the years to make sure I just don't want it to be a system, some simplistic thing where everything that's listed is obviously bad. And I really liked that some of my favorite verses are ones that could be good or bad depending who you are. Like there's one there's one part that's a. The embassies abandon now the flag the flu is on the ground the painting bun the statue drowned.

1:38:11I hope you let it go. And I just think about the idea of an overrun embassy, you know, it's something we see over and over again will continue to see forever. It can be the end of a moment, the revolution, it can be something somewhat peaceful. It can be something incredibly violent. It can be a huge win for a person, a group of people can be huge loss for another group of people.

1:38:42Do you ever have insights into old songs of yours, lyrically, over time? Yeah, definitely. When I look back to modern vampires in particular and I think about a song like Yahe, I think when I wrote it, it probably came from the point of view, which is kind of just the cultural milieu that I lived in, which is like, obviously God is not real. Like not even a question, you know, and depending where you grew up or how you were raised or what kind of faith you have, that could be a legitimate question. But I think I, you know, he was just accepted. It was just accepted. Like even when I picture like deep stone conversations I may have had with friends, there was never one where somebody said, hey, you think God is real?

1:39:32It just like again, it never came up. It never came up because that wasn't part of it. So I think when I think about that song at a time, which is kind of addressing the, just the concept of God, I think it's coming from a place like, obviously, I'm talking to myself here because how could it be that a being through the, what has that song go? So, what quiz is it?

1:40:37So, that idea of kind of like, yeah, coming from this place, it doesn't make any sense that you would say, I am that I am, which is the tetragramatonic, right? The YHWH, so I think from that point of view when I think about it at the time, and I probably wondered, yeah, what was the point of that song? Did I just think it was kind of like cool to delve into something more serious? And so at the time, I thought of it, it doesn't make any sense. Nobody could live that way. Just, I am that I am, it doesn't make sense. But now I look back on it, and I think, well, if it didn't make sense, why did I care?

1:41:15You know what I mean? There's a lot of things that don't make that much sense, and you just can let it go. But there was clearly something that was kind of drawing me in about it. And I look back on it now, and I think a human being, saying, having, trying to have a conversation with something, with the infinite, and saying, how can it be that with all these change and these things, you know, that you're just out there saying, I am that I am, how can you live that way? And now I realize, well, the person asking that question is not like the sophisticated lawyer who is putting God in its place, that person is confused and angry, and looking for something deeper.

1:41:57So when I think about that song now, I just see it differently. Do you think it spoke to you because I make it so you were evolving your position, and you were still on the old side of the position, and it's almost like you were arguing with some part of yourself. And you're still arguing for the old position, but now, you know, over time you look back and you see, I've actually moved to the other side of this. Right, yeah, that makes sense because I guess if a song is about an argument, then at different times in your life, you could fall on either side of it. And maybe the reason it was meaningful to you is because the part of you that was going to be let go of, wanted a state its position, like it was stating its case.

1:42:55Yeah. Yeah, no, it's funny because I feel like that happens so often where, yeah, especially when you're going through some sort of internal change, I think all human beings are like that. Sometimes you're having an argument or you're explaining your position on something, and even as you're saying it, you're saying it because you know it's wrong or because you're ready to let it go, or you're making the argument one more time for for old time sake. And it's funny. I think about talking about that this in particular makes me think about I felt very connected over the last however many years to this old English him abide with me.

1:43:33Do you know it kind of came on my radar because the loniest monk did a cover of it in the sixties. So again, I wasn't out there looking for religious music or hymns. I, you know, like all urban sophisticated. I listened to cool sixties jazz sometimes. So I heard this like, oh, the loniest monk doing abide with me. And I was like, what is this? It's a very pretty melody. And then I went and listened to the actual lyrics of the, I guess it's a 19th century him. I won't be able to play it on guitar because I've never really sung it. But there's the line that's always dug out to me is change and decay in all I see.

1:44:08Now who changes not abide with me. And it's interesting because rather than the idea of the world surrounded by bad things change into K rather than saying, well, therefore I feel totally disconnected from this world. And if there is a creator or a force. And organizing principle behind all this, then I don't like it. Rather than saying, and I just proved how like absurd existence is because I'm surrounded by change into K. This is the opposite. It's saying because the nature of physical reality is change into K, which is true. Now who changes not the infinite the eternal rather than judging you.

1:44:52I'm asking for help abide with me. And you know, it's in a way I look at it now. Well, that's like some of the same concept. It's just a different attitude to bring to it. Yeah, the one I listened to a lot is Thelonius Monk, which is instrumental, but just gives you a sense of the pretty melody.

1:45:55With me, so then below is the King's College Cambridge.

1:46:59Yeah, every verse is a different kind of address. Like the first one is the help of the helpless abide with me and then change into K and all that I see. You know, any any piece of art song, whatever, you know, and it's that people say this all the time that everybody always thought the world was ending. That's like something people say. And there's something nice about imagining because there's so much energy goes into making us feel like we're living through a unique time of change into K. And then to imagine whenever this was written well before our well before our parents or grandparents era that somebody was, you know, sitting down and saying change into K and all that I see that who changes not abide with me.

1:47:48Okay, there is some comfort in that that that change into K is the nature of reality and that fight nature of the material world. Yeah, right. Yes, exactly. And to know that that's something that as long as there's been humans, people have been wrestling with and that there's nothing new that we're dealing with. And frankly, there's no new insight either. People have clocked exactly what you just said about the nature of the material world and examined it and thought about it and transcended it without the aid of whatever technology or the internet and stuff. And there's something very powerful and feeling connected to that relationship between the dialogue between the temporal and the eternal between the human and what some people might call the divine.

1:48:41So yeah, I think it's the last few years that this him has just been something that I felt like I wanted to listen to a lot and there are a lot of lyrics that powerful lyrics in it. Tell me about the experience of singing live. What is happening in your head when you're singing live? Are you thinking about the lyrics? Are you thinking about singing? Are you looking at what's happening around you? Where's your mind on stage in the song? The honest answer is that it's all over the place and that there are times. The difference as I've gotten older is I see the importance of bringing it back. Sometimes when I was younger, she'd just get through the show, you know, whatever it takes, get through the show, get through the tour.

1:49:33Whereas now I think just like I try to remember about any activity. No, I'm here. Let me not just get through it. Let me exist in it. And this is a particularly a concert, a particularly good one too. That's worth doing when you're waiting in line at the grocery store. It's especially worth doing when you're singing songs that are connected to your life and your history and your relationships and stuff. So yeah, my mind wanders. I try to bring it back. Of course there's little anxieties about it. Do I remember how to play the guitar riff that's coming up and things like that? But of course the best experiences are when I'm engaging in the song.

1:50:15And if I can have that moment where I feel like I'm performing it well and I feel connected to the moment and the feeling of all these people coming together on stage and in the audience. And I feel like my mind is going through the meaning of the words. Whether or not I wrote it, like we were covering Joker Man, the Dylan song quite a bit. And you know, that's a lot of verses, the mysterious song. And eventually I came to just love being on stage and just performing that song and kind of thinking about it at the same time. Tell me about the difference between performing a song you wrote versus doing a cover.

1:50:53With enough time, there's no difference. That's what's interesting. Like do you feel more freedom with a cover or now? Not necessarily. You know, but and and because we've always taken these like long periods of time away from touring, you know, and between albums. Sometimes when we get back in the rehearsal room and looking at these songs, I am looking at them with fresh eyes. And sometimes not that differently than as if it's a cover. That's not to say that I know that could make a sound like, oh, I feel disconnected from just covering my own material. No, it's just like that that same level of.

1:51:31You're not the same person who wrote those songs. Right. We evolve, we change our lives, change. Yeah. Everything changes. Yeah, it just means something new to me. So I think in some ways, that's a good thing. Like if you're re -engaging with an old song as if you didn't write it in some way, maybe gives it more life. Yeah, totally. Because sometimes it makes me more, yeah, more curious about the song. Where I think, what did I mean by that? Because in a good way, sometimes with songwriting, you're on autopilot, you know, again, the source. Where do these ideas come from? We can pretend they come from us.

1:52:13If most creative people are honest, you're like, well, what part of you did it come from? You know, the good ones, they just come. So, you know, and that's why even when I do all these funny and to be talking in this period where I've just done a big wave of press and interviews. And there are times where, you know, I do my best to contextualize things and talk about what I was thinking, what the band was thinking without ever getting too personal or like, you know, playing myself by sharing things I don't want to share or talking about special people in my life and what they've been through. You know, like all this stuff that I find distasteful.

1:52:51But so, you know, you do your best. But every once in a while, I do kind of feel like, I wish I could say a lot of people. Well, you know, I'll get back to you in 10 years because only with time, well, I have some sense of it. And, you know, I can, when you sit down and say, yeah, what was going through your head when you were writing the song, almost always the answer is kind of nothing. The ideas come from some other place. And then you have some fun arranging them and talking about them. But that comes after. The inspired moment is not intellectual. Right. Then the intellectual work happens after is like, what does it mean?

1:53:32Like, I know I like the way this sounds. Yes. I know this works in the song. What's it about? Right. And I always like the metaphor of your discography is like a bit of a story. And, you know, sometimes chapter three makes more sense when you get to chapter five. And you say, right, now I see how that, that was a bridge or that was a detour or that was a set up.