Golden Harper

24:39And he's just like, yeah, it's pretty rough. So you started by shaving the shoes and just modifying them so that they would perform better. Yeah, because I saw in video and by looking at the specs of the shoes and weighing them, that every shoe in our store was heel heavy and heel high. None of these specs were published back then. You know, now we have a term for it dropped. That was a term I invented the term zero drop again, you know, one of my, my terms that everyone uses now. But at the time, it was like, wow, shoes are all heavy in the heel and they're all thick in the heel. And we come to find out basically every shoe is twice as thick in the heels as it is in the forefoot.

25:16That's just how they're built. If it's a 12 millimeter forefoot, it's a 24 millimeter heel. If it's 10 millimeter forefoot, it's a 20 millimeter heel. That's just how the cushioning, you know, was built in the shoe. And what we saw is as people's foot swings out in front of their body, that causes the heel to drop. And in biomechanics, what we call dorsiflexing. So their toes pop up, their heel drops down. And then because the heels thicker, the foot catches the ground earlier. So people literally landing inches more out in front of their body than they were without a shoe on. So we're talking, you know, a fundamental movement that humans have done throughout all the eons.

25:51It's now been disrupted not by millimeters, not by centimeters, but by inches. And we wonder why running, which is a non -contact sport, has a 73 % injury rate. You know, plus, you know, depending on the study, 60 to 90%. You're, it's terrible for a sport with no contact. And so did just what you said is I got looking at shoes and I was like, well, what if, you know, what if we took a traditional amount of cushioning that still had enough protection to simulate running barefoot on a natural surface while you're on concrete or grass or in my case trail running on rocky ground. We have a moderate amount of protection there.

26:30And what if we get the shoe to weight balance front to back, what will happen? And so that's when I took first pair of shoes into my toaster oven, you know, little mini oven. And I talked to my dad and told him what I was doing. He's like, yeah, that makes sense. Just two downstairs where mom can't smell it, you know. And I put this pair of shoes in the mini oven. And, you know, my dad was like, he's doing this stuff all the time, always modifying shoes, throwing up. He was working for Nike when I was born, sockin' him most of my childhood. Modifying shoes was just something that happened to our house.

27:00And he's like, yeah, 275 weight till the glue bubbles. And I'm like, okay, cool. So, 275, I weighed a little bit long, melt the laces, melt all the TPU on the upper. I mean, it's as frank and stine as they come, right? You know, it just looks terrible. But I take this shoe out and I rip the outsole off the rubber, you know, just pull the rubber off the shoe, pull the foam out. I put some slabs of weight balance, flat foam in, a Spenco foam, and then glue the rubber back on. And I go for run. And for the first time in my life, I'm running down the road, but I feel like I'm running barefoot on the grass.

27:36Or barefoot on the beach. You know, just that freedom. If you ever run barefoot on the beach or barefoot on the grass, you know this, like, freedom that comes with it. It's just, it's kind of a glorious, fun thing. And I remember just thinking like, this is amazing, you know. And let's get back and test it. So, let's go video it in slow motion. Slow motion video had just become available to like, not rich people. And sure enough, the video was pretty, pretty clear that it was, it was doing its job. You know, we get that elevated, heavy heel out of the equation. And good things start to happen.

28:08How many of those modified pair of shoes did you make? So, just a couple that way. And then I took a fleet to a guy that ran rivers on the Grand Canyon with my dad that owned a shoe collar shop nearby. Robert Glazier, a village shoemaker. And I explained to him what I wanted to do. And he's looking at me and he's like, look, you know, he's like a third generation shoe maker, certified pedor fist. And he's like, I usually add things to shoes, not take things away. And he's like, why would you want to do this? And I explained the biomechanics of it and how it's going to straight fix your posture and everything else.

28:43And changes the way you walk, changes the way you run back to a more natural way. And he starts shaking his head and giving me this look. And I was like, oh man. And he's like, well, that sure makes a lot of sense. And so he ends up modem the shoes for me. And I had brought in these original, like 1984 Sockini Jazz originals that have two layers of mitsule. You know, they have one slab along the bottom and there's a second slab that runs from the heel to the arch and then drops down to the forefoot. And I just simply said, hey, can you take the second slab out here? So they're just level front to back.

29:16And then we'll see if we can get them to weight balance front to back. And he was like, yeah, I think we can pull that off. And so we did about two dozen pair then. And we test them on our staff at the store. And, you know, 19 out of 20 loved it. So it was like, well, 95%. That's pretty good rate. Like we don't see that very often. And then somehow a customer ended up in a pair. It might have been me. But, you know, this guy comes in knee problems forever. He just had been through the ringer tried everything and he's like, what are you wearing? Because I'm wearing Frankenstein shoes, you know, and I was like, well, we try to get the toes to spread out.

29:55You know, we skip the laces in the front half of the shoe. You know, I'm wearing something that helps me simulate being barefoot on natural surfaces. And, you know, it seems to improve my running technique as well. And he's like, well, I've tried everything else. Let me try it. And I was like, okay, fine. So he puts mom and goes for a run. He's gone a while. And I have this like to jacked my shoes kind of moment. Because this occasionally happens at the shoe store. And it's a bad idea when you're dealing with us. We were all pretty fast people that worked at this shop. But he's gone a long time.

30:25Like, do jack my shoes. And he eventually comes back in and he's like, I'll take him. And I'm just like, man, they're not for sale. These are Frankenstein shoes. And at the time we had even called him zero drop shoes. We were calling him modified, you know, whatever. And jazzy zeros, modified jazzy zeros. And he's like, well, I need a pair. Can you make me one? So I make this guy a pair and then swear him to secrecy. Because we don't want to get sued by the shoe companies. You know, it's like we're taking their shoe and modifying it. And now we're past this statute of limitations so we can talk about it.

30:55But it's just like, don't tell anybody. Do you know what happens when you tell people not to tell people things? Word spreads. Yeah, exactly. So we didn't think about this at the time. But next thing I know, it's like a few weeks later. And this guy comes in and he's like, who sold Joe the hacked up shoes? And I'm like over here on the the fits to a lake. Yeah, that was me. Sorry, he just looks at me and he's like, sell me a pair of two. I've known that guy forever and his knees have always hurt. Now they're feeling good. So I want some. And next thing you know, it's like taking off what like wildfire.

31:25We saw a thousand pair a year. Just about a thousand pair in a year of these modified shoes where people are literally taking a brand new pair of shoes. They're paying us full price. Then they're paying another 20 to 50 bucks to have the cobbler. Take them apart. Yeah, take them apart. Level them out. Wait, balance them. And at the same time, we're selling them to people another size bigger. And we're skipping the laces in the front half to attempt somehow to get their toes to get in the game a little bit more. So this is the journey and back to your question. When did you know that you had to start a shoe company?

31:58So at this point initially there was no start a shoe company. And we had great contacts with shoe companies. And we had all this research now. We had all this data because we were actually paying people 10 bucks to bring back a survey after six weeks and tell us what happened. Did it get better? Did it get worse? What hurts more? What hurts less? You know, what are you using more? What are you using less? Muscular? You know, where are you getting more sore, etc? I mean, you name it. 25 questions. And you were doing this not for commercial reasons, but because you wanted to know what worked. Yeah, yeah, no, just care.

32:29Like sick of selling people to craft. Yeah, I totally cared. That was it. Yeah, you weren't doing market research for the market. You were doing market research to understand what actually works. Yeah, well, in keeping in mind, this is a more time consuming process. So we're actually, you know, net. We're probably losing money on the whole thing because we're spending more time trying to fit people. It's complicating everything. But we're all super stoked about it because we can tell it's making a difference. And we're fixing people. And the results we're getting are off the charts compared to anything we've ever seen.

33:00And we're seeing like 90 plus percent success rates with your typical running injuries. So, and these surveys came back really five areas that were just, you know, incredibly successful. Planner fasciosis, what we used to call plantar fasciitis, typical heel pain that people get. Shinsblents, runners knee, IT band, and lower back issues. And two of those issues are not running things. You know, plantar fasciosis and lower back issues are not, you know, those are everybody deals with that kind of stuff. And we've got people going in and modifying every pair of shoes they own after a little bit.

33:34Wow. And they're taking their whole closet in and saying, expand my toe box, you know, get rid of the heel elevation, weight balance the shoe. And so we've got the data now. And so we start pitching it to our contacts in the shoe industry. And basically getting laughed off the street, you know, and ridiculed and, you know, just lots of nose across the board. And I was like, okay, so let me get this straight. We know people are getting, they're feeling better and they're less injured. You know, and you don't care. You know, I think now I look at it a little bit more compassionately because I understand like stocks and like shareholders and stuff.

34:14But the answer I got across board is like, yeah, we just can't go there, you know. And a lot of it honestly was, we have our dedicated fan base who likes the shoes we make now. And we don't care that you're making something better. We got our people. And if you understand innovation theory, you know, this is how it works with every innovation in every class out there. Basically something new and better comes along. And it eventually wipes what was the top dog off the face of the planet because they won't change for that. But at the time, like I remember just being so distraught and so frustrated that we were doing something that was really helping people.

34:50It was incredibly effective. And all these shoe companies that I grew up, you know, darn near worshipping. Didn't give a crap. And that was really hard for me at the time. And so it was during this time, you know, this kind of year long, like acceptance, very slow acceptance that like, oh, I might have to do this. But the problem with doing it is, up to that point, we'd have the same seven running shoe companies since the beginning and running shoe time basically. The quickest way to go homeless was start a shoe company, you know, you start running shoe company. You don't make it. You spend millions, you go homeless like that.

35:28That was the pattern, right? And what happened is it was on my birthday. My cousin Jeremy comes over to my house and and I say to him, like, you know, kind of tell him what I'm doing. And he's like, well, I haven't run in like five years because my knee hurt, like, prove it. I'm like, okay. So we go for a run and I give him the hacked up modified zero drop shoes and he's blown away. And we get to a turnaround point and I'm like, okay, put regular shoes back on and we run back and now his knee's killing him. And he's like, we have to do this. We're going to make these things. And I'm like, yeah, quickest way to go homeless, you know, he's like, I'll do everything.

36:04You know, you just design cool shoes and do the biomechanics and the product and I'll do everything. You know, I'll find the people. I'll find the contacts, manufacturing, all that. And I'm like, okay, whatever, you know, is that what happened? I don't even know how you start something like this. Neither did I. Yeah. So, I mean, so basically what happened is initially he has me make him a pair, but he he comes back and he's like, can you give me a real pair? And I'm like, what do you mean a real pair? He's like, well, you know, not made by you. I'm like, well, they don't exist. And he's like, you mean to tell me there's no running shoes on the market that are shaped like feet.

36:38And keep your foot in barefoot position. Don't have this elevated heel in them. And I was like, no, and he's like, that's preposterous. Like, that's absolutely absurd. I don't believe you, you know, and I was like, what would I know? I just manage the shoe store, you know, and I'm like, go do the research, man. And so my cousin Jeremy, how that he does the research, he comes back and he's like, you're right. They don't exist. It's crazy. And I was like, yeah, it is crazy. And so long story short, he finds these guys that find these guys that then find us. And we're talking X Nike and Adidas development executives and the head of the kitchen at the Nike at Nike their advanced concepts team.

37:14Head of development adidas, the first guy to ever do CAD computer animated design for shoes. These guys had this rapid prototyping group and they were like, hey, we thought about doing what you're doing. But we don't really have a marketing story. And you do, you know, with your running background and all this stuff. So let's get together. Sweet meat with these guys, you know, next thing we're now, we're a million dollars in debt and you know, her end today and it is what it is.

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39:10Tell me about the story of the growth of the company. Yes, so Ultra is probably worth, I don't know, between 500 million and a billion dollars today started with nothing essentially. How many years old is it now when did you start? I started hacking shoes in 2008. We got the first shoes on the market in 2011. So we're looking at almost 13 years now. And we did like 1 .3 million year one. When you started, did you just have one model? Yes, we started with this model called the Instincts. It was just a road running shoe, kind of crossover shoe, moderate cushion. Again, just simulate running barefoot on natural terrain.

39:49I think you have a pair of escalantes now. And the escalante in the line now is probably the closest thing to what the Instinct was back then. The Instinct was probably a little bit more, a little more shoe, I would say, just a little bit, but very, very similar. And then we built the Loan Peak, which has been the number one trail shoe in America repeatedly. And is a household name kind of shoe that still exists today. That came out in November, so about six, seven, eight months after the Instincts. And we also built a shoe called the Adam and the Eve, the Men's and Women's version. These were barefoot style shoes.

40:22Similar to five fingers just without the toe pockets. And that was kind of the initial line up that first year. When you guys started, no one was doing either zero drop or natural wide toe box running shoes. Not with any cushion. Yeah. And really it was just five fingers. So you had the five toe shoes. About the same time we launched, some of the minimal issues came on those were non cushioned barefoot style shoes. Most did not have an appropriate toe box where I'd call foot shaped toe box, but some kind of did. After that, you know, originally that first year we're out there pitching a running shoe stores and everybody's like, well, what's with the barefoot style shoes with cushioning?

41:03Or what's with the running shoes without the heel and with the big clown shaped toe box? You know, we just we were creating category because it simply didn't exist at all. And I'm a big believer in doing this is like, you want to create something that people don't even know they need. Yeah. You know, you want to create a solution that is so good that people like, wow, I never thought about that before. So we've always been very anti trend. I always had this philosophy of, you know, let's create the trend basically. And now, you know, I'm not at alter anymore. It's a publicly traded company. And you know, that philosophy may or may not, you know, exist into the future being a publicly trade company, probably not.

41:42But that was always kind of the mindset from the get go. Yeah, I wanted to talk to you because when I got the shoes, I never felt comfortable shoes before in my life. And it's just a radical experience to feel something that feels like it belongs on your foot as opposed to all the shoes that don't. Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that. My goal was always like, they should disappear. Yeah. When did the book want to run come out during your story? So born to run came out just as I was like, you guys in Hawaii when born to run hit. So born to run had been a thing for a couple of years before I started hacking up shoes.

42:17And we had been selling the five fingers at our store for a couple of years. And we knew they were a great tool. We also just knew the average person couldn't handle them. And they weren't practical for hard flat man made surfaces and they weren't practical for technical trail. And so that was kind of the frame, but born to run definitely built a foundation and helped bring an awareness there. And you know, I still, you know, talked to Christmas to go to this day. We get along so I love born to run interesting. I never, I don't think I ever read a book. I certainly never read a book about running before, but I don't think I read any book about any sport before just because I'm not interested in a friend of mine said, you got to read this book.

42:55I read the book. It made me cry. It was beautiful. Yeah. Amazing book. Amazing book. Yeah. And I think I wanted to create that experience that people had reading born to run in shoe form. You know, and for me, altar was like so much more than shoes. You know, our first investor and my mentor Joe Morton, he always said to me like, you know, the shoes are great, but the education is like, it's like another component of this that's so big, you know, actually teaching people how to move properly and teaching people to strengthen their feet. Like, you know, you're providing more than a shoe to people.

43:34You're providing people an experience. And that was really for me the goal of doing it. And that's really what I'm doing with PR gear now is I'm doing the other stuff that really allows me to focus on that other stuff because there are. Good teaching. Yeah, there are shoes out there, but there's, there's some accessories and things like that. And I think that's why people need and education that people need to make this easier. You know, people's feet are deformed. We I'm a huge proponent of correct toes that we sell. And correct toes are way for people to get their deformed feet back to looking like natural happy healthy human feet.

44:04For those like yoga toes. Kind of except you wear them inside foot shape shoes. So you can actually wear them while you're active. And, you know, I tell people they're an arch support. They're an ankle brace and they are a pronation optimizer. And until you put them on, you just don't understand it. But at my family shoe store, we have people do a balance test without them on. And most people's feet again, their big toe is bent in their toes touch, which natural human feet your toes really shouldn't be touching. And then we put them in a pair of correct toes and how to do a balance test. So the toes want to look almost like fingers.

44:40Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like your toes should be spaced, you know, they should be spread apart. And certainly if they're not, they should be able to do so. You know, the biggest thing we see with people is they age is their feet are not stable and they fall. And falls kill lots of elderly people. And there's actually tons of studies supporting this. We get people out of big fat cushy shoes that are stabilizing and deforming their feet. And we get them into barefoot style, you know, footwear and we get their toes to spread out and they stop falling over. And I was referencing the balance test we do at the shop because, you know, we'll have people and it can be somebody who's 70 years old that can't balance on one foot.

45:19We put a pair of correct toes on them instantly. Their balance improves dramatically. And people literally look at me and they're like, okay, what voodoo magic did you just do on me? Yeah. You know, that's just one example. The other thing we do, we do these bridge souls and they have a met pad in them. And a lot of people even know what a met pad is. But a met pad sits as a cushion back behind your meditarital heads at your forefoot. And most shoes are concave left to right. So your shoe is higher on the right side and the left side than it is in the middle. And as your shoe wears out, it gets even more so.

45:52And so what happens is your foot ends up in this position where your middle met heads or the middle part of your forefoot is down. Like sway back. Yep, exactly. And so what happens with a met pad is you put a met pad in a shoe and it actually fills that gap and it puts your forefoot back into natural position. And bridge souls are named this way because they're a bridge from traditional footwear to more natural footwear. So a lot of people will kind of have a tough time with that transition. You know, some people it's really easy for other people is just like they don't have the foot strength.

46:21And if they reduce their cushion too much, which most people do, they have issue. And so these bridge souls are a bridge from traditional footwear to natural footwear. And they just make that transition nice and seamless for people. And then we give them the education. What are the best foot exercises? So the biggest, if you have to really distill it down, I would say the single best thing people could and should be doing the easiest one is just go jog, bear foot on the grass or sand. Single best foot exercise you can do. If you can't do that and that's not easy, you probably should do this anyway is what's called a single leg heel float.

46:56And it's simply balancing on one foot. And if you can comfortably balance on one foot, then you pull your heels slightly off the ground. We're talking quarter to a half inch max. And you sit there and balance. And the nice thing with this exercise, you may or may not have picked this up for me. I'm very moderate, you know, kind of approach guy. I hate kind of the extremes because I just people get excited about that stuff, but it's not practical. I'm super practical. And the nice thing with single leg heel floats, you can do it anywhere. You can do a single leg heel float, waiting in line to pay for your groceries.

47:25You know, just balance on one foot, pull that heel slightly off off the ground. Once you get decently good at it, no one has to know what's happening. And so that single leg balancing is a huge footstring exercise. Obviously, you're going to be more effective, done barefoot, and even more effective, done barefoot with correct toes in. That's the key one. And then I just like to use a little, like a elastic band of some sort and walk with an elastic band around the big toes. So it's pulling the big toes away from your feet and towards each other. Anything to help those feet, you know, re -approximate basically because for decades, most of us have been in shoes that bend the big toes away from each other.

48:05And the more your big toe has bent away from the other big toe, the more problems you tend to have, the lesser arch works, etc. So zero drop means the heel is level with the front of the foot, correct? Yes. So the whole idea was like a typical shoe would drop from the heel down to the forefoot. I understood. And so the, I should tell you the story of how this came about. So I'm at the shoemaker when I was first doing this. And we would actually measure the thickness of the midsole that was left. And I would talk about how it, you know, was dropping from the heel to the forefoot. And Robert Glazer, the shoemaker, he'd have these millimeter rulers and he'd sit here and he'd measure, you know, how thick it was here and how thick it was here.

48:50He'd be like, okay, it's still dropping two millimeters from the heel to the forefoot. I'm like, okay, good, send two more millimeters out. We'd send two more millimeters out and we're calling them hacked up modified shoes, right? And then he sends two out and we remeasured and he's like, okay, it's dropping zero millimeters. I'm like, Robert, you're a genius. We don't have to call him hacked up modified shoes anymore. We'll call them zero drop shoes. It sounds cool, you know. And it's what they are. It's great. Yeah. And the, I think the great irony of it is the term like caught on long before altered it.

49:21Like I said, we sold $1 .3 million worth of altars the first year. Well, that's nothing compared to the term zero drop went into usage among the born to run community. Like instantly, like it was just like everybody was using it. And it was really a term to describe the cushioning of the shoe. The cushioning was no longer dropping from the heel of the forefoot, right? Then all these like minimalist barefoot style shoes came out with no cushioning. And they started calling themselves zero drop shoes. And I just had to get a chuckle because it actually kind of created an uphill battle for Altra at run specialty.

49:52Because people started associating zero drop with no cushion. And it was really a term to actually describe the cushioning of the shoe originally. Is there a benefit in being as close to the ground as possible in your flat position? It's very situational. And I would say it relates to impact and it relates to activity. So for example, I am sitting here talking to you barefoot right now. There's no reason for me to have a shoe on. There's no benefit from having a shoe on. So I want to remove anything possible. Also, you know, if you're familiar with grounding, there's there's incredible benefits, which is letting your body ground with the earth.

50:28And a lot of people think that's hucky stuff. But just letting your foot connect with the earth. There are studies that show there's a much bigger electron transfer happening there. So you get these these ions that are transferring it's much better. And so a lot of health benefits with grounding. And you know, I would say for casual usage, yeah, you want to have as little to no cushion as possible. You know, if you're not challenging your feet, if you're not doing something that's difficult for your feet, I don't see any reason. And you're going to be the closer you are to the ground, the more stable you're going to be.

50:59Period. Sporced cars are low and wide for a reason. You know, I always tell people you want to use the least amount of cushioning that's necessary for what you're doing and trying to accomplish. So, you know, for me, I go for a one mile run around my neighborhood. I don't really need a shoe on for that. Okay. I go for a five mile trail run across rocky terrain with mud. I probably want lugs for grip and I probably want some rock protection in the form of cushioning or rock plate to blunt the rocks and make it easier for me to do that safely and quickly. Now, I go around a hundred mile race. It's really hard to prepare your feet to go a hundred miles, at least in the modern world.

51:37And so, having a big fat, thick, cushy shoe can actually be helpful at the hundred mile distance for a lot of people. There are people that take years and train their feet and get their feet really strong and can do a hundred mile race in no cushioning, but they're one in a billion. How often have you done a hundred mile race over the course of your life? I stop at 50. 50 is your number. Once I get a little bit older and I lose my fast twitch, I'll probably move up and do hundreds, but I like to run still. And the reality is, even the elites are not really running at the outer mile distance. They're running the downhills, they're running some of the flats, almost everybody's power hiking the up hills.

52:18And speed is not as much as it's all relative, I guess. But for me, I can run quickly at the end of a 50 mile race. Like I've run a 545 mile at the end of a 50 mile race. Wow. I've run, you know, a 36 minute 10k at the end of a 50 mile race. Wow. Nobody's doing that in a hundred mile.

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54:01Tell me what it's like to do a 50 mile race. What's the mindset? I always tell people, if you want a trail run, you should approach it like hiking. The mindset is hiking. I'm going hiking, I'm just doing it faster. And for most people, it means you're going to hike the uphill. You're going to jog the flat, and you're going to run the down. And also, it's an eating contest. And if you've read Born to Run, you hear him talk about this, but it's almost as much more about who has the awesome stomach as it is about who has the awesome lakes, because you have to fuel. You can get through a marathon without fueling extensively.

54:38But you go much beyond that, and you're dead person, walking, if you can't fuel properly. And so for me, the mindset is like, I'm going to go do this somewhere incredibly beautiful, because I want to experience this beauty. I'd love to do it fast. I'm going to eat stuff that I like, and I'm going to have a great time with it. And the mindset is like, for me, survive for 37 miles, and then let's get down to business for the last half marathon. For me, that's an hour and a half, and it's like, it's go time now. What do you do for food? So I actually train my stomach. When I first started doing this, I would drink orange juice right before going really acidic.

55:12And then I'd stop at 7, 11 along the way and get mini tacos and pizza and burgers and anything else, just horrible foods. You know, I wouldn't normally eat in normal life, really. But I did it to train my stomach, because I know like the stomach is the probably the single greatest issue for most people running ultra distance. You get nauseous or what is it? You get nauseous. You have a hard time holding food down. You have a hard time getting enough in. And so, you know, I've always been of the mindset, like, for example, my first marathon, the mindset was like, well, when I went to run my first marathon, I had already done things harder than the actual marathon.

55:48So the race didn't actually seem that hard. And that was the mindset I really took into to ultra's as well was like, okay, let's, you know, this eating situation. Let's make it harder than it's going to be on race day so that race day isn't so tough. Basically, and training your stomach is a real thing. You know, it's a huge thing. I never heard of that before. I never heard of training your stomach in that way. Yeah, and it's such a big one. And people don't talk about it enough. But, you know, the reality is you're burning two to 400 calories an hour or more. And you've got to replace at least a couple hundred of that to have any chance of performing, you know, optimally.

56:26So learn to eat whatever, you know, and ultra eight stations are beautiful things. You know, you just go in and it's like, there's something for everybody. For me, I'm usually grabbing, you know, some soda, a handful of peanut M &Ms beef jerky bacon, you know, pancakes, grilled cheese sandwich, quesadillas, you name it, just grab it, put it in your pockets, roll and then just eat while you're going kind of things. So it's just a mobile food party, you know, at the end of the day. What's the first pushback you get from your body that's like something in me doesn't like doing this? Sometimes it's your stomach, you know, sometimes it's like, I don't want to eat that.

57:04I don't feel like drinking more. And you know, I have to do this. Like, if I do not get in this amount of calories, I will not keep going at the same rate. Or if I do not drink, I will dehydrate and cause a problem. That's really an issue. Dehydration is massively overrated in my opinion, especially shorter races. It's really difficult to dehydrate in under three hours, for example, which is, you know, I run marathons in about two and a half hours. So dehydration is not something I face at that level. But at the longer levels, you know, that can be a thing. But I would say, you know, in ultra distances, there's these ebbs and flows of just fatigue.

57:40And at first, it's probably physical fatigue where you just can't hold the pace you want to hold. And your legs are just like, sorry bro, right? It's not happening today. But then you come out of it. So it's like you just like suck it up for an hour, you know, in the next thing, you know, it's like, well, we're flying again, you know, and you've been fueling. So it happens towards the end of the race. It's actually more like your brain is like, what is happening? Like we're fatigued out here. We're done. We're fried. It doesn't want to believe anymore, you know? And so it's really this roller coaster of, of I would say, both physical roller coaster, but an emotional roller coaster.

58:14And I think that's why people get addicted to it. I don't really promote it. You know, if we're running for health, we should be running five case. Running somewhere between a mile fast and three miles fast and training for that is the optimal thing to be doing for your health. But there is something about the challenge of running 50 miles in the mountain. So we're, you know, 50k or 100 miles or whatever. The people love. And part of it is just this emotional roller coaster and this physical roller coaster that happens, where you literally think, I'm dead, I'm done, I'm quitting. It's over. And an hour later, you're back on top of the world.

58:50Amazing. And then an hour later, you might be dead, done, I'm quitting for real. But, you know, who knows? That's a fun, fun piece of things for sure, that I think leads to the addiction of, of ultra running. Because it's really not that healthy of an activity in my opinion. But so many of these races are just in jaw droppingly beautiful places. And this combination of beautiful place with, with incredible life experience of these roller coasters is powerful. Is there anything about body type for running, like some people say if you're over a certain amount of weight, running is not for you, better to walk.

59:25Is any of that true? I mean, maybe at a certain size when you get really, really big, but for the most part, no. It's interesting. You know, I think people have this misunderstanding that, you know, if you're tall, you're going to be a better runner. Well, the average marathon champion is male is 5, 6, and 112 pounds, you know. So, tall is actually not an advantage typically. Your marathon and underrunners tend to be smaller at the elite levels. But you're, a lot of your elite ultra runners are pretty big, you know. And it's actually helpful to have more muscle mass and fat storage to go off of for these longer distances.

1:00:06And you may not see that as much in the elite of the elite, but everything from good to elite, I would say on average, the athletes who are a little bit bigger tend to do a little bit better in these longer distances, which is kind of an interesting thing. But yeah, for general people running, you know, if we give people the right technique, they tend to be fine. And I find that people that are heavier tend to adopt better technique easier. They haven't learned as bad of habits. And their body naturally is like, we got a lot of weight hitting the ground here. We need to spend more mind power and emphasis on protecting ourselves.

1:00:39And they can kind of overcome their bad shoes more than the average person might be able to, which is an interesting thing for sure. Do you mention grounding earlier? Did you ever consider making the ultra's groundable? Yeah, my sister very early on was like, you should put grounding plugs in ultra's, you know. And it was like, at the time we were mostly making running shoes. And it's like, that's like half an hour out of the day for most people. And people can ground any other time of the day. You know, they take their shoes off before or after they're run and get the benefits that way. And from an engineering standpoint, it was difficult and a marketing standpoint, very challenging to kind of tell that story.

1:01:22So it didn't get off the ground, but it was definitely considered and didn't quite make it to prototype stage, but it was in development stage for sure. If you were to do it, how would you do it? So there are shoes today that have grounding plugs in them. And they run a copper interface from the middle of the shoe. So the copper touches the ground and it runs to something that then connects with the foot. So the foot is on something that's touching the copper interface, which is then running a line down to the ground. So we're getting pretty extreme on the fringes here, but that's what people do.

1:01:55And I think it's really interesting. So it's not something I've played a whole lot with, but fun to think about at least. So when you started your shoe company, what was the first competition you had in foot shape shoes? You know, even today, there's really only one other brand making cushioned foot shape running shoes, which is fascinating and saddening at the same time to me. You know, I would say these days, and even all along, I have not always just been a pure ultra advocate, but I've been an advocate for healthy footwear. This is why I sit on the executive board of the Healthy Feet Alliance and I promote shoes besides ultra.

1:02:34Love ultra don't get me wrong. But I want people in whatever foot shape, natural zero drop shoe is going to be best for them. Yeah, there's just one other brand out there right now, at least with any cushioning. And I wish there were more, frankly. I still remember when this other brand came out and my buddy that helped me start the company as well, Brian Bex did. I remember him just being pissed. He was just like, can't believe those guys just ripped off our instinct shoe and made their own and slapped their brand on it. And it's actually the guy that started five fingers in the US doing this.

1:03:05And him and I are, you know, we're good friends and we get along. And I remember thinking like, awesome, they just totally legitimized us. Like they just made us look legit, you know. Yeah, now it's, it's like a real format. Yeah. And I think, I think part of it though is it's really hard to engineer this because shoe lasts at the factories, these foot forms that the shoe are built around. They all come with heel elevation. I see. I'll start tapered like when we did this, I had to engineer these last from the ground up. We had to literally build an entirely new shape that had never existed before.

1:03:37The last is a plastic foot. Plastic or metal foot form. Yeah. It's like a mannequin foot essentially. Yeah, except like all other shoes, it's super pointy. Yeah. And so we had to go in and make an actual one that looked like a foot and a sock basically. And that's actually how we got the shapes for the first altars is I literally took a bunch of healthy feet. And you know, my mindset was like, okay, people that get injured, I'm not going to use them. I was talking to people that never got injured. I was like, okay, you've never had any foot problems. You never get injured. Let me trace your feet.

1:04:11Where are your socks? Cause you wear socks when you wear shoes. And we're going to trace your feet and see what those shapes look like. Based on the length of a foot, how much difference is there in the width of the front of the foot from person to person? A lot. Really? Yeah. People have massive variability. It's very, very difficult to fit everybody. You kind of do the best, the best you can train get is in the middle of that bell curve as much as possible. But that said, it's better for the foot box to be too big than too small. Yeah. And that's actually a big point as a shoe, you know, when I'm actually selling a shoe or fitting somebody for a shoe, the first thing I'm going to tell them is, you know, you want your shoe to disappear.

1:04:49The shoe that's best for you is the shoe that feels the least there. And it should feel too big in the toes. And if it doesn't feel too big in the toes, it's too small. Yeah. And I will just emphasize that over and over. And I like to kind of push it a little bit far with people because most people can't grasp this. Since we have been little kids, our parents have told us to put our shoes on and tie them up tight, make sure they're secure. And that's so bad for blood flow. It's bad for foot health. Like, you know, in the real days when your toes learn to spread out and do their thing, they stabilize in the shoe.

1:05:20You know, I don't even lace my shoes anymore. You know, the only time I'll lace them is when I'm running like super technical trail or I'm doing like really fast speed work. And even then, you know, if I don't lace my shoes, my foot can go to roll or my shoe can. And my foot will be like, nope, I'm good. You know, the toes will spread out and do their thing where the, you know, the shoe does something you may not want it to do, for example. And that's just like a cool thing that a human body does once you get it back being a human body. So when you say you don't lace them, do you mean you don't have laces in them at all or you don't tie them?

1:05:52I'll put my foot in the shoe. Right. And then I'll pull my foot most of the way out of the shoe. So I'll take it. And before my heel comes all the way out of the shoe, then I'll tie the shoe nice and tight. And then I'll put my foot back in the shoe at that point in time. And from then on, that shoe is a slip on. I see. I slide it on. I slide it off. I never tie it. I never untie it until it, you know, just randomly comes untied at some point in time. So it comes on and off like a boot. Yeah, boot or a slipper, you know, and I think people like this idea of not having to tie their shoes for sure.

1:06:23For a lot of people, they have to rewire their brain again because they've just been taught my shoes should be tight. And it's uncomfortable to them for their heel to slip up and down a little bit at first. But again, the reality is once you get used to this, it's far more comfortable. You get better blood flow. It helps everything heal. Your foot stabilizes better. It's just a better way to be doing things. What's you feeling about socks or no socks? Personal. I'll say my feet stinks. So if I don't wear a marino, well, socks, it's bad for people around me. But the biggest problem with socks is socks deform your feet too.

1:06:55You know, if you've ever put a nice pair of socks up next to your foot, it's like half the size of your foot. Well, that's going to pull your toes together. And in my opinion, you know, socks are almost as responsible for foot deformation as shoes are. And so the biggest thing, you know, if you're going to wear socks and match your preference, buy them a size bigger than the package says. So for example, I'm a size nine foot. I wear a size 10 shoe. I wear socks for a size 13 to 15. Wow. And they fit great. And the thing I always have people do is just like take your sock and hold it up next to your foot.

1:07:30You know, and my foot, even with the size 13 to 15 sock, my foot is still longer than my sock is. And it's a ridiculous thing when you really think about it. So, you know, if you don't want to deform your feet, you're not your feet to be healthier. You use a sock that's bigger. Tell me more about the first year of ultra. How did you distribute them? So Ryan, Jeremy and I went and knocked on the door of running stores everywhere. We went to trade shows. We called called. There's about a thousand running stores in America. I've been in close to 700 of them personally. And you know, the approach was basically we managed shoe stores.

1:08:08Here's what other shoes do. This is why we think we make something that could be in the advantage to you. And you should carry it. And what percentage of people were interested? I'd say maybe one in three, one in four. Pick it up in the first year or so after we met with them. Probably only one in 20 that was like on the spot. Yes, let's let's go. So it was a lot of a lot of rejection. But as the years go on and the sciences, what it is, and you know, people see it more and get more familiar with it, then it becomes easier. And you know, I still remember some of these guys calling back that may have been really, really harsh to us early on.

1:08:47And just totally dismissive and calling back to get an account. Sometimes I'd be like, well, make them sweat a little bit. Don't improve that account for a few weeks, you know. I'm not vindictive by any means, but I do like to have fun with people. And you know, if you made me sweat for a few years, I might make you sweat for a couple weeks. Was there a moment in time where it felt like it really shifted to being beyond your dream successful? No, still not there. To be honest, you know, I remember like I remember being at SGB 40 under 40. We were nominated and were inducted into the 40 under 40.

1:09:26And that's like, you know, these 40 business leaders under 40 years old. And so this big big deal in the business world, whatever. I don't really care about this stuff, but I remember being asked this question. And they're like, so when did alter become bigger than you thought it would be? And I still remember Brian and Jeremy looking at each other and we're like, it's not. Like we thought it'd be bigger. And it wasn't the product. It was the whole back -end side of the business, the accounting, the shipping, the delivery, the customs, the nuts and bolts, the organization of the business that really held us back from being bigger in my opinion.

1:10:02At least, you know, that first 5, 6, 7 years. I thought we'd be bigger after four or five years than alter is now, frankly. Wow. I probably didn't see us being as big as we became in the through hiking community. That one took off really quick. And it was in that first, probably four years, we became the number one shoe on all the long trails. So people hiking Canada, Mexico, hands down, altars are the highest shoe there. And the ultra marathoning world that that came really fast too. There's not a lot of those people. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, but we did dominate that market pretty quick.

1:10:37And the trail market was about where we had kind of, I think the original vision was like, we ended up being in trail running where we kind of thought we'd be overall. And that's still catching up today. Yeah, I imagine that catching up because the again, once you wear the shoes, be hard to put on any other shoes. You know, I think people where people miss the boat and where that ends up not being true is, runners are very beholden to marketing and technology. And they're all about fast, you know. And the irony is we've got these super shoes now. And an ultra makes a super shoe called the Vanished Carbonel that's fantastic.

1:11:13But these super shoes for the most part are, they're engineered to make you run faster. But they're also engineered to injure you. And we're seeing an epidemic of runners that are running a lot of miles in these super shoes. And they have these really explosive phones. They're super bouncy. But the problem is they tend to amplify anything you do wrong as well. So what goes down has to come back up, right? And with these explosive phones, it gets amplified that much more. And so we're seeing this epidemic of injuries. You know, this is where road runners are just so beholden to this. And the best super shoes are on average making people one to two seconds faster a mile.

1:11:50And, you know, for reference, like our float run harnesses that we make, our average reviewer is saying they get 30 seconds faster a mile. You know, so we paid $12 for a float run harness or spend $300 to $500 on a pair of super shoes. Your choice. One will get you more injured and the one will get you less injured. And it's the cheaper one that gets you less injured. But the thing there is runners are so beholden to that. You know, and all the marketing is there. All the dollars are spent there. And so where we get into a problem is, you know, people go after that stuff. And also doing this stuff that we're talking about, getting your foot back into its natural position is far more important for all day every day than it is for the 30 minutes a day you run.

1:12:32You know, you have some ultra marathoners that run for an hour plus a day. You know, some elite road runners or higher level road runners that run more than an hour a day. But for the average person out there, they're running 10 to 30 minutes a day. And you're going to get a lot more benefit having your foot in natural position for all day every day than you are just for running. And so I always tell people, like at the end of the day running what you want, your biomechanically going to be better and you're going to be less injured in a pair of foot shapes you're going to drop cushion shoes. But what you wear all day every day, giving your foot back into its natural position is going to be a lot more important.

1:13:09So it would be better to wear altruis or be barefoot during the day than the little bit of time that you're exercising. Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. And that's where I think people kind of missed a boat in my opinion. And at alter, we used to do something where we called it the month long foot shape challenge. And we challenged people to wear nothing but foot shaped shoes for a month. And that included your casual wear as much as you're running where. And when those people did that, it was exactly what you said. Those people that actually took the foot shape challenge very few of them went back to regular shoes at that point in time.

1:13:46But the people that still wore what I would call modern traditional shoes all day and occasionally ran in altruis, it wasn't as hard for them to go back. Do the great winners tend to be great runners naturally or is it more based on stuff that they've learned? Sprinters are almost completely genetic. You could have the greatest coach in the world, the greatest nutrition, the greatest training. And you're either born a great sprinter or you're not. I think the most beautiful thing about distance running is that anybody can be really good. Now, can anybody make it to the Olympics? Probably not. You're kind of born in the Olympian or not to degree.

1:14:23But for the most part with distance running, you get in what you put out. And this is something my dad has always loved because he came from this non -running background. He came from being a weightlifter essentially and a really big guy. And you put the work in, you get it out. And it doesn't really matter who you are, it doesn't matter what your genetics are. Like, anybody can be respectable. And I love that too, personally. There's not a lot of sports like that, frankly. It's probably the least genetic -based sport I can think of. But what you're feeling on the heart rate training? I'm a math disciple.

1:14:57Math is Phil Maffatone's method to a degree. So I'm basically a believer in training at a really low heart rate for the bulk of my mileage. The number one cause of running injuries is supposedly overtraining. It's training with the wrong technique. It's training your body too much. So I guess in that sense, it's overtraining. And the best way to come back overtraining and therefore running injuries is just a freaking slow down. It should be enjoyable. And I don't know really always how to explain it to people. But I know that when I tell them to do it, almost everybody comes back to me and is like, well, I have to walk at that heart rate.

1:15:30Or like, that's too slow. Like, I don't feel like I'm running. It's like, yeah, well, that's kind of how it is at first. And your body adapts. Next thing you know, you're running at that same heart rate a few months later. And you're going a lot faster. And, you know, for me, I kind of describe it like this. Sometimes my wife will call me on while I'm out on the run. And a few minutes into my run, she'll be like, are you running right now? And that's a good way to describe if you're running at the right heart rate most of the time. If somebody could give you a call on the phone and they might not know you're running, you know, for a while.

1:16:01It might take them while before they're like, oh, you're out running, aren't you? And what people don't understand with this is the way the aerobic engine is built. It doesn't matter whether you're running at the top end of your aerobic zone or the bottom end of your aerobic zone. You get the same benefit either way. So you might as well run slower and put more volume in, which also does less muscle damage, which means you're more recovered so that when you do want to go faster or hard, you're more fresh and able to do that. So essentially you get the same benefit. You can put in more volume and your fresher to hit it harder when you want to hit it harder.

1:16:35And that's why it works. And I don't hear a lot of people talk about that why of the component. And I'm a big, why guy? When did you first hear about Phil Maffatone? My mom went to a Maffatone coaching thing when I believe Sockini, who is her sponsor at the time, and probably early 90s sometime, probably somewhere around the time I ran my first marathon. And it took a while and I probably didn't fully embrace it all the way until about the time I started ultra. Again, and I haven't had a major running injury since that time. So it's been 13 years now and I've never had an IT band injury or an knee injury or shin splints or runners near any of this stuff.

1:17:16Tell me about your first marathon. So when I think about it, I feel like I'm talking about somebody else's life. And maybe it's because when you run long distance, you burn brain cells. And I've just burned too many brain cells running as a young kid. You know, my parents, they had read that the longer kids crawl the more intelligent they'd be. There were some studies on this. And so they always push me down whenever I stand up to walk. And I just got pushed down all the time as a toddler. And one day they they sent me outside the car and didn't realize there was a playground there. And I had never walked before, but supposedly I took off running and ran to the playground.

1:17:54Before I had ever done any extensive walk, you know, I maybe got a step two, three steps in before I got knocked over. That was me running before I walked supposedly. Again, like I don't remember this. And I ran at a young age. My parents were race directors. So, you know, put races on. So I ended up running races. I just liked it. And when I was eight, I won the World Youth Championships. And it was kind of like, this was a shorter race, like 3K, I think. I was kind of like, what's next? And my next door neighbor was an Olympic trials qualifier as well in the marathon. My mom was a multi -time Olympic trials qualifier.

1:18:28My mom was the state record holder in the marathon. My dad, you know, was elite as well. And I remember just thinking, well, the Saint George marathon is like the thing. I mean, they do Boston and stuff too, but really, like, at least in my circle, like Saint George Marathon wasn't the thing everybody keyed in on. And if you're not familiar with this, Saint George is down by Las Vegas, Nevada. Beautiful red rock scenery. You know, it's basically a road marathon that looks like it should be a trail race. It's just gorgeous. Start to finish. And I was like, well, everybody else does that. I want to do that.

1:19:02You know, I was like, hey, dad, I want to run the Saint George. He's like, you're eight. No, you know, and so that year, I turned nine. And that year at Saint George, the youngest runner wins the performance of the day trophy, which is the six foot tall trophy. And I'm telling you to a little sawed off run four foot tall, you know, nine year old runner, there is nothing more cool than a six foot tall trophy. Like that is the pinnacle of life at that point in time. And I just remember turning my dad and watching the awards ceremony. And he ran, you know, this kid was 12, ran four and a half hour marathon, which is super impressive.

1:19:39And I just remember turning my dad and just being like, you're gonna let me run. I would've got to go to a trophy, you know, and I never let it go. Like I just kept pestering him and pestering him. And the next spring, at one point, he was just like fine, fine, just leave me alone. If you run rim to rim in the Grand Canyon, harder than a marathon. And you run up Mount Tim Penogas and back, you know, also harder than a marathon. And do these other couple things that are marathon equivalent, basically, I'll let you run the marathon. And I really think the thinking at the time was like, he'll realize that this is a horrible idea, that this is super painful and it takes a ton of commitment.

1:20:19And, you know, he'll try to do one of these things and just like pull the plug and go back to running short stuff for, you know, playing basketball. I played a ton of basketball and football as a kid. So, and I'm kind of messed up because I liked it, you know, in fact, we went and ran rim to rim. And this is kind of where it started and ended. And I got done the first day and I suffered, but like they were doing half a soup by the next day. And if you know about half a soup, it's one of the most beautiful places in the world. It's kind of the same thing. It's at least a marathon level effort to run down into half a soup by end back out.

1:20:54And they were going to do that the next day, my dad and his friends that I was with. And, you know, they were like, okay, you've had enough right? And I was like, no, I'm going to have a soup by end up running 50 miles in two days. Basically back to back marathons as a nine -year -old. Unbelievable. And that was it. You know, at that point, the writing was on the wall, right? I was going to do Mount Tipinogus and I was going to do these other things. And it wasn't going to be a problem. And so he was essentially lost a bet with me, was forced to let me run. And, you know, it's not like I was doing all this specific training or anything, but I had done things that were harder than the race, had no expectations.

1:21:29It was just like, I go out and have fun. Three hours, eight minutes, five seconds. Wow. This is seven minutes a mile. And for a marathon. Yeah, for a marathon. State record. Nine -year -old. I turned 10 right before the race. So it was 10 on race day. And of course the next couple of years, I ran faster. And you know, I'm about the same speed as the elite Olympic trials qualifying woman. And they don't like that. You know, that's an ego below one of four foot tall sawdoth front with red hair goes by. Lots of swear words. I learned a lot of new vocabulary at that point in time. That's super fun.

1:22:07It really was. And it still is for me. And I think that's like one of the biggest pieces of advice I give to people is like make it fun. I live in a place now in Golden Colorado. I've got about 20 trailheads within a 15 minute drive. And for me, any day I want to go. It's just like, what sounds fun today? What do I want to do? I want to go get my hands dirty and scramble off the cliffside. Or you want to climb up a mountain and bomb down this trail. Or do I want to go through the deep dark and chanted forest in the snow? Who knows? So I think that's a big piece of things. You hit it on the head.

1:22:41It should be fun. Is it as much fun for you as it's always been? I think it might even be more fun. That's great. No. I'll tell you this. I'm on break right now. There's this book, Train Hard Winny's eBite Toby Tansor. He went and lived with the canyons, right? And he writes in the book that a lot of these world champions don't run three months of the year. They just totally take it off. No workouts at all. And when I read that, I was like, well, I should do that. Like, if the best in the world are doing that, I should try that. And I think that has been one thing that has always kept it fun for me is, you know, I've always taken two, three months off.

1:23:14I don't run. I do other stuff. You know, it's winter right now. I snowboard. I snow shoe. I play basketball. I just pick a ball. You name it. Like, it shouldn't be rote and routine and boring. Yeah. Like, if that's the way it's happening, like, find something else to do.

1:24:03I'm going to do it.