Jack Harlow

27:09She still understands everything. She still helps me with career decisions. I'll send her a song, somebody wants a feature, I'll send her the song, and she helps me decide. She has a... She gets it, man. So cool. So lucky. Yeah. Tell me about your audience, who are the people who come to the shows, who are the people that send you messages? Young, but also a lot of grown people too. But definitely, I'd like to think I have a younger audience, at least, you know, when When I look out immediately in front of me the first six rows, it's a lot of young women, a lot of young women, a different race, but I always do see a pocket of like, I always see in my shows behind like the 12 rows of women, there's like a pocket of like 400 white boys that are like six foot five, that are packed there in basketball jersey.

28:06So definitely got that to. to tell me about the collective that you're part of. Private Garden. Yeah. It's a collective we started right before I graduated high school. It's made up of MCs and producers and my best friend, Urban, Heads of Photographer, Ace Pro, Nemo, Toofuans, Sloob, Kiso. I think for me, I was just desperate to find someone that I thought was really talented in my city. And I also grew up with a lot of friends that maybe supported what I did but weren't involved in music So suddenly I found a group of friends when I would turn like 17 that really helped mold my taste and Or from a different neighborhood than me and just had like a certain flavor that I may have been lacking at the time and just were a little older than me So a lot of the guys in my collective like really helped me push to get better and better and lended a lot of perspective like sonically to what I was doing.

29:09I think just matured my taste a lot. So I don't know, you probably know how important a guild is, like just having a group when you're young that just, you can bounce off of and push each other that you think is dope that you try to outdo each other and... This is cool. Yeah, it really helps. It really helps to have friends to bounce ideas off of. Even if you do different things, just to, it's like a professional audience in the some way, you know? And so I'm going to be inspired by it's really helpful. Thousand percent. Tell me about the growing up where you grew up and how what impact you think that that had on you or has on you.

29:51Well, the highlands is definitely a mostly white area but it was one of those areas that kids after school because I went to public school. So we had a lot of kids from different neighborhoods, from rougher neighborhoods come to the school and after school people would want to stay in the Highlands where the school was because the area just had this this energy of acceptance and it was active you know you could go play basketball you could go to shops it just had that the Highlands is just like this center of the city that brings people from all different parts of the city to it on weekends after school whatever so I think I don't know if I would have been a rapper had I not grown up in the Highlands because I was able to go to school with a lot of black kids and a lot of white kids too, but there was a variety to the people in my school.

30:47There was a diversity. And I think it just lended me a lot of perspective and also spending so much time walking around in the Highlands like gave me a neighborhood energy. Like I knew what it was like to be outside, to have conversations, to get in trouble, to be confronted by strangers. I was just taking in life at a really early age, instead of being inside or being in a bubble. I wasn't in a deep suburb, isolated from the world. I was taking the world in and having run -ins and getting in trouble and doing silly shit. Huge. I think the area I grew up in, I don't know if I would be a compelling rapper, or maybe I just would be a different rapper.

31:25I don't know. Describe what it's like, like, like their tall buildings, or tell me exactly what it's like. like, paying to picture for me of where you grew up. So I understand it. I'm about to paint it, but you should watch the They Don't Love It music video because I shot it and visually captured exactly what you're asking for. I shot it all through the neighborhood I grew up in. But there's tall buildings in Louisville, but in the Highlands neighborhood where I grew up, it's like the center point of it is this road called barstown road that is kind of a narrow major road. So it's pedestrian friendly, like you can yell across the street to the next person.

32:07And there's just local shops. It's full of local businesses. Like that record store I told you about was one of the landmark spots. So there's always been a arts culture and energy. And now there's one that we're really trying to preserve. Because you know a national chain just hits a corner every once in a while. And it's like, yeah, don't take away this energy. But I don't know, it's kind of like an artsy district. And the architectures are old like, old like the 1950s and 1920s. I feel like it's the 20s. I don't know what exact period you would say it is, but even the houses have a sort of aged energy.

32:44It's a historic neighborhood for sure. It's still trying to picture it. How close is it that the houses together? The houses are right up against each other. Yeah, the houses are right up against each other and residential and commercial are like Are integrated like it's not they're not removed from one another Damn, I love the challenge you're giving me to really vividly paint this for you Did you walk to school every day? I'd usually catch the bus So I don't have to get up as early, but I'd walk home almost every day. I'd walk home from school almost every day And how many minutes would that take?

33:1715 or 20 Tell me about how you ended up getting into film Just in general. Yeah, I mean how did you you start your career doing music? You find some success in music next thing you know you're in a film. I Just got a call one day to do white man can't jump and I Was always interested in acting and people be like, yo, you should be an actor. I took theater in high school But I never took it super serious But it was always an option to me. It just was second to rap and then And the opportunity came and I jumped at it and I think I'm going to continue to jump at it because, definitely, a liberating craft.

33:59I like it a lot. Tell me about doing theater in school. We learned how to do improv and we put on little plays in front of the class at least. And our teacher was pretty lagged, Mr. Perry. He... There's a lot of days where we wouldn't do nothing. We would just hang out with each other, which was phenomenal. So that's why I say it wasn't it wasn't super disciplined But there were moments where I would take something away and It just lets me know I had an interest in acting early because I chose to do theater. I was like, you know, I'd like to do theater So there's something in my DNA for it There's something about getting up in front of people that some people find it really Exciting to do and other people like it's the last thing they want to do is get up in front of other people Yeah, I definitely I always been an attention -hor.

34:51I don't know what's wrong with me. Speaking of which, how did you first get attention as an MC? Like what was the first thing you did that got noticed? In school. By the time I was in sixth grade, we had Facebook. So I was on the internet with my classmates and I was uploading songs. So my class was seen in. But really, I would burn CDs and take them to school and sell them for two dollars and I'd record them on a laptop So in middle school people knew what my dream was like I was putting myself fully out there and I was telling people I'm gonna be a rapper Here's my music and There was a lot of hate just like their continues to be but there was a lot of love just like their continues to be There's a lot of people that just saw it they got it and they were like yeah, you're him You're gonna be it.

35:40So I think I just received enough positive feedback early that I was like, yes, what I'm gonna do. It's amazing. Yeah. Did you ever try to spread it beyond local in those days? Like, what were the things that you would do when you would record to spread the word? I mean, you would upload it to YouTube and you would just hope it would catch, but it wasn't until I was in high school that it started to leave Louisville. When I got to high school, I was shooting videos with local videographers. And it wasn't going viral, but you would see someone from Massachusetts comment, like, yo, I see what you're doing down there, you know?

36:24And then when I graduated, I dropped a video when I was like 19 called Dark Night. And it changed everything. Like, it got me signed. I uploaded it to Twitter and it went viral. It was super viral. That was my first experience of like everyone, all eyes on me, like culturally I'm being digested, like they know who I am. How many things did you put out leading up to that? Because for most people that would been the first, the first thing, maybe the only thing they saw, just to give perspective for people who were aspiring to do this, how many things may you have put out before that? I mean, tons, tons, like, and just isolated songs.

37:08I mean, the remix was such a big thing 10, 12 years ago. I was just doing remixes when I was a young, like, when I was a kid, I just, I did a black and yellow remix. I did a moment for life remix. I did six foot seven foot. Like, I was just doing remixes. So, I had tons of wraps on the internet already. People have been able to watch me grow into myself, Not only just becoming a man, but growing into the comfort of my swagger, of my own self -belief. You could visually see my confidence change. People have been able to watch my evolution. I put a lot out there before anything caught. It's crazy because the song I just said went viral.

37:50It changed my career. That was three, four years ahead of my first hit song that actually did something on Billboard that changed my career. like there's so many beginnings, right? Like, like, dark night that record in my viral, like, that gave me an internet presence, but there's still so many people. And who know, I might drop a song in a year that I'm like, in 20 years, I'm like, yeah, that's one of those beginnings too. Like, it's just, there's always new chunks of discovery. And so, yeah, there's different points of discovery for people. But I have a lot of music out. I have a lot of attempts out in the world in front of the world like people can get a very clear idea of who I was as a teenager.

38:37Is that going to look?

38:43There's a song on the new project called Gang Gang Gang. I was hoping you'd bring this up. Would you be up for an Accapella rendition of gang gang gang? I Would love to you say those words Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to Drive for my dogs die for my dogs live for my dogs Right for my dogs live for my dogs die for my dogs Home for the holidays My friend pulled me to the side like did you hear about Marcus our Marcus? Yeah, our Marcus a bunch of girls say rape them in the back of some target They say drove them back there in the car and then he parked it in the rest is even darker Wait, which Marcus because it can't be yes our Marcus the same Marcus we collected Pokemon cars with the one with perfect grades It has family in New Orleans.

39:39Yes, that Marcus. He's got seven rape charges You want the second verse? Home for the holidays. My friend pulled me to the side like, did you hear about Kevin? Kevin who? Art Kevin. What happened? He got arrested. They found a bunch of messages. He sent the little kids and apparently he met up with this 10 year old and not a kid saying he got molested. molested by who? By Kevin. Nah, it's got to be a different Kevin. Look, I'm telling you it's Kevin that we've known since we were seven, the one whose dad's a Reverend, the same Kevin we spend every weekend with and called Brethren. Rhyme for my dogs, lie for my dogs, lie for my dogs.

40:22Truthfully, it's family till it can't be, gang till it ain't, twins, but it depends. Brothers and cells, something is uncovered. Dogs until the lifting of the fog, I always got you turns into well. I never thought you. Years of camaraderie suddenly disappear, almost like you never were here. Uncondition the love becomes very condition when push comes to shove and all that talk I could take em bullets, suddenly feels foolish. Pictures with em turn to add campaigns, you gotta pull it. Feet held to the fire, we hold accountable. The ones we hold dear out of morals, but maybe fear. The choice becomes clear.

40:56And years of camaraderie suddenly disappear. Almost like you never were here. Almost like you never were here. Tell me about what sparked that and how that one came to be.

41:11Well, I got to give credit to Rashad Thomas who made the beat. And as soon as I heard the beat, I thought it was totally one of one, which is what I was looking for a lot of times on this album. And what I continue to look for is just something that is totally uncategorizable or comparable. And so I heard the beat and I heard the samples gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang. And it sounded old, but it reminded me of how in modern times, like everybody's like, gang gang gang like it's just it's such a modern phrase to just say gang gang gang to basically describe how down you are with your with your boys your gang and so I started to think about you know the flip side of that loyalty and how deep loyalty can go and it's influenced by a few personal experiences but um I guess I just wanted to paint that picture I heard the beat the beat really helped me write that song just the Kangang gang repeatedly I was just like and it was so eerie I Just wanted to surprise people.

42:12I just wanted there to be a turn in the story and The phrasing of Kevin which Kevin our Kevin it's so good Thank you. It's so good. It's really good. I was hoping you bring that up. I like you so much I couldn't wait for you to hear that song. It's beautiful Thank you. And it feels like I haven't heard another song like it. Like it's... That's what I want, man. Yeah, it strikes a very particular life experience that feels like it's relatable but unique. I've not heard that song before. Thank you. How has success been different than you expected? I didn't expect for it to feel so fragile feel and feel so just vulnerable.

43:03The decisions I just won't make anymore. I'll give you an example. I think one of the driving forces early on when I was starting to rap and trying to get on is like, I just wanted the girl in my class to like me. You just make music for women a lot because I wanted that attention, that validation. and then you reach a place where you may get a piece of that, but it's better that you don't give too much access. So it's funny that you're in for these things and then you're in a position and it's like, maybe you may partake a little less than you thought you might have. I don't know, I don't drink anymore.

43:51There's so many things that I've just cut out of my life because it feels like what I have is, well, when it's feeding more than just myself, but it's just so precious that I don't want to play any games with it. Like, I just, it's like I'm out of my juvenile phase completely. It feels like, and this is more recent. This is kind of like a recent answer. You know, I don't want to sleep with random women. I don't want to do hard drugs. I don't want to be shit -faced in public. Like, there's just so many things that I'm just like, This gives you this gives you access to basically so much of what you want and then you realize it's better off if I don't take it I guess it's what I'm saying And a recent answer is really good considering we're doing this right now.

44:35So it's perfect It's perfect to give a recent answer for today. Well, I guess yeah, I guess I just mean that I May not have had the same answer six months ago, you know Yeah Also the the idea of you're doing this because you want women to like you and now if women like you because this is what you do, does that really feel good? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Confusing, right? I remember hearing rappers talk about how they felt like, man, women like me because of what I do. And when I was like 12 or 13, I thought it was cool. I couldn't understand why they were complaining. I was like, that's awesome that they like you, because you're a rapper like, that's awesome.

45:18It's so funny, but... Any other surprises about success or that's different than you envisioned it being? This may not be the perfect response, but I just... What your question as far as out of me is just like... How terrible social media is, and how I just would encourage all of my contemporaries or anyone on the come up that when they reach like... Because it's become so normal to just be on there constantly, It's not even a weird thing. People don't look at it like cigarettes yet. It's not treated like it's taboo, but you really gotta take time off of there. Even if it's just for the simple reason, you shouldn't be digesting everyone's thoughts all day.

46:06And I think it's even more heavy when the thoughts are about you. I just think I couldn't anticipate how crucial staying off the internet really is. And I did this whole album off the internet and I saw what it did for me, I saw what solitude and kind of isolation from what a million other people think. Not even about me, just about society. So many social cues on an internet. Suddenly, people's vocabulary just turns into the mass vocabulary and you're not writing anything original. You're not ingesting anything original. If I had been on the internet, I don't know if I would have written gang, gang, gang, for example.

46:42That song came to me at a time where it's like, in my hometown recording, and I'm not taking in what everyone thinks about what's cool or what's right or what's wrong. I'm just writing something that inspires me and that's how I wrote when I was 12, 13 before I'm exposed to the whole world. So I just think, gotta stay off social media. Use it as a tool for sure, but to just be idly scrolling, it's just, whoo! That's how I feel. What do you listen to mostly? How to bad have it for a while of not listening to music, cleaning the house silently, drive silently. I think music could stop being like a thing of enjoyment for me and more like my job and I use it as a tool.

47:25While I was recording, I made a point to listen to as much as I could and just take in a lot of stuff. So I can at least say while I was writing this album, I was listening to like a lot of Slum Village and most of a lot of the Beatles. and I got that book, 500 greatest albums, Rolling Stone, and I just will open it to a random page and just listen to a new album. Just, I was just trying to ingest new music, like stuff I'd never heard. A lot of things people call classics that I just didn't grow up with. I'm like, well, let me go see what the hype's about. And what were things that you took away from that experience?

48:04being conceptual. I tell you one thing I was living by Rick when I was writing this. All my heroes, if you were to distill their legacy down to like one sentence, what I've realized is like what they really added to the game is what they talked about. Like they talked about something for the first time. Like, yay, came through and talked about something for the first time. Like, well, Eminem wrote Stan, no one had written a song about a fan like that. Like when Drake wrote Marvin's Room, no one had written that type of song as a rapper. Like these artists, like they talked about something new and of course they added a new sonic, a ton of voice to attitude, all that's crucial, but this time around, like I wanted to talk about things people hadn't talked about.

48:49So I think that's what I gained from a lot of the music I was listening to is like, whoa, I've never heard a song like this. So yeah, and I think that's really my agenda moving forward is original topics. I think Andre 3000 is great at touching on original topics.

49:12Diswriting always start with a track for you. And long form, yes. But it often starts with one line without a track. And then I'll apply it to a track. Have you ever written a song to a track and then changed the track? Yes, and it can be very effective. It's crazy. Especially if you go up the tempo, then your flow can sound insane. Probably works both ways, but the most fun I've had doing it was when I picked a beat there was a couple BPMs higher and I spit the same flow and it just fell into a crazy pocket that was like whoa it sounds so it just sounds so sharp oh no yeah it's also interesting hearing you say that what I think of is there's so much so many accents and beats that if you switch to a different beat the accents are different in the music but you've written it to a different set of accents so when you put them together, sometimes it doesn't work, but sometimes it creates this thing that you never would have written that kind of phrasing to that kind of accented beat and it feels really new.

50:22Maybe just because a couple extra perks or lack of perks, like just where the music is leaning. Yeah, your syllables bounce off at different, it's so crazy. How do you describe what you do versus what other MCs do? That's a tough one for it. Another way of thinking about it would be if you think about what it is that you like about your contemporaries and think about what you do that's different than those things that you like about what they do. That might help. That is narrow it down a little bit. That is helpful. I don't know. I heard Kanye talking, maybe he was in the genius talk at some point he was talking about how you felt frustrated that he had to write at this certain level because he couldn't just jump to a gum bar.

51:12And I don't know. It resonated with me because being authentic is super important to me. And I know I didn't come from a street background. So I think I'm always reaching for something that is super authentic. And authentic to me, where his hip hop has such a street culture behind it that if you do come from that, or if you are telling that story, you can always use that as a pillar. You can always talk about a street background and telling an incredible story. And so obviously there's other artists in the game that ain't straight, but I just feel like I have to reach for stories that are more on my own, and maybe more not in line with the traditions of hip hop, at least to keep it fresh.

51:59I would look at that as a great opportunity. I think that's a wide open field to talk about your real life experiences and the things that you go through that I'm sure so many people, I mean obviously so many people who listen to rap don't grow up dealing drugs in the street. For example, not everyone does. So it's a much wider thing. I think the reason that hip hop has continued to unfold and grow globally is because it's not really about one thing. You know, if you make it about one thing, you can do that. But it's much wider than that. And I'll relate a story from my life about punk rock. I grew up on punk rock was the music that I grew up on, like when I was in junior high school and high school.

52:55And the punk rock that started from England was always related to politics. And it talked about class struggle and things that we didn't really experience in the US, like things that most kids that I knew didn't relate to the lyrics of the English punk rock. And then there was this whole wave of American punk rock called Hardcore that was, it seemed like it was just following inspired by the English punk rock talking about those same things. And it didn't really make sense, like it didn't feel authentic to me because I knew I lived a suburban life and these other kids who were making this music lived a suburban life and they were singing about these political issues that didn't relate at all to our lives that didn't make sense.

53:41And then a band from DC came along called Minor Threat. And Minor Threat was the first band that they didn't really talk about politics. They talked about social issues. They talked about something really you might experience in the classroom in school. It was rarely about the classroom, but it was about, you know, a friend lying to you or something like that, which was, that was much more real in life than some political philosophical that didn't really relate to our lives. So, minor threat was sort of the best of the punk rock bands because what they sung about was relatable and real and true to them.

54:21And because it was true to them, even if it wasn't true to us, you could feel the humanity in it. So, in some ways, the fact that you grew up when you grew up, you're probably closer to much more of the audience then the people who were talking just about the street. So there's potential for you to tap into very personal stories and avoid anything inauthentic and it seems like that's only good for you. I would agree. Tell me about your relationship with your brother. Great relationship. He's become a producer over the last few years. You got a placement on my last one. He's really talented. He's gonna be excellent.

55:08So he's joined this like music world with me. He grew up an athlete, playing soccer, but now he's fully entrenched in music. His name's Clay. And he's excellent. And you know, before Blame on me came out, I shouted to him and my dad, just so they didn't have to hear it with the world, just to see what they thought. And they both took it. Really well, I prefaced it the same way I talked to you about it of how it was inspired and such, but I'd laid it out there. I mean, they still heard the song for what the song was in them. I think it was heavy, but it was good. But me and Clay have a really good relationship at this point in my life.

55:46Like, we're close. We play soccer together every week. Like, we're in the studio together. He goes on tour with me. We're definitely in a autobiographical and not inspired by anyone else's story. It would have been as okay sharing it with them. You think the response would have been the same? I actually do. I think it would have been the same. It may have been difficult to take but like the preface I gave them almost was just soft in the energy. As true as it was, a lot of that song is from my life and I don't have to tell them that. They lived with me, so they know which parts are. They know what's up.

56:40So there was still enough of, there was still so much of that song that is me. Majority of it that they, you know, I think I got an idea how they would take it if it was 100%. You know, it's just, cause really what I said inspired it, pushed me to do it. It didn't necessarily write the vivid details. It just pushed me to create the song. The vivid details are my own. Did you know from the time of writing the first verse that each verse was going to be from a different perspective? No, I didn't. I wrote the first verse and sat with it. I just wanted to write from a perspective besides my own. I've been trying to get out of like, this is how Jack Harlow feels, this is what he thinks, this is what he sees.

57:27I've been trying to get out of being in Jack Harlow land. So I think I just wanted to tell that story without telling it from mine, without being like, oh, I did these bad things. I wanted to tell it from the story that someone that was a victim in a sense. And then I was like, maybe the second verse can be from mine. And then I didn't even have the third verse in mind yet. And I write the second verse and I'm like, huh, well, you know, this could keep going. This can be bigger than just siblings. So then I wrote the third one. It's a really cool idea and I've not heard that song either. I've heard there's a great cat Steven song called, I want to say it's called Father and Son, not sure if it's called that, but it's a conversation between a father and son like an argument between a father and son.

58:15It's really beautiful. That's powerful. You know what inspired that third verse I just realized, have you ever read how to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie. There's an opening called Father Forgets at the beginning of the book. At the very beginning of the book, it almost has nothing to do with the rest of the book. It's like he included it as just it's called Father Forgets and it's just this short passage about a father writing a letter to his son about how hard he's been on him and how much he regrets it. And I read that. I think I was 18. I read that. I was just reading in the park and Art don't make me feel I don't cry from Art very much.

58:56I burst into tears reading a book. It was insane. It was the most insane feeling like couldn't control it. Didn't decide to cry. Obviously just it just fell out of my face. And so that I have rarely been touched by writing the way I was touched by Father forgets and that really helped inspire that third verse. But you know why I was listening to a lot too when I was writing this album since you as early, Carly Simon and the concept, she was right. And like, fair weather father, that song is just so crazy. Just like, she just would come up with the catchiest ways to tell us super specific stories.

59:36I mean, let alone your, your so vain, like, it's just like all these joints that are just like right to a concept. And I was just like, wow. And it's crazy how the specific stuff is so big. You try to write a big song about the world and how big the world is, don't connect. You got to get right to it. And that's what I was trying to do. So thank you. Seriously. Is a movie by what I check out. I don't know if you ever seen called the Ojimbo, which is a Japanese movie by Kurosawa. That's, it's three versions of the same story told from three different points of view. So you get to see one character's version of what happened and you get to see the next character's version of what happened and finally you get to see the third characters version of what happened and they're all completely different.

1:00:24Yo, Jim Bo. Yo, Jim Bo. Yeah. What got you on to Carly Simon? Was that from the 500 great albums book?

1:00:35I think I was just on a 70s kick. I've been listening to her for a couple of years and I just This was exploring a bunch of music from the 70s and landed on her. My mom played me, you're so vain years ago. So I was sort of familiar, but just to get into more of her discography, the songwriting, I just love specific stuff. I love stuff that isn't general or just a vibe. Like, at least right now in my life, I don't want to hear a vibe or something that's kind of ambiguous. I love stuff that is just like, right to it. That's what I'm enjoying right now. Do you still get to listen to music with your mom?

1:01:11Sometimes. I played her the album early, so that was fun. How'd she like it? She likes it a lot. I like how the songs are so short. It feels very direct and specific and does what it needs to do, you know. Thank you. Thank you. Cool, man. Well, it's a pleasure speaking to you. Anything else that you think we would be helpful for us to talk about? Now you did a great job man. I really appreciate this. You know, I can't lie to some of the people that helped put out my project, were a little nervous about the lack of press. I wanted to do this, but I just really wanted to let the music speak. And they said, well, if you could do one interview, you know, what would you do when I was like, break a rubin', but you know, I was like, it's a long shot.

1:02:00If y 'all can make that happen, I'm down, but I tried to create something that felt like, y 'all can't get me that and then sure enough. So I just wanna say thank you. I really appreciate this. And you helped me make this album that we're talking about right now, from a distance, but you helped me so thank you. Thank you, sir. And I look forward to meeting you sooner than later in person and we'll hug. I can't wait. Who man?

1:02:46pleasecken