Jerrod Carmichael

31:25And we would go on Wednesday nights playing would be disruptive by her call to get in the car, go to church, seven o 'clock prayer meeting, and the kids would go downstairs. And sometimes I would go upstairs and argue with the adults. And once I was there, it was fun. I had fun even being bored. And I like to sing, so even singing him was kind of fun to me.

31:55And those discussions, those arguments were always a reason to go. I found a reason to go and to like it. And I was active and I wanted to do more at church. I even joined like the youth missionaries and I wanted to do certain like outreach things and have productions and things that would keep kids interested and you know, I was a kid myself but I just wanted to do things that my very conservative minister shunned and shut down and so I felt really stifled by the church even in the perspective to start a feeling really narrow. And I still believe in God. And I just believed in a more dynamic guide.

32:39And I believed in miracles like I was like, okay, well the Bible talks about miracles. I know you have to be open to receiving it. So all right, if people can walk on water and there can be fishes and loaves, then you know, I I found little miracles in my own life when I was in tomb. I still do. And I am religious in that way. I do seek God and I try to find God because I know I'm at my best when I have Him. And my version of Him is more interior than it was in my childhood, but it's still very, I can't shake Him. And so I've stopped fighting. And I accept God in a way that's not how my mother views guide or how the church I grew up in views guide but not a wrathful God not a wrathful God not an exterior God not not a man in the sky it's just a very personal got the personal Jesus how much do you think your life in church impacted who you are today Oh, in so many ways, even aside from religion, just the performance, the church teaches you a lot about performance.

33:59One, how to get people excited, how to keep people's attention. Oh, there's a lot of danger in church. There's a lot of, you know, there's ways to be provocative, of, you know, when arguing even just like being in a Southern black Baptist church and going up and talking about Malcolm X and like talking about the, like even in an environment like that, it's like seen as radical or like finding ways to say curse words. It's just like, it affected me as a performer. My father teaching me how to act like I was feeling the spirit when leading a song and jumping up and down and like how people got excited and taking the mic out of the stand and walking up and down the aisles like I would walk into the court almost popped and like sometimes the the bottom would separate and I would just be singing like I could like or singing without a mic because I had you know I'd gone beyond the limit my church got a wireless mic because of me I was responsible for them getting a wireless microphone.

35:07It's like the K -protein like James Brown's character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not Macyo, what's my man's name? He comes and puts the cake in high. I can't do it no more, but like, do you mean Leonard? Something like is that Joey? Yeah, I can't remember what is. I can't remember his name. But exactly, exactly. Like my dad, being from the era of performance, really, and still a lot of those things in me. And yeah, you learn a lot. You learn the minister, you know, and you can't call it a performance. That's always interesting too, because my mom would say stuff like, oh, I thought you were feeling a spirit and I'm like, I was 11, like really?

35:43But, you know, but, but it just meant I was good at it. And ministers perform and you have to put emphasis on certain things and sometimes say things that maybe you question, but you have to sell it and you have to find emotion in things and find the best find emotion in their delivery. And I do believe that they believe what they're saying and they find a pocket. my uncle William was such a good order. I would go to church. It's a history, it's just to hear him speak. And passion is important to not have people yawning and just asleep in their seat. Perspective is important. So like it's an interesting show.

36:26I like church because it's a very interesting show. I needed, I was talking about those Sunday services that we went to. I missed those. We went incredible. Basically every Sunday for a year. Because the music was the best part. So it was like my favorite part, a church for like an hour, an hour and a half, my favorite part outside. Outside, even inside in the dome, in the room was so great. Like the sound and bringing, you know, a horn section and drums in and then sometimes you'd say amid the choir and sometimes they were in a circle in the middle and sometimes we're on a mountain top and sometimes we're in a field and it was just the greatest thing ever and I got to send yay songs from my childhood like you know how excellent was like a song we sang in church and now they're doing it in this magical place and I brought my mom to Coachella you know to hear It was amazing.

37:32It was amazing. I cried in church for the first time in years at those Sunday services. That was very, very religious. It was a very truly religious experience. It was for him too. It was everything. So important for him. Anytime you get up, do you record the set? Yes. Now. and do you listen back or not? Some sets, some sets I do, some sets I send to a couple friends for thoughts. I can listen back now. I couldn't before when I was more of a character on stage. I couldn't, I couldn't stand to hear it. I realized that now before I thought I was being lazy or I thought I was being, I thought it was just something I couldn't do, go back and listen to myself.

38:30Oh, I don't do that. But it was because I recognize the falseness in a lot of it. And that's hard to hear. It's hard to watch. It's hard to hear. If you listen back now, are you ever surprised by what you hear? Yes. I'm surprised at what I say sometimes. I'm surprised by stories. I recall sometimes I tell a story for the first time on stage. I'm like, I'll have never said that to anyone before. And if I'm feeling really free with a focus, you know, it is this balance between... There is work to get there, but I can let go. If I've done the work I can let go and I'll find stuff all the time. That's why the performances are unique because I am having realizations on stage at my best.

39:30Right, my freest, I should say. It is happening.

39:38Yeah, yeah, it makes me let now if I laugh, it's true. It's not part of the act. I'll go, oh, well, that's funny. I realize something might be kind of funny as I'm saying it.

39:54How was the preparation for Nathaniel different than the preparation for eight? Eight was more traditional. Eight was me on the road. I never did the road a lot because I always make specials for television. Like, and in many ways, I was always trying to give a unique performance, like each time, and offer something I always knew I wanted to offer something. And as a young comedian, I was trying to figure out what that was, and I thought it was my best jokes. and something changed in between tapings of eight because the first set I did the show was a good show. Some riffing with the audience and some very new moments.

40:48I had that even in my first special, like there was a completely different set between tapings of my first special. I was freer in the second one. And I know that it's a part of me that I should capture, you know, it's something that I can do. So without me being a little free of there, it's not the best show. But eight, I'd done the traditional set. I remember my brother coming in saying, I was great, you're playing with house money now. I remember both coming upstairs and saying, And we basically got it. It was like, really you got it. We got the special. And I felt like there was something else I wanted to give.

41:36Again, I'm young and I don't know how to do that. I'm trying to figure out how to do it. But I know we got a second special in an hour. And I'm going to figure it out. And I was at the Masonic Temple in New York on 23rd Street. And I'm in this room, with this long table and a giant gold statue of George Washington. And at the end of the long table is a bottle of Makers Mark that I brought upstairs for inspiration. And I've been drinking a little bit and then drinking a little bit more and just, you know, a called Ari and I was like, you know, like, man, you know, just trying to pour my heart out, trying to be vulnerable, just trying, just trying, like, talking to Ari because I can always be true with him and I can always like be my total self with him unapologetically.

42:40I can say the wrong things to him. And I trust him with my life. And so I called him and I'm like, by this point, I'm already slurring. And I've never been drunk before. I didn't have my first drink until my mid 20s. And at this time, are you drinking to get drunk? Are you just drinking? I'm drinking because I want to give more and this will open me up a little bit. And, and, and, and, you want to do something different than you did before. And, and yes, to get drunk, but I had never been drunk before. So you don't know what you're, so I don't really know what it's your, your, your, your moving into the unknown.

43:21I'm moving into the unknown and I don't know how much I'm drinking. I, I don't, yeah, if you do, if you're not a regular drinker, I'm just, what is it? I'm just tossing them back. I'm just, I'm tossing them back. Like, like, my, my family has a high tolerance level. I've learned. And so I'm just doing shots of whiskey, straight, column friends, trying to cry, trying to pour something into the regular set. Not thinking, like, change the words, like change my attention, change the words, these are things I've learned, things I've learned in time. But I'm just thinking, I want to pour my heart out.

44:05I want to give them everything this taping. I got the words, I give something beyond words, derived, that's what I'm telling myself. And by the time they came to get me to go down on stairs, I don't know what hit me. I don't remember much, I just kind of, I remember stepping foot on stage, we were in the round, So it's all a little weird and dreamy. Anyway, I'm in these long weird halls and I it's a weird route to the stage and it's all walking to this room and everyone's dressed up and they're in suits and it's like, you know, they're plotting for me and I remember stepping on stage and I don't remember how I started the show.

44:55I don't remember. I don't remember the opening line. I don't know if that's the show that we got. Are we gonna be, no, I think that was from the first one. We might have got the intro from the first one because that was part of the plan. But I don't remember much about that show. I was told that I started somewhere maybe 20 minutes and repeating jokes from the same set. From the same set. You said within the 20 minutes before, I started kind of going back and repeating things. And then the first time it happened, you know, Bo loves to tell stories like at the monitors and is like, he catches it first.

45:38You know, by the second time it happens, he looks over the exacts from HBO, 824 or the bear. And they start looking at each other. A little strange like, did he already say that? By the third time, everyone's like, okay, what the fuck? Everyone's like, what is happening? And I don't really know what's happening. I have like flashes from that sit, but I remember feeling like I was on stage pleading, but I don't know about what. And I'm just saying things and saying things and all of a sudden I remember hearing Bowls voice from the voice of God, like just like talking to me. Basically saying, rap it up.

46:20I've been on stage for far longer than an hour. And I'm like just going and it's getting weird and Bo is calling me off stage. So at some point I finally just in the show I get I wrap it up. I go and like collapse in the dressing room. And Bo loves to say that he says to Bill Chase and exite who's since retired at HBO. He says, hey, Bill, it was a pleasure working with you and Bill just laughed. after he went, huh, and walked out. And there was some article and some guy wrote about, it being the weirdest taping ever. And you would think, I got so lucky, because some of it, you would think you'd have to throw it out, but I think we used maybe 10, 15 minutes of it, of that set just because it was is highly emotional or at least read like that on camera for a stretch.

47:19Some of it's just totally unusable and me and both say that someday we're going to get drunk and watch it. But it was me trying. I was really trying. And then I took time off to grow up, I think. I grew a lot in the time that I just stopped doing comedy. I would try and do a show here there. A few like eventful shows, sometimes like a charity event. I remember getting booed at the Greek theater at the start of the Me Too movement. Like doing some welfare old charity show. And you know, I'm doing sets sporadically. And then I just stopped. And then Trump happened and Trump kind of killed comedy for me because just no one was one year than him.

48:13And what was the point? And he was the greatest current event comic. Asked the other thing, like Trump was the best at it. And I'm not even saying that I had personal change because of that, but I'm saying that it coincided with this happening. So like I felt no urge to go up. And I'm gonna say something funnier about the world than the president? No, it was impossible. So, and with less consequence, I would say it with less consequence. So, but I came out to my friends at this time, that time came out to my family and started doing free associate of therapy, reading a lot, started reading more and started working in a different way than I had before.

49:11Writing in a way that I'd never written. I was never really a writer. I don't think I became a writer during that time. And I tried to grow, tried to become more open, still trying. So I don't want to say like I nailed it, but trying, just trying. And then I had a reason to do standup again. And then I had something to say.

49:50And in a new way to say it, you know, because do you remember the first time you got back up after that? Like after the experience of you did eight, You take time off, you're reading, you're going inside. What's it like getting up for the first time? Were you already a different person than you were before? Yeah, yeah, I felt it and I was more... I felt prepared to say things that I'd never said before. I felt energized to say it. And the first time I got up, I went to the comedy store, And I had so much to say and I was, it was like baby legs. I didn't know how to run with it yet. And I was in that room and I relied on old tricks trying to find a punch line, not living in the moment.

50:50And sometimes it's not the space. I've learned that too. Like I've learned to just what space is I can truly work in and what I can't, that works for me now. And sometimes my ego would lead me to the clubs and I had to check that and check that intention. And so I went up at the store and it was a little rough

51:20But I was saying things I hadn't said before, but just in a way that resembled my old style. So, you know, that was a quick death, because Bo came and watched me one night, and he was like, man, you know, like, it was just a little rough, he was very honest with me. And then one night, I remember we left dinner in the valley and then I was like, I should go do a set. I just felt I felt that I wanted to do it and I went by flappers me and him. And I had an idea of what I wanted to talk about. And Bo just was like, it was like a simple goal of just do something, say something that they'll remember.

52:17Just leave the audience with a memory. And I went on stage and I sat down and I talked about not wanting to go home for Christmas. I was afraid to go home but just come out to my family. Didn't go great. A lot of shame, a lot of fear. was keeping me away from home. It was a good boy that always went home. Birthdays and Christmas and every holiday, especially once I could afford to. And I wasn't going home for Christmas the first time I ever didn't go home for Christmas. And I talked about it. And after that set, the ball was like, oh, a week of film. Like a very soon. It was a very, very soon.

53:09And after the first set at the store, he thought he was like, you're gonna have to just go on the road for a year and figure this out. And then after that set, something clicked, I wasn't afraid to live in the emotional stage. And I was, I had the patience for a story. I had the patience and I had the need to share it. And something clicked in that set, um, um, and, and then we, that was in December of 2021. And then we filmed Rathaneu in February, 2022. Wow. Yeah. So right after Valentine's Day, it was between Christmas and Valentine's Day. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It was like a really fast, I was there emotionally.

54:06I was ready for a change. And then the technical part came once I was free enough to tell the truth. Yeah, it's amazing of your three specials. The growth and change between each of them is insane. It's like they're three different people. Yeah, yeah. No, I try to learn. I do want to learn. One creatively, I always want to give something different and throw out the last thing. In some ways, even try to rebel against it. Like, okay, like, well, where was that wrong? And where do I disagree with this?

54:53But if I'm true to how I change as a person and I capture that, you know, it's lightning, but if you can capture that, Watching someone grow is interesting. Yeah, you know, it's a diary entry. It's a real moment in time. If the person's interesting and you happen to be, and I first, eight was the first thing that I saw of yours, and it completely blew my mind because it was unlike any comedy stand -up comedy, especially I'd ever seen before. And it's hard to do that because comedy, I mean, if you think of Stand Up Comedy Specials, it's a pretty narrow genre. Yeah. I mean, different clean jokes, dirty jokes, big stage, small stage.

55:44Yeah, yeah. But it's always, and now here he is, so and so, and everybody applauds, and then the curtains open, and the star comes out on stage, and they tell the first joke. Yeah. and that didn't happen. Right from the beginning right from the opening it's this is strange because you don't you don't get I don't remember if there was any kind of introduction on the video but in the perception was You're somebody sitting alone in a room and then you're on stage in a close -up saying something very personal that doesn't seem like it's a joke. And we don't even know that there's an odd one. I say you're on stage, we don't know that yet and we don't see any audience or hear any audience and it's just strange.

56:40It's like we've never seen anything like this before and it felt right immediately if So whatever this is, it's interesting and it's personal. And I wanted to know more right away. It's like it opened a possibility in my mind that I didn't know it could be like this. Right out of the box. So I love it. And I've showed it so many people, even in meetings as an example of doing something radical. It's like, look at how this starts. Well, it's funny because that was, it's all working backward from what's true. And I'm so thankful to be able to work with Bo, one is a genius. And you meet Bo. Me and Bo met, like an agent tried to introduce us at some point when he would visit L .A.

57:40when I first moved to LA. And, you know, we never really became friends until,

57:50right before my first special. And, you know, we met, like I saw him in a movie theater and complimented Zach Stone because he had a show because Zach Stone was gonna be famous, and I love that show. And I ran up on them just even just as a fan just Hey man, I love your show. It was great. Just wanted to say hi. Whatever. Then he hit me later like on Twitter when I said Twitter and then we became friends. It pretty immediately got very close because I think he's the friend I was I've been looking for a long time, someone of, we're from, we're so different, but similar circumstances, both kind of found ourselves or found something that worked and became pretty successful, pretty young and pretty quickly, and kind of lived our lives the same, like in search of experiences and we always joke that we live.

59:11There was this movie called Blink Check and it was about a kid who got a million dollars like somebody hit his bike and gave him a blank check and he filled it in for a million dollars. And just obviously went crazy. And that's how we live. Like when we were just at like universal studios it like, you know, 10 pm on a Tuesday, like for no reason. And he understood me and I just trusted him. You know, I still trust him, but it's so much like with my life, you know, I said about are as well, but both someone who I say everything to and give everything to and so when we're talking about eight at first, I wanted him to direct and he said, no, it was the first thing he directed.

1:00:15And I said, you should direct it. He was like, no, he said, you should to get Steve McQueen a direct, right? And just like throwing a lot out there. I hadn't even really seen anything of Steve McQueen I watched them obviously is incredible. I'm like fine, I take a meeting with Steve McQueen. He says, first he says, no, I asked him, I was like, will you direct my special? He's like, he's like, no, I'm not interested in that. And then I came back to Boa, I was like, Steve McQueen said, no, you gotta do it. And then he said, yes. Steve later said yes and my ego wants to say that. I don't need to say that, but I want to say it because he, you know, he saw him up.

1:00:53He saw him up stand up. It was like, keep me down, but it would have been something else. I really want it both to do it. Because Boeing just stood me and he understood, like we kind of just trimmed the fact that things that weren't necessary to me. Again, it's for, it's just Taylor made to me and where I was at the time as a performer and not being, again, I've always wanted to make specials for television. The first one was Spike. Didn't quite come. I wasn't bold enough to have a complete vision of it. And I didn't know how to implement it. And so it was like, there's some good that came out of it, but it was sort of a botched collaboration.

1:01:32I didn't want to do that again. And Bull just understood. Like, at that point, just the intro didn't make any sense. It didn't make any sense for me. And we talked about things like that, not even viewing them as radical, just viewing them as true. It was just true. And we talked about all these things and had, you know, and again, he's just very, very good and knows how to create an experience. And I am an excited and willing participant in that and you know, we make really good stuff together because of that. Absolutely. And it's interesting too, because it's, it seemed, I don't know him well.

1:02:15You brought him out to dinner that's one time before I knew who he was. Yeah. And I remember our whole dinner. He didn't, I don't think he said one word. No, no, no, no, no, he'll listen. I got a big mouth that I'm just like, I was like, no, no, no. And but it was like, especially in a new situation, it'll be. And I feel like his sense of humor in your sense of humor seem really different. Yeah. Like his comedy and your comedy are really different, both really funny, but not in the same lane at all. Yeah, yeah.

1:02:54And it's funny because we make each other laugh a lot. Maybe that's why though. Maybe if it was, if you were more similar, it wouldn't be as funny. Yeah, we have just such different perspectives on life.

1:03:13We like to joke that even our race, like me being black, him being white, is the least of our differences. It's like who we are fundamentally as people is so different and I think we both like to listen to each other and I learn a lot from both. And I think he takes some things from me in how I've chosen to live life. And I think we compliment each other well and work. Even to the point, I think he outpaced me in some ways in eight where I think from what he brought to it, he was operating at a more fluent level than I was at the time. I was trying. I'm drunk in the back. I'm trying to figure that out.

1:04:12And so, you know, for Rathanya, I came more prepared. I believe, more prepared to be open to give more myself to be directed without ego, with true collaboration. Yeah, I was ready then in a way that I wasn't in eight. And our friendship had grown accordingly, even after eight. One of the reasons me and Boa are so close is because even after that hot, hot taping, no one called me out on it. Because it was a little embarrassing and would have been embarrassing. It's not like it was a consistent problem or required intervention. but no one, no one, am I like, no one who was there? But you were doing an experiment.

1:05:17And you were, as you said, as was said to you, you were playing with house money. You already had what you needed, and now you were looking for where, where can we go further? True, but I still did. I did something that was bold, if not dangerous, right? But even just the fact that no one, I even acknowledged it. I won't even say, call me out. No one else acknowledged the, like the oddness of that night. And I woke up the next morning, and I remember just, obviously, so hungover, and I did, oh, hello on Broadway. I had to be on Broadway that day. Like, John Mulaney and Nick Krohl show, I was like, I guessed.

1:06:01So, like, I'm hungover for me. And I didn't see both that whole day, But then we talked, he was on the plane, he was going back to LA, and I started already feeling the need to kind of apologize and try and like control what it happened and saying, oh man, I hit a wall and he was like, I'm gonna stop you right there. I don't need the spin, because I was gonna, I had a cold and I was, I was drinking a little bit, but it was also the night quilt. You know, like, like trying to blame medicine and he's like, they don't, don't spin it for me. And I loved being called out. I didn't like it in the moment, but I really appreciated it because he's honest with me and is always been.

1:06:51Thank you for sticking up with HBO, how that come to be. HBO was, I was really precious about being on TV. I was really precious about my first time and for a minute I thought I wanted to do Letterman, you know, before Letterman retired and I didn't want it. I would get offers from certain shows and like Lopez tonight and these things and I just wanted it to be something else. A very, very specific about what I wanted my set to be on television. It's a miracle being on TV's miracle, you know, and that was a Jerry Lewis quote He's like I don't call it TV. I'll call it television because it's a miracle and and I felt I feel that way it is a miracle um and and so you know Just kind of being a little snobbish about it.

1:07:54I waited. I wanted HBO You know, I felt like Netflix I remember having a dinner and one of my friends, or someone I worked with before, it gone to work at Netflix. And I think this is even before Robbie Probe got there, who I knew from Montreal. And Netflix wanted to do a special with me, but HBO just seemed more selective. It just seemed like a more specific pool. And I liked that. I liked that there weren't a lot, I just appreciated the curation, or at least by limited number, the feeling of curation. And I wanted that. And they had a deal with funnier dye and to do a handful of specials. And I got one of those.

1:08:54And so, you know,

1:08:59That was it. That was like Nina came to see me in LA. She had a show that went horribly because I didn't like the idea of auditioning for anything and just being rebellious artists who was like trying new stuff and riffing and whatever. And then she came to see another set that was more focused and yeah, I got the special. And I think I've maintained a relationship with them by trying new things. I'm very thankful for that partnership. I'm thankful for Nina and I've been working with Amy and Casey and everyone there. It's been pretty open to my ideas, which is all you can ask for, because you're still asking for money to make a thing.

1:09:49And it is a gamble, and especially as my work gets more and more personal, because it's starting with like, all right, a special would spike Lee. Great, right? But then it's another thing to say, hey, can I ask for money to just take some cameras to North Carolina and shoot something with my family? It's like, what are you doing? And my work started getting more personal. And a lot of my work, even when I wasn't doing stand -up, I've made some documentaries with HBO that was me digging, just excavating my past, trying to grow, trying to figure things out, figuring out with cameras, a lot of what I'm doing now started.

1:10:27Then with Nina trusting me, with HBO trust me, with money to go make something. So it's been a good relationship. It's been really, really healthy. And I try and give them my best. I try and give them everything. Like I am like getting, I'm putting everything, like my work there, I'm really, really proud of. I'm really, really proud. And it's been a lot. And I've experimented with other comedians and with myself and made stuff that excites me, you know, and I'm, yeah, yeah. How did you decide to sit for Othaniel? I was telling stories and it made sense and Cosby set and it started making sense.

1:11:12Some of his decisions started making sense to me as I got more personal.

1:11:19And not sitting on a stool, I wasn't trying to be cool.

1:11:25Me and Bob has a pejorative that he throws at me when I slip back into old habits. He says, you're out there swagging out. Stop swagging out of it. And it allows me to feel comfortable, but still alert. And it just felt right. I sat down and I was like, oh, This is how I want to tell stories. Did that happen between that first show that boat? So the first show, Bo saw, coming back was like, I was standing up at the comedy store a million miles away. Yeah, and the next one, you're closer. Are you sitting yet or not yet? The next one I set, the next one at flappers I set, and that changed a lot.

1:12:12Wow. It changed a lot. Just funny how something as simple as deciding to sit or stand changes things. Yeah, yeah It's all but it's a lot of things that pushed me into that cheer like like the weight of every story and what I needed to say and Just it all it all made sense it all made sense all the the influence all of it. It just it started making sense I feel like the next best you're gonna be laying on the foot on the stage I'll be like you, I'll be like you, barefoot, laid out.

1:12:49You're describing yourself to me as a comedian on television more than a stand -up comedian giving live shows. I mean, you don't go on tour, you rarely go on tour, you don't want to go on tour, that's not your, you're not aspiring to go on tour, you're aspiring to make television. Yeah, yeah, because it just makes sense for what I want to offer. I want to offer a unique experience like every time. And I don't, if I toured it, ensure I could do it for money, but it would affect the product, and I think Chappelle does a great job of being a tour in comedian but keeping his television appearances unique and organic.

1:13:48And I do feel similar to him in that way. And that's different from how Chris rock operates in Chris always, he tells me, you know, like, like, oh, this wouldn't work on tour. Like, you know, just about my set and he's right. In many ways, I could, but it wouldn't be built into it, especially when I do a lot of dates or a lot of consecutive shows, they are just unique in their own way. And you're working through the ideas. And then once they work through, there's nothing left to examine. Yes. So it's more about the idea than I'm crafting a feeling or being in touch with a feeling more than I'm crafting a joke or finding the punchline.

1:14:36And so it just, it doesn't quite work in that way on tour. And I would change for audiences in a way that I think would compromise what makes it unique on television. That could change. I'm not saying that like that's permanent. There may be an inter - I'm leaving room for that. I'm not saying. I'll never go on tour. I may be inspired to do that, but as of now, for what I want to make, I have to work, and I do a lot of shows to work, but the, you know, even when I do shows, it's a different thing every time, it's a different flyer every time, a different name, and a different thing that I'm focused on, and that's the show, and that's that show, and I have to let that be that show, and I have to move on.

1:15:29What was the comedy that you remember watching on television growing up? Comic view. Comic view every night, 10 o 'clock VT. Some deaf comedy jam. Bill Cosby himself, Richard prior live on the Sunset Strip, then live in concert. Kings of comedy. Tommy Davidson, Ellen and Philly.

1:16:03Um, yeah, yeah. Uh, and there are people that I just grew up loving Don DC Curry, subject the entertainer. Um, was comedy your favorite thing to see on TV? Yes, yes, shows. Um, me and my mom have similar tastes and sitcoms like, like, like the Cosby Show and everybody loves Raymond and stuff like that. We like more serious comedy, if that makes sense, like things that aren't too silly or absurd. We laughed at things that probably weren't comedies. Probably the clearest explanation of my sense of humor is that I think the movie, Menace to Society, is funnier than the parody movie, don't be a menace in self -central while drinking your juice in the hood, which takes elements of that.

1:16:58But like, I think that things played real in reality is funnier than, you know, telling, like, sometimes people are intentionally funny, you know, and I can be intentionally funny, but I just think, you know, life plays out funnier. Do you laugh a lot in life all the time? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I love. And before Roth Annual, I was way funnier in my real life. The, I had been on stage because it was like filtered and I was trying to be provocative in certain ways. And so, and I knew for the show that I would have to sacrifice certain laughs for certain points. And I was okay with that, but I was, I do laugh a lot in my friends are very, very funny.

1:17:49But do you laugh a lot of things that might not be funny?

1:17:55Yeah, the absurdity of certain things, but also just funny things. And I watch things. Me and Bo love watching, like roast me, which is this all -deaf digital show that has just a bunch of dudes in a room just roasting each other and it's so funny. You know, it's just funny. I love that.

1:18:21But honestly, my tolerance for that is, and not the sound pretentious, like my tolerance. But I stop laughing when I can see you trying to tell me a joke. Although I consume a high volume of comedy, a lot of it is critical when I watch a lot of it is just like seeing the strings and, and, and, you know, uh, yeah, yeah, seeing the strings a lot. And, you know, it just has to be tough. To me, it has to be tied to some type of consequence to define for it to be funny to me, like consequence free humor, Especially if the humor is alluding to being dangerous. If that danger isn't real in some way and you can't feel it, then it just starts to lose it for me.

1:19:21So even in sitcom, everybody loves Raymond, you could tell it's just rooted in some reality of a dynamic and that's funnier than a space comedy. For me, is comedy about things not making sense?

1:19:41Sometimes, sometimes it's, I love things that lead to a lot of questions. What does that mean? I love that.

1:19:58Sometimes it's about tension, sometimes it's about saying things and taking some leap. It's different ways. Sometimes it's about making sense of things. So, yeah. When you did Rothani, do you think of it? And so I'll ask it in the most provocative way. Do you think of it as stand -up comedy?

1:20:27Yes. Yes. I used to get or early on in it, I would get angry with any criticism that it was something else. Or I looked at it being called something else as a dismissal because of course it is. It's a person on a stage for an hour or whatever amount of time speaking. It is a one -man show. There are elements probably of a traditional one -man show that I incorporate, but it's still the art form. And I think, look, I want to contribute to it. I want it to grow and I want it to not be defined so narrowly. And I do it as I see it. So yeah, it is. for sure, for sure. I think me and a lot of stand -up comedians do different things.

1:21:39I think that's okay, you know, but it is stand -up. I feel like the label just, to me the labels just make it smaller. It's like you can use it to organize a genre. for some reason I think of it as the label making it smaller. Like, is it...

1:22:15It's like if a comedian gets on stage and does an hour and doesn't tell any jokes and nobody laughs, is it stand -up comedy?

1:22:29I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. No, I don't know. The side of it is though, if you take the label away, was that a compelling performance? And do you want to see that? Are you excited by it? Do you like the different, you know, the fact that it's different? And then the laughs may come. I mean, it's like, what's interesting about the dice album, the day the laughter died, is that like, is that it, what is it? And what it is in the room is different than what it is on record. the tension of the people not like it's funny now it's so fun it's part of the show so he gets credits for playing that show in a way that's interesting you captured an interesting funny thing it is funny yeah just it they're they're they're multiple ways in and it shouldn't be the same thing over and over you know can't be it can't be not I die, it will die.

1:23:24And I see stand up comedy sometimes. And I mean, not the sound gross, but it just seems dead sometimes. I'm like, it just feels so dead. And I don't wanna shoot it. I wanna like, I wanna feel alive. And I want the art form to be alive. When did you originally fall in love with reading?

1:23:53Mr. Nairi, my eighth grade teacher, who I didn't want because he was loud. And seventh grade, he had the classroom next door to me and I didn't want him. I was like, anybody but him. Of course I get him. I asked my mom about, could switch teachers, didn't want anything to do with it. Like anything that starts like that, of course, he's a teacher that changed my life. And got me to read the autobiography of Malcolm X, which is huge. and two newspaper articles every day. If that was a requirement for his class, you had to read and be informed. And two things that you, not special interest, not you're, you know, with the boys, read from the sports section or anything, like something that you didn't know anything about.

1:24:41And so like, you know, the finance section or some the world section. Find something interesting. Find something interesting. Read two articles, you had to write about it every day. And so that began me reading, just like the habit of reading. And it's some, you know, a habit that I picked up often on the years when I was probably only reading Wikipedia page entries. And but then, you know, later in life, for even more recently, sworking with Scott Root and own something. And he sent me a novel and, I had never really read fiction.

1:25:35And that picked up, like it picked up again, I was like very, very interested in reading. And then I, I bought the George Saunders book, Swim in the Pond in the Rain, just with a collection of Russian short stories. And that changed storytelling for me. Like that was huge for me. It's a great class and a book. And it's just incredible. And I'd never told stories before then. And like a lot of changes in my life, therapy and that book. And it's one of the things that really pushed me to understand stories and tell them.

1:26:21And when was that? Recently, a couple years ago. It's far a story tell. But I've been reading and that book was just one that I grabbed. And then that changed the direction of the types of books that I wanted to read.

1:26:38And now my boyfriend is a writer and I mean he reads so much and I feel so far behind and it's exciting because he has me reading things that I never would have picked up and things that excite me and sometimes we read together and sometimes he reads to me and it's um uh uh it's been very important to me. The George Sanders story is interesting in that you didn't read it looking for you didn't read it looking for information to help your work you just randomly picked it up You read it and it changed your whole approach to what you do completely completely I didn't know what the requirement of a story was like what it what what do people look for and I usually didn't tell them I would give You know facts about an event, but then mostly commentary.

1:27:46Oh, I would give commentary my whole life is just like Fight happened at school. This is where I was You know, this half of it, but just like that told me, you know, what to look for and where you could look and let a story can come in different forms and that it's not always like neat and semi -linked to that book. For sure. I love to see that. I love it. And it's a, he's released another book since then, but it's the book before his most recent one. And it's incredible. And he gives lessons on the story in the book. So it's a lot of like Tolstoy, Tolstoy, or just all these Russian authors. I think they're seven.

1:28:35And he's a teacher, Syracuse, a professor in Syracuse. And he basically gives a class in the book. And I'm so thankful for it. Even without the collection of the stories themselves, even because at first I wasn't even reading his lessons on it. I was just re - it was a story. I was just used to read the stories and it just game -changing for me. That sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. Do you um you think you're more inspired by comedy or music or movies or reading or something else.

1:29:19I get really obsessed with the thing and it kind of becomes all I can talk about a reference and it could be it's different things sometimes it centered on a person like recently it was all things JFK just obsessed with what started that I've always kind of had an obsession with them and like my boyfriend really put me put into context like the importance of Camelot or the idea of JFK culture now and how it all kind of began with like you know the idea of him and Jackie and You know our cultural obsession with his life and how it was documented and how you know how it ended and then the secrets and how you know all those things coming out So you kind of learn about a person and I was always obsessed with his in many ways like the duality of him like him and Martin Luther King just obsessed as much with the the secrets of their lives and the affairs and You know JFK's pills or Martin Luther King's suicide attempts and these things that are kind of buried And the idea of their lives and so I've always been and interested in things with the, like peeking behind the curtain.

1:30:42And it's probably my father. I think it's also getting back to closer to authenticity and the truth, not just the surface narrative that's presented, but the real story is much more interesting. Yeah, yeah, and I saw that reflected in myself keeping a secret and feeling like I'm kind of that And my father, who I've knew about his secrets early on and seeing how he was received in the world and weighing that against the things that I knew. So always like obsession with secrets and lives like that. So being obsessed with JFK means that I'm watching the Oliver Stone documentary. And then my boyfriend buys me the book on the Lee Harvey Oswald Frank Delio.

1:31:36It's a Frank Delio. And things out. No, I can't remember. The Delio book on, oh, I haven't read yet. And there's a documentary called Primary that follows J .F .K. through the Wisconsin primaries. And it's just incredible. And so I'm watching that. And I'm just like just, then I go to Ireland, you know, and I stay in the hotel that he stayed in Ireland and, you know, just feeling real connected to him. And that may play out when I was with you in Italy, I was Julius Caesar. Well, I was just obsessed with Caesar and reading things, Caesar and reading things Michelangelo too and like obsessed with these people and that kind of leads me there.

1:32:24like leads me to Rome and I just find these obsessions. And so obsessions like that kind of play out in my life and art around those things. Someone recommends a movie or someone recommend, like I'm constantly obsessed with Jesus Christ. So that could mean the Bible or Scorsese and Willum Default. You know, just, just, give or see bad boy, Bubby. You recommend that. Did you watch it? That boy, Bubby is incredible. The opening of bad boy, Bubby before he leaves the house is terrifying. Terrifying. It's such a feeling. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I remember a friend of mine brought me to see that movie. And in those first five or 10 minutes, whatever it was, I just said to him like, why did you bring me to this?

1:33:15Why am I seeing this? Yes, yes. I don't wanna see this. You can't believe it. You can't believe it. But then what it turns into is so interesting. Yes. What has you? It's telling such an audacious story in such a truthful way, because there's one thing to be audacious and then capturing it absurdly to save it. And that wouldn't have been as effective. This is like, just played out as true. the reality of his life. And that's so interesting. And the movie has you. Have you ever seen Julia DeCarnel's Raw?

1:34:00A bowl is obsessed with that movie. And then I watched it. And yeah, I mean, again, it's a story that could be in less capable hands, which just you'd be able to dismiss it as like, you know, some gruesome tale, but because it's treated so honestly, you know, indelicately, it's just, it's, it's, it's fascinating. I have a hard time watching unpleasant stuff. I kind of want to feel that way. Same, same, same. I like watching. I want to feel peace. But that's why capable hands can take you to unpleasant places. This year you look at Quentin Tarantino. I'm credit it. What makes his, his, his, him brilliant is that he finds these interesting tense moments in, in very unpleasant stories.

1:35:00And you laugh and you feel and you can be carried through. There's grulsiveness and also like a campiness about it that makes it okay. Yeah, a little bit safer. Yeah, it feels like it's done with a wink in some way. Yes. Yes. Which funny, because I wouldn't think I would like that, but I really do win. Well, because he does, I mean, you know, it's balanced, right? Because, and you take like Django. That's such a feat. Like anytime people talk about like what you can and you can't do, I'm like, there is a white man who's so good that he has the funniest slave movie. You know, and like, and it's something that like, you know, a black filmmaker should have made, a black film like should have made Django, right?

1:35:54Because you know, black people are hilarious, but like a lot of times, you know, it's treated so delicately. that, you know, too much respect. It's too much respect. Yeah, it's not. And Jango's hilarious and true and true, like, you know, played so realistically and it's horrible and disgusting conditions. And then moments of levity, moments, who is like, you know, who's that thing on that horse? Or, you know, just these very funny moments. And yeah, yeah, you can do anything. You know, you can do it. Was social media already a thing when you were coming up already doing comedy? It was beginning.

1:36:45It was, I started in the, in the Dane Cook boom. Dane Cook had, you know, made millions. and so that meant that when you signed up for the open mic at the improv, they had a space. I remember you have your name and it would say myspace .com slash for you to fill in your MySpace. This is 2008. And you know, it was always that expectation when I came up. It was the beginning of that. I hadn't met Bo yet, but he was, you know, made his living from YouTube. And there were examples of that happening in comedy was shifting in that way. And honestly, if I waited maybe two years, I might be a different comedian because I might have stayed and I was already making videos with my friends.

1:37:51And it's funny because I see, in some young comedians that make content, maybe for YouTube or Instagram or TikTok, I see myself in things that I made just not for the internet, but just recorded on my camcorder. I'm like, oh yeah, we made sketches like that and in that way and the improvising you have to do when you're at home and your resources are just, your family and your friends and the neighborhood and I might have been a different comedian two years later. Yeah. But I'm glad I came in when I did because I also came up on stages so it is true to me to perform in that way. But yeah, it was big.

1:38:37I kind of rebelled against it because I just, I was like, I'm doing life performance. I just want to make that my thing and I didn't want to service like two masters like if I'm like would be a distraction. Well if I'm filming myself Then let's do it for real like I don't want to just have like I was precious with when the Lafactor through, started a YouTube channel, they would just put comedians videos up there. And I hated that. I used to get mad, I would call the office until like I saw it was getting like good comments or something, I was like, okay, you can keep it up. But I would get mad because I was very precious about it.

1:39:21I was like, if I'm going to film this, then I'm going to film it, I don't wanna have to do it. I don't wanna kinda do it.

1:39:32So, yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't film sets, I didn't post things. I still don't have a website. A friend asked me the other night if I had a website. I was like, oh no, I still don't. And I should. I'm probably, I've taken it probably too far, but I just don't want to service it, so I don't think about it. When you were coming up, did you see any comedians that just blew your mind? Well, my first thought is Angelo Bowers, who was a comedian from Modesto. I was talking about him earlier today. He's a comedian from Modesto who dropped out of college, moved to LA, was young, around my age. And he worked so hard, how hard he worked, inspired me because he did a new set all the time.

1:40:20Sometimes he went bomb and that was as interesting as watching him kill. Like it was because he worked so hard and it was new and you could see that he was trying. And he, I mean, Angela was so strange. I loved it. He would, in LA, he would sit on the subway all day and write jokes in the subway because he didn't have cell phone service down there and he didn't want to be distracted or he would go to the borders on sunset and vine and just work all day. So I started going to the Barnes and Noble at the Grove and we called it our office and we respected each other's office. He would text me if he was going to the Grove.

1:40:58He was like, hey, I'm gonna be at your office today. if you, you know, I wanted to give you your space. Like, and we worked really hard and we became, like a duo in the open mic scene in a way. Like, it was like Gerrida and Angelo. Like, we rose really, really fast because we both worked really, really hard. We dedicated our lives to it. We did nothing else. We had no normal life. Like, you know, I remember mocking a comedian who asked another comedian where a hookah bar was. I was like, what are you doing? You hadn't made it. Like smoking hookah. Oh my God. Like I occasionally went to the movies and Angelo took Saturdays off.

1:41:41So I took Saturdays off too. And I kind of followed his schedule. Tell me about Barnes and Noble is your office, what the experience was like. That was where I would go and read. Yeah, read. And just write, just write. And I was writing more just traditional jokes at the time, but it was being fed by a lot of books. Just things like I would normally read biographies of people I didn't know about or I would go into the self -help section because I would normally mock those things, so I would read it. and magazines and just read things and then write. And it was where you could find me. You know, wake up, go on a walk, hit the barns and go, we'll read, read, read, write, write, go to an open mic and perform.

1:42:38And it became so much my office that my first audition was for this TV show called New Girl on Fox. And I just got managers and they were like, Like you should go on auditions and I figured I'd go to learn, like I'll learn how to audition or whatever. And I was like, but I told them at the beginning, I was like, yeah, I'll do it just for the sake of learning, but I don't want the part. And they said, yeah, yeah, okay, do the audition. I did it. They called me back again. I said, okay, well, look, I'll go to this callback. but for the experience of knowing what a callback is, I don't wanna do this TV show.

1:43:19They say, yeah, yeah, okay, go back. I do it. Now all of a sudden, I'm getting calls from a lawyer. My manager's like, I'm connecting you with this lawyer. He's going over your contract. You have an offer. They're offering me this part for a show. And I'm like, I don't want this. One of the guys I was on the show, Max Reinfield. I know he has to remember this. Like, I turned it down. He came to the Barnes and Noble, we brought this comedian Kevin Christie to Barnes and Noble, and they were having an intervention with me. Like just like at the Barnes and Noble, just being like, hey, what you're doing is crazy, you're turning down like, forget the money.

1:44:01I mean, they were talking more, I'm sleeping on a couch at this point. I'm sleeping on this woman, Lisa's couch. I, they're saying, I mean, maybe like, I could have made half a million dollars or some, some crazy amount. I went from zero dollars to half a million dollars, like by signing. And I just didn't want the part. I didn't see it as part of what I wanted to do. And they're at the bars and I'll be like, you're crazy. You're crazy. I'm like, I know, thank you. But, yeah, they came to my office to try to convince me to do new girl. But I wanted to just sit there and read and write and had an open mic that night.

1:44:41I remember I was starting to get shows. Did the fact that there were other people in the Barnes & Noble was that part of it too? Was it the fact that there were people coming and going or was it just you and people watching? It was definitely some people watching. Always, you know, and that was walking around. LA was such a new experience for me and especially being a southern boy and moving out. It's the first place I lived outside of home. And so everywhere, just walking up in the sunset, walking around Hollywood, that was always my domain, somewhere between Highland and La Siena -Ga, and somewhere between Third Street and Hollywood.

1:45:22It was just all mine. And just walking around and seeing all the, you know, AHS ads and the billboards and the homeless people and the transients and drug addicts and the wildness of those streets just seeing it all played out was so new to me and magical in a way. And a lot of my earlier comedy reflected that, just the things that I was seeing, like, you know, wrote a lot about homeless people because I'm walking amongst them, you know, and I'm kind of homeless myself, and writing a lot about wealth and poverty, and it was aspirational because it was just the reality of my experience. It was every day, just walking.

1:46:12And I walked every, I didn't have a car, and I lay out, it was just walking everywhere, or catching the bus, and just sitting in bookstores, and writing, and that couldn't sustain, look, that was great work ethic, but even that, I needed to live life, experience the the rises and crashes of relationships to even have anything to say and explore even my past to even have something deeper to say. But at that time it served me well. It was it was it was the army. It was college. It was just work, work, work complete focus and dedication. no distractions, they can go home, I just work. What was the difference in the things that you noticed that were different about where you came from versus when you came to LA?

1:47:06The first things you notice of like what's different?

1:47:16It's weird because, you know, So, when I'm from, I lived in Morningside and it was me and people like me and that was it. And being in a small town, you live in these bubbles. My whole existence took place basically in Morningside and we had a black principal and we went to the black dentist and the black pediatrician and lived in this bubble. Would there have been a Barnes and Noble there? No, there was no Barnes and Noble. Would they like tell me what the voice main street? I actually can't even tell you a bookstore. Oh damn, I hate that. I can't tell you a bookstore. But I'm not a bin one in this world now.

1:48:02Yeah, not that I know of. There was, there were libraries and things, but it just wasn't, you know, we really just read the Bible. But it was the things of that neighborhood. There was a food lion. then they built a new food line and there was a family dollar and my grandma lived on Pleasant Street and I lived on the street right off of that marble street and my aunts lived around the corner and you could walk her bike everywhere. I could ride my bike most places in the hood, my school, my elementary school forest park, My grandma was a cafeteria lady there, and so my mom would drop me off at her house in the morning.

1:48:45I'd wake up at five and then we'll go to school with my grandma and like, it was all all in the neighborhood. How many kids in your school? My elementary school was pretty big. I want to say it was around 1 ,000 kids, but it was just all black kids. The black kids, the Mexican kids, I think there was, There's a few white teachers and a couple white students here there. And then my middle school also, like, same thing, just mostly black teachers and black kids. And then my high school was a different world because it was black and white. And it was like 50 -50. And that was like a completely different experience for me.

1:49:28And good or bad? Good. What taught me a lot because I'll tell the really short version of the story. I experienced a different type of freedom than I had before. And I went to this mixed high school in ninth grade, and then in 10th grade, my friends were going to Parkland. High school, it was like the black school and named after the hospital that Kennedy died in. And I went because all my friends were going. And so I went for four days. And it was a crazy four days because I forgot how I was treated. It kind of looked at suspiciously. I remember the things that I hated where there being a chain outside of the cafeteria for no student could cross.

1:50:29and at Glenn, the mixed high school kids just left all the time. We went to Burger King for lunch, we drove around like a hot ride to McDonald's or whatever and you had more freedom. It was kind of like a college campus and here was more like a prison. For do you think it was the age that you were or the fact that it was mixed? I think it was the fact that it was mixed because you know, So it was just more trust, it was just more freedom. I felt that I saw that. I had a truancy offer, so once again, we would sneak to go to Burger King. And you weren't supposed to leave campus, but it was just an understood fact that students did in whatever.

1:51:12And I remember sneaking to my car to go to Burger King, me and some friends, and driving out, and then being cut off by the sheriff's car. The officer got out, this black officer. And he was like, you know why I stopped you? And I was like, I was like, why? Because we go on a Burger King. He was like, nah, he said, you see those white girls over there? They go on a Burger King too. But y 'all look suspicious about it. He's like, y 'all sneak it around in the parking lot. Of course I'm gonna stop you. He's like, if you're gonna go, just go. And so it was like, it was a big lesson learned, but that was a huge thing for me just at Glenn.

1:51:48So that's why I left Parkland after four days. I got my transport after I saw that chain. I was like, oh, no, no, I'm going back to Glinn where I'm free and like, you know, and it was an interesting experiment because it's like have people from my hood in Mornaside and have like, you know, kind of suburban or rural white kids and sometimes I got along, sometimes there were fights and race related fights and but I learned a lot. But I said all that to say that that was my first experience of clashing of cultures and clashing of money and no money. And LA was so much of that. It's so much of a Lamborghini zoom in past, a homeless man.

1:52:31Or my first time downtown, it's just crazy because there's new restaurants, Christmas lights, next to heroin addicts. And it was just wild. and just seeing all of that happening and playing out on the streets. You know, I knew crackheads and I saw violence in my hood, but it was separate from the money, you know, in New York, the same type of craziness, just like wealth and poverty played out next to each other. It was just wild. And so LA was just, you know, it was Disney World. It was just Disney to me. It was all absurd. It was all crazy. It's, you know, um, uh, uh, so I had a lot to write about.

1:53:18Sounds great. Yeah. It was exciting. Very, very exciting. Yeah. I remember the first time I came in LA, um, I think the first time I came in LA was with the Beastie boys and it was really, really fun. Just had a really fun experience. This is fresh from the dorm. This is like a fresh from probably still living in the dorm. Really? Yeah. Super fun. Yeah, super fun. Do you remember your dreams?

1:53:50I always had dreams that I had specific dreams that I knew if I achieved that it meant a whole lot of other things. For instance, I wanted to be Michael Jackson's comedian friend. Like I was like, oh, okay, the way Eddie Murphy was and then Chris Tucker was, I'm gonna be Michael Jackson's comedian friend. Then he died within a year of me moving to LA and I was devastated. I was like, where's my dream? I was part of what, that was one of my, because I knew if I was that, then that probably meant success in so many other ways. And yeah, I had like, I always really specific goals, you know? My first special was a goal.

1:54:39I wanted a special on HBO and I wanted a show on NBC. I remember those being goals. I, you know, a special on HBO because this were the cool people at specials in NBC because it's where Cosby and Seinfeld shows. And it seemed like the right time because I was like, like, oh, okay, it's been a while since they had a comedy, like a really personal specific, you know, interesting comedy on NBC, and I can be the one to do that. And I remember reading that Jerry Seinfeld said that it was his intention to save NBC because he saw that Bill Cosby said it. So I kind of set the same intention. You're in the lineage.

1:55:33Yeah, I felt like, okay, I'll be in that lineage. You know, I knew I could only do it by, you know, bringing some of my light to it and that's how I made the show. And I didn't do it, but it was a goal. I was like, oh, that'll be nice to just, it wasn't to save, but just to make a good show for him, he said, I wanted to make the best show for him. He said, I understand that. Like, I know that in the music world, if you could, you know, see something that you made come out on the same label as Led Zeppelin or Bob Dylan. It's a big deal that you can't believe. It's like, wow, our label's the same.

1:56:12That's so cool. That sense of history. And a responsibility, because again, I do love it. Anything that I do, I've been a student of and a deeply immersed fan of and so like I want it to be as good as the things that are good, you know, and so you feel this responsibility to uphold that, you know. I love hearing you say that. I mean, we have that in common. This desire to make great things at all, whatever it takes, whatever it takes for it to be great. Otherwise, why make it? Why make it? But that's what, that's like going back to like live things in the globes or SNL. It's like, all right, like it's just such a miracle that go live than front of millions of people.

1:57:15Yeah. That's like a chance. You have a chance. When did you get asked to do SNL? I got asked to do SNL. Someone from SNL saw me maybe a couple weeks before filming Rafaño. So I got asked to do it based off they saw like the sets I was doing at. at City Winery. And so that's why I got SNO the night before Rathaneu came out. So I did SNO April 1st, Rathaneu came out April 2nd. Wow. Just based off the sets leading up to it. And I wanted Rathaneu to be its own thing. And so it was like kind of, you know, I didn't want to distract from it, but I wanted to promote it. And so I just wanted to make SNL a unique thing, and rise to the occasion of it.

1:58:18How was the experience? It was good. It was good. The monologue I didn't have until, honestly, I've still worked on it at dress rehearsal. And then did it live, but again, the excitement of live, I kind of needed it for that to even settle. Same thing with the globes. It's playing a spiritual game of musical chairs, testing everything, seeing if it's true, seeing if it's right, sometimes I feel the urge to be chaotic. And I'm like, what is that? I have to question that, I have to question it. And is it have to do with what's going on inside yourself or the environment? What do you, what do you feed, what's the feedback loop?

1:59:03My place and it, where do I belong here? Why am I here? What is the experience for somebody watching it? Even seeing me, like in SNL, like I'm just like, I know this has to be wild because I did SNL. I'm hosting SNL. Coming off of nothing. If you're watching SNL for the middle of the country, you know, I hadn't had a special out in four years. I made some small documentaries, like produce a couple things, but very quiet up until then. And so it's fun to kind of see it as an audience member and go, oh, some people are like, well, who is this? And so I'm kind of explaining myself most. Probably most.

1:59:47Yeah, most of like, you know, that's an exciting position to be in. I know I'm in that position. How do I speak to it? How do I make it, you know, this live experience worthwhile? Just trying to figure that out. and that that takes being live to feel, you kind of have to feel it in that moment.

2:00:13Because otherwise it would be performance. It would be performance. And my performance is the truth of where I am in that moment. That is my performance. So I have to connect with it. Yeah, I remember seeing that I haven't watched SNL for a very long time and I don't find it funny anymore. Yeah, but your monologue was like, whoa, SNL could be good. Because I was a little mad, I was a little angry that I had to even talk about it. That was true. I was just a little... And I was excited to be there. All these things are true. I was excited and felt pushed into it and then wanted to rebel against that.

2:00:58And so it was just not to beat the reference to death, but it is this game of musical chairs that's happening, right up until it's live, no delay. It's so interesting that that tight rope walk aspect of comedy. And I guess it's always that way when you're getting up in front of a bunch of people, strangers. because it's a hectic idea. Yeah, yeah. And I had to over time even re -examine that, my relationship with the audience. So I got people hitting me about Rothaniel, mostly by people who didn't know we were friends. Yeah. And it was like, have you seen this thing? You have to see this thing.

2:01:51This is the greatest thing I've ever seen. like this is it and then I have other friends who are comedians who are just like what is he doing? It's like what is that? That's like that's why would he put that out? You know like just like the so you get to see these like the poles of people who are going in with no expectations being blown away and then the people who have some sense of authority because they're experts in this, seeing it as, well, that's not what we do. Yeah, yeah, which is a response that I got and kinda used to, I think comedians, probably as a community, I don't wanna label all, because I do think I received a lot of love from the community.

2:02:51It took me a while to realize that. But I think it's received with some, you know, quite, it feels like I release Jesus every time.

2:03:05It feels like two comics, I feel like I just kept releasing Jesus and they're like, what is that, or 808 to something that people are just like, what? What? Like every time, which I've learned to take is a good sign. You know, times that it's hurt and hurt my feelings before. But I know that's part of it. If I want to do something different and I know that that's not always just received with just hugs, you know, like, and that's just that's part of it. that's, you know, you kind of have to be hated to be the favorite. It's one of the things I say in the book is that if everybody likes it, you're not going hard enough.

2:03:56Yeah, yeah, it's just not. And I know that and it doesn't mean that it feels any better. It doesn't feel good tonight. The thing that I think I,

2:04:10I got maybe angry with it or the thing that I, if I were to explain anything, because I don't think it should be explained or ever, you know. But I would say that Roth Annual is a feat only because I was really afraid to say the things that I was saying.

2:04:44The danger was in me walking on stage, this is why in Bowl really distilled that in the intro like the walk to the stage is very important in Rathanyu because I had reluctance, I had a lot of fear and it was hard. It was hard and so like I couldn't fake that you know I tried to be brave enough to do it in my own life. I'm not saying like, oh, it's so brave coming out. I was scared. Rather like, you might be scared about something else. Yeah. Like, whatever you were afraid about, I was praying a lot of brotha annual is to my mother. And so, you know, I'm saying the thing, I didn't want to say to the person whose reaction scares me the most.

2:05:46And, you know, I think if it's interesting, it's because of that, as she watched it? Yes. Has she told you, has she said anything? Yes, it's almost like she kind of blocked out the parts of it that, and I get that, because it was hard for me to say it, so I know it must have been hard for her to hear some of it, but the initial call in subsequent calls, largely ignore a lot of the parts about me feeling ignored ironically enough. So, so, so, and, and, and look, it came with consequences like, you know,

2:06:38relationships that are still being repaired because of it. I was just in Dylan's, I'll care a line of talking to my uncle Joe about it and my cousin about it and they saw it and we talk about because his personal is my family and it's me and it's, you know. And so the one thing, you know, that I would say to comedians is that it was very scary to me. And it's like, I could say, I spent my career saying all the dangerous stuff, all the things you can't say about, you know, different races or sexuality, even I've talked about gay people and trans people in my act before, you know, I got booed at the Greek talking about the Me Too movement and its infancy, you know, all the dangerous things, I did all the dangerous things.

2:07:41And that wasn't truly dangerous. I knew that. At least for me, it didn't feel truly dangerous. But there were things in my life that I was afraid to say. The difference is in the other you were touching societal hot buttons. And in this one you're touching personal hot buttons. Oh, that was way scarier. Well, I could say something about the personal hot buttons feel like life and death. Yes, yes, I'm talking To my mother in front of God As far as I'm concerned. Yeah, and HBO and HBO You know God, oh no, but but but it was scary to me That's all I can say about it is that I did a thing that was Frightening I think that's why it's so compelling and and real that the emotion is palpable and it's real and it's not acting and we don't get to see real emotion so often on television.

2:08:58We get to see people acting emotion. Yeah. But we don't get to see real stakes, real personal, whether it's real love or real fear or real anything. It's all facade. It's all performance. It's all fake. And this was not fake. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, I don't know, I've dedicated I've located my life to this. So I have to give all of it. And yeah, it makes the reward, I'll tell you though, because it doesn't, you know, it was funny because it was probably the highest that felt and the lowest that'd been almost at the same time.

2:10:04It's hard. It's hard. I'm so happy for it's success and I'm terrified to talk to my family and still kind of healing those wounds. I'm very happy I made it, but you know, that's the thing with, if you really go there and art. It is life and death and all consuming and it's um the stakes are high. Yeah, the stakes are high. Now there may not be high for everybody, but they're high for you. Well, that's the thing. I also... Doesn't change anyone else's life. Well, also where I was maybe get offended by a comedian, you know, uh, who may have had some negative thing. I'm like, I've never done the same thing as the other comedians anyway.

2:11:06I'm like, like, you know, our differences lie across the board, you know, so I, you know, I think the the attention that it got attracted, a lot of podcast commentary, I guess. But again, I do expect it. I do expect it. I'm not even trying to sound cool about it, but it, because it still isn't the most comfortable thing, but I do it. You wouldn't take it back. No. Oh God, no. That's what I'm saying. It's like, you committed to it. and you're proud that you committed to it. And whatever happens after that, that's out of our control after it. Yeah, and you kinda, you know, I'll just kinda let, you know, time is gonna play things out.

2:12:02How people's reactions usually have more to do with who they are and where they are than anything about what you're saying. Yes. Yes. What you're saying triggers something in them about their life that they have to confront. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think some comedians may have received it as an indictment of their own work. You know, um, I would say after watching that, it would be hard to watch someone sitting on sage telling jokes and take it very seriously.

2:12:47Yeah, I mean, you know, again, it's like, it also, that also, the movie, that could be the movie. Like, even me, like I almost could be inclined to just completely rebel against Rothenium and go, all right, my next one's all one -liners. Yeah, like and like, you know, it's not true to where I'm at or what I find interesting, but it's interesting, but it's an interesting idea. It's an interesting idea. I'm saying, actually, it's like, okay, that was then and now we're going to now maybe some do the totally and I do have to be open to that. I can't absolutely stay in the pocket because I don't want to say and I'm not there.

2:13:27I'm not in the same. I was in a really low place when I made Rathanya and it was trying to see light or make something of it. I'm not in that space anymore and if I recorded a special tomorrow, it would be totally different already. And so I have to be true to that. And I still enjoy, you know, if done great, you know, I can enjoy a joke as much as the next guy. You know, I still love a good joke. I still tell some jokes. I tell some jokes at the Globes, you know, some people are fine. All of them very funny, but I still ask them. Tell me what was some of the Globes jokes. All the Globes jokes, I mean, I had things that were,

2:14:18I said, they asked me, they came to my dressing room and ask me to shout out the hotel, they wanted me to, you have to say something about the Beverly Hilton. So I went on stage and said, hi everybody, you want me to shout out the hotel. So here we are live from the place that Kill Whitney Houston. That's funny, that's funny to me. It's like, do you not think of the Beverly Hilton as the hotel to kill Whitney Houston? Like just a first thing, I think of, as soon as I walk in the building, I'm like, what's the room number? I wanna see it. I'm infatuated with it. And so I thought that was funny.

2:15:01The audience didn't really respond to that. So they groaned, you know, but that makes it worthwhile a little bit. That's me being a real comedian. I did a, I should say it because I don't wanna say it now, so that means it's something there. But like the, you know, I did a little joke about Will because it's like the first major award show since the Oscars. So, you know, obviously I have to chime in on it and I didn't want to do it in the monologue. So I did a little joke through the ceremony there that got some groans and I, I, yeah, it's, you know, I did jokes that I written that I thought were funny.

2:15:46I'm like, oh, this is funny. And it was the occasion for it. And then I said it and I did my little provocative jokes, but it's not the same as the monologue. The monologue meant something to me and the jokes. I didn't have to tell. I didn't need to tell him but the situation's called for it. If it asked you back, would you do it again?

2:16:09My friend Ari said that I should say yes. And he always has a... No, no, no, no. He says that about like if they asked me to do like the Oscars, he's like, you should do it. You know, just, but I don't think I would do the globes again because I did it and the same reason I couldn't see myself doing SNL again, because I did it and I really did it. You know, like I really gave it my all. Like there's no, yeah, there's no mountain to climb. No, no, no, there's no reason. And I came at a really unique time and I spoke about it in the most honest way that I could and it's over. I wouldn't want to do it again.

2:17:02And there could be, I only pause because yeah, it depends on where I'm at. Like I never know. It could be something pressing and it could be like it was last year where there's a to be comfortable with things that make me motivated to do it, but just to do it again, no, I wouldn't want to.

2:17:24Anything else you feel like we missed? I don't know. I feel like we, I feel like we talk. I feel like we sound like us, not on the podcast. That feels good. Yeah, normal conversation. Who's the music in your house growing up? A lot of gospel. my mom, my mom, for the most part only listening to gospel with some Whitney Houston sprinkled in and maybe some Milton John. My dad listened to the radio a lot growing up so it was a lot of that. And then I remember

2:18:03were two huge things were like an eighth grade, I'd discovered Stevie Wonder, game -changing, got the at the close of the century box set and just listened to all of those and was like, oh, oh, he's got, like having that. And a brother who introduced me to Jay -Z, I have a big brother who's eight years older to me and he had great taste. So I had great taste by proxy and he's the guy you want to introduce you to an artist because it's how I play Jay Z for my boyfriend. It's like what a lot of pauses. Like did you hear what he said? Did you talk it out? And Jay Z is so conversational and so that we kind of, we, you know, we memorize all of his lyrics and kind of speak in Jay -Z.

2:18:59There's always a verse for everything. And, and Joe loved, he bought the priority records reasonable dealt. Remember, he had that cassette with the original dead presidents and like, I just loved him. In North Carolina, you know, and at a time when everyone was on cash money and no limit and you know, the South had its own thing. Joe was just like such a big J -fan and it influenced me hugely, hugely. When I finally got to introduce my brother to J -J, it was like, thank you. He said thank you to my brother, which Jay so smart. He knows how to make a moment. Everyone will remember forever. And he said, said thank you for him, you know, like in his dressing room before a show.

2:19:59And Jay's just being so witty and so important to me and my view of the world, I learned so much about the world. The authenticity in what he's saying, it's unbelievable. Well, he's a big influence in that way, in the way that Jay's whole thing is, and I'm not lying, like all my rhymes are true, and they are. And there's, you know, he takes his liberties in storytelling here and there, but the reason and so it's 4444 and Jay had his best, it makes his real life feel like an epic. He's so good at telling us, and it is. He finds really epic about it and he extracts that and is so good at telling the truth and I wanna be really good at telling the truth.

2:21:02And he talks about things that he's not proud of. Yes. And you can hear him talk about how he got to be in that position and the regret. And regret. Well, songs like regret. And things that he regrets and things that aren't. Bo and I had this rule when making Roth Annual is like the only way that this can stand a chance at being cool is if I don't try to be cool at all. I just couldn't try to be cool. My friend Lionel says that about Jay -Z. Actually, he says that like any messed up with Jay is that he's so naturally cool. If he tries, it's not cool. Jay can't try to be cool because he just is cool.

2:21:56So he has to just be. And I learned that trying to be cool was, I mean, just horrible for me. It's horrible for anybody. But especially in a situation where I felt vulnerable, it's easy to want a lean on masculinity and bragging and a certain harshness to feel safe, it's armor, or jokes, but it's a comedian. Like, this joke is how I'll stand behind this joke. But that was me trying to be cool, it was me swagging out. I had to get rid of that. And, you know, Jay at his best is saying some uncool things. He was an emotional rapper, you know, you know, at a time where that wasn't... the coolest thing you could know absolutely great talking to you always great talking to you to be continued yes always good yeah yeah there'll be so much I still have to tell you about my dad it's a lot yeah I'm figuring it out