JAŸ-Z in 8: Inside the Series

0:00Jay-Z in eight. Streaming this weekend on HBO in North America and on Mubi everywhere else.

0:11Tetragrammaton.

0:34There are so many Beatles documentaries, so many McCartney documentaries, and almost all of them seem to be about the same thing. Either Beatlemania or songwriting, both of which great topics, but there's a whole other world. And I was interested in the musicianship aspect of it. And I couldn't find books or films about the Beatles as musicians, so that was the focus of 321. having that experience thinking who's a popular artist who may not be seen as they actually are and I thought about Jay because people think about Jay as a great businessman executive billionaire married to Beyonce I just thought it'd be really beautiful to show that that artistry because without the artistry none of the other stuff happens and I'm so happy he decided to do it.

1:24Yeah, especially because he doesn't really do many interviews. I don't feel like watching it, it occurred to me that I don't think I've ever heard him speak at such length before. I remember hearing that you wanted your first album to be your only album. Yeah. That was your original plan. Yeah. Tell me about that. I don't know where that thought came from, but it was serious for me. I had these goals. I have one record, it'll go gold. I see. And that'll be it. and then I'll have this company. I've always thought like a businessman. It was like I was fighting an artist. I didn't love being an artist.

2:00I didn't like shooting videos. I didn't like interviews. I didn't like speaking. I was pretty much an introvert. This was the way I spoke. I would never talk like that if you were sitting around me. People that sat around me was like, go look it up. Everyone says, he was so quiet. He never said anything, blah, blah, blah. I would never talk like in those days. I would never have a conversation. You know, and it was part of the, you know, my job. You're not talking to people. Keep yourself sane. Stay in the shadows. You a hustler. You want to be on TV? That goes against everything. Who are you?

2:40There's no early footage of me. I would never let any cameras come around me. Film me? Oh, no, we're going to have a fight. Like there's gonna be a problem filming me. So everything I was doing was counterintuitive to how I lived. And I didn't like the music business. I wanted to do it because I had a dream and I had a talent to do it, but I didn't wanna be in. Yeah, you didn't aspire to be an artist. I didn't aspire to be an artist. Yeah, so I was like, I'm gonna do this and then I'll have a company. Daniel, to some people you and Rick linking up is a bit of an unlikely pair. And so I wonder what was it about your conversations or things that you share in common that made you think that you guys should actually work together?

3:32Then we were hanging out and then he said I want to show you something. And then he showed it to me. And then I was like, I like it. These are my thoughts. And then he mentioned to my Jay-Z thing and I was like, ah cool, he said it's eight hours long. So I was ready for eight hours. Then by like three and a half, it was so dense. It was hard. It was like steep. But then I wrote some thoughts that I had about it. I was like, oh, this and that and this and that and this. Remember he said verbatim, he was like, he said, I don't know what you're talking about. I think you do that. So why don't you do it?

4:10And then I was like, what do you mean? He said, you do it. And I was like, all right, cool. And then I did it. What's mad is that I just, I love music, so I get bored of modern music. There's no feeling in it. There's money in it. And then, like, I just finished listening to Jay-Z chronologically, just randomly. I was just going to my favourite artist and listening chronologically. So, yeah, it wasn't like, oh, let's work. It was just that kind of, like, you had this idea, and I had thoughts about it. Then I just was invested. Yeah, and I think I share your sentiments, especially perhaps where rappers can sound, that there isn't as much feeling as a lot of the rappers that I grew up on.

4:46Because I think that for a lot of people, Jay's always spoken about as one of the best to ever do it. But I think for a lot of modern rap listeners, that's not necessarily something that's apparent to them. They don't really understand why that is. And so, you know, rap is always something that I consider to be like my first musical love. He introduced me to politics. It sparked my interest in social issues. I wonder, what does hip hop maybe mean for the both of you? Well, it came along at a time I was going to school at NYU and some kids in school had mixtapes. and there was no hip-hop on the radio.

5:17It was a totally underground form of music, same time as punk rock music. I was listening to more punk rock at the time. And I started listening to these tapes and it felt like it feels just like punk rock to me. It had the same energy of young people, street level, something to say, saying it. It wasn't from the conservatory. And that spoke to me. And then when I went to NYU, I started going to hip hop clubs. It was one, Negril, which was a reggae club, six nights of the week. And one night a week, they had hip hop. And I would go to that every week, Tuesday nights. And at that time, the only records that you could buy that were hip hop really were for DJs.

6:03They would be 12-inch singles, but very limited. and none of them had the energy that I experienced going to the club. So as a fan, I just wanted to make something that sounded more like what I heard at the club. Really like documentarian of hip hop. And those were the first Death Jam records. Daniel, what about you? What's your relationship with hip hop? I was the only boy in my household. So with more R &B, it was in my house. Like Desi Child, Lauryn Hill. and then I just record everything from the radio like HFM or like BJ 279 I would just record rap like that's all I would do is just listen to music and while I was going on holiday with my mum and I just I just have CDs like Biggie two-part Jay like listen listen listen and now I look back at Kathri was just articulating what was happening to me that I wasn't able to like talk about and all the feelings I had and the frustrations I had it was like painting my inner world yeah One of the things you said earlier, Rick, was about how this documentary kind of shows a side of Jay-Z that we don't really know or get to experience very much.

7:08And I remember being quite struck by, there's a tenderness, there's a real tenderness to him and a real sort of eloquence to the way that he articulates himself. I mean, I think a lot of musicians outside of rap can really struggle with, which is why they are often drawn to music. And I remember feeling emotional at certain points, particularly when he spoke about the relationship with his father. And I wonder, was there anything for you, Rick, that you found surprising to you? So many things. The fact that he never wanted to be an artist, really. Like the whole thing happened to him and he never wanted to be famous.

7:42The worst part of his job is that he feels like he doesn't really have the personal life that we all have because fame comes with all these traps. And again, he's not complaining. He says, you know, he's thankful that it all worked out the way it did. But it wasn't anything he was looking for. He wasn't yearning for fame. Just the opposite. He wanted to be in the background, always. So that was one of the things that kind of blew my mind. But many, many, all through it, I've seen interviews of Jay from the past. And he's always been rapper Jay-Z. In the same way that before he was rapper Jay-Z, he was drug dealer Jay-Z.

8:20So there was always this mask and you never knew what he was thinking. And he would only give you what he wanted to give you. But you never really felt like you got to meet him. But I knew him in real life. I knew him. And here everyone gets to see this is really him. And the fact that it's as long as it is, at the end of it, you really know him. And a friend of his, Tata, who's been with him from the beginning, watched the whole thing, crying. Now he's been with Jay every step of the way since kids in school, every step. And he watched it and he said, I didn't know half of what he said. And this is someone who's with him every day of his life.

9:02Because he doesn't talk. He is a very private person. And he felt comfortable and opened up. I'll tell you some of the secrets of the way this was made. It wasn't a film shoot. When you go to a film shoot, there are cameras all around, and there's a big production with a lot of people, and then in the middle of all of this technical stuff, there's an actor or two in the middle doing some little thing. But to the hundred people on the set, that's insignificant. They're working on the technical aspect of it. I went to visit Robert Downey Jr. when they were making the movie Iron Man, and there were a thousand people working and he would go out on stage to do his thing and of the thousand people there, I think there was maybe one who even paid attention to what he was, he was totally insignificant in this giant machine.

9:57And I remember thinking, this doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. So the way this was made was, Jay knew we were making this, but in the space there were no cameras in the space couldn't see any cameras couldn't see any people we walk into the building together alone one guy comes over and puts mics on us and leaves and then we step out into this big room and we sit at this table and start having this conversation and within seven minutes you realize it's not a film shooting and we are two people in this big empty room it's dead silent and we're having a real conversation that goes on for hours and hours and hours over several days so the reason you haven't seen him like this before is because you couldn't make it the way you normally make things and have it feel like this no one came and said okay action let's go it wasn't like that i was gonna ask you know how did you create the conditions to get him that comfortable to open up in that way and yeah it's like it's felt exactly It felt like we're having this conversation.

11:07We're not on the PA. I'm really in the moment with you having this conversation. It's like that. It's a very intimate thing. And because it was silent, because there was nobody else in the space, you couldn't see anyone. All the people working were all dressed in black and had no shoes on. So everything was silent in the place. And they were all hidden and far away and in the shadows. My favorite line was, Jigga man is diesel when I lift the eight up. So diesel meaning strong, he's cock diesel. And then the eight referenced in a gun, a 38, he said diesel when I lift the eight up. But the second meaning of that, when Kobe and Shaq won the championship, there's a famous photo of Shaq holding him in his hand.

11:59Jigga man is diesel. They called Shaq, Shaq Diesel, because he was so strong. Sugar Man is Diesel when I lift the eight up. Kobe number was eight. Wow. So he had Kobe in his hand. So cool. Yeah. And so another element of the documentary that I really love is how you draw attention to the lyrics, not just on screen, but, you know, Jay-Z gives the context behind them. And despite rap containing more lyrics than most genres, if not all genres, I still think lyrics can often kind of go over the heads of some people. So was it really important for you both to have that element, you know, where he's breaking down his lyrics?

12:38That was the initial premise of the whole thing was showing Jay-Z through his lyrics. If you could read them, you could see the care, skill, difficulty, complexity in those words that if you're not reading them, you would never know it. You know, you might know the hook of the song and you might like the beat and you might sing along, but nobody knows what he's really saying except a tiny, tiny portion of the audience. So that was the, really the hope was to find a way to share what a great artist he is. And his art is lyrics. That's his, that's his art. Yeah. Daniel, how about? The word being on screen gives it objectivity.

13:27and so it removes the prejudice that lives in the idea of how we see rap. So what happens is that there's things in the idea and the concept of rap, how it lives in society and culture, that stops you from really listening to what these guys are doing. Like, I'm really seeing what I'm hearing and connecting to it. It allows you a bigger picture into what they're actually doing, is what I feel. I think one of the surprising elements for me is that seeing the lyrics on screen and you realise that nothing is stellar. Like, everything is very layered. I think we're constantly bombarded with this idea that our attentions are the worst they've ever been in human history, you know, our attention span is what I mean.

14:07You know, what made you confident that you could do a documentary in this style without much other footage, just Rick and Jay talking and still hold people's attentions? Was that ever something that you were nervous about? I think we're here to do stuff that hasn't been done before. I don't care what people do. I'm like, what's it matter? We're here to make art, no? Yeah. I think it's just like, what is it? Industry artistry? What side do you want? If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Don't watch it. If you like it, watch it. Like, there's that kind of like, why are we, why are we kind of internalising and having the judge in us?

14:43It will connect to who it needs to connect to. I feel like if you like Jay-Z, longer is better. I know if there's something I'm interested in, I want more, I don't want less. so maybe it's not for everybody but for the people it's not for they won't even like one episode but the people who like it maybe it's not enough yeah you know it can go on forever if you're really interested i wonder if there are any moments during the documentary is there anything in particular uh you know that you can maybe talk about that you're quite excited for audiences there's so much like 444 it's a great you know it's like at that point you had to listen to it back yeah that's one of the most incredible things is this is a song that's one of his most personal songs came out several years ago and i said let's listen to it and first thing he does is he reacts like oh you're gonna make me listen to this and then we listen to it and the first thing he says is i haven't listened to it since i recorded it never and it's the most personal song you've ever heard.

15:47But the fact that he could record something so personal and share it with the world, but it would be too much for he himself to listen to. He told a story also with his mother where he lyrics that he could never say to his mother, yet he puts it out on a record for the world to hear and the mother hears it as part of it. But we learn from this that his way of communicating, His only way of communicating is through lyrics. That's how we know him. That's how anyone knows him. That's how his family knows him, is through what he puts in the words. Because if it's not in the words, it's not what's happening with him.

16:25And he won't say it. Man, I can't believe I wrote that. So, again, I was 27, but still early in my career. Yeah. Second album. And you're saying that as a person, you wouldn't have said these things. No, not a chance. Not a chance. That's crazy. And I was saying also that the first time, you know, hearing this would be on record, it wasn't like it was a heads up either. It wasn't like some, let me sit down. This is what I'm saying. Like 444 was way different. When I wrote that smile about my mom, it was a conversation. Like, hey, this is, listen to this. the first time, my first time hearing it, she was like, no, that's my story to tell.

17:17And I was like, yeah, but, you know, I mean, mentor you through this process. And it was like a real conversation until like maybe a month later she came to L.A. and she had written that poem on the plane. And she came like, listen to this. And it was like, it was like her saying yes and the blessings and like the completion of a real healthy conversation about speaking about certain things, you know? This was unhealthy. It was just, like you said, it was therapy for me, but it wasn't all the way fair to people. Let's talk about what's going on in your head to allow this to come out in your art.

17:59Even that is radical. Yes, exactly. These are the words not to be said, and you're laying it out. This was the only place, was my only outlet for to release these, you know, you can hear the shame and guilt and all of these verses. I say later on, in more than one way, cocaine numbs the brain. Like, you start numbing yourself to things that you would never do. Yes. Like, you start losing yourself in that. Like, it's always like, I always say it's two sides of substance abuse. You know, people get addicted to that feeling and adrenaline to being hustlers and being in that light that like, you know, you start overlooking things.

18:44You have to you have to compartmentalize. Absolutely. To be able to do it. To be able to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. You know, I mean, you have to like make these versions of yourself. You have to splinter off into all these little versions to justify what you're doing. Say, I'm going to do that, but I'm not going to do this. I'll sell drugs to this person, but I won't sell it to a pregnant woman. But you end up living in a really small box. Yeah. And I could hear just dealing with that. Like dealing with that and dealing with it in a real, like in a real way. In a real way, in a poetic way. You feel the emotion in it.

19:22And in the context of someone who you hear bragging on records, this is shocking. Right. It's shocking. it was always the moment and that's what i believe was the last song on album like when the last song came in where i was super introspective even on the first album the last song is regrets when i was young you used to hold me the rapper saying you used to hold me you told me i was another song to my mom when i was young you used to hold me told me i was the best everything only thing i want is only that i could grab on order to survive had to learn to live with regrets Again, this compartmentalization of like, I had to put away those feelings.

20:05I couldn't deal with regret and mistakes. You got to keep going. Can't dwell on it. Oh, man, I did that. Keep going. And once you start doing that, obviously you're burying your feelings and burying those feelings. They're not going anywhere. No. They're there. I wonder, maybe you have kind of touched on it a little bit with your last answer around, you know, artistry or industry. What side are you on? Is there any advice that you would give to emerging artists in film or music? You know, what qualities do you think are needed today to be a trailblazer in a time where, you know, we live in an attention economy where everyone is competing for eyeballs?

20:47So what is important for you to perhaps say to emerging artists? I think it's a bit of a show. You're doing it to express or you're doing it to impress. So if you're doing it to impress, then go on and you're going to be, you know, running about and trying to go these exact going, well, I don't think so. These people that are non-artistic telling you about your art. And then you're like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, what? Don't make sense to me. And I think that like what he was talking about, I don't think he's like trying to be like, just, just let out. I had stuff I wanted to express. And that was my, my language of doing it.

21:20that was with the tools that I had available. And then when I got more tools, I'd put it in different ways. But it's like the fullness of the expression, just do it, just let it out. And don't worry about the outcome. It's easier said than done, but it's easier said than done. Yeah, I would say the same. I would say make it totally personal, make your favorite thing. You're the audience. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. If you get a lot of criticism, that's fine. If people hate it, that's fine. And it's actually better if people hate it than if they don't care about it. So if you make something that warrants some energetic reaction, good or bad, that's better than mediocrity.

22:03So go hard. Whatever you do, take it as far as you possibly can and see what happens. Yeah. Well, this one is, you know, just for me because I always feel like I can, I get to know people sometimes through the music that they like. And, you know, I always think what we gravitate to, what we essentially vibrate to speaks volumes. So, you know, out of curiosity, you know, what is some of your favorite Jay-Z songs?

22:33Okay, what's a great moment, yeah, in this, right, is when he said he figured out, when he did Halt Not Left, and figured out how to like combine the real story of what he's been through and melodies and he like opened that door and then like i listened to that album the other day yeah volume three and i think i just love volume three just how he sonically grew and it was just like yeah and i i think that album means a lot yeah okay well you're right maybe it's an album maybe song is too difficult no i'll say there's just there's an the opening song on the j electronica album i don't know what it's called but it starts with jay rapping and he's just on fire i can't believe we didn't include it now that i think about it i can't believe we didn't include it in the series so that's the opening song on the jay electronica opening song the jay electronica and it's weird because jay electronica's album and the first thing you hear is jay-z and it's insane so that's the first thing that comes to mind is like the jay-z that i love so for all of us who don't know that i don't know i'm not sure if i know that one or maybe.

23:34But anyway, we should check that out. Okay, so is this a creative venture between the two of you that we can expect more from perhaps? Hope so. Yeah. Very good. Okay, well, we look forward to that. And thank you again for making this wonderful documentary.

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